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Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

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Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:48 am

JP Cusick wrote:For myself a literal Jesus is not a big deal, but I accept that Jesus (real name Yesu) is real enough for me.

"Yes - the literalist are hard to deal with, and I reject the literalist too."

Except for the literal bits that suit the Jesus or God you have invented for yourself.

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The un-orthodox answers:

Post by JP Cusick on Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:35 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
"Yes - the literalist are hard to deal with, and I reject the literalist too."

Except for the literal bits that suit the Jesus or God you have invented for yourself.  
In my view you are not open to any realistic discussion about the subject, and clearly the so called "Literalist" are just an easy target for you to feed your own superiority complex.

Talking to me about my own findings and faith is a far greater challenge then taking on those foolish Literalist.

What gets me is that your-kind of so called Atheist are really just destructionist in that you tear things down, and the easier it is to tear down then the superior you can pretend of your self.

It is far easier to tear down people then it is for people to build up, and you simply have taken the easy way, and then fancy your self as strong and smart by tearing down what others are building up.

To study the truth and to extend belief and to have faith are what takes real strength.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:01 pm

I tear down garbage morality and show the right morality.

Those with eyes will see that but literalists will not as they are idol worshipers.

Thanks for the psychobabble B.S.

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The un-orthodox answers:

Post by JP Cusick on Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:01 pm

Greatest I am wrote:I tear down garbage morality and show the right morality.  
You make that claim but I do not see any reality to that claim.

You promote being a God-less Heathen and that is the only counter-morality that I see from you.

How about you give some real example of a garbage morality in Christianity?

And morality means an action based on principle, and not just a belief.

Greatest I am wrote:
Those with eyes will see that but literalists will not as they are idol worshipers.  
So what if they are?

I am not a literalist, nor a fundamentalist.

Some people worshiping an idol is just another easy target.

Greatest I am wrote:
Thanks for the psychobabble B.S.
I see that dirty language is a part of your higher morality too.

As to psychobabble - I like that - but I accused you of picking on easy targets and that is not babble.

And of fleeing away from a real discussion about God.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:20 am

JP Cusick wrote:You promote being a God-less Heathen

Get any quote where I do so or be seen as the liar you are.

How about you give some real example of a garbage morality in Christianity?

.

Easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:29 pm

Greatest I am,

By the question you ask it is obvious you agree that there is a need for salvation.

Unless we are to accept all kinds of inhuman and dispicable acts, and there were no means of salvation, then life for all would have been pointless.

Christians believe that God has provided the means of salvation for everyone willing to accept his offer, perhaps you could give another alternative.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:32 pm

[quote="polyglide"]
Greatest I am,

By the question you ask it is obvious you agree that there is a need for salvation.

Eh. No. Learn how to absorb what you read.

Unless we are to accept all kinds of inhuman and dispicable acts, and there were no means of salvation, then life for all would have been pointless.

What is despicable is lying to people about the immorality of accepting human sacrifice of the innocent as justice. As well as policy of a hell that does not exist.

Christians believe that God has provided the means of salvation for everyone willing to accept his offer, perhaps you could give another alternative.

                                             Regards.

Sure. Christians believe in all kinds of supernatural garbage.

Here is you moral alternative.

The following 5 quotes are why I call what God did murder, if he actually needs a blood sacrifice. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.


You ignored the immoral aspects spoken of by Spong and myself.

Speak to those instead of deflecting or we are done here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:37 am

Greatest I am,

I feel that repentance is the key to salvation, irrespective of what sin is involved

Prior to the birth of Jesus the conditions and obligations were not as they are now.

Of course God wishes that all mankind can be saved, however, we also have to take into account that Satan is determined that mankind will act in such a manner that is beyond salvation, if he does not come to the knowledge of the truith.

To visit the sins of the father does not mean that the children have to suffer as a consequence, it can just as much mean that they are more likely to benifit having had such fathers, and their fathers sins and actions having had a bad influence is taken into consideration regarding the childrens behaviour.

Repentance and accepting the truth are the main considerations.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:44 pm

Pffft.

Acceptance of truth is impossible when your God gave Satan the power to deceive all the world.

There is no logic to your belief and that is why you run from discussing the morality of it.


"Of course God wishes that all mankind can be saved,"

If your all-powerful omnipotent God cannot do his will then he is not much of a God.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:40 pm

Greatest I am,

Because God has allowed free will does not mean that he could not do whatever he chose.

It is the inability of humans to take note of God's wishes, had God forced mankind to do his will they would be robots, just as if he had also done the same to Satan and his followers.

I agree that aspects of Christianity, and the actions related as those of God can be seemingly immoral and unaccepteble, however, anyone reading the Bible will be aware that many things are not to be taken at face value as they are obviously meant for those reading them to solve what they mean, seeking the truth.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:55 pm

To follow a God that as you say, "actions related as those of God can be seemingly immoral and unacceptable,"

Is to follow Satan.

