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What are we going to do about UKIP?

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What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivan on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:57 pm

Cameron tried calling it names and then pandering to its demands, giving it credibility. Labour tried ignoring it. Unfortunately, the BBC has gone out of its way to give it the oxygen of publicity. UKIP can no longer be laughed at or ignored, but in order to challenge it, it’s necessary to analyse what makes it attractive to so many people.

I would suggest that people vote for UKIP for one or more of the following reasons:-

1. Alienation
There are plenty of exceptions of course, but the typical UKIP supporters are white, male, elderly and of lower than average intelligence who parrot tripe such as “Farage will give us our country back” (whatever that means). They hold socially conservative views and find ideas such as equal marriage abhorrent. They see themselves as ignored, unfulfilled, not represented by anyone, especially since Old Labour became New Labour for the sake of political expediency. They look for scapegoats to blame for what are often their own inadequacies, and the tabloid papers, whose owners are frightened of being regulated from Brussels, have happily drip-fed them lies and half-truths about immigrants which can’t be resolved without withdrawal from the EU. Hitler blamed the League of Nations when he wanted some of his country back, and Jews when he needed a scapegoat for all of Germany’s ills; UKIP offers the EU and immigrants as its primary scapegoats.

2. A protest vote
Ever since Orpington in 1962, it has been commonplace for voters to use by-elections to give the government a kicking, and until recently it’s usually been the Liberal Democrats (and their predecessors in title, the Liberals and the SDP) who have mopped up this protest vote. Once the so-called ‘coalition’ was formed in 2010, the Liberal Democrats have ceased to be the party of protest and that left an opening for UKIP. (Interestingly though, it was George Galloway who took a seat off Labour in 2012, not something which UKIP has yet achieved.)

3. A charismatic leader
I can’t see it myself, but Nigel Farage is up there with Boris Johnson (and followed by Alex Salmond) as the most popular politicians around. Serious politicians are held in such low esteem these days that a pub bore is seen as preferable.

4. Anger with the established parties
Labour, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats have all been in power in recent years. We had the expenses scandal which hasn’t gone away, MPs are still milking the system with outrageous claims. (Of course UKIP is doing the same in the EU Parliament, and often not even bothering to turn up for work.) While the Labour Party was spending four months electing a new leader, the Tories were successfully spreading one of the biggest ever lies in UK politics, namely that Labour was responsible for the global credit crunch of 2008-9. The Liberal Democrats betrayed all those voters who thought they were a left-of-centre party. Meanwhile, the Tories have been out of touch, cruel and corrupt, yet for some of their followers they haven’t been right-wing enough.

5. Publicity
It’s a scandal that should be investigated: why has the BBC given so much airtime to UKIP, and to Farage in particular (26 appearances on ‘Question Time’ for a start), when it won only 3.2% of the votes in the last general election? Until a recycled Tory MP won the Clacton by-election, UKIP had no MPs. Why, for example, has it been given so much more coverage than the Green Party (one MP) and the Respect Party (one MP)?

6. Xenophobia
The distrust and fear of strangers or foreigners is nothing new, it’s probably existed since man first set foot on this planet. Like most fears, it’s irrational, but it can be easily milked by a right-wing populist party like UKIP. Yes, there is also a fear of the religions which these foreigners may bring to the country, especially with regard to Muslims, in view of the atrocities which have been committed in the name of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims in the UK are simply peace-loving people who want to get on with their lives just like the rest of us. However, to stop, or at least seriously curtail, immigration is a vote-winner on the right. In times of insecurity and anxiety, there will always be a niche for the kind of narrow, fear-driven politics of Farage.

So we know why people vote for UKIP, but the much harder question is how to respond? The UKIP supporters who I’ve tried to engage with on Twitter are oblivious to historical analogies or to any evidence that UKIP is just a right-wing extension of the Tory Party; they show an almost religious conviction that they are right and nothing will change their views. They don’t care if Farage complains about ‘the corrupt Westminster elite’ but then claims £2 million in EU expenses over ten years just to donate it to his party. They don’t care if UKIP deputy leader Paul Nuttall wrote in favour of NHS privatisation and then deleted the offending article – but not before many of us had copied it. They don’t care if Farage has said that employers should be able to hire and fire at will and pay whatever they like, meaning that UKIP would scrap the minimum wage. They are, to use a well-worn expression, turkeys voting for an early Christmas.

