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What now for Labour? (Part 1)

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What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Fri May 08, 2015 11:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

A post mortem

We lost. I feared the worst a few days ago when walking my dog. I met a left-wing man I’ve known for years who said that he was voting for the Peace Party. Someone of his persuasion was going to throw his vote down the drain instead of opting for the only party which could replace the Tories. That made me apprehensive about whether millions of anti-Tory voters would use their votes effectively. (The Peace Party came seventh in my constituency.) Worse was to follow when I logged in here. To read that a serious Tory hater couldn’t “become enthused by any party on offer” and chose not to vote for the only viable alternative to Cameron’s evil regime, was further evidence, albeit anecdotal, that the Labour campaign, despite having so many troops on the ground, was failing to motivate enough people to secure a victory.

About eleven million people in the UK (about 37% of those who voted) chose the Tories, and it resulted in them winning 331 of the 650 seats in Parliament, 12 more than all the other parties combined. In our so-called democracy, we have to respect their choice, even if it’s difficult to understand it. I’ve never come to terms with how anyone of modest means, or anyone with a social conscience, could ever vote Tory. I have a brief encounter with OCD whenever I go into a polling booth, checking what I’ve done on the ballot paper several times before I put it in the box.

What makes it even more difficult to understand now is that many people believed Cameron in 2010, he lied to them and has since broken a string of promises (which have been recorded elsewhere on this forum any number of times). He’s presided over the cruellest government in living memory, and yet so many people don’t seem to care. He’s stuffed the House of Lords with cronies, often after the Tories have received generous donations from them, and he's sold off state assets at knockdown prices, in the case of the Royal Mail enabling Osborne’s best man to make a fortune. He and his government have even been reprimanded several times for falsifying statistics.

The Tories often complain that the BBC is ‘left-wing’, which it isn’t, as a thread on this forum fully demonstrates; if anything it leans to the right these days, and it has always fawned over so-called ‘royalty’. But the Tories never complain about the rabid right-wing nature of most of the press, with even ‘The Independent’ giving them a tepid endorsement this week. That press, and programmes such as ‘HIGN4Y’ and ‘News Quiz’, have participated in the character assassination of Ed Miliband over a long period of time, gradually corroding his credibility, and dismissing him as “not being prime ministerial”. Whether he is we will never find out now, but does Cameron fit the bill? So often he’s shown himself to be an arrogant, bad-tempered, out-of-touch bully with a sense of entitlement. His behaviour on the day after the Scottish independence referendum incited the Scots and drove many of them from Labour into the arms of the SNP. In this campaign, he created fear of the SNP to scare many English voters towards the Tories. Had he been alive today, Machiavelli could have learned lessons from Cameron.

Ed Miliband sometimes looks awkward on television and isn’t very good at eating a bacon sandwich (who is?). But what does it say when the issue of choosing a potential prime minister is reduced to the level of a vote for ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ or ‘The X Factor’? Would Clement Attlee - in my opinion the greatest PM we’ve ever had - have won many votes for his celebrity status? Shouldn’t it be more important to choose between the bedroom tax and a mansion tax, and between democratically managed public services or private ones controlled by unaccountable corporations? Did those who voted Tory really want the ultimate destruction of the welfare state? Are they really so blasé about the possibility of becoming sick, unemployed or disabled one day? Instead of thinking about such issues, so many were distracted by the Tory charge that Miliband was ‘weak’, even though Cameron was too scared to debate head-to-head with him.

So it was rather like 1992 after all. No triumphalist Sheffield rally this time, just a silly stone monument, but the polls telling us that it was neck-and-neck and then the Tories winning easily. Three party leaders have resigned, but so should the pollsters. Electoral Calculus was claiming only yesterday that the chance of a Tory majority was just 4%. I don’t think I’ll ever bother to look at an opinion poll again; studying tea leaves is probably a more reliable guide to election outcomes.

Maybe the similarities with 1992 (which turned out to be a good election to lose) won’t end there. Five months after John Major lied his way back into office with scaremongering and promises of “tax cuts year on year”, Tory economic incompetence was there for all to see on ‘Black Wednesday’. His hapless government, riddled with sleaze and tearing itself apart over Europe, limped through five unhappy years, and we all know what happened next. So maybe 2020 will be like 1997, but five years is a long while to wait to find out, and sadly a lot of vulnerable people are going to suffer in the meantime.


