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Why do we need human rights anyway?

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Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Wed May 13, 2015 7:35 am

First topic message reminder :

Aiming to start looking forward and provoke some debate about some of the regressive policy heading our way over the next few months...

I originally published this article elsewhere earlier in the week.

Challenging road ahead for Tories on Human Rights Act Repeal
Repeal and replacement of the Human Rights Act is both regressive and complex

The battles lines have been drawn on Human Rights by the Conservative Party for some time. Undoubtedly the legislation would have been repealed by the previous government but for an unusually principled defence by the Liberal Democrats in coalition.

It is worth considering from the outset what the Human Rights Act is and does. The Act requires public bodies in the UK to comply with selected sections of the European Convention on Human Rights, and the courts to read legislation in accordance with those rights or declare them incompatible. Feel free to have a read of the legislation yourself here. Nothing beyond the pale so far.

Perhaps then Conservative objections lie in the Convention rights themselves. Lets take a look at those rights:

Contrary to what is being reported elsewhere the Act does not even commit the entire Convention into UK Law, simply Articles 2 - 12 and 14 of the Convention and 1-3 of the First Protocol and the 13th Protocol as shown here. These rights cover:

life
torture
servitude
liberty and security
fair trial
retroactivity
privacy
conscience and religion
expression
association
marriage
discrimination
property
education
elections
absence of death penalty

So again, up to this point there is nothing particularly insidious about any of these rights (and freedoms from), why do the Tories want to take them away from you?

The answer is really quite simple - they keep getting caught out breaking them. I'll outline briefly where this has occurred. There is nothing particularly wrong with the actions the Government was attempting to take, other than its' failure to follow its own processes and procedures for doing so.

The most high profile cases in this are are the questions around prisoner voting rights, and problems deporting foreign national criminals from the UK following their releases from sentence.

With Prisoner Voting rights the UK has been told that a complete ban is contrary to the convention and successive governments have refused to deal with the matter by, for example, preventing only prisoners with longer sentences from voting.

There have been several failed deportation cases, many of which have occurred simply because the Government has failed to follow its own processes. There is some data on the subject published here by the Home Office. Take the terrible example of the Aso Mohammed case where the defendant had been released for 7 years before anyone attempted to deport him. It is clear that had this been tried on his release, he would have been deported. As citizens we are compelled to comply with the law. Importantly the government must too - that is a fundamental to our constitutional principle of rule of law.

None of this pretends there is not a problem, it's just that the problem is not one of law, but one largely of government incompetence.

The key point is that the purpose of the Act and the Convention rights it introduces is to hold the Government to its international commitments on human rights. A separate Bill of Rights as proposed will only be of advantage to any government if it reduces your rights, or the burden upon itself to demonstrate that it has complied with those rights. The government is eroding your rights against it, and expecting you to believe thats a good thing - you're being sold a mouldy sandwich.

The complexity of the matter becomes clear when you consider the relationship that the UK has with its devolved administrations, and with Europe.

On the domestic level the devolved administrations are required to comply with Convention rights. In the case of the Scotland Act this works by channelling in the Convention rights through the Human Rights Act. This is not an unsurmountable obstacle, but it should be clear that large sections of domestic legislation will need to be amended to facilitate a repeal, and in the case of the Scotland Act this would require a legislative consent motion which will be incredibly difficult to extract.

The final point is that the UK can repeal the Human Rights Act, but that will not remove its obligation to comply with the Convention. Only withdrawal from the Convention itself achieves that, and so a repeal of the Act without withdrawing from the convention simply moves the problem from British Courts to a European one. Hardly likely to fulfil the extreme sovereignty agenda of this right wing government.