I don’t think anything can be done to stop the UKIP advance before the general election. Labour is powerless to act and the Tories are frightened to offend UKIP in case doing so results in more defections. However, it’s likely that Labour will head either a majority or minority administration after 7 May next year. That Labour government must, in my opinion, do a number of things to tackle both UKIP and also the causes of UKIP:-

1. Bring in a living wage
Those tempted to support UKIP can hardly complain that immigrants are forcing down their wages if the law sets a much higher minimum rate of pay.

2. A massive house building programme
This has already been promised by Labour and would start to rectify the slow house build under the last Labour government and begin to offset the devastating effect on our housing stock resulting from ‘Right To Buy’. An adequate housing stock would prevent UKIP sympathisers from whingeing about immigrants - rather than Tory policies - preventing them from getting a home of their own.

3. Promote the EU
Stand firmly against a wasteful and unnecessary referendum on our membership of the EU, which would only cause business uncertainty. Our participation in the biggest single market the world has ever seen has numerous advantages, but Labour politicians in particular seem coy to state them. To his credit, Nick Clegg tried to do that before the EU elections in May, but maybe he is too toxic a figure to gain people's attention.

4. Have a sensible debate about immigration
After the enlargement of the EU in 2004, some places in Britain (I believe Southampton was one of them) were suddenly overwhelmed with large numbers of immigrants, which put a strain on services such as schools, GP surgeries, hospitals and social housing. That’s just the sort of situation which inflames xenophobia and lessons must be learned from it. At the same time, the benefits to this country from immigrants, not just in the caring services but to the economy (overall they are net contributors), should be explained and repeated again and again.

5. Restore honesty and integrity in politics
We’ve come a long way since John Profumo had to resign from the government in 1963 for lying to Parliament. Cameron does it all the time, while Jeremy Hunt should have been kicked out long ago, and so should Iain Duncan Smith. Ed Miliband is a decent and honourable man who must demand the same standards from those who form his first cabinet in May next year. If trust can be restored in Westminster politicians, the need for swivel-eyed, right-wing politicians in parties such as UKIP might start to dissipate.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by boatlady on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:29 am

Can't argue with any of that Ivan - I would maybe add that parliament itself needs to become much more representative - at present, it seems -still - to be mainly a boy's club for graduates of public schools and the Oxbridge universities - I would like to see some sort of provision in place requiring MPs to present a CV showing work experience in fields that are not connected to politics before they can be selected.

Career politicians do not understand the concerns and fears of ordinary people - and this is one of the things that gives the 'pub bores' such traction with the electorate
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:29 am

A typically thorough and well-argued piece, Ivan which expertly captures and analyses the issues.

The ground has been perfect for a really effective leader to emerge and destroy the myths of UKIP and to attack the obvious and painful cruelty of their cousins in hate, the Tories. This is precisely where Ed Milband has failed the decent element of the nation's voters. He and his party have had the material, the ammunition and the opportunity for a field day of spelling out to us all the toxicity of the Coalition and what alternatives exist, but he has failed to capture hearts and minds or even to mount a convincing attack upon the Cameron Fortress ( even if it is patched up with a few Clegg lightweight breeze-blocks).

His failure can't all be blamed on the written media and the BBC although it may make life more difficult for him. He needed to make more inroads and to be more imaginative with the scope he has had for shining a light in the dark places of Tory-dominated Britain. Alas, he's failed - and a large number of people will continue to pay a very heavy price.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Redflag on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:28 am

Ukip & the Tories are closer than cousins PH more like brother & sister in truth you can hardly get a fag paper between them ands there policies, plus they are taking off there web page the nasty policies like they one to get rid of the NHS as we know it "Free at the Point of Need". I think we have another Clegg on our hands with Ukip they will say and do anything to get into the HOC then forget every promise they ever made to there voters.
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WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT UKIP?

Post by David Head on Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:02 pm

I can't argue with your perceptive analysis, Ivan. However, my first response to the question "What are we going to do about UKIP?" is to quote Corporal Jones by saying "don't panic".

These are heady days for UKIP, but if one looks beneath the froth of one by-election triumph (involving re-electing a recycled sitting MP) and hyperbolic media coverage, one is reminded that UKIP doesn't address most of the main concerns of voters. Europe isn't one of these, and I agree with you that it is in the country's interest not to be distracted by an in/out referendum in the coming years. This is the period for tackling the things that regularly feature high in the list of voters' priorities: the economy, health, housing and education. Of course, immigration is in there somewhere, but I'm convinced it is a localized issue (your example of Southampton is a telling one, as are voting patterns supposedly UKIP-friendly Lincolnshire, where UKIP does well only in areas of high migrant concentration on the periphery of the county, but didn't win a single seat on the council in Lincoln in the latest local elections.