Last edited by Ivan on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:13 pm

What do you all feel will be the perception of voters regarding Corbyn's age in 2020 for a PM looking at a five-year term, during which he may have to hand over to another leader - unless he would seek a second election victory to take him towards 2030...?

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Penderyn on Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:51 am

sickchip wrote:Redflag,

Do you think Burnham, Cooper, or the other one are more electable than Corbyn? My opinion is all three would do worse than Corbyn in 2020.

I'm sick of people saying Corbyn is unelectable.........it's not as if the other leadership contenders are electable or have any appeal.

Agreed. The great thing about Mr Corbyn is that he reminds older people of when the party represented ordinary people and shows young people for the first time that principles exist in politics. The others are just the same old thing, tedious and pointless.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:22 pm

Can someone tell me what is so 'extreme' about Jeremy Corbyn's policies, many of which the Tories agreed with, or at least accepted, until Thatcher lurched their party sharply to the right?

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:34 am

IVAN maybe I am wrong but just take a look at what happened to Ed Miliband when he took the party to the LEFT, you got to admit most of his policies were to benefit the working man/women and he intended to take from the rich wealthy bankers & hedge fund managers but the voters of the UK are a fickle bunch and decided they preferred the Tory gov't and all of there cuts.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:04 pm

Redflag. 36.9% of the 66% who bothered to vote in May – 24.4% of the electorate – chose the Tories. 75.6% didn’t. The result of the election, using a voting system which is well past its sell-by date, was possibly the most disproportionate ever, giving the Tories a small majority which they in no way deserve on the figures.

We’re just going round in circles on this thread. Ed Miliband wasn’t left-wing enough for those who voted Green or SNP (and for many of those who didn’t vote at all). He wasn’t as clearly against austerity (which Jeremy Corbyn is) as those of us on the left would like. Ed didn’t attract any wavering Tory votes because, rightly or wrongly, he was perceived as anti-business. He was rightly opposed to an EU referendum, but he didn’t do enough to make the case for the EU and why a referendum is a bad idea. He didn’t connect with many working class people who drifted off to UKIP. Ed is a decent and honourable man, if slightly timid and prone to gaffes, but it’s easy – with hindsight – to see why he failed to motivate enough of the electorate to vote Labour. On the other hand, from the incredible turnouts for his meetings, it would seem that Jeremy inspires people to take an interest in politics and to realise that all politicians “are not the same”.

I firmly believe that the key to winning elections has less to do with whether or not you are left or right and is more about whether you offer clear and simple policies, so that everyone knows where you stand. Of the four leadership contenders only Jeremy Corbyn does that.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:50 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:What do you all feel will be the perception of voters regarding Corbyn's age in 2020 for a PM looking at a five-year term, during which he may have to hand over to another leader - unless he would seek a second election victory to take him towards 2030...?
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:47 pm

William Gladstone retired from his second term as Prime Minister
in 1894 at the age of 84.

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:09 pm

In 1892, William Gladstone became PM for the fourth time at the age of 82. In 1951, Winston Churchill became PM for the second time just a month before his 77th birthday. Fair enough, if Jeremy Corbyn becomes PM in 2020, he will be the oldest person ever to become British PM for the first time.

I have to confess that on 5 June, I wrote on this thread: “Jeremy Corbyn wouldn’t stand a snowflake’s chance in hell of becoming PM. He will be 71 soon after the next election…..some of you may recall how Ming Campbell was lampooned for being old when he was leader of the Lib Dems”.  Embarassed

The adoring crowds that have flocked to see Jeremy Corbyn have made me change my mind on that one. I assumed that in this age of celebrity culture, success in any part of public life depended on having a young and attractive appearance. The last couple of months may have proved me wrong. The press will of course use Corbyn’s age – and anything else, regardless of whether true or false – to try to hammer him into the ground. However, when someone can get into trouble for telling a barrister on LinkedIn that she looks “stunning”, I trust that if ageism rears its ugly head it will be treated with the contempt that it deserves.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:11 pm

All will therefore be well if the voters in 2020 and 2025 are of the same mind as those of the late 19th century - or even the mid-20th century - and believe that Corbyn has the same sort of curriculum vitae as both Gladstone and Churchill, to fit him for high office...
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:32 am

There is another question to the one you have put forward PH, it is will the voters believe JC or will they believe the Tory LIES as they did in 2015 ?? Jermy Corbyn will get his first chance (if he wins) on Wednesdays PMQs as too see if he has the steel in his blood to deal with Davy boy and his shower of braying DONKEY'S
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Penderyn on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:43 pm

Redflag wrote:IVAN maybe I am wrong but just take a look at what happened to Ed Miliband when he took the party to the LEFT, you got to admit most of his policies were to benefit the working man/women and he intended to take from the rich wealthy bankers & hedge fund managers but the voters of the UK are a fickle bunch and decided they preferred the Tory gov't and all of there cuts.

