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Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

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Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.


Last edited by Ivan on Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:42 pm

Ivan wrote:Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

No, they should not. Imiigrants come here to work, like we can go to Europe and work if we wish. This is called "freedom of movement in employment".

Iimmigrants have to work for one full year, before being allowed any benefits. But even then, immigrants only receive one third of what Britain's unemployed receive.

Many immigrants who cant find legal work, work in our black economy, where they are exploited by British bosses.

Asylum seekers are not allowed to work by law so there are no welfare benefits for these people, instead they are given vouchers to live on, around £35 quid a week to live on. But I could be wrong on the amount ?

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:45 pm

bobby wrote:Bluey. How many of the 77/100 are in fact dependants of the 23/100.
Perhaps had your Tory heroine not decimated British manufacturing, in her bid to wreck the unions, there would be enough work for many more. Had not Thatcher created the YUPPIE culture "dont create anything, just wealth" our kids and grand kids wouldn’t have such an inflated opinion of themselves, and would be more prepared to work in the trades, instead of all wanting to be pop stars footballers or bankers. You only have to watch the telly and all these crap programs like the X Factor and Britain’s got Talent. They all want a short cut to fame and fortune, very few want to work the pubs and clubs or take proper singing lessons.
When I was having my workshop built, I overheard one of the English Brickies saying to someone else “ I wouldn’t bother getting out of bed for less than £200.00 per day” (this was in 1999), this bricklayer recons he was worth £1000.00 per week for 5 working days, then they wonder why 1st people cant afford their greed and secondly immigrants especially Polish get the job at a lower more realistic rate and you get a better job done.
We shouldn’t blame the immigrants, but the greed of our own. Then I’m forgetting the British trait of needing someone else to blame. It used to be the Jews, Then the Blacks, then the Indians, then the Muslims and now we are picking on the Europeans, Who Next.

I am British born and bred. And you bobby, have just hit the nail, right on the head.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:48 pm

sickchip wrote:Should immigration be perceived as a solution?

Only when Brit's move to countries in Europe is there a problem. We try to create the Empire, all over again.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:47 pm

The true story of an immigrant to the UK

Mr Singh saw an advert in Delhi in 2003 stating that the British NHS was looking to recruit medical professionals due to a shortage, and so Mr Singh been a qualified doctor applied and was accepted.

On arrival in the UK Mr Singh was told that allthough his skills were very much in short supply, and that his skills were much needed, he would only be issued with a 6 month visa, he then would need to re-apply after the six months.

And so off Mr Singh went to work in a London hospital, his salary was £22,000 per year, from this he paid income tax and national insurance, though not been a British citizen or a citizen of the EU he could not claim any kind of benefit.

Eventualy after a couple of years of hard work, passing exams and promotion, Mr Singh moved north to Yorkshire, and even though he continued to renew his Visa, and even though he continued paying tax and national insurance, he knew he would need to look after his job because he was not entitled to claim any kind of UK welfare payments.

Eventualy Mr Singh had to conform to a new rule which applied to him as an Indian citizen, though the same rule did not apply to Poles, Greeks, Lithuanians or anyone from the EU; The new rule related to his ability to speak English, even though English is the language of the professional classes and is the only language spoken nationwide in India, Mr Singh still had to take the test.

After 9 year of working in the NHS, Mr Singh has paid thousands of pounds in income tax and national insurance, he has also paid thousands in VAT, he pays council tax and duty on petrol, he has brought a much needed skill which was in short supply, he buys goods and services in shops in Yorkshire.

This is a true story, and there are thousands of Mr Singhs in this country.

These people give, give, give to society but take nothing, infact they are not allowed to take anything.

And there are many people living on housing estates up and down this land who will not work for the minimum wage because they can get more on the dole, these same people blame immigrants for taking all the jobs.

funny old world


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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:53 pm

witchfinder wrote:The true story of an immigrant to the UK

Mr Singh saw an advert in Delhi in 2003 stating that the British NHS was looking to recruit medical professionals due to a shortage, and so Mr Singh been a qualified doctor applied and was accepted.

On arrival in the UK Mr Singh was told that allthough his skills were very much in short supply, and that his skills were much needed, he would only be issued with a 6 month visa, he then would need to re-apply after the six months.

And so off Mr Singh went to work in a London hospital, his salary was £22,000 per year, from this he paid income tax and national insurance, though not been a British citizen or a citizen of the EU he could not claim any kind of benefit.