For me, therefore, doing something about UKIP involves communicating proposed solutions to the things that voters are most concerned about in a clear and cohesive way. This is where Labour comes in, because it should be the only party capable of forming an alternative government in 2015, whether or not in a coalition. Here I must agree with Phil Hornby. Labour is failing to communicate effectively why it should be the party of preference for voters. I scratch my head as to why this is the case. I can't help imagining the circle around Ed Miliband as being like the entourage "assisting" Selina Meyer in "Veep", i.e. advisers who are essentially reactive and constantly in a spin. Something or someone has to calm Labour down and assert authority, then start hammering home the policies the party feels will be good for the UK. As things stand, I don't see this happening.

It mustn't be overlooked that UKIP's main strength is voter apathy and low turnouts. In the Euro elections, only a third of a third of the electorate voted UKIP, as Ken Clarke rightly reminded listeners to the Radio 4 Today programme. The key to preventing it turning this underwhelming "triumph" into a stronger foothold in parliament has to be engaging the kind of voter that tipped the balance in the Scottish referendum: the don't knows, the quiet ones who don't like to say how they are going to vote or who are too afraid to say so, and young voters (who south of the Border may have been conned by the siren song of the execrable "don't vote" advocate Russell Brand).

The question remains as to who will engage with these voters. I think you are right to give credit to Nick Clegg for taking on Farage. As his efforts showed, this is a risky business, but both the Lib Dems and Labour need to field with great frequency their best communicators in the coming months, not to get at UKIP, which exaggerates its importance, but to convey what they stand for and have to offer. Ed Miliband falls short in this regard. He pops up too infrequently, and his message is too fragmented. But both parties have people who can communicate and who are telegenic, but who may be in a state of suspension simply because someone doesn't wish them to steal the respective leader's limelight. The emphasis now must be on policies, policies, policies that address voters' primary concerns, without being deflected by the Farage circus.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:51 pm

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." 1 Corinthians 13:1

UKIP in a nutshell. A lot of heat and noise disguising a simple appeal to basic fears without very much substance. The only card they haven't yet played is Ebola, but give 'em time.

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivan on Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:12 pm

David Head wrote:-
…..my first response to the question "What are we going to do about UKIP?" is to quote Corporal Jones by saying "don't panic".
What a coincidence! Jonathan Freedland has suggested that Farage is “the Captain Mainwaring of our time”:-

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Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this discussion. You are right to point out how UKIP thrives on low turnouts and hopefully that will see it recede in the general election, and I agree that attacking UKIP only exaggerates its importance. It has to be all about having the courage of your convictions. However much I detested the views of Margaret Thatcher, she wasn’t backward in coming forward to express them. If the EU and immigration are ‘good’, then Labour politicians in particular need to stand up and say so and say why.

I see that the Fabians have produced a document saying how they think Labour should respond to the UKIP menace:-

Labour should stress a combination of cost of living issues (energy price freeze, increasing the minimum wage, capping rent increases) with policies that speak to UKIP considerers core anxieties (such as the introduction by some Labour councils of residency requirements for council house waiting lists and curbs on welfare payments to families who live overseas). Beyond this, Labour should consider promoting more contribution in welfare, ring fence a large number of its proposed 200,000 new homes for local people and switch from EU free movement of labour, to fair movement of labour.”

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Now Diane Abbott has added her ideas on the way forward for Labour, saying that “choosing to fight the 2015 general election on a UKIP agenda will not work” (as Cameron has already shown):-

How Labour can prevent core voters defecting to UKIP

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by keenobserver1 on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:25 pm

Nationalism is a dangerous thing, not to be confused with patriotism, I do believe Ivan posted a link to “Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism” on an alternate thread which addresses the issue in a much more eloquent manner than I ever will.

Whether we agree or disagree with the air time that the BBC devotes to the current endeavours of UKIP are essentially irrelevant . If it’s an Oswald Moseley, a Nick Griffin or a Nigel Farage they should be put under the microscope for a thorough examination by all. It shouldn’t take long before the latter  thoroughly exposes their views and lack of depth in a similar vein to the former two, possibly in a more sensational manner. So currently I think we should bear with the BBC on this as it may prove in the long run to be a bit of responsible unbiased journalism when they give the same level of publicity to the guaranteed UKIP meltdown.....which will come, it’s only a matter of time.

