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What now for Labour? (Part 2)

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What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Penderyn on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:52 pm

Hmm. Accustomed though we are to the Bullingdon grade of snobbery from our elected Government, intellectual snobbery also competes for attention. We know that whilst the Chancellor is willing to sell us what already belonged to us, he still wouldn't let us past his front door at any price.

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:06 pm

Honesty isn't a top requirement in politics.
marcolucco. I couldn’t agree less with that statement. Yes, plenty of politicians have told lies (though not on the industrial scale of Cameron), but once someone has told you a lie, how do you know whether to believe anything they say in future? Isn’t that what provokes so much cynicism about our elected representatives? Maybe Jeremy Corbyn’s honesty offers hope of a new kind of politics.

Do we need to spend billions on nuclear weapons? Are they of any use against the ISIS maniacs? Why do only 2 of the 28 EU countries – Britain and France – feel the need to have them? Even Enoch Powell was against them, saying that only an insane person would ever use them. Personally I think the Tories are a bigger threat to national security – cutting police and armed forces and closing fire stations – than someone who isn’t prepared to use nuclear weapons.

I also prefer to see good spelling and punctuation, and I agree that well-written messages, which have been checked before they are posted, show respect for the reader. I also wince when I see the plural of Tory written as Tory’s instead of Tories, and I even started a thread on the importance (or otherwise) of the apostrophe:-

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However, as an administrator of this forum, I suppose I’m in a privileged position in that I’m aware that at least one frequent poster (not a user of the politics board) is visually impaired and because of that sometimes falls down on basic English. There may be others who have similar difficulties which I don’t know about. Does that somehow invalidate their opinions? I don’t think so, and I suggest we should stick to criticising content rather than presentation.

Having said that, I feel I must do my own share of nit-picking. Our house rules ask members to post in any colour other than red, since we use that to show when a message has been moderated. Thanks for your co-operation.

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You and I last corresponded in October 2011, when someone who called himself ‘chessplayer’ wished to contact you. I remember you from MSN and the original Cutting Edge (with ProBoards) as a courteous person. I hope you will show that same politeness towards those on this forum who may not, for one reason or another, be intellectuals - or even grammar fascists - but who, in my opinion at least, have their hearts in the right place.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:41 am

Thank you for your instruction, Ivan. A novice takes time to adjust to a new machine. I am a strong believer in courteous debate but a little demon in me also believes in "nemo me impune lacessit." I am sure you think likewise. I will flow with kindness in return for a modicum of respect. Incorrect grammar couched in courteous language will draw no comment from me. Nor did it in the forum we once shared.

When I say that honesty is not a top requirement in politics I am making an observation on what is. There's little to disagree about here unless you are erroneously thinking I am applauding dishonesty in politicians. Politicians for the most part serve their own interests and if they can do that while appearing to serve the interests of the electorate, then they are doing well. The exceptions are shining and few and I agree that Jeremy Corbyn looks like one of those shining exceptions. You are right in saying that the recognition of dishonesty in politics provokes general cynicism - which is another way of making the statement I made.
In another time, in another place, Jeremy might serve us well; as the small voice of sincerity in the midst of terror, he is - sadly - out of place and out of his depth. Someone who has no qualms about using a gun will - again sadly -serve us better - for now. When all men are brothers and the lion lies down with the lamb a Corbyn will do nicely. Making the lamb lie down with the lion simply ensures that the lamb won't get much sleep - and neither will we if Jeremy is king. I don't approve of this; I deplore it but I accept reality.


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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:46 pm

"As for your puerility..."

Why do I get this feeling that , were I to know what it meant, I should be mortally offended...?  Smile
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:13 pm

marcolucco wrote:Thank you, redflag, for sharing what seems to be your thoughts. I see you are a keen student of grammar. If I am correct in my translation of your post it troubles you that Mr. Cameron would be unable to organise some festivity in a brewery. Since he will never be required to demonstrate this skill you should stop fretting.
Have you considered letting "the people of the UK" know what you know about the machinations of the "rich and wealthy"?  Perhaps if you write a letter to Jeremy he will raise the matter at PM's Question Time, and don't forget to mention " the sick disabled".


