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Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

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Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Redflag on Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hi stu

Heaven Help the UK if it does happen I just hope none of those that voted Ukip better not come crying to me when they find out that Ukip are more far right than the Tories, as I will have NO sympathy for them in fact my reply will be "Hell Slap it into You" plus the rest of us will have to pay for your STUPIDY.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Ivan on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:50 am

ghost whistler. Now you’re just trolling and way off the topic of the thread. Knowing that boatlady has done a lot of work in the voluntary sector, I am 100% certain she doesn’t support benefit sanctions, and you’re just making mischief to suggest that she does. Most of us here would probably like Labour to be more left-wing, but we also know that the party has to take at least 10 million voters with it. Maybe you’re too young to remember what happened in 1983.

Clearly you don’t like social democracy, and this thread would be the appropriate place for you to express your opinions on it:-
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Redflag on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:57 pm

As a right winger that GW definitely is Ivan, she/he is only on here to cause trouble or in the hope that we will all change our minds and vote Tory on the 7th May "NOT A HOPE IN HELL" I wonder what the Tories would give them if they suceeded a kick in the guts which would be usual for the Tory party when you see what they did to there most beloved leader Thatcher knifed in the back by her back benchers.

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:54 pm

Redflag wrote:As a right winger that GW definitely is Ivan, she/he is only on here to cause trouble or in the hope that we will all change our minds and vote Tory on the 7th May "NOT A HOPE IN HELL" I wonder what the Tories would give them if they suceeded a kick in the guts which would be usual for the Tory party when you see what they did to there most beloved leader Thatcher knifed in the back by her back benchers.


Then, again, I invite you to engage your brain and refute what I've said.

Accusing someone who argues in favour of welfare and not treating the poor like shit of being a right winger has to rank among the most stupid things i've ever heard. YOu really are a desperate little shill aren't you, so desperate to believe that your beloved red tories are anything but.

Here's another Red Tory:

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Here's teh words of Tom Harris, Labour MP:

"We were set up as the party to represent the values of working people, working being the key word. We weren't set up as some sort of charity to help the poorest in society".

And you think I'm a Tory? You need your head tested pal. Keep pretending that you're going to get anywhere with the filth in the Labour party who have handed our society over to the privateers and enabled everything this sick government has done.

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:26 pm

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:16 pm

eff off you tedious Jeremy Hunt
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by boatlady on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:37 pm

I think you have already been warned about using offensive language.
Your comment
eff off you tedious Jeremy Hunt
comes dangerously near the mark - I would advise you to be careful
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Redflag on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:06 am

ghost whistler wrote:And you think I'm a Tory? You need your head tested pal. Keep pretending that you're going to get anywhere with the filth in the Labour party who have handed our society over to the privateers and enabled everything this sick government has done.

You should watch how you word your posts if you do not want to be taken for a right winger GW, all you have done is whinge about the Labour party when it is the kings of bile that are the ones that are taking it out on the sick, disabled & vulnerable of the UK for what the Tory donors did to the UK in 2008, I myself do not think that Labour would be that nasty & cruel as the Tories have been over the last 5 years.

The only desperate one is yourself GW as for stupid I would have to go a long way to beat you on those stakes GW, all you have done since coming on here is whinge and cause trouble if your that anxious for answers to your questions contact the Labour they will be more than willing to answer them in the hope you would then vote LABOUR on the 7th May.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:59 am

Post deleted - reason - use of offensive language
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:08 am

boatlady wrote:I think you have already been warned about using offensive language.
Bit ridiculous to include a filter that prevents 'offensive language' from getting through and then complain about offensive language which doesn't get through.

But it's ok to label people who are demonstrably not as tories and right wingers? That's ok is it?

Get your head straight pal.

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:10 am

I can remember when the expression "agent provocateur" was more than just a brand name of saucy underwear.

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Redflag on Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:11 pm

ghost whistler wrote:I have a 'thing' because social security is the most important issue to me and she is the labour prospect for that portfolio.

Oh yes it's a good thing alright.

But you massively miss the point. It's going nowhere near far enough.

