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If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

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If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:31 pm

Religious beliefs have all the hallmarks of paranoid delusion to me after all. We are and have long been told that we should "respect" a person's beliefs, why? I mean shouldn't what a person believes either be demonstrably deserving of respect or simply be rejected? We don't respect non-religious beliefs we know to be dubious or based on spurious reasoning, especially if those beliefs are harmful, racism, fascism, sexism, pick your ism and it is underpinned by the beliefs held. Why is it reasonable, or indeed is it at all reasonable, to presuppose religious beliefs should be respected? Isn't this just an attempt to lend the gravitas of an omnipotent omniscient deity's authority to human ideas and prejudices? A person's right to believe what ever they wish perhaps must be respected, but not the belief itself surely, I mean if a person wants to hold homophobic, racist or misogynistic beliefs should we respect that right, let alone the beliefs themselves.

Ultimately shouldn't the benchmark of allowing a belief to be held with impunity be whether it is of tangible benefit to most people, or at the very least be a belief that is innocuous?

Polygide asked me "who decides" when I said universal human rights were the only benchmark of any decent society. Well I don't think those basic human rights require subjective opinion do they? I mean the basic freedoms that underpin a decent free society should be self evident and independent of opinion or belief. This in a nutshell is why I can't respect any belief that discriminates in any way. If an all powerful deity wants things run his way then let him do it, why should I defer to someone because they have the astonishing arrogance to claim they're certain what this should be?
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Ivan on Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:19 pm

A couple of thoughts from Sam Harris on this topic:-

While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about. It is telling that this aura of nobility extends only to those faiths that still have many subscribers. Anyone caught worshipping Poseidon, even at sea, will be thought insane.” (from ‘Letter To A Christian Nation’, pp 67-68)
 
We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad’, ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional’…….Clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.” (from ‘The End Of Faith: Religion, Terror And the Future Of Reason’)
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:21 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
You either have rules and regulations or a free for all.

You can never have rules that are acceptable to everyone, take a hundred people and there would be several differing opinions on any matter put forward.

So you go by the majority and the rights of those against are compromised.

There is no way on earth that mankind can formulate a method of fairness to all.

Because not all want the same things and some things may impinge on the feelings of others.

So your idea regarding human rights falls at the first hurdle because not all human's rights and requirements can be catered for.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:40 pm

Ivan,
Whilst there may not be physical evidence of a creator there is definately ample material edvidence.

There is no doubt that there are more problems to solve than have been solved regarding creation, however, the fact is that which is observable has to have an origin and when you consider the implications there must also be intelligence involved and as I believe you cannot have intelligence without an intelligent being, then until such times as it is proven otherwise there is no alternative.

There is no chance of doing so in my opinion and I base my faith in the Bible account of creation although not in fact in the manner many portray it.

It is self evident that the dinosaurs existed long before the Bible events and this was a problem along with other previous life forms etc;

However, when you consider the complex make up of the dinosaurs it strenghthens the view that intelligence was involved in their being.

So whilst there is reason to apply some pressure on the contents of the Bible as we read it, there must be a missing link that will explain the whys and wherefores etc; and I look forward to the day when this is explained.

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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:27 pm

polyglide wrote:So you go by the majority and the rights of those against are compromised.

This is a well known logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum, the opinion of the majority didn't make the world flat did it? The purpose of human rights are quite specifically to protect the individual, you've actually described the exact opposite of what human rights are for, and how they are constructed and work.


Polyglide wrote:There is no way on earth that mankind can formulate a method of fairness to all. Because not all want the same things and some things may impinge on the feelings of others. So your idea regarding human rights falls at the first hurdle because not all human's rights and requirements can be catered for.  