Seems somonone stumbled out of bed and landed straight on their Sarcasm/faceitious bone! While my grammer as you so graciously point out may not be up your standards - I feel it only fair to comment that your manners are far from gentlemanly.... Ok so now side stepping the round of insults and getting down to manner at hand which is as you state in your post (however uncivillised your tone!) Organising a P*** up in a brewery is an expression and yes we may never actually see Cameron utillise this skill, but we do need to see him organise this country and as you are unable to make the connection, allow me to make it for you. The skill required to organise aforemention P*** up would be for most easy, if by observation we gauge that Cameron is unable to do this what chance does he have of running the UK.

For the second section of your post either you have been living on another planet for the past 5+ years or you have never once seen any form of media on the plight of the Elderly, Sick, low Paid or anyone else that the current government likes to take the occassional hob nail boot too! If this is the case here is the cliff notes version for you Elderly, Sick under 25's low paid have all been Royally F**ked by the current governemnt... Meanwhile in doing a damn good impersation of an ass backward version of Robin Hood he took from the needy and gave to the Rich - Ok so are we now up to speed? Again I feel the need to call into question your ungentlemanly manner Marcolucco making the sick, Elderly, Low paid etc the punchline to be used at your disposal WHO ARE YOU? IAN DUNCAN SMITH?

And finally just to clarify on my original post as in all your sarcasm and failed attempts to discredit my post by attempting such traits that should only be demonstrated by David Copperfield... (You know the Illisonist guy that does something with one had and has everyones attension while the other creating the effect and fooling the audience into belief) Austerity and all its cruel and horrible facets has not and will not work to bring the UK out of the god forsakken mess that the bankers left us in in 2008. This view has been indicated by several of the worlds leading Economists so where is the reasoning for this extreme tactic when it serves no other function than to be used as battering ram for Elderly, Disabled, Sick, Low Paid etc..
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:42 pm

Hi Red, nice to see you again - you've been quiet lately.
I think Corbyn is coming in lately for a battering from the 'clever' people - and it does make some of us feel rather cross - but there you go, there'll always be people who'd rather sound clever than make a positive contribution - myself, I think it's early days for him and he's made a few mistakes, but I think he may be the first politician in my lifetime to seriously attempt to do consensus politics so I guess he will make the occasional boob - and we have to remember there's lots just longing to see him fail.
In relation to the muddle over the Paris massacre, as a pacifist he won't have a ready simple response to this kind of violence because, as a pacifist, he understands that violence is not a simple issue and so can't have a simple solution - after all if bombing was effective against terrorism we'd have run out of terrorists about 10 years ago and world peace would have broken out, but of course violence doesn't solve violence - it increases it.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Claudine on Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:07 pm

Corbyn is doing well because he is a man of principle and even those who don't agree with his principles can see his sincerity.

Both Corbyn and the party need to keep the goal at the forefront of their minds - namely to defeat this cabal we call a government. They need to stay on message and not be distracted by some of the dissenting voices within.

I went to listen to Corbyn speak before the leadership election, when he had no idea that he would be leader. He is a man of deep principle, a coherent & passionate speaker and he is a Labour man through and through. That was completely evident. He now has a good team around him and he is at the beginning of his leadership. He's on the right road so let's not get distracted by this rabid right-wing media and think of the end game.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:32 pm

If the Tories' propaganda machine wasn't so vociferous about Mr Corbyn's apparent defects, we might think they weren't concerned about him.  But they are.  Very much so.

Wonder why?  Perhaps he is regarded as a threat to their current, but perhaps uncertain dominance.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:01 pm

Hello redflag, I apologise for my manners but I was going on the assumption that when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I managed to work out for myself what you were saying about Cameron and the brewery. Whether we like it or not his apparent lack of basic skills has brought him the number one post. The same can be said about Corbyn. Perhaps the fault lies with the British people.

It is sad to hear that the ill, the elderly and even the under-25s have been sexually assaulted by the present Government. Were they living in paradise under Blair and Brown? Do you really think there are fundamental differences between a rich Tony Bair and a rich David Cameron. In Scotland we blame England for all our ills and people shout in the same way as you do about injustices. It is good to have our villains to throw stones at but when we examine the realities of any situation we find lies, damned lies and statistics; we find that one newspaper shouts "Yes!" and another shouts "No!" over the same incident.
I do not share your dislike for political personalities. I had a great admiration for both Wilson and Thatcher. Discussing her with people from Germany and Russia I found she was much admired. American friends considered her a supreme leader. History will probably accord her that honour. Some folk here saw her as the wicked witch. The truth is that people have in them good and bad; Blair did some excellent things as Prime Minister and some disastrous things. I cannot subscribe to the silly idea that all Tories are evil and all Labourites are good. They are not. And, incidentally, my own background was a million miles from aristocracy.

