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Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

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Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:54 pm

Is a fertilized egg a "person"...? Mississippi is voting on just that...an initiative to define personhood for the unborn.

Opinions? If the premise that a fetus doesn't have "the right to life" because it's not legally a person, then wouldn't changing the legal definition of a person to include a fertilized egg be a legitimate argument. After all, the legal right to an abortion in the U.S. is predicated upon the supposition that an unborn fetus is not a person...however, a huge contradiction exists because the law allows for the death of a fetus at the hands of a person OTHER than the mother as "fetal homocide" and "fetacide", a criminal offense.

My opinion, for those who don't know, is that abortion and the trivializing of the unborn erodes our humanity. As an atheist, I don't base this belief in religion but the unwavering stance that when we look at the unborn as mere "tissue" to be excised at will, we all lose some of our humanity.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:47 pm

Its a funny old world that we live in, and humans are strange animals with very odd beliefs and moral standards

There are humans who breed and rear horses and treat them like pets, like children, they raise money to save and protect horses, they believe that the Belgians and French who slaughter horses for food are barbaric, yet these same people would think nothing of sitting down to a lamb dinner or veal escalope.

There are people who love dogs, people who spend all their spare time caring for dogs, there are people who raise money for dogs, many humans treat dogs like children, show them the same love and affection, yet these same people would think nothing about eating rabbit pie, venison or duck.

There are people who claim that even a fertilized egg within the uterus of a woman is a human being, and therefore demand the sanctity of precious life which should never be taken away, yet these same people never flicker an eye lid when a person goes to the gas chamber, or the electric chair.

Seems to me that theres a lot of double standards





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Thanks for deleting my thread about Mississippi trying to make fertilized eggs "persons"...

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:20 am

nice bit of fascism there....
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:35 am

Except that it hasn't been deleted - it's been moved to the "religion and related issues" board.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:58 am

Well, it is a USA issue ... it could also go under Crime and Punishment ... and I suppose it could be Religion and Related Issues since the law itself is religious in nature to some degree. It could have been left in any of those three.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:06 am

The law is NOT religious. There is NOTHING religious about defining when life begins.

Attributing it to "religion" is simple-minded....people, especially those on the left, are conditioned to respond to anything regarding abortion as "religious".

I don't see how defining when life begins legally has anything to do with religion.

As it is a U.S. issue, it was properly categorized to begin with...the issue is of no relevance to the U.K. other than commentary.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:11 am

I don't see much of a double standard in your example. One can believe that innocents lives should be protected by society...whereas, if one's going to a death sentence it's more than likely that it's because of their crime of unlawfully TAKING a life.

I don't see a conflict here.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:12 am

If you hand someone an egg and tell them to break it, they will without hesitation. If you hand them an ax and tell them to cut the head off a live chicken, most people would say no. No one, not even PETA to my knowledge, raises a fuss over slaughtering unborn chickens if we crack open a few eggs for breakfast. I think the point is pretty clear. A fertilized egg is not a person anymore than a standard Grade A egg is a chicken. No, I'm not comparing a person to a chicken, either, but I am pointing out how we define things. Calling a fertilized egg a "person" is a contrived definition. A fertilized egg is a potential person, but it is not one. An unfertilized egg is also a potential person. In fact, so is every act of intercourse. An egg is not a self-aware entity anymore than a chair is - it does not feel, it does not think, it does not dream of the future.

Mississippi needs to get its act together. Thousands of accidental babies is the last thing an impoverished state like that needs. These religious nutjobs have all the pragmatism of a lead brick. It's also yet another example of how religion is insinuating (or trying to) itself into our civil law. It is wholly unconstitutional (yes, I know you disagree, Oz, but we've been down that road). Mississippi needs to learn from certain African countries that have rampant population growth, most living in poverty, because of the absence of any kind of birth control. Do those politicians really believe that banning birth control will stop people from having sex? These guys didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. They're still ON the turnip truck! Maybe one of them will suffer a slip-and-fall, hit his head on something hard, and reality will then dawn upon him. Until then, I fear Mississippi is half a century behind the rest of the world. I bet that's something to be proud of.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:17 am

My opinion, for those who don't know, is that abortion and the trivializing of the unborn erodes our humanity.