Even Jack monroe is saying she's had enough of your chums.


If your so upset about social security why not go on a right wing forum and whinge & moan there, because it is this Tory led gov't that is cutting the Welfare state not the Labour party IMHO the Labour party would not treat people the way this Tory led gov't has treated the sick disabled & vulnerable. There does need to be cuts to get the deficit paid and the UK debt paid off no matter who gets into power in May the reason for most people on here hoping its a Labour gov't because we all know Labour will not be AS NASTY to the low paid and vulnerable people of the UK. cheers
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:46 pm

I fully understand the justification for disapproving of rudeness from posters who make offensive comments, and for challenging views which are repeated too often, but surely it is just as bad to have a stream of admonishments against such people when the general indication that they are persona non grata has already been sufficiently aired.

We can leave the attempted suppression of alternative views to the Tories - can't we...?
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by boatlady on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:04 pm

People can say what they like - but there is no need to resort to offensive language, and I think it appropriate to delete a very short post that contained nothing but an insult against another member.

Anything that adds to the discussion is, of course, left in - there is no attempted suppression of alternative views - all opinions on the topic are of course welcome - opinions about the intellect or personality of other members, perhaps less so.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by boatlady on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:06 pm

And, moving on, the question was

Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:24 pm

And the answer may well be 'Yes'... but to say so around here risks the charge of being a 'right-winger' it seems...
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by boatlady on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:25 pm

No - I did ask people to reopen this thread because I was hoping to get a range of opinions about Ed in view of the quite poisonously negative and hostile views I sometimes read and hear.

I saw him speak to a roomful of people in my town, and was on the whole impressed with his presentation and the replies he was giving to questions from the floor. He struck me as a decent and intelligent bloke - maybe not a demagogue or a popular hero, but perhaps someone who would have the intellectual capacity to plan a course for government that would be able to take on board and serve a wide range of interests.

It's very clear that there is a bit of an appetite in the country for some policies that I would find unacceptably right wing, alongside some very hard-line left wing opinion; rabid racism alongside really laid-back acceptance of multi-culturalism and the idea of open borders. Currently, we have a government that panders by and large to the nastier and more right wing instincts, leaving a large portion of the electorate out in the cold.  The next government in my view can't swing far left, nor will they be able to reverse in a short time all the measures that have been put in place by this government - definitely, they can't make many firm promises until they are in a position to assess the damage and set detailed priorities.

Ed Miliband seems to me to be someone who may be able to set detailed priorities - so far, he has seems to have made cautious undertakings and stayed fairly strictly within an unambitious programme. He appears to have held the party together and appointed a reasonable shadow cabinet who have mostly remained loyal. So far, those are commendable achievements. We might have liked him to be a more impressive looking bloke, with more of a Churchillian air and a gift for getting the media onside and getting a daily soundbite onto the front page of the Sun - but none of that is really what's needed to run a country.

Can he win the election? I don't know
If he loses, can he stay on as leader of the Labour party? probably not
Could he run the country better and more fairly than Cameron and co? Damn right he could

Those are my opinions, based on what I've read, on my personal political bias and on seeing the man in the flesh on one occasion. I fully understand that others may not share them and would welcome the opportunity to explore the question with anyone who can do so without the use of offensive language  - ad hominem attacks against Ed, are, of course permissible, so long as they don't involve calling anyone else names.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Redflag on Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:37 am

Phil Hornby wrote:And the answer may well be 'Yes'... but to say so around here risks the charge of being a 'right-winger' it seems...

I think you have got this one very wrong PH, do you really expect people to vote Tory after what they have done to the people of the UK I think Ed Miliband will make a fine PM and when he gets into No10 people will find out that the Tories are bloody LIARS .As for Ukip hardly any one is going to put Nigel Farage into No10 unless there in need of being committed to an Asylum, yes Ed has a different way of doing politics IMHO Ed does not want to stoop to Davy boys level.cheers
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by boatlady on Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:05 am

Red, I do agree with you about Ed, and a Labour government would be, in my view, the best thing for the country at this time; however, there's no getting away from it, Ed has had some bad press and there does seem to be some chance that people won't vote Labour in the numbers we would like.