Austerity is one way of looking for economic solutions. Selling off the family silver is another, which Gordon tried. Greece, I think, would be happy to be in our situation but for them it is rather late. The money that pays for your poor, your sick, your aged and your unemployed does not come from good intentions.

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:14 pm




boatlady wrote:In relation to the muddle over the Paris massacre, as a pacifist he won't have a ready simple response to this kind of violence because, as a pacifist, he understands that violence is not a simple issue and so can't have a simple solution - after all if bombing was effective against terrorism we'd have run out of terrorists about 10 years ago and world peace would have broken out, but of course violence doesn't solve violence - it increases it.

Jeremy Corbyn may not have a simple solution to the Paris atrocities but as a leader he has to forward something other than platitudes. It is wonderful that he "understands that violence is not a simple issue" but this esoteric understanding is of little consolation to people threatened with beheadings and bombs. One can dismiss retaliation as useless when one has an alterative. He has nothing to offer; which makes him a hopeless person to be in control of anything important.
Your own pronouncement on violence begetting violence suggests we should turn the other cheek. Had our predecessors done that we would all be fluent in German now and Judaism a distant memory.

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:18 pm

As Ken Dodd might say : " Being on this board is educational. It has certainly taught me a lesson..."     Smile
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:34 pm

What I always say is, we are all entitled to our own opinions - so long as we can express them with civility.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:06 pm

marcolucco wrote:Hello redflag, I apologise for my manners but I was going on the assumption that when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Not sure I understand your logic on that but I will point out to ASSUME anything only makes an Ass out of You and Me!

marcolucco wrote:I managed to work out for myself what you were saying about Cameron and the brewery. Whether we like it or not his apparent lack of basic skills has brought him the number one post. The same can be said about Corbyn. Perhaps the fault lies with the British people.

I would like to counter your claim and offer another theory, Cameron only won the last G.E due to the land slide victory of SNP here in Scotland as you will be aware taking all but 3 of the 59 seats. This undoubtedly had a knock on effect on the numbers game at the polling boths... England would not want to put a Scottish party in to power so opted for Conservative rule giving Cameron and Co Carte blanche on election day... As for Corbyne not having the ability to win the G.E election considering he was not even party leader as the stage I think it would be more than a Christmas miracle to have that happen!

marcolucco wrote:It is sad to hear that the ill, the elderly and even the under-25s have been sexually assaulted by the present Government. Were they living in paradise under Blair and Brown? Do you really think there are fundamental differences between a rich Tony Bair and a rich David Cameron. In Scotland we blame England for all our ills and people shout in the same way as you do about injustices. It is good to have our villains to throw stones at but when we examine the realities of any situation we find lies, damned lies and statistics; we find that one newspaper shouts "Yes!" and another shouts "No!" over the same incident.
     I do not share your dislike for political personalities. I had a great admiration for both Wilson and Thatcher. Discussing her with people from Germany and Russia I found she was much admired. American friends considered her a supreme leader. History will probably accord her that honour. Some folk here saw her as the wicked witch. The truth is that people have in them good and bad; Blair did some excellent things as Prime Minister and some disastrous things.  I cannot subscribe to the silly idea that all Tories are evil and all Labourites are good. They are not. And, incidentally, my own background was a million miles from aristocracy.

Austerity is one way of looking for economic solutions. Selling off the family silver is another, which Gordon tried. Greece, I think, would be happy to be in our situation but for them it is rather late. The money that pays for your poor, your sick, your aged and your unemployed does not come from good intentions.  


let me be clear on this I did not say that the Elderly, disabled, under 25's have been sexually assaulted by the by the current government I believe my words were "Elderly, Sick, low Paid or anyone else that the current government likes to take the occassional hob nail boot too!" Ok the fundamental differences as you refer to them are Blair offered more University places for those in lower income situations removing the class divide to an extent in doing so and opening up the education system in the process. Then there is also the re-shaping of our NHS waiting lists cut cosiderably, so that people could get the treatment necessay within a reasonable time frame Blair may not be too everyones liking, however he saw a way for the UK for move forwards and combined the best of left and right policies and for that he was pretty much publicly flogges as a result

Now Cameron on the other hand has slashed University places thanks in part to the lovely U-turn that the liberal Democrats pulled during the last GE. our NHS is now no longer healthy but is more like the sick who are statistics on its waiting list. Now I understand that the NHS has an abundance of problems not least the ever growing population, less money and a rife intake of immigrants/refugees bringing in diseases and conditions that this country has long since got rid of or never dealt with. All this being said the country and the things that make us are no longer recognisable due mainly to Camerons inabliltiy to run a P*ss up in a brewery let alone a country!