This is compounded by the UK's membership of the European Union and thereby that organisation's Fundamental Charter on Human Rights which contains a similar list of rights. The UK has no exemption from that and will need to leave the EU to avoid it. Again, this further opens up European avenues for challenge - surely retaining the Human Rights Act and settling these cases in British courts should be preferable, and more expedient?
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:34 pm

I think that will depend on further conduct, and the wider public sentiment.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Ivan on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:55 pm

It is deeply disturbing when the rule of law is jettisoned, and a politician decides who should die at the touch of a button

From an article by Clive Stafford Smith:-

Sometime on 21 August, a British drone operator in a hangar in Lincolnshire pressed a button and a missile was launched in northern Syria. It killed Reyaad Khan, a 21-year-old from Cardiff. Cameron and his attorney general approved the 'hit', and now we are told that some legal theory related to self-defence justified the decision.

Of course, the standard would-you-rather-wait-till-he-kills-someone brigade shrugs its shoulders at all this. But for the rest of us it is deeply disturbing when the rule of law is jettisoned, and a politician decides who should die at the touch of a button.

Despite Downing Street denying the existence of its own 'kill list', we learned that the UK has just this - a list of people we plan to kill in secret. Once again, our principles risk becoming the main casualty in the War On Terror, as we jettison 800 years of the rule of law. Was Khan ever going to commit a crime in the UK? I have no idea. The benefit of a courtroom - or even a parliamentary debate - is that it allows us to hear the evidence beforehand, and can prevent us from making mistakes.

The question of Syria should be subjected to a democratic debate. If we think we should join a war there, and perhaps reprise Iraq, then we will have democratically chosen our own course - however foolish it may be. But if our politicians know they cannot publicly persuade the people that a war will make us safer, then resorting to secret killings is not the answer.


For the whole article:-
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/clive-stafford-smith/drone-strike-david-cameron_b_8104882.html
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Ivan on Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:44 pm

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:45 pm

Questioning the legality of the recent drone strikes does not mean you support ISIS.
But it certainly means you are assisting them. The Good Book (nearly) says: There shall be joy before the angels of God on one jihadi doing penance. So why complain when the angels are happy? And everyone's a winner because the terrorist gets a green couch and several virgins. Where is the problem?
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:21 am

I disagree with the core premise of that.

If you have to put aside legal process, ethics and morals to defeat an enemy that wants to overturn your way of life - then they've already won. If you delegitimise your own position, you are assisting them, and if to boot you fire a wave of new recruits their way in the process, you're assisting them.

Arguing for a rational and considered framework with oversight within which to operate does no such thing.

I'll pass on the theology. The big man doesn't seem to have been around for the last few weeks.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:00 am



"If you have to put aside legal process, ethics and morals to defeat an enemy that wants to overturn your way of life - then they've already won. "

Slow down a little. There's no point in cramming a variety of debatable points into the first part of your conditional statement and then drawing a conclusion based on the jumble.

No one is putting aside ethics and morals, for a start. Your statement would have meaning only if "putting aside legal process" meant that our system of law has been upturned -in which case, yes, the terrorists have achieved something of what they want. Our legal system is intact. It is perfectly legitimate to use whatever means we have to defend ourselves and to prevent slaughter. And enquiring what the terrorists had in mind does not help us; it certainly helps the enemy.

 "If you delegitimise your own position, you are assisting them"

You are simply repeating yourself here. The question of "delegitimising" doesn't occupy the minds of those who have been attacked, least of all those who've been killed. Your feared retaliation will occur whether the action you take was completely above board or not - as we see in practice.

You "fire a wave of new recruits" NOT by infringing some legality. Do you REALLY suppose that terrorists, noting that we have acted wholly within what is scrupulously legitimate, will say "fair deal, legitimate hit - no recruiting there."

"Arguing for a rational and considered framework with oversight within which to operate does no such thing."

It does. We're not talking about mere arguing. The issue is about publicly challenging those who are fighting dangerous terrorists and putting obstacles in their way. This undoubtedly assists the terrorists. It is like giving them a voice in our own ranks. At the very least it prevents speedy future action. We are in a war situation and the important thing is to destroy the terrorist, not play legal games with him. When we oppose those who are trying to destroy our enemies, we assist our enemies. This is fairly simple to follow.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:55 am

No, I still disagree.

I'm not going to trawl through that, I've made my thoughts clear, and I stand by them.

