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Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

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Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:34 am

polyglide wrote:
Greatest I am,

Unfortunately, you have not taken the time to consider what I have stated previously.

Indeed. I ignore garbage and you speaking for an imaginary God whom you cannot know, --- without Gnosis.

God has only taken the steps necessary to protect his loyal followers and humanity as a whole.

Omnipotent means all powerful which would include an unlimited power of persuasion. Such a God would be able to make us all loyal to him if he wanted to. If he cannot then lies are being told of God's attributes. Lies that you continue to promulgate.


You nor I can be aware of the consequences of God not doing all the things he has done.

True, but only faith and delusion leads you to think your God has done anything at all.

As I have tried to explain, if my children were at risk from idiots I would take any action necessary to prevent it happening irrespective of what was involved, if that was the only solution.

The Bible says murder is wrong, in numerous places in the Bible, it does not say it is justified under certain circumstances.

Yet you and I have talked of God murdering and torturing children and babies so your bible definitely says that murder can be done in many cases just as it shows God murdering.

You can only comment from the point of view of a human which I feel in your case is based on purely personal experiences for which God cannot be blamed.

                                                Regards.

A convenient lie from you as you ignore your bible that says that man and God can think the same3 way. A & E became as Gods in the moral sense and that says that we think alike.

You putting all kinds of words in your Gods mouth is you trying to do what you say we cannot do.

Some would call that hypocrisy.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:41 am

trevorw2539 wrote:

God has only taken the steps necessary to protect his loyal followers and humanity as a whole.

.

your God did not appear in History until the scribes wrote the Tanakh in the 7th century BCE.  Which god looked after humanity before that?[/quote]

Good point.

Historians and archeology show Goddess worship to be the common form of worship before the Bronze Age. Only after that age do the Gods of war begin to show up along with fortified cities. In those days weapons became powerful enough to really have great wars and so they had to have really powerful male Gods and city walls.

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DL

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:14 pm

Greatest I am,

I do not lie, I put forward for consideration that which I believe to be true.

I understand your references to pre. Bible ages but that is all part of a part in history that we should not concern ourselves with as Christians.

I have said previously that I think there have been several stages in history that unlimately resulted in God creating present day mankind that are subject to the rules of the Bible, those previously were subject to an entirely different set of rules.

Regards.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:59 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

I do not lie, I put forward for consideration that which I believe to be true.

You state things as facts, that are not provable facts and I call that lying.

I understand your references to pre. Bible ages but that is all part of a part in history that we should not concern ourselves with as Christians.

Ignoring inconvenient truth is how you end idol worshiping of an imaginary God.

I have said previously that I think there have been several stages in history that unlimately resulted in God creating present day mankind that are subject to the rules of the Bible, those previously were subject to an entirely different set of rules.

                                      Regards.


Interesting that you lay the creation of Islamist jihadists and other unsavory types on the shoulders of your God.

As to God's rules, your own bible says that God never changes his mind.

He would not create a new covenant unless there was something wrong with his original one.

Your bible also says that God creates for his pleasure.

Tell us what pleasure he gets from creating such people.

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DL
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:36 am

Greatest I am,

Just as you may create a garden with beautyful flowers, along can come a number of caterpillars that distroys them.

You would no doubt gain great pleasure from creating the garden but it could be ruined through no fault of yours.

I cannot see where God has changed his mind.

God created the perfect human and explained what was required for humans to have a good and happy life.

The fact that humans were allowed freedom of choice and took the wrong path cannot be put at the hands of God.

Mankind created all the different religions just as the Bible predicted.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:27 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

Just as you may create a garden with beautyful flowers, along can come a number of caterpillars that distroys them.

You would no doubt gain great pleasure from creating the garden but it could be ruined through no fault of yours.

I cannot see where God has changed his mind.

God created the perfect human and explained what was required for humans to have a good and happy life.

The fact that humans were allowed freedom of choice and took the wrong path cannot be put at the hands of God.
Mankind created all the different religions just as the Bible predicted.

                                       Regards.

How can the Bible predict religions that were in existence millenia before it was written?

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:14 pm

Perhaps Polyglide meant after Jesus's death. It does the mention that many churches,synagogoes and false prophets will come in his name,decieving and spreading the wrong gospels.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:44 pm


your God did not appear in History until the scribes wrote the Tanakh in the 7th century BCE.  Which god looked after humanity before that?
Good point.
Historians and archeology show Goddess worship to be the common form of worship before the Bronze Age. Only after that age do the Gods of war begin to show up along with fortified cities. In those days weapons became powerful enough to really have great wars and so they had to have really powerful male Gods and city walls.

