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Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

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Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:36 pm

Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

The God sold by Christianity say that God has no limits, yet God is limited to only one begotten son. Or is he?

Is there is only one begotten son of God, Jesus, because you can only create one?

All sons of God are creations of your own mind, gleaned from finding your internal spark of God, as described by Jesus, who states clearly that God is within you. Within you can only exist one God and thus only one son of God. That son of God is yourself, should you choose to follow Jesus’ way.





Matthew 6:The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Are you ready to step up?

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:32 pm

Let me add to the question.

If there is only one begotten son, who are the sons of God spoken of in the O.T.?

Who mothered them?

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:03 pm

What evidence can you demonstrate to show they were real?

What significance are you attaching their existence and why, and what evidence can you demonstrate to support this premise?
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:58 am

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

I do not have any evidence for the existence of any of the biblical characters. To me they are all imaginary or archetypal. After all, the bible is a consolidation of a number of different ancient belief systems.

The significance I put to this thread is the fact that if one seeks God introspectively, then one will/might find what Freud and Jung names the Father Complex. This is a minor part of the Oedipus Complex that I and most psychiatrists reject. I do not reject the Father Complex part as it makes logical sense that we would have a place where our basis instincts are stored.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:30 pm

If it's not true, and no deity exists why show the bible any more credence than any other book? If Jesus was just a man, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, then why attach any significance to the teachings assigned him that the teachings themselves don't earn on their own merit?

I see no evidence, and have heard no compelling reasons or arguments, that convinces me can't form excellent morals without any religious or theistic belief at all. In fact quite the contrary appears to be the case, where theistic belief comes with baggage that makes adherents lose the ability to see that religion's teachings as immoral once they accept that the idea or commandment is sanctioned by a perfectly moral deity.

If we don't or can't use our reason and intellect to decide what is moral and what not, then how can we ever say whether religious dogma and doctrines are moral at all? Paradoxically if we can decide what is moral using our reason and intellect then why do we need religious dogma and doctrines at all anyway?
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:11 am

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
If it's not true, and no deity exists why show the bible any more credence than any other book?

Because, to me, it shows much of the early thinking even as much of it has been distorted by Christianity. Some of it, when seen through my esoteric ecumenist eyes is still worthy of contemplation. It shows me what good morals are when I see the really poor morals of Yahweh.

If Jesus was just a man, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, then why attach any significance to the teachings assigned him that the teachings themselves don't earn on their own merit?

I do give the quotes I use merit on their own, but since I am trying to bring Christians to a better way of thinking, it is useful to quote someone they trust. It might make it harder for them to ignore it, although most still do as it does not match the lies they are used to getting from their priests and preachers.

I see no evidence, and have heard no compelling reasons or arguments, that convinces me can't form excellent morals without any religious or theistic belief at all.


Ditto.

The reverse is true as most religions have a really poor moral position on many issues.

In fact quite the contrary appears to be the case, where theistic belief comes with baggage that makes adherents lose the ability to see that religion's teachings as immoral once they accept that the idea or commandment is sanctioned by a perfectly moral deity.

See above.

If we don't or can't use our reason and intellect to decide what is moral and what not, then how can we ever say whether religious dogma and doctrines are moral at all? Paradoxically if we can decide what is moral using our reason and intellect then why do we need religious dogma and doctrines at all anyway?

I hear you buddy.

People have forgotten that religions have more to do with our insecure tribal natures than anything to do with morality.

The fact that Christianity and Islam are immoral creeds should remind religious people of that but they don't really care. They just want the pacifying tribe or religion to easy their insecurities.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:12 am

It shows me what good morals are when I see the really poor morals of Yahweh.

OK, but wasn't this my point, that if we accept the ability of determining what is moral rectitude from turpitude is inherent in the human condition,  then at the very least the bible is no more significant than any other book.

The problem is as I have said that theists who stick most accurately and rigidly to what the bible says and instructs are doomed to be least moral by any objective standard, see Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, or the KKK for examples. Citing the more wishy washy sentiments about love that are assigned to Jesus doesn't help here I think because there are plenty of passages assigned to Jesus that are the polar opposite, his blanket and unequivocal endorsing of Mosaic law for instance, his creation of the appalling concept of hell, and torturing humans after they die "forever". The idea we should abandon any notion of preparing for the future, and focus on his cult. The idea family members who didn't follow his cult should be disowned, or worse, and on and on.

The point being you have to have to some method to recognise moral rectitude from turpitude in order to decide what the contradictions in the bible "mean". If you are capable of this then we're back to not needing the bible or divine diktat in order to be moral.

I recommend Sam Harris's "The Moral Landscape" though I haven't finished it yet.

People have forgotten that religions have more to do with our insecure tribal natures than anything to do with morality.

I think religions also involved a search for morality by many, and still does, but it's morality has been shown to be fallible precisely because it is man made IMHO. If it is entirely human in origin you would expect it to reflect the culture and epoch from which it was derived, and not be perfect and timeless as well as profoundly moral, and this is precisely what we do see, with all religions.

The fact that Christianity and Islam are immoral creeds should remind religious people of that but they don't really care.

Well I am always weary of leaping to Godwin's law as it so often misinterpreted as fallacious, and I am obviously not making a direct comparison between the comparative morals, but to a Nazis National Socialism was a moral creed, this tells us nothing about the morals of Nazism. However if you accept the premise, as I do, that morality is inextricably linked to well being and therefore the best morals should maximise the physical and emotional well being of all conscious creatures, whilst protecting universal rights of the individual then we can see how far an ideology like Nazism falls short of this.

A religion that endorses slavery, extols the attitude that child sacrifice including your own, is preferable to denying the will of a capricious and sadistically egotistical deity that craves the constant adoration of it's creation, and condemns people to hell on a whim, and others to death and then the eternal torture of hell because they happened to be born gay, and also condones and endorses rape and sex trafficking, cannot ever make any claim to moral ascendancy IMHO, and thus the odd passage that contains morally profound statements does not justify believing the religion is itself a force for good. I think here we are on the same page, which is why I find describing yourself as a Gnostic Christian a little misleading.
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:56 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
I think here we are on the same page, which is why I find describing yourself as a Gnostic Christian a little misleading.

Possibly because you are not as familiar with Gnostic Christianity as I am.

"When Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within, he meant gnosis, the knowledge of the heart. The Gnostics of the early Christian era never hoped that any political or economic revolution could, or even should, do away with all the iniquitous elements within the system wherein the human is entrapped. Their rejection was not of one government or form of ownership in favor of another: rather it concerned the entire prevailing systematization of life and experience.

The Gnostics were persecuted out of existence because they knew something: that human life does not fulfill its promise within the structures and establishments of society. No one comes to his or her true selfhood by being or doing what society wants.

Churches and governments could not afford to have this secret known. That is why Jesus was killed, and that is why anyone since who knows with his or her heart is persecuted. One cannot free oneself by bowing to the yoke but only by breaking it."

https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/12/330510.html?c=on

This view is spoken of in this link, but if you do not think you have a higher consciousness, you should ignore it.



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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by snowyflake on Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:43 pm

The Gnostics (despite their overblown claims) did not KNOW. They BELIEVED. And unfortunately, it is still a religion based on false hopes and expectations that are just not founded in reality.

You also don't know that Jesus was a real person let alone killed. The difference between belief and knowing is rooted in evidence and even then you might still be wrong. So what I would say, is follow the evidence, be open to changing your mind in light of new evidence. But that is not what believers do. They hang their hat on the one religious peg that suits their psyche without ever considering that they could be very very wrong about what constitutes reality.
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:07 pm

Even accepting Jesus was a real person doesn't mean he said or did anything the bible claims, there simply is no evidence to support any of it. The gospels are not contemporary accounts, and some are demonstrable forgeries. The supernatural claims can be only be viewed through deeply superstitious attitudes and ignorance of the people from that epoch.
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:33 pm

snowyflake wrote:The Gnostics (despite their overblown claims) did not KNOW. They BELIEVED. And unfortunately, it is still a religion based on false hopes and expectations that are just not founded in reality.

You also don't know that Jesus was a real person let alone killed. The difference between belief and knowing is rooted in evidence and even then you might still be wrong. So what I would say, is follow the evidence, be open to changing your mind in light of new evidence. But that is not what believers do. They hang their hat on the one religious peg that suits their psyche without ever considering that they could be very very wrong about what constitutes reality.