As you say though, your final point is simple to follow - too simple. It assumes that this enemy can be militarily destroyed, the last 15 years should have made it pretty plain that it cannot be, the threat evolves and migrates. It assumes that having due process need slow decision making - when it need not. It assumes that action hinders the enemy when it is just as likely to assist him in other ways. It also assumes that decisions to launch such strikes are made at the drop of a hat, where in reality they form part of a much longer and drawn out process of intelligence and planning of which a procedure for authorisation could be an intrinsic and material yet unobtrusive part. It also forgets that while weakening our enemy, we are also seeking to weaken our enemy's enemy at the same time, and thereby to employ your own argument our embargo on the Syrian government is assisting daesh too.

No. Putting in place a framework to ensure that the decisions that are made are the right ones does not assist the enemy. It does much to undermine flows of people and capital into their supporting structures - and that is where you defeat this enemy.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:39 pm

Your reply is so confused that it would require more patience than I possess to attempt to straighten out your thinking. Basically you have come to some conclusion, heaven knows how, and you miraculously think you are right. Your motivating force seems to be fear of reprisals but here you are hopelessly muddled. Writing "it assumes" four times doesn't validate your stance. And bringing in "our embargo on the Syrian Government" when we're talking about killing two terrorists borders on the amusing.  But your threat that " evolves and migrates " is a fine linguistic curiosity.

What assists the enemy is the public criticism of military action. That is the point being made. Your:


Putting in place a framework to ensure that the decisions that are made are the right ones does not assist the enemy.


is just waffle. I would hate to be the person who marked your essays. But bless you, anyway.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:03 pm

No.

My responses reflect the complexity of the immediate and wider situation - something that your binary outlook does not provide for.

I could write at length about why it is both unconstitutional and anathema to democracy, and why we should seek to live by those very values that we wish rest of the world to aide by, but I see that I would be wasting my time.

Have a good evening.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:18 pm

My responses reflect the complexity ......   They may wish to, but they don't.

I could write at length about why it is both unconstitutional and anathema to democracy ..... I think the constitution and democracy are pretty safe in the circumstances. Not acting is a bigger threat to democracy. For evil to triumph it is sufficient that good men do nothing.

..... but I see that I would be wasting my time......  but in setting down your narrative you might discover the flaws.  I respect your sincerity. Have a good evening too.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:10 pm

Ultimately, "Human Rights", in the sense of individual freedom to live-and-let-live, stem from the barrel of a gun.

The effect of surrendering personal self-defence to an elected government is right now being tested on the streets.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:36 pm

The effect of surrendering personal self-defence to an elected government is right now being tested on the streets.

Would you prefer to get your pitchfork and do it yourself?
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:29 pm

As you will remember, that was standard advice in September 1939.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:30 pm

Perhaps I have missed the historical context, but the events of 1939 were preceded by a very similar moral angst and soul searching about whether to act decisively to stop an amoral aggressor with any means required, or pursue peace at all costs. I believe history remembers those who pursued the latter course unfavourably, though perhaps a little harsh it seems a valid viewpoint given how things unfurled.

"the Islamic State’s countless other propaganda videos and encyclicals, are online, and the caliphate’s supporters have toiled mightily to make their project knowable. We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world."

LINK

Given their aims I'd say your comparison with the events of 1939 is quite interesting, and very apropos. I marvel at those who emphatically dismiss military action as doomed to fail, and whilst I don't pretend to claim any expertise here, or to remotely grasp the mindset of theocratic fascists, it's  very hard to see what other credible options are available to stop ISIS, and why the people who dismiss military action are generally so reticent about such alternatives. I'm guessing asking their leaders to surrender themselves to international arbitration in the Hague is unrealistic. Have we considered sanctions?

Sorry for the sarcasm, it's one of my major failings, I hope it doesn't detract from my point though, as I am genuinely curious where the "free world" goes from here, if we all agree that ISIS can't simply be allowed to exist as a sovereign state any more than Hitler and Nazism could.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:43 pm

I am amazed, DSC, at your extrapolation from the few words oftenwrong has written. I thought, with his problematic succinctness, he was simply asking us to recall the year 1939. But you have cleverly seen a connection with the topic of Human Rights and even ISIS.