Oz, you are aware that Mississippi is trying to ban birth control, right? This is where the whole "fertilized egg" nonsense is coming from. This is not about abortions. I missed this part with my first read (I usually read all posts I plan to respond to twice for this very reason) or I would've included it in my original point. This kind of legislation is primitive, backward, and sets a dangerous precedent for other conservative, religion-benighted states to follow. If a proposal like this were to actually pass, it would be the beginnings of a humanitarian nightmare. Damned conservatives whine about how much welfare costs and snarl at poor women who have babies - and then they pull this stunt. Nothing like shooting themselves in the foot for a good laugh.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:24 am

Here we go ... goodbye democracy, hello theocracy. Hey, do any of you Brits want to let me stay with them until I find my own place? I want to live in a free country. Cool

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:35 am

Some of us think of a fertized egg as "not a person" because when life begins has never been legally defined and we've been conditioned to believe that such a moment does not exist.

Liberals tend to take the idea that since when life begins hasn't been defined that it can not be defined....which is untrue. If life is legally defined as beginning at conception, then much of their ideology becomes "immoral"...thus, the obvious pushback against defining when life begins.

We, as a society, do ourselves absolutely no good by avoiding at all costs the defining of when life begins. It undermines our humanity and lessens the regard we exibit for it.

When an egg is fertilized, cellular replication begins...this is biologically when "life" begins. The fertilzed egg is an individual entity with it's own DNA...it is absolutely not a "part" of the mother's body.

Why is it that when we search for "life" on other planets that we are looking for even the faintest hint of a single cell organism...but a "human" life is not recognized as such unless it's birthed into the world? I'll tell you why....it's because we've been conditioned to believe and accept it.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:37 am

The law is NOT religious. There is NOTHING religious about defining when life begins.

Nonsense. It has everything to do with religion. Pro-life and religion goes hand in hand. Hell, on my way to class during grad school I was repeatedly bombarded by religious nutjobs who camped out at a major intersection and spat their anti-abortion doctrines that fairly oozed with religion. They even used the Bible to justify it. We can all pretend this is a secular issue, but, well, that would be pretending. If you wrap a cross in secular Christmas paper, does the cross lose its religious meaning? Of course not ... and this ballet initiative in Mississippi is nothing more than wrapping a cross in a brown paper wrapper and trying to claim it is secular. I'm not buying it one little bit.
Attributing it to "religion" is simple-minded

LOL @ "simple minded." No, it's broad-minded because I'm not analyzing every little piece independently. I see the forest, not just the trees. Why do you think they want to "redefine" when life begins? And why push it all the way back to a fertilized egg so we can have millions of oopses running around in poverty. Does that REALLY make any pragmatic sense to you to the point where you'd defend it? I at least can empathize with abortion. I'm torn on that issue ... but not an effing fertilized egg. This crap has to stop.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:42 am

There is NOTHING religious about defining when life begins.
LOL. Try telling that to anyone on the religious right. Whenever abortion is mentioned, religion is never far away, and it’s certainly a “related issue”.

The last six of the ten discussion boards are topic-based and are not specifically for UK threads. I agree with Shirina that your thread could be relevant to three boards. However, one of my main concerns at present is to keep discussion flowing, and I felt that your topic might receive more ‘hits’ on the “religion and related issues” board.

We don’t make a habit of deleting threads without warning, this isn’t MSN. If there was something wrong with your thread, you would be asked to change it. If an opening posting was illegal or very abusive towards another member, then it might be deleted, but you would receive notification. I moved your thread, I didn’t delete it, so it hardly constitutes “fascism”. I also moved a thread started by another American poster a few days ago, but instead of name-calling she sent me a PM to ask what had happened. With hindsight, I should have notified you (and her) of what I had done.

You might care to read the posting advice and avoid writing mini-essays in the titles of threads in future.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:55 am

As I am an atheist and have long expounded on this, I should draw absolutely no correlation to a "right-wing nut" on the issue of defining when life begins or abortion...the presumption that the subject at hand is properly hijacked into a religious discussion is due to your predispositions, not mine.