What an individual fuhrer does can easily be lied about by the tory hacks. The choices of a democratic movement are more difficult to distort. Back to democracy and mass membership!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:37 pm

Redflag. A lot of people will just believe whatever they want to believe, anything that massages their prejudices. I expect we’re just the same. If someone is susceptible to Tory and/or ‘Daily Mail’ lies, it doesn’t make any difference who is leading the Labour Party.

You attach far too much significance to PMQs. That takes place at midday on a Wednesday when most people have better things to do than watch Cameron getting red in the face and showing how unsuitable he is for the role of PM. And if you’re expecting Jeremy Corbyn to behave in a similar way, you’re in for a disappointment: “I don’t do personal, I don’t do reaction, I don’t do abuse. Life is too short and it devalues the political process”. It’s far more important that he elucidates a few simple and relevant policies that can improve the lives of ordinary people, and that those policies are repeated over and over again so that everyone knows exactly what the party stands for.

The Tories have been moving further and further to the right ever since Thatcher became their leader in 1975. Labour should not let them set the agenda, continually follow them to the right, and simply offer to be a little less nasty to benefit claimants.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:59 pm

Phil. What was Churchill’s ‘curriculum vitae’ for high office? Sending in the army against civilians in Tonypandy and to a house siege in East London? Stuffing up over Gallipoli, which cost the lives of over 44,000 Allied troops? Drawing up the map of the Middle East in a way which failed to give the Kurds their own state, something which has caused problems ever since? By the time he reached the age of 65, Churchill had been an abject failure.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:29 pm

Despite a defeat in 1945, I suspect he had accumulated in the minds of many at least some positive reputation, world standing and political gravitas as a result of being PM in the war years. Corbyn has not dipped his toe into waters as deep as those experienced by Churchill , whatever the latter's perceived failings.

But if our Jeremy outstrips, in the minds of his devotees, the likes of Winnie and W.E. Gladstone in the Prime Ministerial stakes, then who am I to doubt or minimise his chances of fame and fortune as a result of his triumphs from tomorrow, through 2020 until who knows when...?
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:11 pm

Despite a defeat in 1945, I suspect he had accumulated in the minds of many at least some positive reputation, world standing and political gravitas as a result of being PM in the war years
You've just moved the goalposts! Surely the issue is what makes someone fit for being PM before the first occasion that they form an administration.

And should Jeremy Corbyn become PM, it will be as the result of a general election victory, not the suspension of democracy because war had broken out. In 1940, Churchill was an 'unelected' PM, in every sense of the word.

I received an e-mail today from a young Labour Party member who has just started a course at York University. Here's an extract from his description of a Jeremy Corbyn meeting which he attended:-

"After standing congested in the same spot for longer than I anticipated, I peered over the crowds on my tiptoes and to my disbelief we were the last group of people admitted into the entire venue, the standing area already 20 deep encompassing the whole circumference. Every seat filled, the atmosphere building momentum, and the distinct groans of those left outside behind us less fortunate in their timing. The mixture of demographics was noticeable: large groups of young and older people alike, interacting fervently.

What I experienced in York has been replicated and exceeded in many other cities, such as Liverpool, Sheffield and of course the well-documented frenzy in Camden: people climbing in through windows to catch a few words, several overspill rooms and bus-top-addresses on the street
."

I have to admit that I can't understand the euphoria which Jeremy Corbyn has provoked; it took quite a few weeks before I decided to vote for him rather than Andy Burnham. Maybe sometimes we are all behind the game, and maybe peddling the same old stuff about Labour needing to be 'moderate' Tories to get elected just doesn't wash any more?
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:39 pm

I was simply addressing the post-war - 1951 -election of Churchill. But take no notice of my speculation - if you are confident that Corbyn will not attract the doubts of the electorate on grounds of age - or, indeed, any other factor - then he will be elected in 2020 and prove to be a fine and successful PM.