I agree that a military response is the only one available. There are too many fairy-tale -reading liberals who want to apply a litmus test to every action we take, thus helping our enemies. Before the war there were many appeasers, not unlike Corbyn but a bit more intelligent, who thought you could offer a sop to Cerberus.

When dealing with Human Rights issues, the ambrosia of greedy lawyers, it is, I find, impossible to avoid sarcasm, so no need to apologise. I never use it myself.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:44 pm

marcolucco wrote:I am amazed, DSC, at your extrapolation....


verb.sap, marco?
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:47 pm

I have no problem with angst and hand ringing over human rights violations, quite the opposite. I dearly wish those murderous religious fascists in ISIS would try a little introspection, instead of endless navel gazing. They're inviting military action of course, but I really don;t see what other options are left, challenge them to some high stakes poker maybe.

There I go again with my sarcasm. Rolling Eyes

I'd happily extend basic human rights to every living human, with the caveat they respect those rights as well. Any civilised society reserves the right to withdraw certain rights if people don't respect the rights of others. When confronted with religious fascists intent on genocide and bringing about the end of the world, I worry less about their rights than I do about those that become the centre of their murderous intentions.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:08 pm


verb.sap ? Gratias, oftenwrong.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:21 pm

I've always been of the view that there are some animals more worthy of our consideration than some specimens of homo sapiens. The brutes who murdered children, cut off heads and burned a man alive cause us to revisit our definition of human being. When two terrorists are quickly destroyed there should be rejoicing; instead, we have those who want to check the phraseology of a document or the colour of ink in which it is written. They impede a state's necessary actions. Vladimir won't have any qualms about the nature of his retaliation.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:59 am

It's natural to approve the full force of The State when the bad guys are stopped, and possibly ungrateful to question the methods.

Kafka and Orwell showed the other side of that coin, where an ordinary person may find him-or-her-self caught up by accident in the Official Machinery.

Then it becomes apparent why safeguards of individual liberty need to be firmly in place.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:18 am

This is true, and we are perhaps being a little flippant. Though this is understandable under the circumstances. I used to chuckle when people I knew throthed at the mouth with rage at the cost of expelling people like Abu Hamza, into the welcoming arms of the CIA. Firstly I'd gladly see everyone donate a tenner to that cause,  and secondly if our HR's legislation can be abused by a slimy hate filled mouthpiece for mass murder then that indicates how robust a system it is. 

As for violating people's rights, well this is the basis of any system that punishes crime, those who disregard the rights of others are in turn punished by losing some of the rights they enjoy. Post industrialised western democracies respect the rights of individuals in laws during the normal running of things,  and go out of their way to avoid unnecessary bloodshed on the whole, having learned within living memory of the tragic consequences of unbridled militarism and nationalism. Unlike Islamic terrorists who have no such compunction, and delight in hitting out at unarmed civilians who are not in a position to fight back or even defend themselves.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:39 pm

Yes, you are correct in advising caution, oftenwrong, but we have the most safeguarded country this side of Mars. Kafka and Orwell correctly described what happens when power is seized by the unscrupulous: Stalin perfectly illustrated that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It is because we are in such an excellent democracy that we can express wishes to "kick David Cameron in the face" - as if this shows man at his civilised best.

The way things are going we will require to put our democratic liberties to greater tests. Instead of having these silly, schoolboy taunts about wicked Tories and wonderful Labour we will have to act, as Robert Burns suggested, as brothers to combat those who would destroy us. After that we can throw our custard pies.

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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:46 pm

DSC - It may be that we will have to take a less benign view of religion. It was fine to give charitable status to fund-raising Christians and smile benevolently on vicars calling their flock to Sunday prayers - but when religion becomes an instrument for murder and the books being used by it are incentives to massacre, we must review our package of civil liberties.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:26 pm

Well that was a watered down version of Christianity that western democracies had slowly neutered of power, and they it still fed sectarian violence, virulent anti Semitism, the inquisition and endemic child abuse by the catholic priesthood. I think this quote from the Hitch is apropos.

"Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”

Christopher Hitchens

I think when dealing with religions and the question of how much freedom  they should have, it would be prudent to keep this quote always in mind. I firmly believe a person has the right to believe whatever they wish, but those beliefs don't themselves entitle the holder to anything beyond the rights we would and should afford everyone.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:01 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:As for violating people's rights, well this is the basis of any system that punishes crime...

I'm splitting hairs to some degree, because you are right in practical terms, but under the current ECHR / HRA98 model in the UK those rights are not violated as those rights are qualified.

Quick example - ECHR Article 5:

Council of Europe wrote:1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
(a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
(b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for noncompliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the ful lment of any obligation prescribed by law;

The right is not absolute, as long as the qualifications are met the right is withdrawn rather than violated.


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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:35 pm

That's the same ECHR that many Tories and U-kippers want to cut Britain free of, am I right?
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:47 pm

Thank you for the correction, withdrawn actually makes more sense than violated, as those rights still exist but some are suspended for a time dependant on the severity of the crime. Though obviously this differs from outright violations of those rights when acting in other countries, and even against citizens of the EU, even within our own boarders. I fully grasp the slippery slope such actions can represent but feel identifying which is the greater danger is paramount. Of course this is precisely what a fascist dictator would say and have said, just before they claim absolute power in a totalitarian state, "for the common good" obviously. Wink
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:51 pm

oftenwrong wrote:That's the same ECHR that many Tories and U-kippers want to cut Britain free of, am I right?

Not just the Tories and UKIP's of course, and not all Tories by any means, but yes. The hilarity of people thinking the UK can waltz out of the EU and trade as a completely free entity on favourable, let alone 'more favourable' terms is both hilarious and scary. Then again there is Switzerland's deal with the EU that seems to be just like this.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:02 pm

oftenwrong wrote:That's the same ECHR that many Tories and U-kippers want to cut Britain free of, am I right?

I don't know what UKIPs position is. The Tories seem to be leaning, strangely, towards remaining in the ECHR while giving the Supreme Court primacy over the ECtHR. It's difficult to see how that is even possible given that:
a) it would place the UK in direct contravention of Article 46(1), and;
b) the supreme court would be in breach of it's own rules of statutory interpretation, specifically the need to read domestic legislation in line with international treaty obligations

Draft proposals, which will be put out for a three month consultation within weeks, indicate that the UK will remain a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. However, domestic courts would not be “automatically bound” to follow European Court rulings and ministers are also considering ways of guaranteeing the UK parliament’s sovereignty explicitly in law, the Sunday Times reported.

“We would make clear that the domestic courts are not automatically bound to follow Strasbourg and will be free to reference other sources of law such as common law and rulings from other Commonwealth countries when formulating judgments,” a draft of the plan seen by the newspaper says.

Independent 2015/11/08: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-to-tell-judges-they-can-ignore-rulings-from-european-court-of-human-rights-a6726181.html
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by TriMonk3y on Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:12 pm

Its worth noting that the ECHR is 'owned' by the Council of Europe which is a completely different entity to the EU, with a different and bigger membership. That said the EU charter of fundamental rights pretty much mirrors the ECHR, and the EU is itself trying to gain membership of the ECHR. It is possible therefore that the UK could be in a perverse situation where it votes to stay in the EU, leave the Convention, but still be bound to it by virtue of its continuing EU membership.

We have a similar trading position to Switzerland here in Norway. Still not entirely sure it works other than that every time I import anything I get a bill for Norwegian sales tax and import duty which adds around 60% to the value of anything incoming. Bizarrely - not books, and it is a mortal sin to attempt to import potatoes. I digress again.