Eventualy after a couple of years of hard work, passing exams and promotion, Mr Singh moved north to Yorkshire, and even though he continued to renew his Visa, and even though he continued paying tax and national insurance, he knew he would need to look after his job because he was not entitled to claim any kind of UK welfare payments.

Eventualy Mr Singh had to conform to a new rule which applied to him as an Indian citizen, though the same rule did not apply to Poles, Greeks, Lithuanians or anyone from the EU; The new rule related to his ability to speak English, even though English is the language of the professional classes and is the only language spoken nationwide in India, Mr Singh still had to take the test.

After 9 year of working in the NHS, Mr Singh has paid thousands of pounds in income tax and national insurance, he has also paid thousands in VAT, he pays council tax and duty on petrol, he has brought a much needed skill which was in short supply, he buys goods and services in shops in Yorkshire.

This is a true story, and there are thousands of Mr Singhs in this country.

These people give, give, give to society but take nothing, infact they are not allowed to take anything.

And there are many people living on housing estates up and down this land who will not work for the minimum wage because they can get more on the dole, these same people blame immigrants for taking all the jobs.

funny old world



""And there are many people living on housing estates up and down this land who will not work for the minimum wage because they can get more on the dole, these same people blame immigrants for taking all the jobs"".

Oh, what rubbish you talk. You sound like a right old Hilda Ogden. Have you ever been on the dole ?

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by astra on Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:07 pm

Witchy,


It was not so long ago (awaiting incoming retort!!) Smile

That Ghandi threw out 5 generations of Indians (they were born there) because they were the wrong colour!

I think it is time to grow up (not yersell' personally!) and stop pandering to these people.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:34 pm

Ivanhoe

Yes - I have been on the dole, infact I was once made unemployed and decided to make application for housing benefit, this was at a time when I rented a flat, I was at that time a man of very humble means.

After reading through the forms for applying for housing benefit, and after been told by various people that its a complete minefield, and that I would wait weeks, possibly months before I get anything - I decided not to bother - instead I worked in two different jobs for the minimum wage.

I hope that answers your question
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:55 pm

witchfinder wrote:Ivanhoe

Yes - I have been on the dole, infact I was once made unemployed and decided to make application for housing benefit, this was at a time when I rented a flat, I was at that time a man of very humble means.

After reading through the forms for applying for housing benefit, and after been told by various people that its a complete minefield, and that I would wait weeks, possibly months before I get anything - I decided not to bother - instead I worked in two different jobs for the minimum wage.

I hope that answers your question

""Yes - I have been on the dole, infact I was once made unemployed and decided to make application for housing benefit"".

So, you tried and decided not to. So why decry anybody who succeeds in getting means tested help to pay their rent, particularly people in houses and not flats, because houses are generally more expensive in the high rent privater sector.



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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Serena on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:23 pm

When I was having my workshop built, I overheard one of the English Brickies saying to someone else “ I wouldn’t bother getting out of bed for less than £200.00 per day” (this was in 1999), this bricklayer recons he was worth £1000.00 per week for 5 working days, then they wonder why 1st people cant afford their greed and secondly immigrants especially Polish get the job at a lower more realistic rate and you get a better job done.
We shouldn’t blame the immigrants, but the greed of our own. Then I’m forgetting the British trait of needing someone else to blame. It used to be the Jews, Then the Blacks, then the Indians, then the Muslims and now we are picking on the Europeans, Who Next.
 
 
 
I think that brickie was pulling your leg just a little bit.
 
My grandfather,father, brother and nephew were/are all in the building trade and not one of them earned anything like 200 a day*- and that is in London and the home counties.
 
Polish builders would work for £15 a day 5 to 10 years ago. No British worker could compete with that. My brother had no choice but to lay off one of his labourers and cut the rate he paid the others from £50 to £40 a day, yet he could barely keep afloat. Maybe we shouldn't blame the Polish builders, but the unscrupulous people who employed them. My brother refused to do it, but a man he knows who boasted of his low wage bill was undercut by one of his own workers and soon went bust.
 
* My father sometimes earned £125 a day, but he was a master builder and very skilled. He certainly wouldn't have expected to be paid that for just building a work shop.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:51 pm

"So why decry anybody who succeeds in getting means tested help to pay their rent, particularly people in houses and not flats, because houses are generally more expensive in the high rent privater sector."

I dont understand where you are coming from Ivanhoe - I dont decry anyone who needs and requires state help to get by, to pay rent, to live on the dole through no fault of their own.