Since there was no mention my post of any religious affilation, argument or sourcing I've no conclusion to draw other than an objective discussion of the facts of the matter is impossible.

Liberals...it's funny how they tend to think of themselves as "intellectual" when so much of what they do is the opposite.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:56 am

Liberals tend to take the idea that since when life begins hasn't been defined that it can not be defined....which is untrue. If life is legally defined as beginning at conception, then much of their ideology becomes "immoral"...thus, the obvious pushback against defining when life begins.

It has nothing to do with liberalism. Uhm, perhaps you've heard that the world population just hit the 7 billion mark? Well, here's something that may jostle you a bit if you have any sense - which I know you do:

Oct. 12, 1999 — The world’s population topped the 6 billion mark Tuesday, with the birth of a baby in Sarajevo.

Twelve years, Oz. That's all it took. Twelve years to add another billion to the world's population. Doesn't that tell you anything? At this rate, there will be 12 billion before I take my last breath. Yet look at us. Look at the poverty, the competition for resources, the escalation of prices, the lack of good jobs, the overcrowding, the pollution, the wars ... I mean, holy shit, Oz, if we can't manage a world with 7 billion, 12 billion will be an apocalypse, and America will just add to the problem with stupid laws like these. Hey, if you want to define life as an embryo? Great ... I won't like it, but so be it. But to push it back to the moment of conception has got to be one of the most foot-in-mouth, brain-dead, rubbish-filled ideas since the Pet Rock.
It undermines our humanity and lessens the regard we exibit for it.

"Undermines our humanity." Really? Every other civilized nation regards health care as a right. Conservatives think health care is nothing but another for-profit business, and if you can't afford it, well, go lie on a couch and wait to die. Now that undermines our humanity. Therefore, I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't wash. It would almost appear that a fertilized egg has more right to life than a fully formed and functioning human being.
but a "human" life is not recognized as such unless it's birthed into the world?
Hehe, why not tell me why conservatives cease to recognize human life as such after it is birthed into the world?

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:22 am

As I am an atheist and have long expounded on this

Like I said, I can at least appreciate and empathize with the issue of abortion. I've waffled back and forth on that issue for a long time. But this is madness. Surely you can see that? How long do you think it will take before 300 million becomes a billion with no birth control? Do you want your children or grandchildren to try and compete in a society with that many people?
I should draw absolutely no correlation to a "right-wing nut" on the issue of defining when life begins or abortion...the presumption that the subject at hand is properly hijacked into a religious discussion is due to your predispositions, not mine.
You're looking at the science, I'm looking at the motive. You know, Oz, I have debated Creationists for at least 10 years, and do you know how they try to defeat Big Bang and evolution? Why, by using science, of course. You seem to be naive to the fact that religion WILL use science against secularism if it fits their agenda, and they do it all the time. Now, I know where you're trying to go with this, but you and the Mississippi "geniuses" are barking up the wrong tree. Defining when LIFE begins does not define when that life becomes human. Is an egg a human being? No, it's an egg, fertilized or not. You're trying to gerrymander the definition of life to be synonymous with "human," but it's not. It's a fallacious argument since if that were true we would have to call an egg a chicken ... but do we? Would we? No. Otherwise we would have to re-think our laws about animal cruelty, now, wouldn't we. May as well pass a law stating it is illegal to break an egg for any other purpose than to eat it. Foolishness!
Liberals...it's funny how they tend to think of themselves as "intellectual" when so much of what they do is the opposite.
If the Bible Belt Brigade in Mississippi thought for a moment that defining life would result in scientists saying a baby has to be born before it is considered "alive," you can bet your bottom dollar they would stay away from this approach and even discourage defining when life begins in the first place. Funny how so many of them will reject science when it comes to Big Bang and evolution but suddenly embrace it if they think they can get something from it. How fortuitous for them, eh? These bozos cherry pick science with the same alacrity as they cherry pick the Bible. Intellectualism is more than just "book-learning," it's also knowing how people think, at least for me... and it mystifies me why you can't see what's going on and the inherent danger this brings to our way of life.