I'm quite concerned at this point that many left-leaning people seem to be turning away from Labour - maybe not to vote Tory, but to vote for the smaller parties that will split the vote and could end up preventing a Labour majority.

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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:06 pm

boatlady wrote:I think you have already been warned about using offensive language.
Your comment
eff off you tedious Jeremy Hunt
comes dangerously near the mark - I would advise you to be careful
If you don't like the way people respond, then you are free not to provoke them.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:13 pm

Redflag wrote:
You should watch how you word your posts if you do not want to be taken for a right winger GW, all you have done is whinge about the Labour party when it is the kings of bile that are the ones that are taking it out on the sick, disabled & vulnerable of the UK for what the Tory donors did to the UK in 2008, I myself do not think that Labour would be that nasty & cruel as the Tories have been over the last 5 years.
That you think the Tories are the only ones acting like this shows how dangerously naive you are. I could point you to the examples I have used, all of which are factually correct and remain unrefuted, but you would not listen. You are a fundie: you believe that Labour will fix everything and nothing will ever convince you otherwise despite, again the evidence. By all means vote Labour, I have already - twice - explained myposition, but don't be surprised when six months down the line Labour's position fails and another election is called. Miliband has not got it in him to invoke sufficient change. When the best Rachel Reeves can offer is a reduction in the use of foodbanks there is no hope. None whatsoever. If you think that's a goal worth achieving then god help us for having standards that have sunk so low.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Penderyn on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:42 pm

There will always be people who loathe the tory liars so much they will go all out to support the Labour Party.    The problem is that, having jettisoned socialism and the working class, the Party is forced, all the time, to move closer to the tories to get support from the richmen's press.    They will remain better than the tories, certainly (who could be worse?), but the tories themselves are meanwhile moving further and further right.
I was once a Branch Membership Secretary, and built up membership in a little English town to a hundred, with a regular attendance of over fifty.    I couldn't do it now, and we all know why, alas!
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:56 pm

Supporters to my Left: three-and-a-half.
Naysayers elsewhere in the debate: weighed rather than counted.

So the Naysayers have it.

To coin a well-worn saying, "Will the last person to leave kindly switch off all the lights."
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Ivan on Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:36 am

ghost whistler wrote:-
When the best Rachel Reeves can offer is a reduction in the use of foodbanks there is no hope.
Slight exaggeration maybe.  afraid

Amongst all the other myths and lies that Tory supporters put out, there is one that Labour is the party of the feckless and the work shy. Such remarks have been posted on this forum in the past by Tory contributors. Sometimes the story is developed and we’re told that Labour governments deliberately keep people on benefits so that they will be dependent on them and vote for them! It's rubbish, of course. For example, the number of people claiming incapacity benefit in 2010 was almost the same as the number claiming it in 1997.

On this theme, Amelia Gentleman asked the much-maligned Rachel Reeves this question:-

"Is it a problem if Labour is seen as the party of the welfare state?"

Rachel Reeves’ reply provoked a torrent of abuse, mainly I suspect because most people didn’t read it in full. This was what she said:-

"Yes of course, but we’re not. We don’t want to be seen, and we’re not, the party to represent those who are out of work. Labour are a party of working people, formed for and by working people – the clue is in the name. We are the Labour Party – we are not the party of people on benefits. But the welfare state was always supposed to be there to protect people in times of need, whether that was because they lost their job, or they became disabled, or they had a child who is disabled, to help with the cost of childcare, to help you when you are no longer earning because you are retired. That's what the welfare state was created for. I want to ensure that the welfare state is there for my children and their children in the future."

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If Rachel Reeves got something wrong there it was to omit the word "only" before "those who are out of work" and "of people on benefits". She's six months pregnant with her second child, and as she says, she wants the welfare state to be there for her children and grandchildren. The Tories don’t, they hate it. And that’s the essential difference - and why that sociopath Iain Duncan Smith and his assistant Esther McVey must be removed from the DWP in May.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:56 am

How is that a slight exaggeration?