On Ivan’s points –
Alienation – who else represents this section of our society. Previously they would have been supported by Labour but circa ’97 they went on a new  path and many of the core voters were left behind. The cannon fodder of the 80’s will now be 50 and over, they are asking ?’What were we fighting for? Why did we strike and let our families go without?” Who is taking up this vacuum?

Protest Vote – If it is a protest vote, then nothing to worry about, come May normal service will be resumed. I remember the BNP winning a seat in Tower Hamlets( not sure if it was only a council election) and this was called a protest vote.
What if it isn’t? Are the public now being swayed by somebody telling them what they want to hear, and giving them a perceived enemy to blame for everything from why the train is late to why they didn’t get a wage rise.

Charismatic Leader – You have to give him that one – Miliband, Clegg and Cameron just don’t have the same public appeal, and politics is style over substance nowadays.
Although we need to remember Farage is no Statesman, remember the Belgian Chap?

Promote The EU – Business, small and large needs to get above the parapet on this and start letting the public know where the money that pays the bills is coming from. Trade and export are vitally important to us in a global marketplace, isolationist policies will make austerity  feel  like we all got a wage rise!

Have a Sensible Debate on Immigration – good luck on that one.

Restore Honesty and Integrity in Politics – generally people who act with honesty and integrity don’t go in to politics. Those who do soon have their values either diluted or eroded by following the party line, or remain as an independent or join a small party that carries no weight in parliament – who was the last MP not connected to any major party that made a difference in the House of Commons?

Although UKIP may be a worry at present for the three main parties, Labour have other Nationalists to worry about. Following the recent referendum in Scotland the SNP membership has swelled to circa 80k with the Scottish Socialists and Greens getting behind them in a pact to punish the Unionist Parties. This will undoubtedly do most damage to Labour, the Conservatives risk a single seat and the Liberal Democrats are going for a national wipe out. In all probability the SNP will pick up a lot of seats in May, and it will be Labour that forfeit them.

If the Labour Party don’t wake up soon, then it will be eternity in opposition.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:19 pm

QUOTE: "If the Labour Party don’t wake up soon, then it will be eternity in opposition."

A path well trodden this autumn, but there is also a cliché which runs, Everything comes to he who waits. For once I think Cameron may be right, when he says, "Vote UKIP - get Labour".

When the tide is flowing towards you, why splash about making unnecessary waves?


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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by boatlady on Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:50 am

I wonder, though, if Milliband should be finding a way to challenge the Kippers' current boast that they are just like the Fabians?

That's just a bit offensive to those of us who try to be a little bit intellectually honest
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Redflag on Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:21 pm

The Labour party need to do something to take the wind out of the sails of Ukip, otherwise we could end up with a Tory/Ukip coalition (Heaven Help usif that happens) boatlady. It does not bare thinking about if we thought the last 4yrs where bad the next 5yrs would be DIRE.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:33 pm

QUOTE: "....the Kippers' current boast...."

Which, judging by previous UKIP "form" will remain current only until they think up something different to say.

Any Tory or Labour researcher will already have a dossier upon Farago's changes of tack during the past twelve months. He really is making it up as he goes along.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Redflag on Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:32 pm

I agree OW did you happen to remember Ukips 2010 Manifesto, two things I remember about it 1) 31p flat rate of tax for those earning over £10,000 so it is a lot lower than the Tories 2) privatise OUR NHS this came from Farages sidekick Nuttall.

I just wonder how long it is going to take the people of the UK to wake up to Farages BLATANT LIES, tho I do feel sorry for the people that believe and hang onto his every word he says, all he is doing is saying whatever people want to hear just so he can get a seat in the HOC. So no different to any other Tory MP who got into the HOC in 2010 by spinning an untrue tale just how untrue we will not be found out until people start asking questions.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by boatlady on Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:13 pm

Actually, OW - maybe you're right at that - they do seem to change tack very frequently - almost as if they have an agenda somewhere but shy to reveal it until they have enough votes and power to ignore public opinion - a bit like the Tories did.

Perhaps in fact all the shambolic local councillors and outrageous comments are just a cover for some really nasty Nazi-type planning behind the scenes?

Or maybe it's just a bit past my bedtime and I'm getting  bit paranoid?
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:23 pm

Unmistakeably, UKIP has been a one-man-band.  Farage is a formidable and charismatic personality who is milking it for all it's worth, but as "real" MPs join the party it will be interesting to see whether Nigel can share leadership and admit alternative policies.  

