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Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

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Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by witchfinder on Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo" has published pictures of the prophet Mohamed as a cartoon character in its latest issue, the magazine also stated that the prophet was the editor in chief for that particular issue, the result is the petrol bombing and destruction of the magazines offices in Paris.

It is strictly forbidden in Islam for anyone to make or create images of the prophet Mohamed, to do so is regarded by Muslims to be disrespectful and is an insult, therefore one has to ask - why ?, why did this magazine feel it necessary to knowingly and deliberately upset a section of French society. ?

Personaly I am a none believer, I am from a Christian background, and though I will frequently criticise Islam, the Catholic Church, Jewish hard liners and American bible bashers, I would not go so far as to purposely disrespect or poke fun at someone elses beliefs, this is called tolerance.

I am glad we live in the United Kingdom where the preaching or publishing or promotion of religious hatred and intolerance is forbiden by law - in some nations you are allowed to preach hatred and hide behind the wall called "freedom of speech", in some nations there is no hiding place.

We have seen the reactions of some Muslims before when this has happened, it begs the question - was this magazine looking for publicity knowing they would attract attention, perhaps their sales figures were down.





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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:35 am

I may have entered this conversation too late to really make sense of what you are saying - it seems you may be wanting to say that science has spoiled the world; however, you have used as an example of a happier and simple time an activity (cookery) that depends fully on the application of scientific principles to succeed. In you analogy about putting the egg in the frying pan, you also need to explain what special conditions (a heat source for example) are required to render said egg palatable - this my friend is science

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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:39 am

polyglide wrote:DR, Sheldon,
                 I gave you credit for realising that a fire would be needed with the egg being fried, it just proves how wrong one can be.

                  As usual you miss the point in question.  

Your analogy was as puerile in its conception as it was asinine in its conclusions. My post was entirely sarcastic, it appears you alone missed this. Try re reading the other responses.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:45 am

Polyglide wrote: I should not have to explain just what the present situation is, if you read the news and consider what is in the papers every day one can only come to tone conclusion.

We have made a right mess of what could have been a paradise for all.

That's your opinion. Amazingly it's not shared. Your claim is pure asumptiin based on your opinion formulated from subjective news stories.

Science can be utilised for good or bad ends. Science has enabled the alleviation of massive suffering and premature deaths. Your bias simply blinds you, and leap at supernatural causation without evidence.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:10 pm

boatlady i'm afraid to polyglide it is accident not science. Laughing Laughing
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:18 pm

stuart torr wrote:boatlady i'm afraid to polyglide it is accident not science. Laughing Laughing

Polyglide simply doesn't grasp what science is, how it works, it's significance to the natural world around us, or how it differs from fantasies and the ancient superstitions they're based on. If someone had asked me I'd have thought it genuinely impossible for someone in this country to reach the age of 80 and be so entirely ignorant of science and all that it entails, and that's even accounting for his ignorance being wilful on his part. It's truly astonishing. A much more damning indictment of faith based religion is hard to imagine.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:32 pm

I know Sheldon, it is hard to get your head round it is it not? how can someone not believe in science after all these years?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:03 pm

Well stu here's something else for him to mull over, the following is a list of things that are scientific theories, so in polyglide's eyes they're "just theories"

1. Planetary Motion
2. Universal Gravity
3. The Cell
4. Germs
5. Atoms
6. Big Bang
7. Climate Change
8. Vaccination
9. Plate tectonics
10. Radioactivity
11. Electromagnetism
12. Thermodynamics
13. Conservation of Mass and Energy
14. Molecular Bonds
15. Evolution

What a bizarre universe Poly must live in, is all I can say.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:08 pm

I am sure he will say that God invented them all Sheldon, what do you think?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:53 pm

stuart torr wrote:I am sure he will say that God invented them all Sheldon, what do you think?

Undoubtedly, but the point is he is subjectively rejecting one or two based solely on the fact they refute a bronze age creation myth. If someone is so blinded by dogma they can't see how absurdly subjective that is then there is I'm afraid little hope for them, but I find the idea they want to teach this rubbish to small children as part of their state funded science education is nothing short of child abuse.

My wife asked my grandson if he wanted a hot cross bun over Easter when he stayed over. He said no but said he knew why they were called hot cross buns. It was because Jesus died on the cross at Easter. I laughed and said no it's not, they're hot because they're baked in an oven and that makes them cross, then I made a mock angry face for him to emphasise what I meant. He laughed then gave a slightly distrustful look, but he believed me. I am still awaiting the fallout if he ever tells his teacher. Wicked I know, but luckily he's bright enough to fight the god botherer's off at some later date. Still it's infuriating to think of them stuffing small children's heads with their mumbo jumbo.