I mostly agree with your views on other religi9ons but do not see it applying to Gnostic Christians because, as esoteric ecumenists, we already do what you say should be done. That is why we call ourselves free thinkers.

The evidence a Gnostic Christian finds within himself is what brings him from belief of assumptions to knowing reality.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:37 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Even accepting Jesus was a real person doesn't mean he said or did anything the bible claims, there simply is no evidence to support any of it. The gospels are not contemporary accounts, and some are demonstrable forgeries. The supernatural claims can be only be viewed through deeply superstitious attitudes and ignorance of the people from that epoch.

No argument my friend.

Gnostic Christians do not believe in the Jesus of the bible and to us, Jesus is just an imaginary representative of a good man.

I do not know who or why he is shown as an esoteric ecumenist in scriptures and that that was not written right out of the bible. Following his meditation and seeking methods paid off for me and if they had not, I would not have taken on the label of gnostic Christian.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by snowyflake on Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:07 pm

That's your mistake. You shouldn't have taken on the label of any religion. You could just as easily believe in nothing and live a very good life.

Which makes one wonder why do you believe at all? What are you getting out of it?
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:00 pm

I do not so much believe as know from evidence. No faith is involved either.

Unfortunately, there is no proof of this evidence as apotheosis does not supply any. I do know that it happened though.

What is a very god life to you?

If you see evil being done by religions, is it not better to fight it than to ignore it and only let others fight it?

For evil to grow and all that.

As to why I took on the label of Gnostic Christian, that is likely complex, but consider that it is easier to fight a religious creed from a religious POV than a political one.

If I want to win a game against someone, I have to play by their rules.

That is likely why we invented our myths and put them against Christianity's and attack them on solid moral grounds instead of just belief in fantasy characters.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:46 pm

Unfortunately, there is no proof of this evidence

This seems oddly juxtaposed, proof is what we achieve with evidence. If it cannot be empirically demonstrated I'd not define it as evidence. What form might evidence take that cannot be demonstrated?

If you see evil being done by religions, is it not better to fight it than to ignore it and only let others fight it?

Indeed it is, but I'm not sure how describing yourself in religious terms like 'Christian' helps achieve this.

" consider that it is easier to fight a religious creed from a religious POV than a political one."

I don't see this at all, I think superstitions can only be eradicated by education, if indeed they can be eradicated, and many anthropologists suggest it can't, At least not entirely anyway.

If I want to win a game against someone, I have to play by their rules.

It sounds clever prima facie, but I'm not sure it is true tbh.

attack them on solid moral grounds instead of just belief in fantasy characters.

The problem is the belief convinces the holder their actions are not immoral. Telling a suicide bomber that murder is immoral will achieve little as long as they think their deity will love and reward them for it. Yet such beliefs are quite demonstrably nothing more than fantasy.
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:38 pm

I mostly agree but still think going after their immorality pays dividends. I have had success in getting theists to admit to some of Yahweh's more immoral acts but then they play their idiotic, God made us so he can do anything he wants to us, moral or not.

I usually accuse the theist of developing a double moral sense and that usually ends things as they know it is true and cannot deny it. I just hope my mental poison has an effect further down the line.

I have had more lurkers agree with my views than the theists I am talking too. They are actually the ones I think of when chatting with the actual poster.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Jsmythe on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:31 am

Greatest I am wrote:Let me add to the question.

If there is only one begotten son, who are the sons of God spoken of in the O.T.?

Who mothered them?

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DL

The sons of God were names given to the angels (watchers). Genesis 6:1-5.
(somehow I think you know this)

Jesus is often said to be the second Adam. 1st gen creation direct from Gods hand - whereas everyone else is begot by other humans although Jesus had a mother Mary. These are names differentiating between types of various creations in this regard.
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:22 pm

Jsmythe wrote:
]quote="Greatest I am"]Let me add to the question.

If there is only one begotten son, who are the sons of God spoken of in the O.T.?

Who mothered them?

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DL

The sons of God were names given to the angels (watchers). Genesis 6:1-5.
(somehow I think you know this)

They are still named as supernatural sons of God.

Jesus is often said to be the second Adam. 1st gen creation direct from Gods hand - whereas everyone else is begot by other humans although Jesus had a mother Mary. These are names differentiating between types of various creations in this regard.
[/quote]

Yet Christians also say that Jesus always existed as one of the three Godheads of the Trinity.

Scriptures say that God selected him to die, needlessly and unjustly to me, before he created mankind or our ability to sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

There is a lot of conflicted thinking in Christianity. That is likely why they chose to grow by the sword instead of good arguments and ideology.

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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:34 pm

1st gen creation direct from Gods hand - whereas everyone else is begot by other humans

Approx where in the following evolutionary time line are you saying this change happened? Also what evidence have you to support your claim other than the bible?

4 MYA Australopithecines appear. They have brains no larger than a chimpanzee’s – with a volume around 400 – 500 cm3 -, but walk upright on two legs. First human ancestors to live on the savannah
3.2 MYA Lucy, famous specimen of Australopithecus afarensis, lives near what is now Hadar, Ethiopia
2.7 MYA Paranthropus, lives in woods and grasslands, has massive jaws for chewing on roots and vegetation. Becomes extinct 1.2 MYA
2.5 MYA Homo habilis appears. Its face protrudes less than earlier hominids, but still retains many ape features. Has a brain volume of around 600 cm3
Hominids start to use stone tools regularly, created by splitting pebbles – this starts Oldowan tradition of toolmaking, which last a million years
Some hominids develop meat-rich diets as scavengers, the extra energy may have favoured the evolution of larger brains
2 MYA Evidence of Homo ergaster, with a brain volume of up to 850 cm3, in Africa
1.8 – 1.5 MYA Homo erectus is found in Asia. First true hunter-gatherer ancestor, and also first to have migrated out of Africa in large numbers. It attains a brain size of around 1000 cm3
1.6 MYA Possible first sporadic use of fire suggested by discoloured sediments in Koobi Fora, Kenya. More convincing evidence of charred wood and stone tools is found in Israel and dated to 780,000 years ago
More complex Acheulean stone tools start to be produced and are the dominant technology until 100,000 years ago
600,000 YA Homo Heidelbergensis lives in Africa and Europe. Similar brain capacity to modern humans
500,000 YA Earliest evidence of purpose-built shelters – wooden huts – are known from sites near Chichibu, Japan
400,000 YA Early humans begin to hunt with spears
325,000 YA Oldest surviving early human footprints are left by three people who scrambled down the slopes of a volcano in Italy
280,000 YA First complex stone blades and grinding stones
230,000 YA Neanderthals appear and are found across Europe, from Britain in the west to Iran in the east, until they become extinct with the advent of modern humans 28,000 years ago
195,000 YA Our own species Homo sapiens appears on the scene – and shortly after begins to migrate across Asia and Europe. Oldest modern human remains are two skulls found in Ethiopia that date to this period. Average human brain volume is 1350 cm3
170,000 YA Mitochondrial Eve, the direct ancestor to all living people today, may have been living in Africa
150,000 YA Humans possibly capable of speech. 100,000-year-old shell jewellery suggests that that people develop complex speech and symbolism
140,000 YA First evidence of long-distance trade
50,000 YA People begin burying their dead ritually; create clothes from animal hides; and develop complex hunting techniques, such as pit-traps.
Colonisation of Australia by modern humans
33,000 YA Oldest cave art. Later, Stone Age artisans create the spectacular murals at Lascaux and Chauvet in France. Homo erectus dies out in Asia – replaced by modern man
18,000 YA Homo Floresiensis, found on the Indonesian island of Flores.  
12,000 YA Modern people reach the Americas
10,000 YA Agriculture develops  First villages domestication of dogs
5,500 YA Stone Age ends and Bronze Age begins. Humans begin to smelt and work copper and tin, and use them in place of stone implements
5,000 YA Earliest known writing
4,000 to 3,500 BC The Sumerians of Mesopotamia develop the world’s first civilisation
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Re: Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

Post by Jsmythe on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:07 am

G'day Doc,

You have a long impressive list so will respond when I get back.
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