My feeling is that he won't be able to.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivan on Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:17 am

keenobserver1. Thank you for taking the trouble to respond to all the points in my opening post. Yes, in a nutshell patriotism is the love for one’s country, while nationalism is a feeling of superiority over other countries, and we have discussed that on another thread:-

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You’re right in saying that Farage is no statesman, as he showed in the EU Parliament with this gratuitous attack on Herman Van Rompuy:-


Source: YouTube

The editorial in ‘The Guardian’ on 10 October supports the view that it’s better to fight UKIP than to copy it:-

The party has thrived through unvarnished bluster, which strikes an authentic note in an age of spin, yet conceals chaotic policies which could easily be ripped apart. While Mr Farage undoubtedly speaks for a minority, more voters tell pollsters they dislike UKIP than any other party. His latest remarks about HIV follows a prejudiced assault on Romanians and his calls to entrust the NHS to businessmen. His obsessions are not those of Middle England. After his win, others must muster the courage to take him on in his own plain-speaking style.”

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Yvette Cooper has taken a similar stance:-

Our answer isn't to imitate UKIP; it must be to take them and the Tories on. And, yes, we do need to talk much more about immigration. Some people think it is right wing to talk about immigration or to want any reform. That's nonsense. The free market right wants a wide, open border in the interests of cheap labour, while the reactionary right wants to build a wall to keep the world out. A Labour government would introduce a system of ‘fair movement, not free movement’, with stronger border controls and a crackdown on the exploitation and low pay of migrant workers.

But we can't win the argument if we don't talk about the problems people have or if we're not prepared to take UKIP and the Tories on – be it on jobs, insecurity, immigration, our NHS, reforming failing politics or giving people more power over their lives and communities
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I don’t agree that Labour could be facing “an eternity in opposition”. Although the turnout was low in Heywood and Middleton, and the majority was therefore much smaller, Labour’s share of the vote increased marginally, while the Tory and Lib Dem votes collapsed. Even so, the media has done its best to spin the result as some sort of crisis for Labour, while the fact is that with the loss of Clacton, the Tories are in much more trouble. Michael Dugher MP comments:-

Cameron didn't just lose in Clacton - he suffered a humiliating defeat. The Tories fell apart quicker than a UKIP policy announcement. And it wasn't for lack of trying. At least 10 members of the cabinet went campaigning in Clacton. Just a week after Cameron confidently predicted "we are taking this election very seriously - we can win this", he got his backside kicked.

Just as importantly, he lost after he'd played his biggest anti-UKIP cards: his EU referendum pledge; the promise to scrap the Human Rights Act; the unfunded tax cuts (from a man who once said "you can’t talk about tax reduction unless you can show how it is paid for, the public aren’t stupid"); the squeeze on working age benefits for three million working people, whilst keeping his donors happy with his tax cut for millionaires.

The Tory defeat to UKIP in Clacton follows defeats to Labour in the local elections in May in the battleground seats that will decide the general election next year: a list that includes places like Amber Valley, Croydon, Carlisle, Weaver Vale, Lincoln and Ipswich. Also on that list is Crawley where, in an important council by-election which was perhaps overshadowed by events elsewhere, Labour won back a seat from a Conservative councillor who had defected to UKIP
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Redflag on Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:07 am

On Friday while being interviewed Farage said there would be no coalition with the Tories, surprise surprise today Monday 13/10/2014 he has changed his tune the headline in todays papers is "I'll Keep Tories in Power to get EU Poll next Year".

I just hope this proves to the people of the UK that are voting for Ukip "Wake up With Cameron" on the 8th May 2015, Farage cant keep his word for 48 hours I doubt if he can hold his water for two seconds.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:50 pm

What are we going to do about UKIP?  Nothing, if Ashcroft's figures today mean anything.

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by keenobserver1 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:16 pm

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How would it alter Ashcroft's poll if say 50% of the Scottish seats went to "Others" rather than any of the main three?

1 Seat from the Tories - no impact.....20 Seats from Labour?


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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by methought on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:09 pm

New Scientist recently had an article on national identity. Simply put it requires a group of 56,000 people or more, within a geographically defined location, with cultural norms and a shared language. Switzerland has many different cantons separated geographically. Eastern Europe has pockets of different groups left from successive waves of invasion and migration. Britain has never before questions its boundaries because it is an island. The Celtic fringe nations of Scotland, Wales and Ireland have their own identities which differ politically and linguistically arising out of a slightly different heritage, but on the whole incomers have increased the sum of the country's culture without damaging its sense as a national identity.