For you to follow a genocidal son murdering God, shows that your morals are satanic.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:34 am

Geatest I am,

I said 'SEEMINGLY' because we cannot for obvious reasons read God's mind nor the actual results of his actions.

How anyone can attempt to judge God is beyond me.

What we should be doing is looking at what God has stated will be the result of man's sins, along with what the Bible says will be the state of the earth at the time God will take care of Satan.

God says very clearly that murder is unacceptable.

What you are attempting to do is judge without being aware of all the circumstances and trying to be greater than God.

Very silly thing to do.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:24 pm

polyglide wrote:

God says very clearly that murder is unacceptable.

.

While using murder himself.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:31 pm

Greatest I am,
I can understand your views when taken at purely face value.

However, I have said previously, God would know that whatever he did was for the best, the result of not doing so would be far worse than not doing so.

If your family was threatened and the only alternative to saving them was to kill those involved, I would expect and agree that you had a right to do so, and were not in any way breaking the Law.

God would be well aware of any consequence of not doing what he did in every circumstance, and I am willing to accept that he knows far better than me.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:03 pm

No imaginary God can know anything so for sure he would know more than you.

To just accept that his killing is correct without even showing that his reality is real is to sell your soul to Satan.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:16 pm

Greatest I am,
But you do not believe in Satan???????.

This is what I mean when I say I feel you do believe but cannot grasp the whole prospect of a devine being but know that there must be a reason and an explanation of life and are a little mixed up.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:37 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
                   But you do not believe in Satan???????.

                   This is what I mean when I say I feel you do believe but cannot grasp the whole prospect of a devine being but know that there must be a reason and an explanation of life and are a little mixed up.

                                         Regards.  
                 

Correct. I do not believe in Satan but you do.

That is the point. I was speaking to your delusional thinking.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:49 am

Greatest I am,
I have explained several why I have come to the conclusions regarding God.

Perhaps you can give a sensible alternative to an intelligence far beyond our understanding being involved in creation.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:38 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
                   I have explained several why I have come to the conclusions regarding God.

                   Perhaps you can give a sensible alternative to an intelligence far beyond our understanding  being involved in creation.

                                           Regards.  

Beyond understanding?

You have been preaching what you understand of God since I have met you.

My sensible alternative is to not base a theology on an unfathomable God whose morals have been shown to be quite satanic.

Tell us why it is sensible for you to adore a genocidal God?

I see that as analogous to Jews adoring Hitler.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:25 pm

Greatest I am,

The problem is that I do not agree to the description you give of God.

I have tried to explain that what some think is the wrong actions of a loving God can be explained by the fact that we cannot know what would have happened if God had not taken the actions he has.

God will only take action when his followers are under threats not in accordance with the fight between God and Satan.

We cannot possibly comprehend the powers and reasoning that God has and uses.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:40 pm

Lies, lies, and more lies.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:55 pm

Greatest I am,

Origen is saying exactly what I have been saying all the time, I have never read him, nor need to, it is obvious that you have to study the Bible and understand that it is meant to be understood by those who seek the truth, and not taken in a literal sense.

Read the last book in the Bible, this makes it obvious.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:18 pm

Yet you stupidly take the text literally or you could not end with a literal Jesus.

I suggest you read your bible for the first time, the right way.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:19 pm

Greatest I am,

I always read the Bible the right way up.

You read the BIble on the understanding that God is real and Jesus is real, and you accept that they, in particular God, gives through the contents all that is necessary for mankind to live a good and prosperous life, and also the pitfalls of going against the advice given.

It also gives the consequences of doing all the wrong things, along with the rewards for doing the right things.

Knowing that Satan is doing his best to mislead, God is willing to accept and forgive those who admit and regret their sins.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:38 am

Only fools believe in a literal Satan.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:20 am

Greatest I am,

Just look at the evil in the world today, and if that is not sufficient proof I do not know what is.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:04 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

Just look at the evil in the world today, and if that is not sufficient proof I do not know what is.

                                           Regards.

I have and there is not much of it. In fact, if you bothered to look at the stats, you would not post such stupidity.

Here is just one example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:05 pm

Greatest I am,
I have read the abopve and the many comments.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the state the world at large is in regarding security and the actions of so called civilised people in all parts of the world today.

Not one nation actually feels secure and the means of mass destuction available today has never been available previously.

To say that the majority of people are now better off is shear stupidity.

Of course some live a lot longer, and a vast majority live in places where health care is better than ever, the problem is not in those ares but the areas where people are dying for want of water and medication, thousands being children.

The world is in a more perilous state than ever before, and there are more peole wanting to wipe out those who do not agree with their them and they asre not bothered how.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:12 pm

"To say that the majority of people are now better off is shear stupidity."

So speaking a demonstrable truth is stupidity.

Thanks for showing us all yours.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:30 pm

Greatest I am,

You know as well as I do that the world is in turmoil, and if there is an answer to solving the worlds problems it will not be man made.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:16 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

You know as well as I do that the world is in turmoil, and if there is an answer to solving the worlds problems it will not be man made.