My brother in law is a teacher and he tells me he had to sit still while one of them gave a talk about religion to his class. It made his blood boil to listen to his charge be fed such claptrap passed of as fact.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:12 pm

I know what you mean because when my daughter comes over for access visits and goes on about what she has been taught in her religion class and I put her right I expect a letter from her school or phone call from her mum, and that makes me mad.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:12 pm

stuart torr wrote:I know what you mean because when my daughter comes over for access visits and goes on about what she has been taught in her religion class and I put her right I expect a letter from her school or phone call from her mum, and that makes me mad.

Well the eldest lad is only seven but he's quite bright and full of questions, and I never miss an opportunity to plant the seed of doubt albeit it in a surreptitious way. He often asks about dates and historical occurrences, so I gave him a chronology starting with the Gregorian calendar, and then when humans roughly fist evolved then the age of the earth, then the age of the universe. He seemed very curious especially when he saw the row of zeros after the age of the universe. That might prompt a few awkward questions the next time the god botherers try and fill his head with crap.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:27 pm

My daughter is the same Sheldon, and takes after me for speaking her mind, that is why when I go see her teachers I tell them what for.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:20 pm

stuart torr wrote:My daughter is the same Sheldon, and takes after me for speaking her mind, that is why when I go see her teachers I tell them what for.

My brother in law tells me that they're obliged to include a broad Christian "education" as part of the curriculum. Appalling really that in the 21st century we can think of no better way to instil morals into a child's education than to frighten them with Wink fantasies and superstitious myths about hell and damnation.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:18 pm

boatlady,
I doubt very much if the isolated tribes who have no modern technology have to worry about science explaining anything.

A person could very well live a full and happy life and never even think or consider science.

Technology has in many ways resulted in many of the best qualities in life being erroded.

Because you can say that a scientific expanation can be found for any matter in no way means you have to be aware of just what that means it makes no difference whatsoever.

I would think that the vast majority of humans could not care less how their beer was brewed or where their cigar came from they just enjoyed them.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:35 pm

A person could very well live a full and happy life and never even think or consider science. - true - but if they want to explain phenomena and duplicate results, they do have to use the scientific method - praying, meditating and chanting rarely does it
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:43 pm

polyglide wrote:boatlady,
           I doubt very much if the isolated tribes who have no modern technology have to worry about science explaining anything.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Like the cause of Malaria you mean? I have seldom anyone who is so often wrong on such a wide variety of topics.
           
A person could very well live a full and happy life and never even think or consider science.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Possibly, they could of course live linger happier lives with the help of science. They could also live long happy lives without ever hearing about religion, indeed many humans will have.
           
Technology has in many ways resulted in many of the best qualities in life being erroded.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:No it hasn't. Hitchen's razor - slash...
           

Because you can say that a scientific  expanation can be found for any matter  in no way means you have to be aware of just what that means it makes no difference whatsoever.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Can we have that in English please?

I would think that the vast majority of humans could not care less how their beer was brewed or where their cigar came from they just enjoyed them.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:They might not enjoy leprosy, or heart disease, or malaria quite as much, and there are scientific explanations of how to reduce the risk of getting those, and how to treat them if you're unlucky to get them. You god botherers have spent thousands of years bending the knee, navel gazing and praying, but it is science that cures disease and alleviates suffering.

We can all see the real reason you hate science, and that's because it's objective methods uncover facts that refute your bronze age superstition, and you really don't like it when the places your god is hiding are exposed and explained as having perfectly natural causation.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:53 am

Dr, Sheldon,
My remarks on the other posts apply.

Learn to read and understand what is actually written instead of you thinking what is written.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:09 pm

Poly.

if you can't answer why bother posting at all? Also if you keep claiming everyone can't understand you yet never explain what you think has been misunderstood, or why? It's clearly very unlikely to be everyone else's fault they don't understand what on earth you're talking about.

Try offering something cogent instead of childish tantrums and this discussion might not pass you by so much.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:36 am

boatlady,
I think most people are not worried in the least about the origin of anything, the majority in the world today are too self interested in some cases actually surviving and the extreem cases of grabbing everything they can.

Sad world.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:32 pm

polyglide wrote:boatlady,
           I think most people are not worried in the least about the origin of anything, the majority in the world today are too self interested in some cases actually surviving and the extreem cases of grabbing everything they can.

           Sad world.

How exactly would you claim to know what most people think? It sounds like a very dubious claim to me, as I have found most people I encounter to be generous and ready to help others in need. Some friends and I arranged a charity cycle ride last year to help raise money for the charity ActionAid, we collected enough money to pay for a clean water project for a group of villages in Africa that was completed just recently and will save hundreds of lives every year. It seems your religion is fostering a very cynical attitude toward your fellow humans.


Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:45 pm

polyglide wrote:boatlady,
           I think most people are not worried in the least about the origin of anything, the majority in the world today are too self interested in some cases actually surviving and the extreem cases of grabbing everything they can. Sad world.

Since you never bothered to evidence your claim, and I found it quite dubious, I thought I'd do a little quick research myself. It appears you're very wrong yet again in your assumption.

LINK: http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/cpid/42#.VTpHrSFViko

"Total giving to charitable organizations was $335.17 billion in 2013 (about 2% of GDP). This is an increase of 4.4% from 2012. Although this is the fourth straight year that giving has increased, it is still not at the pre-recession level of $349.5 billion seen in 2007.
As in previous years, the majority of that giving came from individuals. Specifically, individuals gave roughly $240.6 billion (72%) representing a 4.2% increase over 2012. And it was the additional $9.69 billion in gifts made by individuals that was the main reason overall giving is up in 2013.
Giving by bequest was $27.73 billion (up 8.7%), foundations gave $48.96 billion (up 5.7%), and corporations donated $17.88 billion (down 1.9%)."

This link https://www.cafonline.org/PDF/UKGiving2012Summary.pdf is to a report that gives statistics for UK charity giving, and again it shows your claim to be nonsense.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Thank-you Sheldon for standing up on my behalf,when you did not know my bank account.
I actually give to three charities per month via direct debits,and the one that has increased most is the one to the NSPCC, why do theists automatically assume that we atheists do nothing for charities? or normal people are a money grabbing bunch?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:23 pm

stuart torr wrote:Thank-you Sheldon for standing up on my behalf,when you did not know my bank account.
I actually give to three charities per month via direct debits,and the one that has increased most is the one to the NSPCC, why do theists automatically assume that we atheists do nothing for charities? or normal people are a money grabbing bunch?

I'm not sure they all do stu, but Polglide clearly thinks moral relativity can only result in chaos, anarchy, heinous evil and avarice. This is not a unique view among theists of course. You must have noticed how like some other theists who think this he can only view the past through rose tinted spectacles, that's why he continuously decries the morals of the contemporary world. In order for his beliefs to make sense people must be intrinsically bad without his religion to correct them, and good decent morals can only come from his chosen deity.

This of course leaves him with something of a problem as all the evidence shows that our morals are intrinsically good, that empathy and altruism are defining human characteristics at least as much as greed and avarice. That when we create societies that are fair and just and where people have adequate food, clothing and shelter those societies are usually produce people who on the whole are the same. Throw in a decent education and stop teaching mumbo jumbo superstitions to children and I suspect it would improve even more.

The final nail in the theistic claim to moral ascendancy is that all research into prison demographics shows atheist are slightly unrepresented, and of course the endemic child abuse and appalling attempts to cover it up within the RCC hardly point to the moral ascendancy they have for may tears claimed. His attempts to distance himself from established religions of course is just an arbitrary attempt to rationalise all this using the No True Scotsman fallacy.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:54 pm

Stu,
The whole point is the majority of people and not the minority.

I give to two charities, also by direct debit.

One is for £8 per month and the other £3.50 a month one for a hospice and the other for Candis, the latter gives to several charities.

That is not the point.

There are 7.244 million people on earth and to suggest that even 10% of them give to a charity would be stupid, the vast majority are in need of charity.

I have no regard for anyone or any religion that harbours the evil people within our ranks.

There are evil doers in every aspect of life that does not mean that that they who are members of any organisation for evil purposes make the organisations intentions or the true members in any way dishonest, unless they harbour them knowingly.

There has been cover ups and there still is and always will be in all walks of life.

The fact is that there is enough food and water in the world for everyone to have a reasonable life, the vast majority have not, this leads to the conclusion that I said in the first place, the vast majority are selfish, or all in the world would have both.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:23 pm

If you knew how many billions were raised for charity each year polyglide you would know that more than ten per cent of people donate to charities, the trouble with you is that you always look on the dark side of life.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:44 pm

And meanwhile, back at the thread - what do we feel about finding a balance between freedom of expression and freedom from insults?

Is it OK to say anything at all as long as you believe it, or should we have consideration for the feelings of others who may be hearing what we say?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:47 pm

Stu, This is the third time I have replied to this and each time it has not gone through I hope this one does.

I know many people donate and do many things for charity.

That was not the point in question, those involved are far from being the majority and that was the point.

I have dealt with people from all walks of life during my working life and found the majority of those who have the most care the less, some pretend but it is the grass root people who have the real feelings and do the most good and care the most.

If people were so caring why would children, even in England, be starving and parents having to attend food banks ? etc;


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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:56 pm

boatlady,
Of course we should have feelings for others based on if they are capable of feelings themselves for others.