And, if you actually read the proposal, they're not trying to define a fertilized egg as life ... we all know it's life. Abortion is still legal even though we know a fetus is life. They are trying to legally declare a fertilized egg as a PERSON! With all the rights and privileges thereof. That means you could be charged with 1st degree murder for killing a fertilized egg, for God's sake. Madness if ever it existed.

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:46 am

Traditionally, there are three topics of conversation that should not be discussed over dinner in the Officers' Mess: Politics, Sex and Religion.

Maybe the Board could adopt that policy to avoid offending anyone, but then it would probably please no-one.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:12 am

If we banned those three topics, I think the board would become a little-used wasteland. I don't think many here are into the whole fluffy chat thread scene where we post good-mornings, good-nights, talk about what we had for dinner, and then log out.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astradt1 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:53 am

Question Question

If as some Mississippians would have us believe, life begins at fertilisation, should couples be made to hold a furneral every 28 or so days?.........

They could never know if the ovum being expelled had been fertilised and just not embedded in the endometrium that month for what ever reason.........
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by witchfinder on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:37 am

The pro-life people often use expressions like "the sanctity of life" or "precious life" and they tell us that we have no right to terminate life, and my point is that in many instances these same people are often pro capital punishment, and I believe this is hypocracy.

Sanctity - the condition of been inviolable: sacredness; The sanctity of marriage [dictionary]

Common sense tells me that abortion is wrong if: a life in the form of a human is terminated in such circumstances where pain, distress or suffering occurs during the termination process.

An egg is not a life in the form of a human, and no pain, suffering or distress takes place in the destruction of a human egg, the argument is crazy, an egg bares no resemblence to human form, there are no human features, no bodily parts or a pumping heart, no ability to think or see, and no nervous system to feel pain.

The argument put forward is based on moral religious grounds and not on moral scientific grounds

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:02 pm

Nothing loke a bit of "Cut and Thrust"


Not too much mind, can't keep up thesedays Sad
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:19 pm

Defining when LIFE begins does not define when that life becomes human. Is an egg a human being? No, it's an egg, fertilized or not. You're trying to gerrymander the definition of life to be synonymous with "human," ~ Shirina

But, when that "life" is the product of human reproduction it IS human....and thus my contention that abortion debases our humanity by treating that "human" life as if it were to a chicken egg is the fallacious context here...

There must, at some point, be a reconciliation between alllowing a "mother" to kill off her unborn child with no penalty as her "choice" and the law treating the death of an unborn child at fetal homocide. Either the unborn child is a person with a right to life or it isn't....that right doesn't waffle depending on who decides to end it.

Also...the chicken eggs you buy in the store are not fertilized, just an FYI.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:30 pm

I do think that one thread on this topic is enough, and that on balance this is the most appropriate board for it. I've never yet heard a discussion on abortion in which religion didn't come into the argument.

Please note that no messages have been deleted. Thank you.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:12 pm

If as some Mississippians would have us believe, life begins at fertilisation, should couples be made to hold a furneral every 28 or so days?......... ~ astradt


One has to question how, at your age, you still do not comprehend the reproductive cycle....
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:16 pm

An egg is not a life in the form of a human, and no pain, suffering or distress takes place in the destruction of a human egg, the argument is crazy, an egg bares no resemblence to human form, there are no human features, no bodily parts or a pumping heart, no ability to think or see, and no nervous system to feel pain.

The argument put forward is based on moral religious grounds and not on moral scientific grounds~ Astra

A fertilized human egg is inherently human as it could be nothing else....it is a fallacy that it only becomes "human" when it becomes self aware. It's not a chicken egg or a salamander egg...it is a HUMAN egg. Thus, the categorical statement that a fertilized egg in the process of human reproduction is not "human" is both logically false and divulges the lack of humanity possessed by those espousing such nonsense.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:18 pm

Ivan wrote:-
I do think that one thread on this topic is enough, and that on balance this is the most appropriate board for it. I've never yet heard a discussion on abortion in which religion didn't come into the argument.
The only person injecting religion into this current discussion is you. As this particular issue is a matter of importance in a state legislative process in the U.S. it was correctly posted to the USA Politics board...moving it here only exposes your own prejudices regarding the issue.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:59 pm