I would not be putting a substantial bet on such an outcome however, but then, I tend to flit about the whole political debate without any great deal of analysis - relying upon that gut instinct, which is bound to let me down one day...
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:45 am

Maybe 1951 is not such a good example; Churchill lost that election in terms of votes, it was the quirky FPTP system which gave him a small majority and opened the door to 13 years of Tory rule. Still, the Tories weren't quite so rabid in those days, at least Macmillan didn't "sell off the family silver".

I am not confident that Corbyn can win in 2020, but judging from the enthusiasm which he has generated, I suspect he has more chance of doing so than any of his three rivals. A lot can happen in five years; to quote Macmillan again: "Events, dear boy".

As to substantial bets, in two hours from now we may all be regretting that we didn't put a large amount on Corbyn to win when the odds were 500-1 back in June.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:56 am

Ivan wrote:Redflag. You attach far too much significance to PMQs. That takes place at midday on a Wednesday when most people have better things to do than watch Cameron getting red in the face and showing how unsuitable he is for the role of PM. And if you’re expecting Jeremy Corbyn to behave in a similar way, you’re in for a disappointment: “I don’t do personal, I don’t do reaction, I don’t do abuse. Life is too short and it devalues the political process”. It’s far more important that he elucidates a few simple and relevant policies that can improve the lives of ordinary people, and that those policies are repeated over and over again so that everyone knows exactly what the party stands for.

You seem to forget Ivan that is the way Ed Miliband handled the Tory insults and smears & look how that turned out,


Not doing personal, reaction, or abuse is highly commendable Ivan and I applaude your approach, however you would be the only 1.    Politics by its very nature is about getting you view across and sometimes that means having to scream so that it can be heard or shout loud enough so that you will be witnessed..  Is it Ideal no but for the most part it is how it is and through observing the Political  shenanigans via Social Mediia, Media Written or visual  its what we see.  treacherous, scheming and complete... Very Shakepearean....   If Jeremy Corbyn enters the areana with anything less than his game face on his shelf life expectancy as newly appointed head of party will be over before its begun and that would be an absolute shame.

PS Just to let the people on this forum know on the RT channel yesterday Vivenne Westwood (fashion guru) took a army tank to the gates of Davy boys Chipping Norton home to protest against Fracking none of this was reported on BBC ITV or Sky this is what JC is up against with Davy boy and the right wing controlled   media.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:28 am

" ...none of this was reported on BBC ITV or Sky ..."

Maybe she should have let loose a few shells - that may have attracted some attention... afraid
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:38 am

Purely in the interests of accuracy, the "Vivienne's no-fracking tank" item was reported on BBC local TV Oxford:

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Claudine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:44 am

This Labour leadership election result is going to be absolutely fascinating. I've just seen David Lammy on Sky displaying the art of how to be strategically smart.

If other Labour MPs are as smart, then Corbyn will make this work. It's going to be a fascinating few years for the party.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:31 pm

So, we now know that Jeremy Corbyn is the new Labour leader.

The dispossessed and the desperate will vote for him because he will represent hope for them - maybe the only hope they have. The key will be whether he will attract sufficient support from those who are not poor or needy but who, nevertheless, have the plight of the less advantaged as a priority.

That is where my doubts lie - there are so many people in this country who are light years away from being rich, but are still so comfortably off that they are immune from even the deeply unpleasant range of attacks which the Cameron Tories visit upon the nation. Only if their consciences are stimulated by the policies of Corbyn will he have the chance to succeed, since I doubt the downtrodden in society will on their own have sufficient numbers to sweep Cameron aside.

I wish Corbyn well in the interests of those who have little or nothing - and I hope he starts to OPPOSE in a way that has been so sadly lacking - but my concerns remain as to whether enough will join me in hoping he can be the undoing of the cruel and brutal Tory Government...
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Penderyn on Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:37 pm

Now our real work starts!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Claudine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:24 pm

I'm actually excited about the future which is slightly surprising considering how I was feeling after the election.

The party can and must unite behind the new leader. Reed & Reeves returning to the backbenches doesn't concern me in the slightest. We have a five-year fight on our hands and to be successful, the party needs people who are fully on side and prepared to fight against the Tories.