I think you refer to my post regarding immigrants, and the reference I made to people in this country who wont get out of bed because they are GIVEN more money from the state than they could earn from going out to work.

What realy realy makes me very angry is that many young people in this country will not go out into the fields and pick vegetables because (A) its too hard for them, and (B) why should they, because they can get almost as much money for doing sweet F A.

I come from a Labour voting background, a Labour voting family, but my family knew what hard work is all about, they knew what "pride" means, and they had no time for scroungers and lazy buggers.


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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by bobby on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:33 am

Serina. The Brickie in question wasn't actually talking to me, I just overheard him. My workshop is a very large one in Surrey for a specialist trade, dont get confused with a garage at the side of a house, anyway thats not the point as bricks laid are bricks laid, and many brick layers get paid by the ammount of bricks they lay, not by the day or hour, some brick layers even employ extra hod carriers as one can not keep up with him. Two hundred pounds a day is very reachable for a good quick Brick layer, my point is that they are pricing themselves out of the market as others will do 100 bricks at a lower rate. Remember, they are not master builders, just master brick layers and only have to be good at one thing.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:26 am

Open any "free newspaper" and it will be full of display adverts for "odd jobbers" who offer to do small repair jobs around the home, No job too small, discount for pensioners. The sub-text is no VAT charged or paid, and please don't tell the taxman about it.

How can an honest Trader compete with the black economy?
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:20 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The solution is obvious.

Don't pay benefits to any claimant with a funny name and/or can't instantly say what happened in 1066.

Eastern European immigrant's cannot claim any benefits until they have worked for one full year without being unemployed, and even then they only receive one third what Britain's unemployed get.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by bobby on Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:23 pm

There are many English people with names like Ogwuku, and I doubt many of them know what happened in 1939/45.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:53 pm

If we have free movement of capital, free movement of labour will inevitably follow. Don't waste time ranting - Organize!
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:57 pm

Penderyn wrote:If we have free movement of capital, free movement of labour will inevitably follow. Don't waste time ranting - Organize!

Okay, where do you live ?
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:35 pm

QUOTE: "If we have free movement of capital ...."

From where does "if" originate in the movement of Capital?
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Immigration into the UK - could there ever be a political consensus on this issue?

Post by Stox 16 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:15 am

Well before I write what Ed Miliband said about the last Governments Immigration policy, I would like to make a few observations of my own about the whole question of immigration policy in General. (1) immigration is just about the one policy that is almost impossible to hold any sort of intellectual debate with the right wing with. as in there minds all UK immigration is down to the failure of the Centre Left anyway (utter rubbish) but that is there line on it anyway and not mine I may add. (2) any debate you do have will end up with very silly remarks and I hope this will not happen this time (3) its a subject that everyone fears having, just in case its seen as us being racists. (also Totally stupid in my view) So I for once hope this topic on here will finally be debate it in a intelligent way for once. As its long over due in my book. As let me be totally clear to everyone. BOTH PARTIES HAVE MADE MISTAKES WITH OUR POLICY ON IMMIGRATION. no one party has really been better or worse at this in my view.

I have posted this on this page to see if there could ever be a political by party consensus between as all on a policy we could stick too on immigration?


Well today Ed Miliband admitted that the last Labour Government made serious mistakes on Immigration and that our parties leadership was reluctant to address this issue head on. That employment agencies are recruiting only or mainly migrant workers and that stricter enforcement of the minimum wage laws are needed..... Now these are the main Key points I think without posting the whole story.


Now I happen to believe this is a very brave act on Ed Milibands part. As he is 100% dead right to point out that we made mistakes over immigration policy. He is also very brave to have made this speech while leading within the polls. as he will be fully aware that that the Tory Party will pick up on this and attack Labour party for saying we made a mistake and that Ed Miliband is a hypocrite over his role within the last Government.


Well lets me just say this to you all. Ed Miliband made this speech today with everything to lose and very little to gain by making such a speech in the first place. in my own view As its His party that is leading in the polls and not the Tory party. So its the Labour party and its leader that has everything to lose by opening up this can of worms. Not the Tory Party.



Now lets see if we can come too some sort of political consensus between as all? I think this would be a first for any political forum to see if its members could agree to any up with one consensus on just one national policy?

if it help's I believe that this will be impossible to do for any forum ? as you would not just be debating but have to fine points to agree on with a Tory. to come up with a policy that both could agree too. interesting to see what will happen with this topic.

over to you all.


