Welcome to Cutting Edge. Guests can see and read the contents of most of the boards on this forum but need to become members to read all of them. Currently membership is instant, but new accounts may be deleted if not activated within fourteen days.

If you decide to join the forum, please open your welcome message for further details. New members are requested to introduce themselves on the appropriate thread on our welcome board.

Members may post messages and start threads, but it is essential that they read our posting rules and advice before doing so. If you have any immediate questions or queries, please post them on the suggestions board.

After posting at least ten messages, members are able to contact each other and the staff through our personal messaging system.

This forum is administrated by Ivan and moonbeam and moderated by boatlady and astradt1.

Thank you for visiting Cutting Edge.

Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Ivan on Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:39 pm

You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.” (Matthew 16:18)

Jesus is supposed to have said this to Simon Peter after declaring him ‘blessed’ for recognising his true identity. What has been lost in translation into English is that ‘Peter’ was a nickname meaning ‘Rocky’. The Irish novelist and poet James Joyce once quipped that the church was “founded on a pun”.

Peter has been called the first bishop of Rome, although a Channel 4 documentary in 2008 disputed the fact that he ever went there. Catholics are taught that he was the first pope and that there has been an uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from him through successive popes and the bishops who they appointed. As the historian Sidney Painter explained: “The pope was far more than the administrative head of the church: as the successor to St Peter, he was in a sense the church’s very foundation and the chosen custodian of the Christian way of life.”

This doctrine of apostolic succession is denied by nearly all Protestants, most of whom tend to see the Bible as their principal source of authority. And two flaws immediately spring to mind. Firstly, the Catholic church didn’t exist in its present organisational structure before 606 AD. Secondly, and most pertinently, the line of succession was well and truly broken in the fourteenth century.

In 1305, Clement V was elected pope by the conclave of cardinals. He was a Frenchman and he refused to move to Rome, instead setting up his court in Avignon. The next six popes, all Frenchman, also lived there, but in 1376 Gregory XI moved his court to Rome, where he died soon afterwards. A breakdown in relations between the cardinals and Gregory’s successor, Urban VI, resulted in a second line of popes, so from 1378 there was one pope in Rome and another in Avignon.

Things became even more complicated in 1409. Only a pope is allowed to call a general council of the church, but 24 cardinals, some from each camp, became fed up with the situation and summoned a council to meet at Pisa. The outcome was that both popes were deposed and they chose a new one. However, as neither the pope at Avignon nor the pope in Rome recognised the actions of the council - and therefore wouldn’t accept the decree of deposition - Christendom now had three popes simultaneously.

The third pope was a haughty, intolerant and violent soldier who took the name of John XXIII. The Holy Roman Emperor summoned a council to meet at Constance in 1414 and John had his arm twisted to authorise the meeting. In 1415, the council suspended and then deposed John on charges of fornication, adultery, sodomy, incest and poisoning his predecessor. (His name was later expunged from the list of popes, and there was another John XXIII from 1958 until 1963.) By 1417, the church was back to having just one pope – but what happened to ‘apostolic succession’ in all of this?

Sources:-

http://www.missionsandiego.org/you-are-peter-and-upon-this-rock-i-will-build-my-church/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582585/St-Peter-was-not-the-first-Pope-and-never-went-to-Rome-claims-Channel-4.html

https://www.catholic.com/tract/apostolic-succession

http://www.bible.ca/cath-apostolic-succession.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 6903
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:00 pm

They needn't have bothered, really. There are an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world, according to Vatican figures. (40% of them in Latin America).
The world population as of March 2017 was estimated at 7.49 billion. (The United Nations estimates it will further increase to 11.2 billion in the year 2100).

Mathematically therefore, 6.29 billion people pay little or no attention to what a Pope in Rome may have to say about anything. Though I understand he is a decent chap.

Just to put things into perspective.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11608
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:03 pm

there has been an uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from him through successive popes and the bishops who they appointed.

It says it all surely that people think this kind of self validation amounts to anything, let alone for claims as extraordinary as theistic claims. The fact that other Christians chortle at how ridiculous "those" claims are is also very illuminating.