I am not really surprised to find that Thatcher is much liked in countries such as Germany & America. Germany introduced the horrific practise of Eugenics & America followed with it with such atrocities as the Tuskegee experiment... When they are happy to treat their own lower classes (and by this I mean the African American population) clearly they would like someone so cruel and vile as Thatcher in all her own atrocities... Russia is currently surporting Assad so I think that statement covers everything there!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:02 pm

And, in relation to the future of the Labour party?
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:44 pm

redflag wrote:Not sure I understand your logic on that but I will point out to ASSUME anything only makes an Ass out of You and Me!
Interesting point, redflag. In advanced mathematics it is standard practice to make an assumption and then test it. Just one of the many instances where assumptions can be useful! Your conclusion is harsh and without basis.

I said that Corbyn reached the leadership (number one post) of Labour. The Christmas miracles are your own invention.


redflag wrote:Blair offered more University places for those in lower income situations removing the class divide to an extent in doing so


Intelligent lower-income students have been able to go to university for a long time before Blair came. Increasing university places so that semi-literate students can study idiotic subjects is hardly to be commended.

I think Russia is right to support Assad. We were wrong to murder Saddam.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:50 pm

boatlady wrote:And, in relation to the future of the Labour party?

The points have a certain bearing on the Labour Party in that Jeremy Corbyn's attitude may exacerbate the situation we are in vis-a-vis our Middle East friends. It doesn't take a great prophet to see that Labour is doomed to serving in the shadows for many years.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:53 pm

That, sir, is your opinion, to which you are welcome
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:05 pm

marcolucco wrote:-
Jeremy Corbyn may not have a simple solution to the Paris atrocities but as a leader he has to forward something other than platitudes. It is wonderful that he "understands that violence is not a simple issue" but this esoteric understanding is of little consolation to people threatened with beheadings and bombs. One can dismiss retaliation as useless when one has an alternative.
The biggest factor in the defeat of the Plains Indians in the USA wasn’t the military. It was the virtual destruction of their food supply, the buffalo, during the 1870s. Maybe there’s a lesson in that on how to defeat the ISIS psychopaths. Yes, the Americans have started bombing the oil wells which they control, but how about a concerted effort to find out how they are financed and to do something about it? That might well be more popular with the British public than consigning more of our soldiers to an early grave.

Military intervention did liberate Kuwait from Saddam Hussein’s clutches in 1991, but it would appear to have done more harm than good in the Middle East ever since. If anything, it’s provoked more terrorism; who believes that the world is any safer now than it was on 12 September 2001? And I don’t think I’m alone in wondering that if politicians who voted for war were required to serve on the front line themselves, there might be less enthusiasm for wanting to police the world stage.

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:35 am

Nicely put. Ivan Smile
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:45 am

And Harry Patch.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:18 am

I think the analogy of the Plains Indians and ISIS is forced and false. You imply that military might solves nothing or makes matters worse. This is true in some cases but obviously not so in others. History speaks not in simplistic terms. Having said that, your suggestions are certainly good and one would hope that the powers that be are moving along the lines you wisely indicate.
The moving anti-war novels and the poems of the WW1 poets are impressive in their persuasive voice: war is an evil. There is another voice, however, that tells us that sometimes, evil people give us no choice at all but to defend ourselves. Christ advocated turning the other cheek but in that way we create triumphant monsters and lots of corpses, with turned cheeks.

ISIS strikes children; it calls babies "crusaders"; it moves indiscriminately through shopping centres, theatres, airports... killing for the sake of killing. The nobility of the Sioux had nothing in common with these brutes. I agree that dropping a few bombs in anger doesn't solve our problem. Nor does it help to say that the young killers are disenchanted and poor - some are highly educated and rich. Your splendid rhetoric would work where there is reason; against the unreasoning we may have to resort to the unthinkable, as we did over Hiroshima. Let us hope we can cast aside our silly political differences and forget our various borders to work in unity and defeat this plague.


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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:37 am

marcolucco wrote:
boatlady wrote:And, in relation to the future of the Labour party?

The points have a certain bearing on the Labour Party in that Jeremy Corbyn's attitude may exacerbate the situation we are in vis-a-vis our Middle East friends.  It doesn't take a great prophet to see that Labour is doomed to serving in the shadows for many years.

It seems to me that you are looking forward to the years that the UK will be under Tory rule, could that be this will the reason the SNP WILL give to the people of Scotland for another referendum for Independence knowing that they will not have to give the Scottish people the answers they were looking for before 18th September 2014.
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Great Minds

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:34 pm

marcolucco wrote:I think the analogy of the Plains Indians and ISIS is forced and false....
against the unreasoning we may have to resort to the unthinkable, as we did over Hiroshima.

Get in the queue:

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:32 pm

marcolucco wrote:-
I think the analogy of the Plains Indians and ISIS is forced and false. You imply that military might solves nothing or makes matters worse. This is true in some cases but obviously not so in others.
I wasn’t in any way comparing the Plains Indians with ISIS. I was making the point that there are sometimes more effective ways of defeating an enemy than relying on armed force, especially if nobody is prepared to put boots on the ground. And if you re-read my previous post, you will see that I was talking about the Middle East in recent decades, not the entire world throughout history.

Without wishing to depress my fellow Labour supporters on here, I agree that the party is likely to be in opposition for some time to come. I don’t think that’s because Corbyn is less ‘electable’ than Burnham, Cooper or Kendall. I do think a small reason for it is because who the media calls ‘the moderates’ (in reality, right-wingers who wish to continue with the neoliberal agenda of the last 35 years) won’t accept the outcome of party democracy.

However, the main reason the future looks gloomy for Labour is that because of mass immigration and terrorism, there is likely to be a swing to the right and ever more nationalism throughout Europe. (I fear that the fascist Marine Le Pen could well be elected French president in 2017. She wants to hold a referendum on restoring the death penalty - hardly a deterrent to suicide bombers – and which is a policy not allowed in any member country in the EU.) I hope I’m wrong, and UK voters have plenty of time to wake up to what Cameron and his cronies are doing to the NHS and the fabric of our society. If a week, as Harold Wilson told us, is a long time in politics, four and a half years is an eternity.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:01 pm

oftenwrong, I was looking at possible outcomes, not expressing any personal wish.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:04 pm

Being rational, redflag, I would much prefer Labour to be in charge in Scotland but they messed up. Nicola will use any excuse she can get to hold another referendum. Burns wrote of a "parcel of rogues in a nation" - he was far-sighted.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:31 pm

Ivan wrote:I wasn’t in any way comparing the Plains Indians with ISIS.
Yes, you chose an unfortunate illustration, Ivan. Your further points were well made.

The future looks gloomy for Labour if their views on immigration and terrorism do not match those of the public. We are in a democracy. Death penalty for terrorists? Hmm? Meanwhile nothing is done about the source of terror - those who radicalise. The death penalty for them might be a better answer but we've got too many civil rights lawyers and something called legal aid and "human" rights.



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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:31 am

marcolucco wrote:Being rational, redflag, I would much prefer Labour to be in charge in Scotland but they messed up. Nicola will use any excuse she can get to hold another referendum. Burns wrote of a "parcel of rogues in a nation" - he was far-sighted.


Labour did not mess up in Scotland BUT did take the the Scottish voters for granted, I agree Sturgeon will use anything to shout for another Section 30 Referendum in fact nothing will satisfy the SNP until they get Independece for Scotland whether or not its good for Scots.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:41 am

marcolucco wrote:The future looks gloomy for Labour if their views on immigration and terrorism do not match those of the public. We are in a democracy. Death penalty for terrorists? Hmm? Meanwhile nothing is done about the source of terror - those who radicalise. The death penalty for them might be a better answer but we've got too many civil rights lawyers and something called legal aid and "human" rights.

I think you have that wrong marcolucco, the future looks real nasty for the TORIES because of what they are doing to the people of the UK and the way people will look at davy boy taking us into another middle east war just take a look at what the UK thinks of Tony Blair.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Penderyn on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:46 pm

Since the only possible reason for making us pay to kill more people in the Middle East would seem to be to divide Labour, it would seem to me cheaper if Cameron bombed Mr Corbyn directly!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:48 pm

As you know, Redflag, politicians love an overseas adventure.  It distracts the voters from domestic troubles.  But once again the Sunday papers are reporting Tory MPs sleaze with mistresses on expenses, bullying, and a junior section out of control.