Oz wrote:-
The only person injecting religion into this current discussion is you.
Really?
Shirina wrote:-
the law itself is religious in nature to some degree…….These religious nutjobs have all the pragmatism of a lead brick. It's also yet another example of how religion is insinuating (or trying to) itself into our civil law…….Pro-life and religion goes hand in hand
Oz wrote:-
it was correctly posted to the USA Politics board...moving it here only exposes your own prejudices regarding the issue.
I beg to differ, and if you really must keep banging on about it, I suggest you need to get out more. I didn’t invoke “fascism” and delete your thread, as you claimed, and the contents of your messages have been respected and re-posted in full.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by witchfinder on Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:17 pm

Based on the arguments of the pro life campaigners, a male who masturbates is destroying life, a sperm is a living entity, though it is not a person or in the form of a human, it is the beginings of human life, a sperm is not a human being, its not even a fetus, its a sperm.

It is widely accepted amongst scientists and neurobiologists that a fetus is capable of feeling pain at or around the six month stage when all the nervous connections are complete, though there are some who dispute the evidence.

One thing is certain, and not in doubt, a fetus is not capable of feeling any pain what so ever below the four month stage, a fetus which is developing and is not capable of feeling pain is not a human being - it is a fetus.

I would repeat my initial conclusion based on scientific reasoning and logic, that aborting a fetus is wrong if that fetus is capable of sensing or feeling pain or discomfort, opposition to abortion on any other grounds including religion is not logical.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:20 pm

I argue that "Laws of the Land" came from a religious starting point!

Even the Celts and Picts had very basic, sometimes profound laws built into their religion, and the tax man can be seen as the Chief who picked up all the best fruits! Tithes are still seen as a LEGAL requirement in many religions to this day

As long as we know where the discussion is, we can input thoughts/ debate or harrangue as we feel.

I still think this is for the Woman to decide and males should keep out of it (iffin they did in the first place, it would be no debate!!)

All these puritanical legislators who are muddying the waters in USA are all very well paid for their efforts! (If any - hell even one, is operating on an honourary contract, ie unpaid, I should like to know!) I feel that if they were not getting paid for it they would not do it!

There are far far more pressing problems in the world right now to be taken care of without these Aholes causing a distraction.


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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:43 pm

It's not a chicken egg or a salamander egg...it is a HUMAN egg. Thus, the categorical statement that a fertilized egg in the process of human reproduction is not "human" is both logically false and divulges the lack of humanity possessed by those espousing such nonsense.

I think I've already debunked this argument sufficiently the first time around. An egg is an egg. It doesn't matter if it is human, salamander, or chicken. It's an egg. If we were to remove a fertilized human egg from the body, would we treat it like a person? No. As I said earlier, science can decide when life actually begins, but science cannot decide when to begin calling it a "person" with all the rights and privileges thereof. I've also already clearly demonstrated the hypocrisy of claiming the moral high ground when the conservative ideology would gladly let people suffer or die due to monetary greed - in direct contravention of every (EVERY) other democratized industrial First World nation. Oh, and I never said a fertilized egg wasn't human. We already know it's human. Of course, if you ran a DNA test on a dead flake of skin, it would show as human, too. So what? I'm saying that a fertilized egg is not a person.

And if you really want to see what devaluing humanity is all about, legally declare a fertilized egg to be a "person," ban all forms of birth control, and wait 50 years. Then you'll really see some devaluation going on. If you want to know what America will look like in 50 years, do a Google image search on Indian slums. For you see, Oz, I don't think, I know the outcome of overpopulation. I know it first hand because I've been there. It already exists, and it should serve as a lesson to us.

Incidentally, did you not once claim that you felt as though people should not have their lives extended, especially if they were past a particular age (I'll assume here that this means all people who are no longer productive)? That if someone at age, say, 66 and retired was diagnosed with cancer, we should just let them die? I think your exact words were, "letting them live past their expiration date."