There are many ways to insult and annoy and my own thought on the matter is based on who is involved and how they behave themselves.

Have to go my eyes are telling me I have had enough for today.

regards.



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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:01 pm

There are many ways to insult and annoy
How true

sunny
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:04 pm

boatlady wrote:And meanwhile, back at the thread - what do we feel about finding a balance between freedom of expression and freedom from insults?

Is it OK to say anything at all as long as you believe it, or should we have consideration for the feelings of others who may be hearing what we say?

Well defamation is an obvious line, and I think anything that incites prejudice or hatred against someone or some group is also unacceptable. However no belief idea or claim should be beyond criticism, and as long as the criticism isn't aimed at the person or designed to invoke hatred or prejudice against the believer rather than the beliefs then I think it's acceptable.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:53 pm

Polyglide wrote:The fact is that there is enough food and water in the world for everyone to have a reasonable life, the vast majority have not, this leads to the conclusion that I said in the first place, the vast majority are selfish, or all in the world would have both.

There is demonstrably a shortage in most parts of the world which are undeveloped of clean drinking water, and it's far from simple to solve this problem. The fact is that most of the world's wealth is in the hands of a very tiny fraction of the world's population in the developed countries. Your conclusion is demonstrably false, and I searched for just a few seconds online for the information that showed it to be so, you have of course simply ignored it completely and repeated your erroneous claim, this time accompanying it with a second false claim you're yet again trying to pass off as "evidence."

Polyglide wrote:That was not the point in question, those involved are far from being the majority and that was the point.

You have shown no evidence for this claim.

Polygllide wrote: I have dealt with people from all walks of life during my working life and found the majority of those who have the most care the less,

I tire of pointing this out to you but your personal experience being extended to encompass a demographic you can't possibly know enough about negates this claim, it's nonsense to point to a few people you know and then extend that to many thousands or even hundreds of people. Besides you have claimed in this post that the majority of people are not charitable, so what does a claim about a small minority contribute to your claim?

Polyglide wrote:it is the grass root people who have the real feelings and do the most good and care the most.

This roundly contradicts your earlier claim that the majority of people are not charitable? Your argument here is becoming more than a little confused.

Polyglide wrote: If people were so caring why would children, even in England, be starving and parents having to attend food banks ? etc;

Where is it you think the food in charity food banks comes from? You don't seem to have a cogent grasp of what you're trying to say here, it's obvious you want to believe that people are on the whole uncharitable but nothing you've claimed adds credence to that claim, and there is little in your post that could conceivably be called proper evidence.

What for instance is the annual figure donated to charity in the UK? How many people give both time and money each year to help others. Try citing some research that actually evidences your claim that these numbers are a minority of the uk population, or for the developed countries in general. Again I actually did this in my post and you've simply ignored it and repeated your claims. I know you have a problem with people disagreeing with you but ignoring them will just not add weight to your claims, quite the opposite.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:55 pm

Recently, a politician was forced to issue a formal apology because she called Ed Miliband a Jew - what about that was offensive, I ask myself?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:56 pm

boatlady wrote:Recently, a politician was forced to issue a formal apology because she called Ed Miliband a Jew - what about that was offensive, I ask myself?

What was the context?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:56 am

Said she would not vote for the Jew Miliband
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:26 am

A press report of the incident: http://metro.co.uk/2015/04/27/a-tory-candidate-has-apologised-after-referring-to-ed-miliband-as-the-jew-5168764/

We made a rod for our own backs with the introduction of "PC".
You can no longer call a spade a spade unless the context clearly excludes any possibility of referring to ethnic origin.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:18 am

boatlady wrote:Said she would not vote for the Jew Miliband

I'd say that crossed a line, and certainly warranted an apology. It sounds like the term has been used as a derogation to me and is antisemitic.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:30 pm

Many are arguing that the term is merely descriptive.
I tend to share your view that it is used as a derogatory and antisemitic term; however, this is a matter for individual interpretation to some degree - which is why maybe the very laudable intention to examine language and seek not to give offence becomes embroiled in so many grievous quarrels.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:14 pm

To be honest I couldn't see what the word would be used in a sentence that was already pejorative, other than to add further insult. I may be wrong of course, but at the very least it was poor judgment.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:16 pm

Extremely bad judgement Sheldon, we do have to be very careful with what we say or print on the PC, as so many things/words can be taken the wrong way.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:57 am

Stu,
boatlady's statement could only be taken as wrong in any way if it implied being a Jew was in any way objectional.

It is like saying I would not vote for the Joe Brown the baker.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:57 pm

clearly you did not read OWs post Polyglide,read and think again.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

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