Good points. Although according to religious doctrine.It is known that angels ..the fallen ones..were on the earth before man. Perhaps these were the Gods of the early years that influenced humanity. This would explain the many Gods with variying desciptions. And we would be the chess pieces on the board of wargames. Shocked
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:37 pm

Greatest I am,

The position before the creation of present day man is of no relevance as to the requirements of present day man.

We are unaware of much of what has occured since creation began,
and can only speculate as to the former religions and Gods etc;

The fact is that Christians take their faith from the Bible and it's contents with the knowledghe that it is not to be taken literally in all respects.

If we were given irrefutable proof, then there would be no need for faith.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:07 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

The position before the creation of present day man is of no relevance as to the requirements of present day man.

We are unaware of much of what has occured since creation began,
and can only speculate as to the former religions and Gods etc;

The fact is that Christians take their faith from the Bible and it's contents with the knowledghe that it is not to be taken literally in all respects.

If we were given irrefutable proof, then there would be no need for faith.

                                             Regards.

But the Old Testament is Jewish Scripture. Written centuries before Christianity, containing nothing to do with Christianity.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:22 am

I agree, however, Christianity is based on Christ, Jesus, all before is of no relevance regarding the sacrifice of Jesus.

It was all that went before that needed a means of mankind being saved from self destruction.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:08 pm

polyglide wrote:I agree, however, Christianity is based on Christ, Jesus, all before is of no relevance regarding the sacrifice of Jesus.  

Jesus didn't share your view according to the bible:

Matthew 5:17 is the seventeenth verse of the fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount. One of the most debated verses in the gospel, 5:17 begins a new section where Jesus discusses the Law and the Prophets.

In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or
the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He was referring to Mosaic law and the OT of course, the one you keep claiming is irrelevant?
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:36 pm

I would have to agree with Polyglide regarding the Mosaic laws which are really governing laws of a nation unlike the "fundamental laws" known as the Ten commandments.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:38 pm

Subjective opinions don't alter the facts. Which is the point both you and Polyglide have missed, whilst ignoring my biblical quote. Though desperate subjective ad hoc rationalisations are pretty much de rigueur for all theists, I still fail to see why they think this is any more compelling than those who claim to have seen mermaids, experienced "God" or been beamed aboard the mother ship (and probed).

Either the "teachings" in the bible associated with Jesus are real and relevant or they are not, if your arbitrarily picking which ones to bother with then that isn't very compelling.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Jsmythe on Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:03 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Subjective opinions don't alter the facts. Which is the point both you and Polyglide have missed, whilst ignoring my biblical quote. Though desperate subjective ad hoc rationalisations are pretty much de rigueur for all theists, I still fail to see why they think this is any more compelling than those who claim to have seen mermaids, experienced "God" or been beamed aboard the mother ship (and probed).

Well you seemed to have made a subjective opinion as the quote said from Jesus was addressed to Jews who would be following or mislead by the laws according to the pharisees that were conflicting with some of God's 10 commandments. There is emphasised importance to not teach against the 10 commandments despite man finding it hard to keep them.


Either the "teachings" in the bible associated with Jesus are real and relevant or they are not, if your arbitrarily picking which ones to bother with then that isn't very compelling.

Regarding the teachings in the bible in the context of Christianity; The beauty of the teachings of Jesus is its simplicity ;

Love One Another:
John 13:34-35 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Pray for your Enemies:
Matthew 5:44-45 "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Repent:
Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Believe that Jesus is in the Father:
John 14:11 "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

to name a few.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:42 am

What subjective opinion have I offered? Polyglide has repeatedly claimed the OT is irrelevant and that only Jesus's teachings matter.  

Leaving aside that this is subjective opinion.  The bible precisely claims that Jesus said the opposite in the NT. The ten commandments are in the OT as well, so Polyglide's claim would make them irrelevant.

It's all very well cherry picking scriptural quotes assigned to Jesus,  and claiming the beauty lies in their simplicity.  The fact remains the NT also claims Jesus endorsed OT  laws in their entirety. So universal love sits alongside persecuting gay people and ringing endorsements of slavery as just two examples.

It is also entirely down to Jesus in the new testament that we have the concept of hell. The OT has some appalling narratives and commandments, but it took gentle Jesus meek and mild to come up with the idea of torturing us after we die, forever.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:46 pm

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

The fact that humans were allowed freedom of choice and took the wrong path cannot be put at the hands of God.

?? The wrong path?

Are you saying that humans should not seek wisdom and a moral sense?

You do know that your moral sense comes from your knowledge of good and evil.
Do you think you are supposed to go through life without seeking education and knowledge that might gain you wisdom?

You might also wonder why the Jews who wrote Genesis saw Eden as our place of elevation and not our fall.

Christianity got it wrong while Jews got it right.

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DL
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:52 pm

polyglide wrote:

If we were given irrefutable proof, then there would be no need for faith.