Perhaps you aren't the best spokesperson for the sanctity of human life. I like you Oz, you know that, but you are just plain wrong on this issue, and wrong on all fronts. Sorry. Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:51 pm

Time to get out my moderator crown. queen

As the moderator of this particular board, I'd appreciate it if ALL parties involved could keep the discussion to the topic at hand - be it religious, legal, moral, or ethical. I wouldn't want to see this devolve into an argument over where the thread should be, who moved it, for what reason, or whether or not the action was fascist. My thanks in advance.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:13 pm

Shirina, re that last paragraph in your post, I recieved this email today and thought of your words!

BREAKING NEWS!!

To save the economy, on OCTOBER 23, 2011
The PM will announce that HE is ordering the immigration department
to start deporting old people (instead of illegals) in order to lower
Social Security and Medicare costs.

Old people are easier to catch, and most will not remember how to get back home!

I started crying when I thought of you.


RUN, YOU OLD BUGGER, RUN!!

Well..... Someone sent it to me and I'm not going alone!
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:37 pm

There's no point in growing older unless at the same time you can become too crafty to catch.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:01 pm

"Based on the arguments of the pro life campaigners, a male who masturbates is destroying life, a sperm is a living entity, though it is not a person or in the form of a human, it is the beginings of human life, a sperm is not a human being, its not even a fetus, its a sperm." ~ witchfinder

twaddlespeak...thus, everything succeeding can rightfully be flat ignored.


Last edited by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:07 pm

"I still think this is for the Woman to decide and males should keep out of it (iffin they did in the first place, it would be no debate!!)" ~ Astra

that's all well and good except the "menfolk" are constrained to pay for her "choice" with no input in the matter. if it's truly "her choice", then let her pay for it herself if "the man" wants the pregnancy terminated but she doesn't. geese and ganders and all that....


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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:11 pm

Incidentally, did you not once claim that you felt as though people should not have their lives extended, especially if they were past a particular age (I'll assume here that this means all people who are no longer productive)? That if someone at age, say, 66 and retired was diagnosed with cancer, we should just let them die? I think your exact words were, "letting them live past their expiration date."

Perhaps you aren't the best spokesperson for the sanctity of human life. I like you Oz, you know that, but you are just plain wrong on this issue, and wrong on all fronts. Sorry. ~ Shirina

two completely seperate issues...there is on conflict in believing that treating the unborn like cancerous tissue to be excised and flushed down the toilet debases our humanity and that people who've lived their life should be held responsible for their decisions and life-choices that contribute to their own ill-health and demise without throwing the burden of keeping them alive in spite of themselves on the rest of us.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:15 pm

"I think I've already debunked this argument sufficiently the first time around. An egg is an egg. It doesn't matter if it is human, salamander, or chicken. It's an egg. If we were to remove a fertilized human egg from the body, would we treat it like a person?" ~ Shirina

It's this thinking that is the road to oblivion for humanity....when we no longer see ourselves as anything more than the beasts with whom we share the planet.

I, for one, still make the distinction between being a chicken or a human being....regardless of the point in the timeline of life an entity is found.


Last edited by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:18 pm

Oz, can you try using the quote box, fourth from the left? It would make it a lot easier to decipher who said what!
Crying or Very sad
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:19 pm

And if you really want to see what devaluing humanity is all about, legally declare a fertilized egg to be a "person," ban all forms of birth control, and wait 50 years. ~ Shirina

fallacious histrionics. "birth control" typically means the PREVENTION of impregnation....although, the lefties think of abortion as "birth control" when, in fact, it's population control. and we already treat a fetus as a "person"...fetal homicide or feticide is a part of our criminal code.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:24 pm

"One thing is certain, and not in doubt, a fetus is not capable of feeling any pain what so ever below the four month stage, a fetus which is developing and is not capable of feeling pain is not a human being - it is a fetus.

I would repeat my initial conclusion based on scientific reasoning and logic, that aborting a fetus is wrong if that fetus is capable of sensing or feeling pain or discomfort, opposition to abortion on any other grounds including religion is not logical." ~ witchfinder


so, you're making the case that being a "human being" is dependent upon the ability to feel pain??? are quadriplegics only human beings from the neck up then?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

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