Now if Jeremy could only do something about that little toad Dan Hodges........
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:10 pm

Seven resignations from the shadow cabinet at the latest count - Cooper, Reeves, Reynolds, Kendall, Umunna, Hunt and Reed. All throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't accept the result of the most democratic party election in UK history - and a landslide verdict at that.

Jeremy Corbyn's acceptance speech hinted that he intends to be an inclusive leader, possibly like Harold Wilson, who did a good job of holding both wings of the party together. These seven are a disgrace, not even waiting to see what sort of olive branch was going to be offered to them.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Claudine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:03 pm

I couldn't agree more, Ivan.

I'm particularly disappointed with Rachel Reeves. Her direct opposite was our Iain, a politician who is excellent in the field of gifting own goals yet she was unable to score a direct strike. I appreciate that the Labour party as a whole were battling against against a mainly right-wing press but she really should have done more.

I absolutely expected tantrums from Hunt & Umunna but my eyebrows are definitely arched the actions of the others. It just seems like hari kari to me.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:55 pm

So the waiting is over, the Labour Party has a new Leader from the Socialist side of the blanket and we can all go back to sleep again for five years.

But there may be more to it. Much more. People who voted for Jeremy Corbin were expressing total dis-satisfaction with FPTP elections and the "Buggins' turn" of administrations barely different from each other. They hope for a stand against faceless corporations and the "lobbyists" who frighten politicians into passing divisive legislation. The 85% proportion of new voters supporting Corbyn echoes the new ability of social-networks to mobilise Public Opinion far more effectively than arranging a street-demo such as the one which Blair found it convenient to ignore when he invaded Iraq.

May we live in interesting times!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:59 pm

"...throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't accept the result of the most democratic party election in UK history - and a landslide verdict at that."

I don't consider it is incumbent upon anyone to serve if they don't wish to do so - a leader must command support, not demand it as of right.

I don't recall anything but support on here for Robin Cooke when he dissented similarly on points of principle. Nor did Corbyn unerringly trot into the lobbies in support of his party leadership. Yes, it was a fully democratic election and result, but democracy also means that a contrary view is possible.

Let's not have a load of hypocrisy as the mark of the Corbyn regime. There is plenty of appetite in the Labour Party for trashing the old Blair view of the world, so there will quite naturally be those who are going to vent similar disrespect to the new Messiah...
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:22 pm

"The self-regarding egomaniacs rushing to announce that they won't serve under Corbyn are wrong. They damage themselves and the party and accomplish nothing except to demonstrate their contempt for the party they say they love. It's not the first attempt to turn sulking into a political strategy - Ted Heath managed it for years - but to elevate their hurt egos above the interests of the party is contemptible." (Austin Mitchell)

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:50 pm

Isn't it simply awful when you don't get what you want?

Left-wingers in revolt were always the bane of a Labour leader's life. It just seems different when the right-wing have their turn...
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:49 pm

QUOTE: " Cooper, Reeves, Reynolds, Kendall, Umunna, Hunt and Reed...."

Fair enough, a Gang of 7 might emulate the original Gang of 5 and may even choose to form a New SDLP.  Why not?  It's a free Country.
 
Events at the forthcoming Annual Conference of the Labour Party should map the intended territory of a new Socialist Labour Party.  Only if it fails to do that will there be cause for concern, since the Power-at-any-price faction will turn out to have maintained the status quo ante in defiance of the electoral process.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:10 pm

The country needs to be able to have a clear choice at the next election : will it want a clearly socialist government or another dose of a Tory brand of cruelty for the disadvantaged?

Or is it maybe something somewhere between the two that is the true preference of the typical Joe Public?
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:50 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:...there are so many people in this country who are light years away from being rich, but are still so comfortably off that they are immune from even the deeply unpleasant range of attacks which the Cameron Tories visit upon the nation. Only if their consciences are stimulated by the policies of Corbyn will he have the chance to succeed, since I doubt the downtrodden in society will on their own have sufficient numbers to sweep Cameron aside.

I wish Corbyn well in the interests of those who have little or nothing - and I hope he starts to OPPOSE in a way that has been so sadly lacking - but my concerns remain as to whether enough will join me in hoping he can be the undoing of the cruel and brutal Tory Government...