The world is much more fluidly open now and as Ivan so succinctly states above, the need now is for the UK to place its values of fair play and decency at the top of the national agenda. Wake up Labour and get out there to make sure 'decent working people' know that their values will benefit them, their children and their children's children.

Our country is being sold from under our feet - literally in the case of fracking - and economics are central to defining a way back to community values and a sense of us and us, not us and them.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:10 pm

In the 1940 "Battle of Britain", Spitfire pilots jousted with Messerschmitts in an aerial version of King Arthur's court mano a mano superseded by air-to-air missiles countered by artificial alternative targets.

That's UKIP. An alternative artificial target launched to distract the Electorate from the really dangerous Tory planners.

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivan on Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:31 pm

Here is another article which offers some clues as to why anyone can possibly attracted to a very nasty party like UKIP.

Why is there so much hostility to immigrants in the UK?

Extracts from an article by Richard Seymour:-

"Polling shows that most people have a negative opinion of immigration, despite them not having any negative experience of it. In fact, people in areas with most immigrants are least likely to express anti-immigrant sentiment. Popular hostility toward immigrants is determined by the perceived big picture, which polling data also shows most people get badly wrong. The fact that people greatly overestimate the proportion of immigrants who are asylum seekers, for instance, matters largely because of the culture of suspicion and disbelief about refugees.

People are convinced that immigrants have taken something from them. Social resentment of this kind is integral to the competitive ethos of neoliberalism: given a vicious struggle for scarce resources, there is tremendous paranoia about ‘undeserving’ people getting things unfairly.

Immigrants have been continually identified as undeserving leeches, a security menace, an existential threat to British values – and thus a fitting target of resentment. Research suggests that those most prone to a resentful nationalism are those sectors of the working and middle classes who have been on a downward trajectory for decades. Their Britain, as they see it, no longer exists. And they link the class injuries inflicted by de-industrialisation, underinvestment and precarity to the decline of Britain’s global position in the post-colonial world, and the loss of their old sense of racial and national superiority
."

For the whole article:-
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:07 pm

IMHO the shire tories will quietly envelope UKIP in their warm embrace, displacing Farrage, if it begins to look like having prospects of real success in the next election.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivan on Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:52 pm

After the by-elections: the political leadership we need now

From an article by Neal Lawson:-

Most people don’t vote UKIP for any other reason than they hate and despise mainstream politicians. They don’t think UKIP have any answers but they don’t care. They just want to stick two fingers up to Miliband, Clegg and Cameron. Come May, UKIP will find it difficult to win seats as their resources are spread thinly but that doesn’t mean the underlying issues go away. Below the water, discontent and alienation fester.

So what do we do? We need a politics that totally addresses the social and economic alienation that people feel. We need good jobs, fair pay, investment in affordable homes for all, an adequate social safety net and public services that are there for us when we need them. We need politicians that listen and political parties that are driven by their members.

But we also need leadership that says “we understand you feel powerless and anxious but this is not the fault of people in your community or in your country that are different from you”. This is about bankers not Bulgarians. We need leadership that says that our common humanity is what makes us and our country special.

The Tories, as they pander to UKIP, are now gung ho in their determination to rid us of the Human Rights Act. Democracy is the means by which we help ensure equality, participation and knit our multicultural society together. But democracy has to be underpinned by a basic and essential framework of Human Rights. It’s why we need a legal foundation to underpin our common humanity.


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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:23 pm

Perhaps the standard Voting Form should have a specific box to tick as a simple Protest Vote.
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The rise in UKIP and UKIP support greatly disturbs me.....

Post by Ivanhoe on Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:17 pm

I don’t know what the UKIP stand for other than pulling away from Europe, yet we aren’t truly in Europe, we share nothing of their Social or economic culture, we are just on the fringes of Europe, we have no real decision making power in Europe, and pulling the drawbridge up re- immigration, and cracking down on immigration seems to be their only policy.    I can understand why some people believe the UKIP are racist.  But I don’t think the UKIP are racist.  I believe they seek power for the sake of power, and at any cost.  

Also I have to add that i’m sick of hearing that Brussels rule us, they don’t.  “We” rule us.  

A Free market agenda to dissolve the State and everything attached to it, has been running Britain for decades.