                                             Regards.

True but proof is more reliable than faith since faith is belief without anything concrete.

Both Christianity and Islam, basically, have developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I.

That aside, why do you maintain a faith is a genocidal son murdering God?

If he popped up tomorrow, would you follow such an obviously immoral God? Do you think Jesus would?

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:58 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:[

He was referring to Mosaic law and the OT of course, the one you keep claiming is irrelevant?

Hi buddy. Lang time no chat.

Jesus referred back to the O.T. God and endorsed his no-divorce law, for one example.

That policy is anti-love and quite unjust as it would force people to live in loveless or abusive relationships.

The Gods have to be judged by their morality and the Christian ideology is far from a moral one.

I don't know if you have noticed that the moment morals and ethics become the topic, Christians take to the hill because they cannot argue their immoral moral tenets.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:03 pm

Jsmythe wrote:I would have to agree with Polyglide regarding the Mosaic laws which are really governing laws of a nation unlike the "fundamental laws" known as the Ten commandments.

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, not a Christian, as Christianity had yet to rear it's ugly and immoral head and all he had were the Jewish holy books to work with.

As to the ten commandments, do you think them to be a worthy set of fundamental laws when the first commandment is impossible to do and the commandment on women make them chattel?

Further ---



Regards
DL





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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:10 pm

Jsmythe wrote:[ The beauty of the teachings of Jesus is its simplicity ;

.

More like simplistic.

Give a listen to this link and note what happens when logic and reason are applied to what Jesus said.



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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:23 pm

polyglide wrote:
Greatest I am,

The fact that (1) humans were allowed freedom of choice and (2) took the wrong path cannot be put at the hands of God.

I see two claims, but no evidence to support them. Evolution is a scientific fact beyond any reasonable doubt, and it adequately and eloquently explains the limited autonomy humans have. I see no evidence humans have 'chosen the wrong path' only that they are fallible evolved mammals, and hence all human error can be amply explained by this fact.

Faith is the excuse people use to believe something they have no evidence for, it's utterly useless for discerning if something is true or not, and anyone can use it to believe literally anything.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Jsmythe on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:48 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, not a Christian, as Christianity had yet to rear it's ugly and immoral head and all he had were the Jewish holy books to work with.

Thank you ...this is what I say when atheists point out that Christians don't follow the ten commandments to the tee. When Jesus says " I have not come to change the law" He was talking to Jews under the Pharisees not Christians.


As to the ten commandments, do you think them to be a worthy set of fundamental laws when the first commandment is impossible to do and the commandment on women make them chattel?

I can't help but wonder why atheists use this type of argument ; stating a seemingly obvious on the surface without the details in context. This must mean you/atheists (as in the vid) are not reading it as it says ... making an erroneous misinterpretation for an argument (if not a deliberate one).

The ten commandments "did not" come about UNTIL the Israelites became corrupted and started worshipping idols. It was for that purpose and moment these laws were made originally ... otherwise the Ten Commandments should have been there from the beginning in Genesis.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Jsmythe on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:07 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
More like simplistic.

Give a listen to this link and note what happens when logic and reason are applied to what Jesus said.

Regards
DL

Yes its an interesting "personal opinion", I once almost believed a similar idea in my previous agnostic life.
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:01 pm

Jsmythe wrote:



I can't help but wonder why atheists use this type of argument ; stating a seemingly obvious on the surface without the details in context. This must mean you/atheists (as in the vid) are not reading it as it says ... making an erroneous misinterpretation for an argument (if not a deliberate one).

You chastise yet do not correct. Perhaps you cannot. This poor apologetics aside.

I am not a. I am a Gnostic Christian, and if you do not get from scriptures that women are more like chattel than equal to men, then it is you who are not reading scriptures properly. He shall rule over you and do not teach men anything ands shut up in the temple, all directed at women, says it all.

The ten commandments "did not" come about UNTIL the Israelites became corrupted and started worshipping idols.

I see the ten commandments in the Egyptian Book Of The Dead so cannot agree with your take.

It was for that purpose and moment these laws were made originally ... otherwise the Ten Commandments should have been there from the beginning in Genesis.

If worthy, they would possibly have been but if you read them, all they do is promote idol worship of their God.

Have you not noted how Christians and Muslims went from God seekers to idol worshiping cults?

The following is how all should think of God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

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DL
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:06 pm

Jsmythe wrote:

Yes its an interesting "personal opinion", I once almost believed a similar idea in my previous agnostic life.

Why did you move to the immoral side?

What do you find compelling in a genocidal God who thinks it just to demand and accept a bribe or sacrifice to change his justice from only wanting to punish the guilty to accepting as just the punishment of the innocent Jesus?

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