I'm afraid you simply don't understand what human rights are, or what they aim to achieve, as by their very nature they have to be universal. It doesn't matter what people desire, believe, or want, the rights are to protect the individual, not what they think, desire or believe. I posted a link to the European Convention on Human Rights, I strongly suggest you read it if you want to discuss this topic as what you've posted is nonsense I'm afraid. I also suspect you know your religions more insidious prejudices would be neutered by such rights and as one example gay people would have the same rights as heterosexual people no matter how strongly some religious people think they have the right to discriminate against them. The same rights protect your right to believe what you wish, though of course would not afford you any rights whatsoever based on that belief, something you don't seem to grasp.

Rights of this sort can be shown to be mutually beneficial, even though they are designed to protect the rights of the individual as they stop exactly the kind of bigotry and prejudice you have suggested elsewhere should be allowed. Like the Christian couple who refused to let a room to a couple because they gay.


Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:31 pm

Ivan wrote:A couple of thoughts from Sam Harris on this topic:-

While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about.

Indeed, another quote I read recently summed it up rather well I thought, "if you talk to god your religious, but if he talks back then you're mad." I mean voices in your head, from a supernatural being, that can't be detected in any meaningful or empirical way, and reacting with anger and even violence when your claims are challenged, and of course the unbelievable mental gymnastics used to rationalise the belief when all the evidence suggests it's erroneous. In any other sphere those would be called symptoms of paranoid delusion.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:56 am

Dr, Sheldon,
The evidence for creation is beyond dispute, how or why may be disputable but what exists must have been created by one means or another.

It matters not who says what, there is no way on earth that humans can formulate a means of conducting mankind's affairs that is fair to everyone.

The only way this could be done is if everyone thought alike and all wanted the same things.

Call fair, Human Rights and the same applies.

There has never been nor ever will be, until God takes over, a human race that has had a society in which there has never been conflict of one kind or another.

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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:52 pm

There isn't a shred of evidence for creationism. Simply claiming it is not evidence, though you don't seem able to differentiate between theistic claims and empirical evidence. 

Human rights can and are fair and just,  they already exist so it is demonstrably false to claim otherwise. The fact that they don't indulge your own subjective beliefs and opinions does not make them unfair or unjust. 

They exist to protect the rights of the individual. Religion can play no part in this as it involves subjective beliefs and even on occasions prejudice against people such as gay men and women, or demands discrimination against women, or even the abuse of children's rights with acts like fgm.

The rights are designed to apply equally to everyone. That's what makes them fair and just. No one has a right that is denied to another,  that's both just and fair.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:02 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
Then explain where everything originated and from what.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:32 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                Then explain where everything originated and from what.
Don't be obtuse, that's argumentum ad ignorantiam. I don't need to explain things in order to reject superstitious tales of magic from the bronze age.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:01 pm

Satan
noun
the chief evil spirit; the great adversary of humanity; the devil.

original sin
the tendency to evil supposedly innate in all human beings,

superstition
noun
excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural.

Now lets take a look at this:

paranoia
noun
a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically worked into an organized system.


You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

God drowns the whole earth. In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and all animals and plants. Only a single family survives. - See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.8iojK7X0.dpuf

God kills half a million people. In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites. - See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.8iojK7X0.dpuf

God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn. In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn. - See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.8iojK7X0.dpuf

God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them. In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them. - See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.8iojK7X0.dpuf

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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:57 pm

Dr, Shedlon,
It is no good keep saying God did this God did that, God only did and does that which is best for his people, just as any father would for his child.

God only does that which is in the best interests of his people and in doing so uses the methods he feels best, these may not appear not to our understanding or liking.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:03 pm

You may think murder and genocide are good for people,  I must disagree. You may think torturing and murdering a baby to punish the father for adultery is acting for the good, I must disagree.  

One last point, I'm not saying god did any of these things, your bible is saying this. I'm an atheist and don't believe God exists,  the points I have raised are hypothetical as far as I am concerned.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:15 pm

Dr, Shedlon,
I accept that you do not believe in God and that you have no reason to believe the said actions of God.

I would not disagree with the fact that it takes some understanding, even when you do not believe, regarding many of the Bible contents because anyone who does not have great faith that God will only do the correct thing under the prevailing circumumstances accept what appears to us as humans to say the least odd in some circumstances.



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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:28 pm

The claim is directly contradicted by your own bible. The passages cited are not at vague or ambiguous. Genocide and mass murder are heinous crimes, even more so if committed by a being with limitless choice.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:31 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
I would rather accept the findings of God as opposed to man who has made a mess of all he has been involved in for any length of time.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:36 pm

What? You've lost me now. Let's just stick to the thread topic.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:47 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
I dispute that world wide theists are a majority.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:00 pm

Of course you do, but you're wrong, laughably so. Do you even intend to visit this planet?
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:50 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
As far as I am concerned I believe in one God, theists believe the same, many religions believe in many which is not the same and there are far more of the latter.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:22 pm

Again I'm not surprised you think this, I do wonder, again, if you are planning a visit to this planet?
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:14 pm

Theistic demographics...

HERE

HERE

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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:16 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                As far as I am concerned I believe in one God, theists believe the same, many religions believe in many which is not the same and there are far more of the latter.

Polytheists believe in more than one deity, monotheistic in just a single deity. The latter group represent the majority of the world's population, BUT THEY ARE ALL THEISTS.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:10 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
Of the 12 main religious organisations several do not believe in a God as the creator of all things.

Just for example, Buddhism does not include the worship of a God, Hinduism believe in Moksha etc;

There has never been any sientific hypothesis carried out to establish if those who say they believe in a God actually do.


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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:29 pm

The majority of people claim to be theists. All the research shows this. Assuming they've lied is a rather preposterous stance. Though you do seem to revel in making such claims. I posted links to how religious demographics have been researched. You've ignored them of course C'est la vise
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:03 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
I have not ignored them I do not believe them.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:33 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                I have not ignored them I do not believe them.

Of course you don't there is no fact, no evidence, and no truth you won't deny and ignore, but that doesn't alter the facts or negate what the evidence shows. The majority of people in the world are theists, a child could do the maths.

Christianity 2.2 billion
Islam 1.6 billion
Hinduism 1 billion

They break down further from there, but that clearly represents a majority of the world's population, denying this is asinine, even for you.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:51 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
I have looked up the numbers regarding this matter and everyone agrees that the figures that are claimed by the census method etc; cannot be confirmed.

You are 100,000 out in the case of Christianity and the others are in dispute, those who deal in these matters all agree it is impossible to tell who is telling the truth and who is not, regarding their religious claims.

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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:06 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
 I have looked up the numbers regarding this matter and everyone agrees that the figures that are claimed by the census method etc; cannot be confirmed.

Looked up where, who agrees? You're just making this up again, dear oh dear.

Polyglide wrote: You are 100,000 out in the case of Christianity

The census shows christian adherents worldwide at 2.2 billion you clown, so how does 100,000 either way matter? Besides you have just made up that asinine claim anyway, good God you have no shame do you.

Polyglide wrote:and the others are in dispute,
No they're not.

Polyglide wrote:those who deal in these matters all agree it is impossible to tell who is telling the truth and who is not, regarding their religious claims.

So there is no evidence that anyone has lied then, and no reason at all to think they have.

"84 percent of the world population has faith; a third are Christian. “Worldwide, more than eight-in-ten people identify with a religious group,” says a new comprehensive demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories conducted by the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life.23 Dec 2012"

LINK HERE
Note the pie chart in the link..



Now a second source, Wikipedia.
LINK HERE

Another source quoting the Pew research:

"“Worldwide, more than eight-in-ten people identify with a religious group,” says a new comprehensive demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.

“There are 5.8 billion religiously affiliated adults and children around the globe, representing 84 percent of the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion,” the analysis states."
LINK HERE

Now lets see you show some research and even one source for your claim? Rolling Eyes
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:40 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
The world population is 7.3 billion.

The different faiths many not actaully believing in one God, which is what I accept as being religious are:

Candombe
Islam
Judaism
Rastafari
Sikhism
Initarianism
Baha'i
Christainity
Jainism
Mormonism
Santeria
Spiritalism
Zoroastrianism
Buddhism
Hinduism
Jehovas Witnesses
Paganism
Shinto
Taoism.