What more evidence do you need to see that Labour offers no alternative beyond not being the Tories. That alone is not enough to address the problems we have, many of which they had a hand in.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:21 pm

You say Labour had a hand in the problems that the damned Conservatives have thrown on the country g.w.?
Well all I can say is that you must have a very vivid imagination, when labour are opposing all of the blue tory moves.
Ed Milliband will sort it out when he gets to power, and just because the tory rag the sun does not like his persona well what is new pray tell me please.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:43 pm

You mean the way they opposites the workfare emergency legislation?

Or how ed balls has refused to abolish the cuts and stock to Tory spending plans?

Much of d is happening now is based on groundwork already laid by new labour. Who do you think introduced the WCA and bright David Freud into government?
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:08 pm

Yes but which tory led coalition in 2011 extended these plans so that even people in wheelchairs ETC were found fit for work if they had any legs or not?
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:28 pm

No one has disputed what the coalition has done, but that doesn't alter the facts make labours activities any better
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:44 pm

You are just whinging because Labour have a lead in the polls, and your lovey dovey money grabbing tories will be out of power.
Do you not do anything else but whinge? try smiling for a change or would that crack your face?
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:07 pm

I'm getting a little tired of being accused of being a Tory, grow up
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:23 pm

Well you certainly are not a Labour supporter are you and I am grown up thank-you I believe it is you that needs to do that, it took you all that time to come up with an answer like that, very poor.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Ivan on Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:51 am

stu. I was sorry to read of your sad loss.

You mustn’t assume that everyone who attacks Labour is a Tory. I know ghost whistler from Twitter, and I can assure you that he has left-wing views. There are plenty of people who agree with him that Labour isn’t radical enough with its policies, especially when, for example, 70% of voters support full renationalisation of the railways. I think the party is still smarting from those four successive defeats from 1979 to 1992, and it's trying not to give ammunition to the right-wing media with which it can frighten the punters.

Where I disagree with ghost whistler is over attention to details. I believe that Rachel Reeves supports the welfare state, especially after she said: “I want to ensure that the welfare state is there for my children and their children in the future”. I’m equally sure that Iain Duncan Smith wants to kill off the welfare state. That in itself is enough to make me vote Labour.

I’ll also be voting Labour because I want to keep the Human Rights Act, while the Tories want to scrap it and replace it with their own warped idea of a Bill of Rights. That would allow no-fault dismissals, as Grant Shapps has already told us. The Tories want to make it all but impossible to go on strike. I think the bedroom tax should be scrapped, but the Tories want to keep it. It may seem trivial to some people, but I hate foxhunting and would never vote for any party or individual (such as Labour’s Kate Hoey) advocating its restoration.

The punitive work capability assessment in use now, with its 15-point tick boxes, is not the same as the system used by Labour, but we’ve had that exchange before. As to David Freud, it’s not true to say that Labour “brought him into government”. In 2006, Blair asked Freud to carry out an independent review of the welfare into work system. He was also an adviser to the odious James Purnell in 2008, but he joined the Tory Party in 2009 and was given a seat in the House of Lords soon afterwards. It was the Tories who put him in the current government as a junior minister.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:53 pm

Apologies Ivan.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:57 pm

I'm not saying she is as bad as IDS, but that she isn't good enough.

Yes the Tories have made the WCA even worse, but it was never ideal to begin with, that's the problem. That David Freud was taped in the first place is again bad enough: he's a merchant banker. that's a text book example of the attitudes of modern labour. I see no evidence that's all in the past.

Given the choice between bad or3 worse that's no contest, but is far from ideal and it seems people are content with this new dismal status quo. That's the really dedevious aspect
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:00 pm

OK G.W. whatever you say. Laughing
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:24 pm

Ivan wrote:....

You mustn’t assume that everyone who attacks Labour is a Tory. I know ghost whistler from Twitter, and I can assure you that he has left-wing views. There are plenty of people who agree with him ....