It began with Margaret Thatcher in the 1980’s.  Our privatisations, including railway privatisation, our expensive housing, our low income tax, our unjust and unfair local taxation, have all been due to the political agenda of the Tory right wing since Margaret Thatcher in the 1980’s, nothing to do with Brussels.

So stopping immigration to this country isn’t going to cure our ills.  Only the British standing together for their own rights can do this, which we haven’t done for decades, hence all the ills of our country now.  We are a social and economically divided nation.  There is largely no solidarity today among 60 million British people.

The UKIP in my view are clearly and obviously using the immigration ticket to get votes next year, and judging by their media coverage they are not only getting votes, they are also basking in the delight of anti European Tory’s defecting over to them.  Which begs the question why is Cameron as a right Tory, prepared to fund millions into Social Europe per  day ?, my views are these.

David Cameron is wanting Europe to ditch its long held Social model funded via the EU State re- Gross National Product, and to adopt our Anglo Saxon deregulated free market model..It is then in my view that David Cameron will want to take charge, this is the great British ego at work, but this is only my opinion.  We once had an Empire, remember ?

My other view is that while we are connected to Europe Cameron can blame Europe for the unemployment in Britain, because we don’t invest into our selves anymore, we are a market lead economy.

The UKIP, like the Tory's,  are a right wing, small State, low income tax party, which is what we have had since 1980 over 30 years ago.  Hence privatisation of our vital services including the NHS.  UKIP leader Nigel Farage is himself an admirer of Margaret Thatcher..A small point, but in my view a worthy and valid one.

I want to know what the UKIP’s full manifesto is ?

I want to know if they will re- industrialise Britain ?  I want to know if the UKIP will return Britain to being industry and manufacturing lead with decent minimum wages, security in work, and fair taxation. ? Dare I say, just like they have in Western Europe.

Are the UKIP going to take Britain away from being simply a market lead, low waged, low income tax, insecure, short term economy, which treats its vulnerable like garbage, there is no other word for it. and where our young people cannot possible have a future ?.  

We pay around £60 million a day into the EU as our membership, Germany pay more as the leading country in Europe.  But Germany, France ect are fully in Europe, we aren’t, we are on the fringes unable to take part in any decision making worth a light.  Britain remains on the outside of Europe looking in.

If the UKIP were to win Government next year, would they use those millions to invest into our vital public services ?, including re-nationalising the NHS, and the railways ?.  

During Tory PM John Major’s term of office, Mr Major privatised the railways in 1992 at a cost of £400 billion a year, whereas nationalisation prior to 1992 cost £100 billion a year, so it’s cheaper on British tax payers to re- nationalise the railways.  All our vital public utilities, gas, water, and electricity, were privatised under Margaret Thatcher in the 1980’s, would the UKIP bring these vital public services back into public ownership. ?

Also would the UKIP increase the basic State pension, and re-link it directly to British prosperity care of male average earnings or inflation, whichever the higher ?, making no need to means test our elderly people for what many see as humiliating State handouts.  European pensioners receive much higher State pensions.  Britain’s State pension is at the bottom of the European league.

Surely we British have had enough of unbridled free market policies, without State intervention this past 30 odd years,  to last a lifetime ?

Would the UKIP raise income tax on the rich to help pay for the investment needed into all of our vital public services, including our treasured National Health Service, our NHS has been underfunded for decades, because the Tory right wing do not believe in the concept of the NHS, and they never have.

So come on UKIP put “all” your cards on the table please, tell us all what your full manifest is. ?

Hiding behind immigration, and Brussels ruling us are such easy cop outs.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by boatlady on Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:58 pm

Wow! welcome back Ivanhoe - you're obviously a UKIP watcher, and it seems you've put your finger on the horrendous gaps in their thinking.

Personally, I see UKIP as Tories for the common man - after all the talk about the Tories being 'posh boys' and divorced from every day reality for the ret of us, I suspect some wily Tory policy bloke has come up with the idea of a splinter group (UKIP) that will mop up the working class vote - the plan being another 5 years of Tory misrule, backed up by a vociferous UKIP minority.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivanhoe on Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:22 pm

boatlady.  I'm not a UKIP watcher.  I just know they are using the immigration ticket to get votes, just like Cameron is getting rid of the State and everything connected to it.  Which leads me to ask this.

Why are so many people believing this crap about cutting the deficit ?

The truth behind the Deficit cutting is that David Cameron is using the deficit as a cover to dismantle the welfare State and the role of the State , but none of this reality is being picked up by either Labour Ministers; Lib-Dem ministers; or the BBC Media.      This reality is being dumbed down. The BBC media is compliant..