Many do not believe in one God and are therefore not religious as far as I am concerned they are members of idolitory sects.

It would be interesting to know just how every country concerned was evaluated as to who was memebers etc; and how they evaluated the worth of the results.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:08 pm

Unfortunately you haven't attached any figures to that irrelevant list of religious beliefs, so it is pretty meaningless. IS this a wind up, seriously? Lets try pictures as I know words tend to flummox you:



You do understand those percentages in that pie chart are of the worlds population, don't you? sarcasm You see the 8% percent labelled "other religions"? That's your list see, my oh my I really hope you are actually trying to wind me up as the alternative here is too scary to contemplate.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:56 pm

Polyglide wrote:Many do not believe in one God and are therefore not religious as far as I am concerned

Sadly for your nonsensical claim (and your characteristic hubris) we have a dictionary definition for religion, and for theism, and you don't get to redefine these words, a fact that your posts have struggled to grasp I grant you. Religion does not necessarily need to be theistic anyway. The asinine claim you are making is that the majority of the world's population are not theists. In fact the majority are monotheists, over 50% of the world's population are adherents of Islam and Christianity, with Hinduism claiming another 15%, Hindus are non-dualists who believe that their many gods are actually different manifestations of the same deity, and so Hindus are also strictly speaking monotheists, but they are most definitely theists.

Religion as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary.
MASS NOUN
1 The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
COUNT NOUN
1 A particular system of faith and worship

Yet again it appears you and the Oxford English dictionary are entirely at odds, and despite your massive confidence in your own opinion I'm afraid I'm going to defer to the OED here again.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:38 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
My dictionary says in particular ONE GOD. and as far as I am concerned the only God is God as defined in the BIBLE.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:09 pm

PolyTHEIST - monoTHEIST. 

I quite specifically said theist. Theism is defined as a belief in a god or gods.  Your endless babble is pointless as you are arbitrarily trying to redefine the dictionary and misrepresent me, and all to avoid accepting the fact that he majority of the world's population are theists. 

You're wrong on this one, but as always your dogged refusal to ever admit an error has lost the original point. Luckily it's in the thread title.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:48 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:PolyTHEIST - monoTHEIST. 

I quite specifically said theist. Theism is defined as a belief in a god or gods.  Your endless babble is pointless as you are arbitrarily trying to redefine the dictionary and misrepresent me, and all to avoid accepting the fact that he majority of the world's population are theists. 

You're wrong on this one, but as always your dogged refusal to ever admit an error has lost the original point. Luckily it's in the thread title.

Let's try pictures again: You see that Muslims and Christians (both monotheists btw Wink ) alone represent a majority of the global population, 54.7%?

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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:29 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
To get back to the point in question.

Should all those who do not believe in God be locked up and gived medical help?.


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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:24 pm

That's not the thread question though.

Have you any thoughts on the thread title? After all we lock people up for having unshakable faith in irrational and illogical claims that don't match the facts, can't be evidenced, are deeply implausible, and all the evidence suggests are delusions, religion seems to be a unique exception to this. Why would someone who rejects the existence of a deity need to be "gived" (sic) medical help? Do you think that you need medical help for the thousands of deities whose existence you reject?
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:09 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
I do not think anyone other than those who unfortunately suffer from reconisable illnesses need medical help.

What I do think is that those who are being mislead by scientists and false religions need a wake up call before it is too late.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:15 pm

 by polyglide on Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:29 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
To get back to the point in question.

Should all those who do not believe in God be locked up and gived medical help?

 by polyglide Today at 4:09 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
I do not think anyone other than those who unfortunately suffer from reconisable illnesses need medical help

Which is it?
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

Post by polyglide on Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:19 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
The first was a question to you, the latter my own feelings.
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Re: If theists were a minority instead of a majority would society lock them up under psychiatric care?

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