The other "interesting" point is that those who trade freely with the EU by agreement, but are not actually members (primarily Norway and Switzerland) are bound by most of its directives in return for access to the market, without having any say in their content and creation - not actually all that beneficial if what is craved is sovereignty.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:34 pm

If the original intention was to create a "United States of Europe", that single issue of sovereignty had to be dealt with first. The reality is that any time there is dis-harmony e.g. over financial inequalities, each government scuttles back behind its traditional border.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:54 pm

Having read the following item of news I have to agree we really, really, really need our fine legislation on human rights.

"The suspected leader of a huge Syrian migrant trafficking operation - arrested in Liverpool - is fighting extradition because of the poor state of prisons in Greece.
Jamal Owda, arrested on Wednesday morning at an asylum seeker centre on Greenbank Drive, close to Sefton Park, is set to claim his human rights will be breached."

In addition, I now think we should take at least 1 million refugees before Christmas - it is obvious they are all harmless folk running from oppression.

Also - he is claiming legal aid. So a big cheer for our lawyers who work tirelessly and unselfishly to provide this service. And let's not forget the fine state of our British prisons that cater for those refugees who have become criminals and, sadly, murderers.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Ivan on Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:15 pm

marcolucco. It would be nice if you revealed the source of that anecdote, so that we could judge for ourselves whether it came from a reputable publication or ‘The Daily Mail’.

Even if the story is true, are you offering it as a reason for abolishing (rather than maybe amending) the Human Rights Act? Mightn’t it be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water?
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:04 am

I believe The Guardian reported it. It appears to be authentic but of course when anything happens that seems to destroy our iron belief in the Human Rights Act then it MUST be a lie.

Ivan wrote:Even if the story is true, are you offering it as a reason for abolishing (rather than maybe amending) the Human Rights Act? Mightn’t it be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water?

A single instance is not, as you know, reason for abolishing anything. There are of course many instances, like the one quoted, which lead folk to think that the Act assists the wrong-doer more than the righteous. And we would not be throwing any babies out with bath water; I have already contended that in the UK we don't need an act that helps terrorists; we already have plenty of legal safeguards. In any case we are entering a time when such philanthropic considerations as Human Rights will be laid aside when those we try to protect bite off our hands.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:34 am

Prior to 1833, and William Wilberforce's intervention against slavery, most attempts to discuss "Human Rights" would have been met with stares of blank incomprehension. The general topic heading of this Cutting Edge subject is "Law and Order" which was understood by most to be protection of the interests of landowners, extending to the protection of British Merchants' rapacity overseas.

In modern times we may think we are better than that, but many of the world's problems right now are the progeny of Colonial attitudes and activities in the past.
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by marcolucco on Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:15 pm


oftenwrong wrote:In modern times we may think we are better than that, but many of the world's problems right now are the progeny of Colonial attitudes and activities in the past.  

Yes, we suffer from the sins of our fathers. But I find it annoying that we should want to apologise for what people did 100, 200, 300 years ago. When we gave our former colonies independence we often turned the most profitable parts of Africa into wildernesses, echoing Tacitus. Ludicrously we say sorry for being crusaders and slave traders. We aren't.

Our laudable efforts to regard, with Rousseau, all humans as equal and civilised falls flat in the face of reality, especially today. If we stopped talking about the human rights of terrorists....... ah, but that would cause the pillars of civilisation to crumble. It would be nice if just occasionally we treated the uncivilised in an uncivilised way. The only justification for acting noble is that there's a big divinity watching and judging. There isn't and the baddies, so far, are winning. They see our gentlemanly conduct - rightly - as weakness.



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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by Ivan on Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:17 am

This is what the Tories are itching to tear up.....  Mad


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrF4xn-WEAAX-xr.jpg
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

Post by boatlady on Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:53 am

On some levels, of course, they already have - they just want to avoid any possible legal challenges
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Micro-chip your children

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 02, 2017 7:56 pm

Hell, YES!
.... and have a facility to administer powerful electric shocks if they misbehave.

Who needs a TV to have fun?


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/janet-street-porter-apologises-over-nazi-comment-on-loose-women/ar-BBAB2zv?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp
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Re: Why do we need human rights anyway?

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