Penderyn, no need to be beastly to Mr. Corbyn - he has the entire Murdoch Empire to do that for him!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Penderyn on Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:33 pm

There was a very funny cartoon in the 'i' recently making fun of this, but I fear the readership was too dim, for the cartoonist seems to have been suppressed!
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:51 pm


Redflag wrote:I think you have that wrong marcolucco

I can only go on what I see. Experience and history are both good teachers. The circumstances of destroying ISIS are a bit different from the Blair situation. Despite what they were doing to the people of the UK, it seems that the same people put them into power. Odd, isn't it.


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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Penderyn on Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:02 pm

I was one of the countless people demonstrating against Blair's projected war-crime before it happened, and I think a lot of people just gave up when he ignored it.    Many of those who kept the criminal in power are still there, trying to sabotage Mr Corbyn.    Under the choose-a-fuhrer system democracy=disunity, and the Labourtories know how to exploit that.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:29 pm

trying to sabotage Mr Corbyn........................... he needs no assistance; he does an excellent job of self-sabotage when his lips move.

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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:50 am

marcolucco wrote:The future looks gloomy for Labour if their views on immigration and terrorism do not match those of the public. We are in a democracy. Death penalty for terrorists? Hmm? Meanwhile nothing is done about the source of terror - those who radicalise. The death penalty for them might be a better answer but we've got too many civil rights lawyers and something called legal aid and "human" rights.




I would not speak to soon marcolucco, I was watching a debate in the HOC yesterday to find out that Davy boy is shutting most of the HMRC offices across the UK, for what reason to save money definitely NO or to make sure tax inspectors do not have the means to look to closely at the tax affairs of Tory donors & friends definitely YES.     The word going around is that tax receipts have gone down & No11 is struggling which has caused Osborne to borrow MORE which will mean the debt will rise to £1.7 TRILLION for the UK tax payer to have to pay back.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:02 am

oftenwrong wrote:As you know, Redflag, politicians love an overseas adventure.  It distracts the voters from domestic troubles.  But once again the Sunday papers are reporting Tory MPs sleaze with mistresses on expenses, bullying, and a junior section out of control.

Penderyn, no need to be beastly to Mr. Corbyn - he has the entire Murdoch Empire to do that for him!

Yes OW I remember the Falklands and how Maggie made hay with that one, there is a follow up story in Tuesdays Daily Mirror on the Tory sleaze story a female activist woke up in a Tory MPs bed naked but cannot remember stripping or going to bed.. Its not just the Murdoch press it is the Murdoch TV (sky news 24) and right wing radio station LBC, they are so deperate to get rid of JC because they know people of the UK will not vote for Tory Lite Labour MPs.

What really sickens me is that some of the Labour MPs are helping the right wing media, if they got there brains into gear they would see its there jobs as MPs are on the line and the EXSISTENCE of the Labour party if JC is ousted by the FOOLS that run the Labour party.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:16 am

Newspapers used to quote a figure of "millions" when reporting the national debt and suchlike.  Recently it morphed into "billions" and is now reported in "trillions" of British Pounds.

In most cases the figures are what the government of the day told us they were.  So they must have been accurate, mustn't they?

On Redflag's most recent contribution: "right-wing" means whatever centrists want it to mean. In the case of the Blair government from 1997 up until Gordon Brown succeeded to party leadership there were many laws passed which could just as easily have originated from a Tory manifesto. Politicians and entire governments often modify their stance to incorporate shifts of Public Opinion - as indeed many voters think they should.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by Penderyn on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:47 pm

marcolucco wrote:trying to sabotage Mr Corbyn...........................  he needs no assistance; he does an excellent job of self-sabotage when his lips move.


Yes, he disagrees with your master, Murdoch.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:15 pm

I am marcolucco, not Murdoch,  and I stopped having a master when I left school. You have a kind heart in extending sympathy to poor Corbyn. I think of him as an Eddie the Eagle -  hopeless but so very, very funny.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

Post by marcolucco on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:27 pm



Redflag wrote:The word going around is that tax receipts have gone down & No11 is struggling which has caused Osborne to borrow MORE which will mean the debt will rise to £1.7 TRILLION for the UK tax payer to have to pay back.

The word that's going round hasn't reached my neighbourhood yet, Redflag. I hope we tax payers don't have to pay back this £1.7 trillion in the near future - I just couldn't cope financially. Ultimately David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair... speak the same language and follow the same aims.
They used to frighten children with stories that Boney - Napoleon - would come and get them. Now, our former chimney-sweeping urchins are told that the Tories will come for them. Same idea.
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Re: What now for Labour? (Part 2)

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