Your doubts and mine lie in the same direction PH, and your fear that the middle income people  will not vote for JC then with the insults & smears from the Tory party that will be the end of middle income earners from voting Labour in 2020.

I just hope all of those 250,000 people that voted for JC there will be nothing he can do to stop the Tories from doing in the HOC because of the numbers plus more than likely with the support of the DUP party.
As for the seven MPs that have resigned from the front bench I can see there side of it to watch there party fall apart at the seems, I also wonder how many of those that paid there £3.00 to vote in the leadership election will become fully paid up members of the Labour party ??     As for JC being to the left everybody in the Labour party to the left of politics that is the reason for me being in the Labour party is my poltics are on the left also.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:53 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:" ...none of this was reported on BBC ITV or Sky ..."

Maybe she should have let loose a few shells - that may have attracted some attention...  afraid

Come April when the family tax credits are stopped there willl be a few willing to throw a few shells Davy boys way PH.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:57 pm

Robin Cook resigned when the decision was made to go to war in Iraq. Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t done anything yet to provoke any resignations, yet Jamie Reed quit within two minutes of the announcement of the result of the leadership election. He didn’t wait to see if Corbyn was going to be conciliatory to the right, in fact he didn’t even wait for the acceptance speech.

The only people who have done something so far are the 251,000+ who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. He won by a landslide in all three constituencies – full members, affiliated members and registered supporters – so any concerns about those £3 voters (which brought in some much-needed cash for the party) are irrelevant.

However, for seven (or is it eight now?) members of the shadow cabinet to resign, not because of any immediate policy implementation but because they didn’t like the very clear result of a democratic election, is an insult to all those party members – the grassroots – who thought differently. I repeat it is tantamount to them throwing their toys out of the pram.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:33 am

Redflag said [/color]"As for the seven MPs that have resigned from the front bench I can see there side of it to watch there party fall apart at the seams.
It seems to me that it isn't a matter of sitting on their arses and watching the party collapse, when by resigning they can create the parties demise.
As far as I am concerned they are well rid of, do we need people who are so undemocratic they bugger off when they don't get their way.
Herr Cameron might be able to use them as they are useless to the Labour party.  
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:40 am

Well done Mr Corbyn, a good win. I don't know yet if he is the man to gain victory in 2020, if he isn't, the least he will do is take the Labour party well to the left of where it is now.
I look forwards to the time when we actually have a Labour party in power who will take us back from whence it came.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by TriMonk3y on Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:49 am

I'm pleased by Corbyn's win, although I am neither a Labour member or voter. A democracy without meaningful choice is not a democracy.

Corbyn's victory of course is devastating stuff, winning the CLP (I think) vote, but more significantly the registered supporter and member votes outright. What this reveals is a Parliamentary Labour Party seriously at odds with the outlook of its members.

Jeremy Corbyn can make an impression, and he can win in 2020 - he just inspired, and he just won. If he can inspire the membership of the labour party then he can inspire that of the country. Anything else is plain drivel. Whether he goes on to achieve either is another matter.

It is incumbent upon all in the party, especially the PLP, to get behind the choice of the membership.

I'll be watching with interest from the sidelines.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady on Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:37 am

I have to say, his win has given me new hope and new energy - I think at least he may inspire the party to want to be the best alternative, rather than the least bad alternative, and that can't be bad
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:22 am

bobby wrote:Well done Mr Corbyn, a good win.  I don't know yet if he is the man to gain victory in 2020, if he isn't, the least he will do is take the Labour party well to the left of where it is now.
I look forwards to the time when we actually have a Labour party in power who will take us back from whence it came.

Bobby any gov't can do SFA without being in POWER, and that as a Labour member worries me if the Tories get back into power in 2020 with this term and the next there will be no UK left. But what we will have is the WORKHOUSES something the Tories would love to see along with the big Corporations bankers and there ilk.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

Post by TriMonk3y on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:20 pm

Redflag wrote:any gov't can do SFA without being in POWER...

I'm with Boatlady on this, Labour, or anybody else for that matter, need to present a meaningful alternative to the Tories. Until that happens the Tories win even when they lose, hence Thatcher regarding Blair as her greatest achievement. There is no point aiming for power to simply be less bad than the other guys, its just a stalling tactic on the inevitable return to the Victorian model. Take on the debate, or slowly and irreparably cede the argument.

Lee
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 1)

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