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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:59 am

Miliband is simply making a statement to appease the masses, whilst were part of the EU project he can't (and certainly won't change the immigration policies (his party put in place). Regardless of which party is in control, we have a centre left government that believes in the EU project and nothing will (or can change), so it's all sound bytes and not brave at all. Now if he came out and promised a referendum on the EU (sure that has happened recently) then that would be move that would have a more profound affect on people, rather than the appeasing nonsense that slides out of his gob when he opens it.

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Mel on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:28 am

"Miliband is simply making a statement to appease the masses"

Playing Cameron at his own game.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:01 am

Quite right melly, they do tend to move in the same circles, both went to the school of Blair politics and both know that the plebs have a political memory not exceeding 18 months, so say anything knowing people will put their own spin on it regardless.

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:16 am

Sorry, but ‘sorry’ isn’t good enough
Ed Miliband is apologising today for Labour’s open, generous and unlimited immigration policy, which saw millions of foreign nationals flood into the country ostensibly to meet the needs of the economy. Forget how many billions it cost the taxpayer in housing, welfare benefits and translation services. Forget how many schools have been forced to employ dozens of ‘support staff’ in order to deal with half a million children who do not speak English as their first language. Forget how many indigenous Britons were bypassed for council housing in favour of ‘higher priority’ immigrants with greater needs (ie more children). Forget the impact on hospital waiting lists, or to getting an appointment with a GP or dentist. And forget how much irreversible damage all this has had on community cohesion.

When Ed Miliband apologises for Labour’s immigration policy, he has statistics in his head, political posturing in his heart, and absolutely nothing in his soul. This is no sincere or meaningful apology, because there is no attitude of regret and not a shred of insight or analysis into the culture of equality and interminable political correctness which produced the policy.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.co.uk/

Now you know why education and the NHS are f*cked and we have a succession of inept mp's (all sides) in control with their "right on" politics.

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Mel on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:56 am

"Sorry, but ‘sorry’ isn’t good enough
Ed Miliband is apologising today for Labour’s open, generous and unlimited immigration policy, which saw millions of foreign nationals flood into the country ostensibly to meet the needs of the economy."

With respect, a slight self cotradiction here.

Quote previous post "Miliband is simply making a statement to appease the masses, whilst were part of the EU project he can't (and certainly won't change the immigration policies (his party put in place).

Surely if we agree that we were and are still part of the EU project as you rightly say, then you can't blame the last Labour government for having to adhere to EU immigration intake rules?

Again I agree that neither Ed nor Dave can alter things as the both falsly claim unless we have a vote on the EU as previously promised you must recall by Cameron before the election only to renege on that promise.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:05 am

Remember that Blair also offered a referendum melly? As to the EU experiment, nobody in this country voted for anything other than be a trading partner within Europe, seemed like a good deal at the time. It's pointless to complain about failing institutions (education, NHS and the justice system) whilst we sit around with an open door policy.

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:00 pm

The open door admits traffic in both directions. British workers are free to sell their skills to employers in 27 other European countries, to collect unemployment benefits there if entitled, health care if necessary and to set up their own business on the Continent.

Thousands do, but nowhere near enough to match the number of Europeans who wish to work here.

What's the difference?
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by sickchip on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:21 pm

What's the difference?

A lot of people speak english as their second language? Rolling Eyes
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by blueturando on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:38 am

I dont understand??? All you Labour posters have defended your parties immigration policy for as long as Ive been on this forum and anyone who brought it up or questioned it was labelled a right wing racist. So are we suddenly not racists because Ed finally comes clean on the issue? Or were we right all along and you were in the wrong?

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:38 am

oftenwrong wrote:The open door admits traffic in both directions. British workers are free to sell their skills to employers in 27 other European countries, to collect unemployment benefits there if entitled, health care if necessary and to set up their own business on the Continent.

Thousands do, but nowhere near enough to match the number of Europeans who wish to work here.

What's the difference?


Surely the difference is that the majority of Europeans who wish to work here are from the poorer East European countries who find employment here where there is none, or little, at home. Bit pointless then to go there for work unless you have specific skills. Then those skills are probably more useful, and better paid, in other European countries.

UK firms advertise thousands of jobs in Romania despite growing jobless toll

By Emily Andrews and Colin Fernandez
UPDATED:08:04, 31 January 2012

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2094220/UK-firms-advertise-thousands-jobs-Romania-despite-growing-jobless-toll.html#ixzz1yh5GQ4mJ

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Mel on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:58 am

blue, do you not read others posts here? perhaps it is the case that you are so keen to get your sixpennyworth in that you fail to look at what others have said that answers you question.

Example "Surely if we agree that we were and are still part of the EU project as you rightly say, then you can't blame the last Labour government for having to adhere to EU immigration intake rules? "

Scaremongering again, it's a common trait of you Tories in desperation mode.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:02 pm

Should allowances be made for postings after midnight?
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Mel on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:05 pm

"Should allowances be made for postings after midnight?"

Noooo. Unless they tend agree with me OW. Very Happy
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by betty.noire on Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:30 pm

The word racist is such an overused word and used in many different contexts , it ceases to have any meaning.

Interesting that Milliband raised the subject, I remember Old Gordie getting cross with a punter who dared raise the question to him Laughing
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by astra on Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:52 pm

Hello Betty,

As you say, that "word" is much overused, and the people who throw it around with such gay abandon (? Laughing ) do not care the implications this can have on their victims!

Who would be a paediatrician these days, when it gets mixed up with paedaphile.

The difference is only a trashed car and a few broken windows!
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by astra on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:13 pm

OW wrote :

The open door admits traffic in both directions.


It is just that we do not see so many folk lining up at Mc Donald's in Dover as we do at thon place in Sangat!

Go Ahead group have a recruiting office in Warsaw!


Last edited by astra on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by astra on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:27 pm

Thanks OW -

Earlier this month, UK unemployment hit 8.4 per cent, its highest level since 1994. But official figures show that nine out of ten jobs created in 2010 went to foreign nationals.

When I pointed out then, that something like this was happening in Nissan, AP OFFSHORE and Go Ahead Group (buses) we were on MSN boards. It was old 'baconfarter' (who amongst others) went into denial mode, called me a racist amongst other things. Wonder what the pillock (er disrespectful young person Rolling Eyes ) would say now!
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Redflag on Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:58 am

Mel wrote:blue, do you not read others posts here? perhaps it is the case that you are so keen to get your sixpennyworth in that you fail to look at what others have said that answers you question.

Example "Surely if we agree that we were and are still part of the EU project as you rightly say, then you can't blame the last Labour government for having to adhere to EU immigration intake rules? "

Scaremongering again, it's a common trait of you Tories in desperation mode.

Your quite correct Mel there are certain rules and regulation attached to us being in the EU, the only place where there could be changes is to the countries that are not in the EU.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:09 pm

Well I think there is a great deal that can be done. as what we are really talking about here is economic Immigration as it was sold as a policy to fill a skilled worker problem. but what its turned into is a cheap employment policy for companies to walk away from sick pay and Redundancy payments. if you really wish to reduce economic Immigration then its dead easy. you make is a requirement to met the some legal rights UK people have. its quite wrong that workers are faced with a employment law that does not favour either the economic migrant or British workers. in fact the only people who are benefiting from this are bad employers who what cheap Labour.

I believe that this has driven down not only wages but has driven down the overall quality of British manufacturing. as people lose interest in the product when they see people working for low wages who stand next to them on some production line. I visited a company and was drinking a cup of tea in there works canteen and listened to a small group of British workers talking to each other. what they was saying is why should I care about the quality of what we make when the company is employing a group of Eastern Europeans who do not care one bit about what we make. as too them its just one days pay and no more than that. I thought yes I can see that. as i am not sure if I would really care in there shoes either.

Still the most interesting thing was to read both our Tory party friends replay on this topic. as they have nothing to really say other than we are right and Labour is wrong. in fact they have both missed the point as ALL PARTIES HAVE GOT THIS WRONG. but am I surprised that they had nothing positive to add. No. just trying to point score. However, I have never said in any post that I supported the last Governments policy on economic Immigration at all. as I have never agreed with economic exploitation of either Eastern Europeans or British workers alike. nor have I supported any idea that this sort of economic exploitation cannot be ended within the EU.

As its quite easy to do. but there is just no will to do it. as what we are really talking about is a level playing field across Europe in general. as this right wing dream of a low wage and Low manufacturing economy to compete with China will just never happen. in fact what we should be looking for is a fair wage and high quality manufacturing economy like Germany and North Italy.

if this is what you really believe in then you have to invest in your own people and stop paying for short term employees who do not care at all what they produce. The truth is hard to take in economics but if you wish to compete at the bottom end of the world market then carry on and employ cheap untrained one day only Labour. as yes your company overheads will fall as fast as your company orders. but if Germany can show us anything then its that one BMW sold in China is worth a get deal more that 10 cheap cars made in China. but if you all wish to end up with poor quality manufacturing then we should carry on with hiring cheap Eastern European workers as they will give you that with out a problem. while we pay for 3 million British worker living on benefits full time or better still force them into jobs with live in poverty while the Government pays to top up the wages that should of been paid by there employer in the first place.

as lets just stop kidding ourselves. that low wages are somehow good for the UK. because the real truth is the UK State is just subsidizing companies would pay low wages one way or the other.

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:16 pm

blueturando wrote:I dont understand??? All you Labour posters have defended your parties immigration policy for as long as Ive been on this forum and anyone who brought it up or questioned it was labelled a right wing racist. So are we suddenly not racists because Ed finally comes clean on the issue? Or were we right all along and you were in the wrong?

This is just about your worst post ever Blue. as this has nothing do do with racism at all, but everything to do with economic Immigration. I was sort of hopping you could address this topic. but guess not
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:24 pm

Mel wrote:"Sorry, but ‘sorry’ isn’t good enough
Ed Miliband is apologising today for Labour’s open, generous and unlimited immigration policy, which saw millions of foreign nationals flood into the country ostensibly to meet the needs of the economy."

With respect, a slight self cotradiction here.

Quote previous post "Miliband is simply making a statement to appease the masses, whilst were part of the EU project he can't (and certainly won't change the immigration policies (his party put in place).

Surely if we agree that we were and are still part of the EU project as you rightly say, then you can't blame the last Labour government for having to adhere to EU immigration intake rules?

Again I agree that neither Ed nor Dave can alter things as the both falsly claim unless we have a vote on the EU as previously promised you must recall by Cameron before the election only to renege on that promise.

This is very true last Labour government for having to adhere to EU immigration intake rules? but know thought this would end in economic exploitation. its this that needs sorting out Mel. as believe me. if the companies who have engage in this act for profit had to pay the same of they do for UK people the boat home to the Easten Europe will fill up over night. what we have here is nothing more than a economic employment loop hole in cheap Labour.
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by blueturando on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:21 pm

Stox....I will address the issue, but my annoyance comes from years of being labelled a racist or bigot for even trying bring up the subject of uncontrolled immigration. So are we only now allowed to have our opinion since Miliband has come clean and recognised there is and always was a legitimate issue?

Most people can only draw on their personal experiences, so with me living in Jersey for a number of years, I can only tell how things are done here...But! I can tell you that the area I grew up in is almost completely unrecognisable from when I left the UK.


So here in Jersey we have a very cosmopolitan population, but the number of economic migrants in controlled in various ways.

The system that works here is that each company (excluding tourism) is granted with a number of licenses to recruit people who have not lived in Jersey for 5 years or more. The number of licenses issued to a company is dependent upon the size of their work force....So if you have 15 to 20 staff you would be granted one license...and so on. The company still has to prove to the employment and social security department that is has tried to recruit locally without success before the company can use their license. The only caveat to this is when there is an expected need for temporary staff and the company can recruit a foreign national for a maximum of 1 year. They then cannot fire that staff member and take someone else on for another 1 year to get round the rules.

So this is the crux of the policy here...there is more to it, but I wont bore you with all the fine details. I cannot see why something like this would not work in the UK (excluding the NHS in the UK and Jersey) Local people are given preference..... as they should be, but companies can still employ economic migrants if they fail to fill the position (with limited numbers)

Just to end this, I would like to say I am in favour of immigration...in a sensible and controlled way
It was inevitable that if thousands upon thousands were let in under the last administration (and this one) then there would be huge numbers of people fighting over finite job opportunities. This in turn creates a culture where unscrupulous employers can take advantage and pay below the going rate knowing there are always other people who will take the jobs if their current employees complain

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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Mel on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:47 pm

"Just to end this, I would like to say I am in favour of immigration...in a sensible and controlled way
It was inevitable that if thousands upon thousands were let in under the last administration (and this one) then there would be huge numbers of people fighting over finite job opportunities. This in turn creates a culture where unscrupulous employers can take advantage and pay below the going rate knowing there are always other people who will take the jobs if their current employees complain"

That part of your post is somewhat true blue. However you spoil it by
saying "It was inevitable that if thousands upon thousands were let in under the last administration (and this one)". You say it as if both parties could have curbed the amount of immigrants "let in", they couldn't, as we keep telling you, EU ruling for Gods sake man.

This is where Tory propaganda via the press/media feed false information of blame to the masses and they fall for it hook line and sinker. "It's all New Labours fault" Pha!!!. Ignorance is bliss!!!
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Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

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