The very fabric of the role of what the State should provide in tax payers money to welfare; services and State pensions; is being whittled away under cover of reducing the deficit; and there is no opposition to it.; The Tory mantra of making painful cuts to reduce the deficit is little more than a smoke screen they hide behind to implement their ideology of reducing the size of the State; driving down wages; cutting benefits ect.;

My guess is that they'd make pretty much the same decisions for ideological reasons even if there wasn't a deficit.; The cynic in me says how easy it is for the right wing comfortably well off; greed infested Tory supporters to ridicule and chastise people on the receiving end of Tory cuts in welfare. And how equally easy it is for the right wing press to encourage this; just to sell their papers.

The Thatcherist; hard line; anti social policies the Tory's are forcing on us all makes them feel superior. And they perpetuate the suffering while living in their comfy homes without a conscience.; The Tories pretend to care about the pensioners having to choose between heating; or eating; the Tory's pretend to care about the families wondering how they are going to feed their children today and tomorrow.; The Tory's since Thatcher have been the same !;

No longer a small "c" left of centre Conservative party with a good social conscience.; No; since the 80's they have been ultra right wing; hardnosed; and with no compassion but to condemn the poor to a life of misery and no hope so long as they can live in relative luxury.; This is how they want it; to keep the masses under their eternal control. The Tories only aim is power and control.; For that reason the Tories love it when the economy is bad; so bad that they blame the masses of poor for it. It is malicious and insidious.;

And what makes it even more appalling is that the Tories actually do believe they are superior intellectually to everybody else.; This will be their downfall!; and I hope that this will be at the next general election in 2015.; The Tories deserve to be out of office for decades to come; if only to stop their bare faced arrogance.; Food banks in 21st century Britain; is as bad as the chronic homelessness we have; the awful old age poverty; and the low waged economy the Tories have nurtured throughout their 18 years of running Britain; 1979- 1997; and I might add; New Labour under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown; 1997- 2010; did nothing fundamental to reverse any of it.; Britain has suffered Thatcher's ideology for over 30 years. And the pensioners and the low waged workers are being screwed..
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:52 pm

I see UKIP as total opportunistic fear spreaders. They're trying to out tory the tories. How credible is this latest poll that says more people than ever want to stay in europe? The kippers will be so pleased to hear this!!

Hello again everyone! How are you all doing? Very Happy
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by boatlady on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:07 pm

Cool new hairdo
Nice to see you Adele

Ivanhoe - you're right - we all need to be out there voting for our preferred political philosophy in May

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:33 pm

QUOTE: "So come on UKIP put “all” your cards on the table please, tell us all what your full manifest is. ?"


Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer, there isn't one. UKIP are so intent upon seizing power from the Tories, they haven't had time to think up a convincing reason for doing so yet.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Redflag on Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:25 am

Hi Adele its nice to see you again, I am looking forward to seeing Ukips 2015 Manifesto if they dare print the truth.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:46 pm

Just as you think things couldn't possibly get any worse ....

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Redflag on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:37 am

IVANHOE I think you have put your finger on the truth about Ukip, they like the Tories just want power at any price the problem is we the public would have to pay the price of a Ukip (Tory) gov't.

I have a theory about the EU they want to be rid of the Tory gov't here in the UK, and this demand for more money £1.7 billion in the hope that will put people off voting Tory in the 2015 G.E, knowing that the Tories have fiddled the ecomomic figures to make themselves look good in the eyes of the voters but I believe this has BACKFIRED on the Tories and now they have a price to be paid.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:11 pm

I think your right Redflag. Cameron isnt wanted in Europe, they dont need us. This is one damn good way of getting rid of us, but will it work ?
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:12 pm

Of course UKIP want power at any price, that is why they have all those bloody TORIES amongst them, and those tories who are amongst them want power at any price, even if it means joining UKIP.
biggest pile of hypocrites getting voted for, yet the voters do not realise it because most voters are stupid.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:26 pm

Well said stuart torr.

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:43 pm

Thank-you for those kind words Ivanhoe. Laughing Laughing
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:30 pm

A Nation gets the government it deserves. If the voters choose Tory in spite of five years damaging behaviour, or UKIP because they promise something different for a change (though any change is likely to be for the worse), that's democracy.
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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:44 pm

You make a good solid point oftenwrong. Who was it that said democracy is the price we pay for fools ?

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Re: What are we going to do about UKIP?

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