It's simply unicorn breeders arguing about unicorn husbandry. Until someone "breeds a unicorn" I'm not sure what's worthy of note? Beyond how gullible and suggestible humans can be when they simply choose not to doubt, and instead indulge faith.

I mean William Lane Craig has even managed to convince himself and a swathe of followers that disbelief in something requires faith, talk about the emperor's new clothes. I wonder if he claims to have separate faiths for all the deities he disbelieves in? Not to mention all the unicorns, leprechauns, mermaids, alien abductions, and garden fairies etc.. Rolling Eyes
avatar
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

Posts : 3125
Join date : 2013-10-11
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by boatlady on Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:52 am

unicorn breeders arguing about unicorn husbandry

witty
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3640
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:30 pm

Very Happy Thanks, I was going to go with flimflam, but it seemed a little light. "Spiritual authority" though, I mean how can any sane person not see how vapid such opportunistic nonsense is? There's a God, and he says I'm in charge down here, is basically the gist of it. They can chant it in Latin, and swing all the incense burners they like, it's still risible to me.
avatar
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

Posts : 3125
Join date : 2013-10-11
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by boatlady on Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:37 pm

If there is a god - it would be much more interested in nurturing its creation than in setting rules about who can kill who, who can eat what and what the women should wear
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3640
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Jsmythe on Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:00 pm

As a parent raisng children with rules ? A sort of "Do Not play with matches!" Rolling Eyes
avatar
Jsmythe

Posts : 124
Join date : 2011-10-09
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Jsmythe on Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:09 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:

I mean William Lane Craig has even managed to convince himself and a swathe of followers that disbelief in something requires faith, talk about the emperor's new clothes. I wonder if he claims to have separate faiths for all the deities he disbelieves in? Not to mention all the unicorns, leprechauns, mermaids, alien abductions, and garden fairies etc.. Rolling Eyes

I think he probably means in the context that to say "there can be no such thing as God or other thing outside the realm of mans limited knwledge of the universe" as this would be considered a faith claim.  It is wiser to say your position is from a more agnostic approach being that we don't know enough to know , let alone having a knowledge of something to refute with.
avatar
Jsmythe

Posts : 124
Join date : 2011-10-09
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:06 am

boatlady wrote:If there is a god - it would be much more interested in nurturing its creation than in setting rules about who can kill who, who can eat what and what the women should wear

Not sure why we need any deity for this, setting rules to maximise wellbeing and reduce suffering seems simply prudent. Luckily animals that have evolved in social groups have by necessity evolved the capacity to be empathetic.

The golden rule trumps any religious diktat I've ever heard. Besides, insisting we ignore reason scientific facts and empathy in favour of immutable archaic commandments and laws is not morality, it's blind obedience.

I feel Godwin's law is about to be fulfilled. Blindly following rules is seldom a good idea.
avatar
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

Posts : 3125
Join date : 2013-10-11
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:10 am

Jsmythe wrote:As a parent raisng children with rules ? A sort of "Do Not play with matches!" Rolling Eyes

Sadly a better analogy to religious 'rules' would be only use matches to burn those heretics.

The problems arise when the rules are demonstrably immoral and we're indoctrinated not to disobey or even question them. As I said earlier, that isn't morality.
avatar
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

Posts : 3125
Join date : 2013-10-11
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:20 am

Jsmythe wrote:
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:

William Lane Craig has even managed to convince himself and a swathe of followers that disbelief in something requires faith,

I think he probably means in the context that to say "there can be no such thing as God or other thing outside the realm of mans limited knwledge of the universe" as this would be considered a faith claim.

That's not atheism though, nor what I  claimed? A lack of belief, or rejection of a claim is neither believing nor asserting an opposite claim.

WLC's mistake is a common one amongst apologists, but since he is a philosopher by profession it's unlikely his error of epistemology is accidental.

WLC is not the only apologists who distorts atheism with this disingenuous logical fallacy to reverse the burden of proof, usually laying the ground for the common logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam.  

Do you believe mermaids exist? If not then are you using faith to disbelieve in their existence?
avatar
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

Posts : 3125
Join date : 2013-10-11
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Does the doctrine of apostolic succession make any sense, even to a Christian?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum