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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

That old-fashioned notion of respecting the result of a plebiscite.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:36 pm

I think that if the reality of Brexit were explained in all its aspects - simply and clearly - many people would change their minds. You must know that many people really have no idea of all the implications, they simply vote on their 'gut' feeling.  Oh, and their age. Try and tell old people that the 'good old days' of the 1960's was actually the country  sliding into economic ruin - until we joined the CM and changed our strategy. They don't want to understand or know the truth. They want to be 'free' in a world where Nothing is free. We are all subject to rules and regulations. We are not free to travel widely - except that at countries permission. We can't fly over another country without permission. We are bound by International Agreements and Conventions as well as our own laws.  

Donne had it right  'No man is an island'. Neither is any country.

Britain never has been Great - except in the terms of military power.  It has relied on conquest, rape and pillage of other nations natural resources, slavery and ...  oo-er.

Is it comfortable in the Tower of London?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:08 am

They’re back, as wrong as ever. Enough of Nigel Lawson and his band of 80s ultras

From an article by Will Hutton:-

"In any league table of national figures who have been consistently wrong on almost every major judgment, Nigel Lawson must rank close to number one. As Britain and his party reel from the impact of intolerable intergenerational and geographical inequality, stagnating productivity, a vast personal debt burden, and now the poison of Brexit, Lawson is the man most closely associated with the ideas and policies that have brought us to our current pass.

With a wholly unjustified reputation for being an economic superman that buoys up his no less unjustified self-confidence, Lawson remains an insidious, if wizened, scorpion, as indiscriminately dangerous to his own side as to his ideological opponents. Beware his carefully targeted venom even if his attacks only prove you are in the right: millions will have immediately sided with the chancellor, Philip Hammond, when Lawson called for his resignation because he was undermining a hard Brexit.

Too many people remain in thrall to this out-of-time hulk that should be towed out to sea. Yet, extraordinarily, Lawson is the ringleader of a group of Thatcherite ultras who now crowd on to our airwaves, exploiting the mythology of Thatcherite greatness to insist Britain must make a complete break with the EU.
"

For the rest of the article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/21/enough-of-nigel-lawson-and-his-band-of-80s-ultras-brexit
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:55 am

Lest we forget: Chancellor Lawson's contribution to the Nation's prosperity

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/141485.stm
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:20 am

Britain’s Brexit team, courtesy of Frankie Boyle

Liam Fox - a man who looks like he could finish a steak while looking at footage from Hiroshima.

Boris Johnson, who for the first time finds himself in a cabinet without it involving someone saying: “Quick! My husband’s home early!”

David Davis - Sid James after a ‘This Morning’  makeover and a half-hearted tilt at therapy.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/28/night-of-the-living-dead-britains-brexit-team
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 am




Yeah, yeah, yeah .... and anyone who doesn't agree is an enemy of the people.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:28 pm

And there was me thinking that the EU cost us £350m a week! After all, buses don't lie, do they?  scratch

This was written by David Schneider:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNkGFn0WsAEG9Og.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:40 pm

Babbling about Brexit progress, Dave only oozes defeat

Extracts from an article by John Crace:-

In press conferences following negotiations, Michel Barnier used to make a point of making most of his remarks in English to make things easier for David Davis. But at the sixth time of asking he’s clearly decided there isn’t any language that Davis properly understands, so he might as well speak in his native French. The EU wasn’t asking for, nor would be making, any concessions, he said. And while some work had been done – with a little help, Davis was now often able to locate the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland on a map – there was still much more that needed to be done.

On the substantive issues, Davis appeared equally lost. He still hasn’t grasped the logic of Northern Ireland needing to remain in the single market and the customs union to prevent the need for a hard border and he also appears not to understand the fundamental imbalance of power within the negotiations. As for the financial settlement, “substantial technical progress” had been made. Britain had finally agreed the currency. If not the amount.

There were just two weeks to try to save Brexit. Dopey Dave looked around for help, before it dawned on him that he was the person on whom the country was counting. His expression was of a man who had only just realised he was completely out of his depth. Defeat oozed out of every pore. The Brexiter for whom hubris beckoned unless the Maybot was suddenly willing to hand over €60bn. “We’re making progress”, Davis insisted as he was led away by his child minder. Barnier couldn’t resist a little smirk. He’d had tougher negotiations with his kids over how much TV they could watch than he had with the British contingent. His kids would never have limited their options so catastrophically by triggering Article 50 before they knew what they wanted as an outcome.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/babble-brexit-progress-dave-ooze-defeat-barnier
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:49 pm

But he does have spreadsheets, which show progress.

Yikes!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:57 pm

The Observer view of Britain’s shambolic Brexit negotiations

Extracts from an ‘Observer’ editorial:-

Boris Johnson, is busy losing a personal battle with Iran over his gross mishandling of the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian woman jailed in Tehran on fabricated charges. Johnson lacks the sense of responsibility and gravitas required for his job. Theresa May picked him because, after the Brexit referendum, she could not refuse him a senior post. He has repeatedly proved himself unworthy of the honour. May should show some teeth – and sack him.

The Johnson embarrassment is but one of many unfortunate by-products of Britain’s biggest problem: Brexit. May and her Crazy Gang cabinet appear not to grasp the dismaying extent to which the UK’s views are now dismissed, ignored and ridiculed on the international stage. As Britain flounders under the baleful influence of a clique of Tory hard Brexiters, the diminution of its global reputation proceeds apace. What is the world at large to make of a leader who is so clueless and lacking in authority that a senior minister, Priti Patel, can parade around Israel like a PM-in-waiting, holding high-level talks and peddling controversial initiatives at a sensitive juncture, all apparently without her knowledge or agreement?

May’s government is a chronic shambles; even its Tory press supporters admit as much. But so, too, undeniably, are the Brexit negotiations. Last week’s talks, rather than forging consensus on issues of money, citizens’ rights and the Irish border, revealed widening differences. Michel Barnier, the EU negotiator, has now given Britain two weeks to find solutions. Yet there is David Davis again blithely claiming that progress is being made, while pleading for Europe’s political leaders to rescue him. He has made a monumental mess of things and should be replaced.


https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/11/observer-view-on-britains-shambolic-brexit-negotiations
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:45 am

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Parliament to have final say on Brexit deal, David Davis announces

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/parliament-to-have-final-say-on-brexit-deal-david-davis-announces/ar-BBEV29q?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=iehp

Officer cadets are always taught the formula, Order followed by Counter-Order = Disorder.

If the Tory "plan" for Brexit continues thus, Brussels may recommend us to consider bloody revolution.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:05 pm

In 1995, 89 Tory MPs voted for this headbanger to become PM....  Evil or Very Mad


Source: Twitter


John Redwood criticised over advice to pull money out of UK

From an article by Jessica Elgot:-

Labour has criticised the arch-Eurosceptic MP John Redwood for “talking down Britain” after he recently wrote a column of financial advice in which he recommended investors “look further afield” because of the state of the UK economy.

In the piece for ‘The Financial Times, Redwood – who has a £180,000 second job as chief global strategist for Charles Stanley – said the European Central Bank was promoting faster growth when the UK was seeing a squeeze on credit. The piece was published on 3 November but came to greater prominence after a scathing comment piece was published by a Forbes commentator, Frances Coppola, who wrote that the MP had “advocated a course of action by the UK government that he knows would seriously damage the UK economy”.

Tom Brake, the Liberal Democrats’ Brexit spokesman, criticised the column, calling the advice “sheer hypocrisy” from an MP who had promoted leaving the EU. “He is advising investors to move their money out of the UK, all the while pushing in Parliament for a destructive hard Brexit that would see even more investment desert the country.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/13/labour-accuses-john-redwood-of-talking-britain-down


No wonder John Redwood backs Brexit. He will make money out of it, after all

From an article by Joris Luyendijk:-

When, in a few years, a public inquiry is held into the economic, financial and monetary debacle that is by then Brexit, one of the easier targets will be the Tory MP and Brexit cheerleader John Redwood.

To successfully cleanse British politics of its clowns and crypto-fascists this future inquiry ought to definitively discredit Brexit’s chief proponent, Boris Johnson, in the way that the Iraq war inquiry did to Tony Blair. Impulsive and unable to concentrate on anything complex, Johnson does not even care whether he is right or wrong – as long as it plays well with the billionaire-owned far-right press that built him up. Redwood, however, is a very different kind of Brexiteer, given his oft-touted decade-long career in the City.

Redwood should know that the UK cannot logically leave the customs union without the erection of a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. He should know it is logically impossible to maintain his country’s current smooth and frictionless trade with the EU single market without accepting the rules and court that hold this single market together. And he should know that according to international law the UK is obliged to settle its outstanding obligations to the EU – the misnamed “Brexit bill”. And yet his countless tweets tell the opposite story.

Who is the real Redwood: the man forever emphasising how well Britain is going to do out of the EU – or the man telling investors to shift their cash out of the country?


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/14/john-redwood-brexit-money-britain-eu
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:44 pm

How can you tell when a Politician is lying?

You are able to see his lips moving.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:47 am

We can but dream......

The plot to stop Brexit

Extracts from an article by George Eaton:-

Five months after the Brexit talks began, the EU has yet to open discussions on a new UK trade deal. Theresa May has been forced to concede that there will be a two-year “transition period” from 29 March 2019, the date set for the UK to leave the EU, during which little will change. But in Europe, as well as in Britain, there is an increasing belief that the UK may not, in the end, leave.

After the shock of the referendum result, Remain MPs have regrouped. The All-Party Parliamentary Group on EU Relations, founded by Chuka Umunna in July and co-chaired by Anna Soubry, is the main vehicle for their activities. Amendments to the government’s EU Withdrawal Bill have been meticulously co-ordinated to ensure maximum impact. Beyond Westminster, some of Britain’s most senior politicians have opened back channels to Brussels. On 30 October, to the consternation of Brexiteers, Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, met Nick Clegg, Andrew Adonis and Ken Clarke. During their Brussels meeting, Clegg impressed upon Barnier how “extraordinarily fragile and febrile” British politics was. Barnier, who had met with Jeremy Corbyn for 80 minutes earlier in the month, is mindful that the Conservative government could collapse.

If Remainers have refused to accept the referendum result, it is partly because they know that their opponents would have done the same in different circumstances. Back in 2016, Nigel Farage warned that a 52-48 Remain victory (the margin by which Leave won) would be “unfinished business by a long way”. EU supporters cite the words of Brexit secretary David Davis in 2012: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.”


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/11/plot-stop-brexit
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:46 am

Paradoxically, "Remainers" of whatever political complexion are troubled by much the same sort of problem as there was in Zimbabwe.  A plainly broken government needed to be forced to change course - but without breaching the fundamental principle of Democracy.

They seem to be achieving that in Harare, so why can't Westminster?

In co-operation with EU negotiators, the howling Brexiteer mob should be presented with an offer they can't refuse.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:54 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:31 pm

Adam Boulton, in today's Sunday Times, makes a brave effort to untangle the Brexit turmoil. For "remainers" to succeed, opnion polls would need to show a 60/40 split before politicians would consider re-running the referendum which last year was 48/52.
There are three organisations as well as Nick Clegg's "Open Reason" think-tank, which favour a second referendum: InFacts, Best for Britain and Open Britain.

Boulton correctly points out that any change of direction would require Tory remainers to join forces with the Labour Opposition.

The size of the Bill which Britain will have to pay to leave - £70billion and rising - may focus minds during the time remaining.


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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:58 pm

‘I thought I’d put in a protest vote’: the people who regret voting leave

From an article by Dorian Lynskey:-

"17 months after the referendum, the regretful leave voter is the dog that hasn’t barked. Since the result came through, remainers have anticipated a significant U-turn for many reasons: the protest voters who didn’t expect leave actually to win; the ones who felt misled by the promise of £350m a week for the NHS; the ones spooked by the plunging pound and, more recently, the faltering negotiations.

In fact, the figures have remained stubbornly static. While opposition to Brexit is hardening among remainers – according to YouGov, the number who believed the referendum result should be honoured plummeted from 51% to 28% between June and October – movement from leave to remain is slow. In October, the proportion of voters who felt that Britain had made the wrong choice reached a new high of 47% versus 42% (the rest weren’t sure). But that’s not yet enough to change the political calculus.

Humans do not instinctively enjoy changing their minds. Admitting that you were wrong, especially when the original decision has huge ramifications, is a painful and destabilising experience that the brain tends to resist. Research into this kind of denial has given us concepts such as cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. To admit that you now believe you were wrong requires unusual honesty and courage. I contacted dozens of leave voters who had expressed regret on public forums. Many didn’t reply. Some agreed to talk, and then got cold feet at the last moment. A few, fearful of stoking tensions with relatives and colleagues, or of attracting abuse from Brexiteers, would only be interviewed anonymously. Others wouldn’t risk even that.
"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:16 am

How Brexit Was Engineered by Foreign Billionaires to Bring About Economic Chaos – for Profit



A right-wing Tory Brexit will end with huge deregulation. This will be sold to the general public as freedom from the red tape of an EU bureaucracy that Britain escaped, not the public protections put in place over decades to ensure civil society thrives. But as George Monbiot opines: “Ripping down such public protections means freedom for billionaires and corporations from the constraints of democracy. This is what Brexit is all about. The freedom we were promised is the freedom of the very rich to exploit us.”

https://www.globalresearch.ca/how-brexit-was-engineered-by-foreign-billionaires-to-bring-about-economic-chaos-for-profit/5614194
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:59 am

Ivan wrote:How Brexit Was Engineered by Foreign Billionaires to Bring About Economic Chaos – for Profit


....George Monbiot opines: “Ripping down such public protections means freedom for billionaires and corporations from the constraints of democracy. This is what Brexit is all about. The freedom we were promised is the freedom of the very rich to exploit us.”

https://www.globalresearch.ca/how-brexit-was-engineered-by-foreign-billionaires-to-bring-about-economic-chaos-for-profit/5614194

Probably not far from the truth, but "the freedom of the very rich to exploit us" depends upon the degree of public willingness to be exploited. Unless slavery is to be made legal, workers will always have the right to withdraw their labour. Most of the ideas in the chart above have a clear US origin, where there has always been that "can-do" attitude which can place the right to make a profit above rights of the individual.

Much of our modern way of life has been copied from the Americans, but the traditional British sense of fair play quietly limits the possibilities for total exploitation.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:13 pm

"...the traditional British sense of fair play quietly limits the possibilities for total exploitation. "

Have you met Mrs Hornby...?

I'm safe at present - she's out right now...   Shocked
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:37 pm

My Mum said we should never intrude on personal grief. Razz
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:55 pm

For heaven's sake, keep your voice down - she's home now...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:55 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:21 pm

Brussels should be told to 'sod off' over financial demands, Priti Patel says
Evening Standard

Ms Patel, who has been tipped as a potential leadership candidate in any future contest, said the Tory grassroots should be given a greater role in the party, including at the annual conference.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-latest-brussels-should-be-told-to-sod-off-over-financial-demands-priti-patel-says/ar-BBFQQQl?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:22 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:03 am

Tory Brexiteers to vote against their own government?  Halleluja!

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:25 pm

The government's Office for Budget Responsibility published revised GDP growth numbers based on data following the June 2016 referendum. Those new estimates suggest that Brexit will cost Britain £72 billion in lost annual economic activity by 2021, according to an analysis by the Resolution Foundation.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/%c2%a372-billion-the-cost-of-brexit-is-already-turning-britain-into-a-second-rung-nation/ar-BBFxz6e?ocid=iehp

On the same topic:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/longest-fall-in-uk-living-standards-looms/ar-BBFwLgp?li=AA54rU&item=personalization_enabled:false
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:27 pm

"EU Tells May: If Brexit Offer Is Unacceptable To Ireland, It's Unacceptable To Us"

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/eu-tells-may-if-brexit-offer-is-unacceptable-to-ireland-its-unacceptable-to-us/ar-BBG1lLz?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp

This lofty Tory administration, which resents telling even MPs anything of its Brexit plans, is unlikely to eat humble pie but may have to reverse 500 years of regarding Ireland as a vassal neighbour.

Here in 2017,  Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has the British Government over a barrel where an Ulster Customs border is concerned.

What larks!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:26 pm

Recent media coverage of Mrs. May's Brexit negotiations implies that nothing at all has been resolved. "Explanations" serve only to confuse the reader, as opposing view-holders suggest one unlikely scenario after another. As in choices of what newspaper to read, there is something for everyone.

" Pantheon Macroeconomics' Samuel Tombs argues that Britain won't actually end up leaving the EU.
He believes a transition deal will be agreed and implemented, but once the UK comes to the end of the transition period, Britain will stay in the bloc.
That's because Brexit will be so bad for the UK that no politician will be willing to stake their career on its implementation.
(Tombs is known for correctly calling the result of June's general election when most commentators failed to do so.)

When Brexiteer MPs side with the Ulster DUP's resistance to change, you know things cannot end well.


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Who speaks for the Union?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:23 pm



When I was a Trade Union Branch Secretary, we had regular meetings with "Management" but quickly learned to discern between an HR "Manager" and an HR "Director".  The latter would be up-to-date with Company policy and intentions, whereas  the HR Manager probably knew less than I did.

Brussels must by now have concluded that Mrs. May does not actually have the authority to seal any kind of "deal".

Time to "call Time" on the poor woman, so that she can spend more time with her family?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:30 pm

Ah, but as Andrea Leadsom tried to exploit in the Tory leadership campaign last year, Theresa May does not have a family. She has, however, managed to turn the UK into the laughing stock of Europe.

'We can't go on like this': mood of resignation in EU as Brexit talks stutter

Theresa May is afraid of her own shadow, her government is weak and Brexit is proving nonsense.”

Theresa May taken hostage at the Irish border.” (Libération)

The bottom line is that the May government is facing an impossible task.  Promises made to British voters during the referendum campaign and before June’s snap election could not be kept. The government is in an ever-worsening, deteriorating cycle. I love Britain and I hate to see what is going on.” (Petri Sarvamaa, Finnish MEP)

"Brexit is the biggest political nonsense since the Roman emperor Caligula made his favourite horse a senator." So says Peter Kapern of 'Deutschlandfunk', the nearest thing the Germans have to our BBC.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/05/we-cant-go-on-like-this-mood-of-resignation-in-eu-as-brexit-talks-stutter
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:36 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:42 pm

"....what started out as a fear that the government was hiding the warnings of civil servants, or that dodgy dossiers had been sexed up to say what ministers wanted, has turned out to be something far worse: the absence of any planning...."

Dan Roberts in The Guardian

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/mps-feared-a-david-davis-cover-up-worse-he-had-nothing-to-hide/ar-BBGi8n5?li=AA54rU&ocid=iehp
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 pm

So that's it then. All done and dusted. A pre-dawn dash to Brussels settles all problems in time for Christmas - Well done Mrs. May!

Though effectively it was a UK climb-down on three "not negotiable" matters that allowed Brussels to decide better the devil you know than one you may not want to know.

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. It ain't over until the fat lady sings, and the seat of UK government is now in Belfast. What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:46 pm

My nightmare is that the British public will become wise to the antics of the Tories, vote them out by a landslide - and Mrs May and her henchpersons will simply barricade themselves in at no 10, with the help of the army and refuse to stand down - they are increasingly showing contempt for democracy and the rule of law and it's a tiny step from their current position to a military takeover
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:51 pm

It ain't over until the fat lady sings
That's no way to talk about Arlene Foster! Shocked

What could possibly go wrong?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQXFyj6WkAAoOEN.jpg



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQXD4usXcAEyXLk.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:57 pm

Not one of these problems was caused by the EU:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQWJ4yGX0AA79YP.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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