                                                     Regards.

Speaking for an imaginary God is rather presumptuous.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:05 am

Greatest I am,

I am just stating the facts.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:11 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

You know as well as I do that the world is in turmoil, and if there is an answer to solving the worlds problems it will not be man made.

 
                                                 Regards.

Why not? Let's all start by agreeing there is no God, Allah, Jahweh etc in whose name to kill. That will save a few lives. On the other hand, we could solve the worlds problems by blowing it up. There 2 options. Both manmade.
Personally, I like Arthur C Clarkes 'Bible' - oops sorry - 2001 A space Odyssey- where sometime, millions of years ago, an unknown race sowed the seeds of humanity and left things to develop.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:22 pm

Just one GOD would do.

Do you realy think that mankind is capable of solving all the problems that have been created by humans?.

History has proven time and time again that mankind is incapable of devising a means of government that will ensure fair play for all.

The BIble gives the means.

I am well aware that you can say that God has done this and that, that seems against what he says we should do, however, we do not know all the circumstances and what would have happened had God not done what he did.

It is a foolish person who attempts to judge God.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:10 pm

polyglide wrote:Just one GOD would do.

Do you realy think that mankind is capable of solving all the problems that have been created by humans?.

History has proven time and time again that mankind is incapable of devising a means of government that will ensure fair play for all.

The BIble gives the means.

I am well aware that you can say that God has done this and that, that seems against what he says we should do, however, we do not know all the circumstances and what would have happened had God not done what he did.

It is a foolish person who attempts to judge God.

                                  Regards.

Agreed. It could have been something better.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:30 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
         
I am just stating the facts.

                                       Regards.

You are not. You are stating speculative nonsense.

I am not surprised that you cannot tell the difference.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:35 pm

polyglide wrote:

It is a foolish person who attempts to judge God.

                                  Regards.

It is an immoral person who accepts an immoral creed like Christianity that is the fool.

Your own bible tells you to judge God yet you prefer to hold fast and accept an evil God as good.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Shall we chat about how your God has murdered many innocent children and babies and about how Christianity grew itself with murder instead of good deeds?

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:48 pm

Greatest I am,

Unfortunately, you have not taken the time to consider what I have stated previously.

God has only taken the steps necessary to protect his loyal followers and humanity as a whole.

You nor I can be aware of the consequences of God not doing all the things he has done.

As I have tried to explain, if my children were at risk from idiots I would take any action necessary to prevent it happening irrespective of what was involved, if that was the only solution.

The Bible says murder is wrong, in numerous places in the Bible, it does not say it is justified under certain circumstances.

You can only comment from the point of view of a human which I feel in your case is based on purely personal experiences for which God cannot be blamed.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:51 pm

Greatest I am,

Should be unjustified.

Sorry.
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polyglide

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:50 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

Unfortunately, you have not taken the time to consider what I have stated previously.

God has only taken the steps necessary to protect his loyal followers and humanity as a whole.

You nor I can be aware of the consequences of God not doing all the things he has done.

As I have tried to explain, if my children were at risk from idiots I would take any action necessary to prevent it happening irrespective of what was involved, if that was the only solution.

The Bible says murder is wrong, in numerous places in the Bible, it does not say it is justified under certain circumstances.

You can only comment from the point of view of a human which I feel in your case is based on purely personal experiences for which God cannot be blamed.

                                                Regards.

your God did not appear in History until the scribes wrote the Tanakh in the 7th century BCE. Which god looked after humanity before that?
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:34 am

polyglide wrote:
Greatest I am,

Unfortunately, you have not taken the time to consider what I have stated previously.

Indeed. I ignore garbage and you speaking for an imaginary God whom you cannot know, --- without Gnosis.

God has only taken the steps necessary to protect his loyal followers and humanity as a whole.

Omnipotent means all powerful which would include an unlimited power of persuasion. Such a God would be able to make us all loyal to him if he wanted to. If he cannot then lies are being told of God's attributes. Lies that you continue to promulgate.


You nor I can be aware of the consequences of God not doing all the things he has done.

True, but only faith and delusion leads you to think your God has done anything at all.

As I have tried to explain, if my children were at risk from idiots I would take any action necessary to prevent it happening irrespective of what was involved, if that was the only solution.

The Bible says murder is wrong, in numerous places in the Bible, it does not say it is justified under certain circumstances.

Yet you and I have talked of God murdering and torturing children and babies so your bible definitely says that murder can be done in many cases just as it shows God murdering.

You can only comment from the point of view of a human which I feel in your case is based on purely personal experiences for which God cannot be blamed.

                                                Regards.

A convenient lie from you as you ignore your bible that says that man and God can think the same3 way. A & E became as Gods in the moral sense and that says that we think alike.

You putting all kinds of words in your Gods mouth is you trying to do what you say we cannot do.

Some would call that hypocrisy.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

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