With all due respect to the author of that apologia, what are we to make of someone who persistently attacks the object of his affiliation? This is perhaps a cousin to those unfortunates who self-harm, or an adherent to the Biblical exhortation "If thy nose offend thee, cut it off."

This is politics of the madhouse. Revolution has to begin internally, rarely a result of barracking from the sidelines.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:56 pm

Well said OW.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by ghost whistler on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:44 am

oftenwrong wrote:With all due respect to the author of that apologia, what are we to make of someone who persistently attacks the object of his affiliation?  This is perhaps a cousin to those  unfortunates who self-harm, or an adherent to the Biblical exhortation "If thy nose offend thee, cut it off."

This is politics of the madhouse.  Revolution has to begin internally, rarely a result of barracking  from the sidelines.
are you seriously saying that anyone critical, with evidence supplied, of labour must be a Tory? Isn't that childish?
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by boatlady on Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:47 am

Revolution has to begin internally, rarely a result of barracking  from the sidelines.

I read this to mean - if you are unhappy with what is in front of you, the answer is to change it.

Being critical is all very well - however, we have seen no evidence that you are, for example, a Labour party member, or that you have taken your criticisms anywhere they would do any good - complaining on Cutting Edge is all well and good - but actually we are all just voters like yourself. We have seen your evidence and we have also used our own judgement and looked at other evidence.

I would say, if you have an issue with Rachael Reeves, you need to raise it with her personally - contact her personally and ask her to comment on the statements that have upset you. Ivan has been very helpful to you in terms of providing the context of the offending remarks and, as is your right, you are not convinced that his explanations cover the case. Your only recourse now would be to go to the horse's mouth and ask Rachael Reeve to explain her remarks to you, to your satisfaction. I expect she will be happy to give you an explanation, as the party want your vote in May. The same applies with any other policy that you are unhappy about - you need to contact the party direct to get a fuller explanation or to register your unhappiness. If you are not convinced by the explanations you get, you are, of course, free to vote for some other party or to abstain.

I think that's the way democracy works.
Your (much longer term) alternative would be to start your own political party - that gives you 5 years to put together a manifesto that you think is decent and votable and to find enough supporters, prospective candidates and financial sponsors - the NHA party did it in time for this GE.
If your ideas have sufficiently broad appeal, you should find you get a decent representation locally and in Europe within a few years and be in a position to mount a challenge to the bigger parties maybe by the next General Election. If your ideas don't convince enough people, you will not have passed the democratic test and your only chance will be to set up a dictatorship.
Please forgive me if any of this sounds patronising - it's actually very difficult to know how else to address you given that your response to all comments is angry and often seems unreasonable, and to my mind generally fails to respond to the totality of what people have said to you.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Penderyn on Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:38 pm

Starting a new political party is a VERY long-term job. We had a perfectly acceptable one until the right wing turned it into a mouthpiece for Murdoch-fanciers.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

Post by Ivan on Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:12 pm

Revolution has to begin internally, rarely a result of barracking from the sidelines.
Just to clear up any confusion, the above words were posted by oftenwrong and then quoted by ghost whistler.

We already have some alternative parties with good policies, notably the NHA Party, the TUSC and Left Unity. The NHA might well take Wyre Forest in May, as its candidate is the 80-year-old retired consultant who was the MP there from 2001 to 2010, but elsewhere those three parties are likely to get a derisory amount of votes and be fighting the Monster Loony Party for seventh or eighth place. Any votes cast for those parties will effectively be 'wasted' and increase the chances of Tories winning the seats.

And that's where some of us differ. Rachel Reeves is a lot more humane than IDS and McVey, and abolishing the bedroom tax and bringing in a mansion tax is preferable to the present arrangement. Keeping the Human Rights Act and the ban on foxhunting also does it for me. No Labour government has ever increased the rate of VAT, a tax which was introduced by a Tory PM in 1973 and increased by every Tory PM since, usually after saying they had no plans to do so. It may not be 'Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land', but a Labour government is infinitely preferable to these dangerous and extreme right-wing ideologues currently running the shop.
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Re: Is Ed Miliband living on borrowed time?

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