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Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

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Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is a fertilized egg a "person"...? Mississippi is voting on just that...an initiative to define personhood for the unborn.

Opinions? If the premise that a fetus doesn't have "the right to life" because it's not legally a person, then wouldn't changing the legal definition of a person to include a fertilized egg be a legitimate argument. After all, the legal right to an abortion in the U.S. is predicated upon the supposition that an unborn fetus is not a person...however, a huge contradiction exists because the law allows for the death of a fetus at the hands of a person OTHER than the mother as "fetal homocide" and "fetacide", a criminal offense.

My opinion, for those who don't know, is that abortion and the trivializing of the unborn erodes our humanity. As an atheist, I don't base this belief in religion but the unwavering stance that when we look at the unborn as mere "tissue" to be excised at will, we all lose some of our humanity.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by timeout on Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:56 am

Kazza wrote:One the one hand, we are responsible for nurturing life and recognising its potential. We are also responsible for making decisions for those those who are incapable of doing so. As we are finding ways to detect foetal anomalies during earlier stages of development, it should be easier and less controversial to abort within the first few weeks, rather than wait until the foetus develops   a more human-like appearance. In theory, this should appease the pro-lifers who believe all life, however miserable it may eventually turn out to be, is viable. But I doubt they will be happy until our small world is overcrowded and impoverished, with care homes bursting at the seams with dependent adults and children.
i don't think all the pro-lifers want an overcrowded world full of unwanted babies. i think the agenda for some is to stop unmarried people having sex. i think the idea is to make it illegal to have an abortion, even leaving a state to go elsewhere to have one, so that people will be so afraid of getting pregnant they will not have sex. if they do have sex and pregnancy results then marriage or adoption and shame become the only choices. i believe there is talk of dubious 'spontaneous' abortions being treated as murder unless the pregnant mother can prove otherwise! there's definitely a religious contingent out there that want to 'clean up' society's loose morals and intend to do it through draconian punishment measures.

the pro-life debate is a very emotional issue for them to push their agenda from.

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:01 pm

timeout wrote:
i don't think all the pro-lifers want an overcrowded world full of unwanted babies. i think the agenda for some is to stop unmarried people having sex. i think the idea is to make it illegal to have an abortion, even leaving a state to go elsewhere to have one, so that people will be so afraid of getting pregnant they will not have sex. if they do have sex and pregnancy results then marriage or adoption and shame become the only choices. i believe there is talk of dubious 'spontaneous' abortions being treated as murder unless the pregnant mother can prove otherwise!  there's definitely a religious contingent out there that want to 'clean up' society's loose morals and intend to do it through draconian punishment measures.

the pro-life debate is a very emotional issue for them to push their agenda from.
I hadn't thought about it like that but you may well be onto something there.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by timeout on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:35 pm

Dan Fante wrote:
timeout wrote:
i don't think all the pro-lifers want an overcrowded world full of unwanted babies. i think the agenda for some is to stop unmarried people having sex. i think the idea is to make it illegal to have an abortion, even leaving a state to go elsewhere to have one, so that people will be so afraid of getting pregnant they will not have sex. if they do have sex and pregnancy results then marriage or adoption and shame become the only choices. i believe there is talk of dubious 'spontaneous' abortions being treated as murder unless the pregnant mother can prove otherwise!  there's definitely a religious contingent out there that want to 'clean up' society's loose morals and intend to do it through draconian punishment measures.

the pro-life debate is a very emotional issue for them to push their agenda from.
I hadn't thought about it like that but you may well be onto something there.
i find it very scary. although promoted as pro-life it's really a pro-religious values agenda. it's not that big a step in a religious environment to go from right to life at conception to contraception being a sin (look at the Catholics) so you can outlaw contraception, ban abortion and make sex outside of marriage, especially casual sex a frightening prospect! a right to life for an unborn baby becomes the right to force a religious morality on everyone.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:02 pm

the argumement will go on forever and ever will it not?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:43 pm

spin is just being totally sick on peters thread at the moment, i've had to calm down before posting to peter. It was when TSC Was answering my post on there.Mad Twisted Evil 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:48 pm

Spin's an attention seeker, Stu. That's his whole reason for being on the forums.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:55 pm

Yes I know Dan, but he is only posting on that thread now, and that is what annoys me.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:33 pm

He probably thinks that's the place he's most likely to get a rise out of people so he can do his 'mock indignation' and 'moral high ground' act.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:14 pm

He knows that it will annoy me there too and roma and sheldon etc I really could not understand mrs shaw talking to him all the time when we all agreed to have him on ignore, she's changed her name but you all know who she is?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by timeout on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:01 pm

Dan Fante wrote:Spin's an attention seeker, Stu. That's his whole reason for being on the forums.

seems to me that spin has changed over the last few months. he used to be annoying at times but mostly seemed pretty coherent (oh how i hate that word now thanks to Paul) whereas now he does really seem to just be out to troll. a bit sad i think.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Kazza on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:19 pm

I can't fathom for the life of me why, if spin annoys everyone so much, they continue to engage with him. I haven't had anything to do with him for ages. One of the reasons I like this forum is that I don't have to scroll down endless pages of spin's trolling, or posters moaning about his trolling, or spin whining about the voting system...if I don't have much time to post here, I can enjoy reading the posts without the spin-isms.Neutral 
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fertilized egg

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:29 pm

I popped over to the old site to see what was going on, and most of yesterday spin and jack and Sheldon were having a very nice argument. Is there not enough on this site to stop posters going back over there arguing, it is not only Sheldon, more of the old ones have gone back.[edit]what makes me even madder, who was the person that suggested this site? yeah only changed her name and stayed on there, theres some two faced people about thats all I can say. Suspect 


Last edited by stu on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding)
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:39 pm

Dan Fante wrote:Looks like Spin's trying to pull you, going off that last post there, Sheldon. Laughing
Hi Dan, Spin made a rather sily attempt to analogously compare a universe

"bursting into being from nothing, with a deity bursting into being from nothing"

I pointed out the analogy was a poor one as his assertion that science assumed the first wasn't entirely true since we have empirical evidence that the universe exists, and no such evidence for a deity. I also pointed out his use of the word nothing in this context was overly simplistic. In the usual style we have all come to know from Spin he ignored my post completely, repeatedly making personal attacks on me, and then accusing me of attacking him personally. I told him I hadn't attacked him, but if he'd like to point to a post of mine where he thought I had, then I'd be happy to review it and if necessary edit it and apologise. Of course he didn't respond to this offer, just attacked me again, he's the worst troll I've ever encountered. Rolling Eyes 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Bellatori on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:40 pm

stu wrote:I popped over to the old site to see what was going on, and most of yesterday spin and jack and Sheldon were having a very nice argument. Is there not enough on this site to stop posters going back over there arguing, it is not only Sheldon, more of the old ones have gone back.[edit]what makes me even madder, who was the person that suggested this site? yeah only changed her name and stayed on there, theres some two faced people about thats all I can say. Suspect 
I still post there occasionally, Stu, but nothing like I used to. It's a bit like withdrawal symptoms Very Happy ... Who changed their name?

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:48 pm

Dan Fante wrote:Spin's an attention seeker, Stu. That's his whole reason for being on the forums.
I have to agree, as far as his on-line persona on the Amazon forum is concerned, his thinly veiled attempts at polemic are just to hook people, then he returns to form every time. He has to be the most supercilious egotistical prig I've ever had the misfortune to encounter. He's a troll, and a bully, he's pathologically dishonest, intellectually retarded, morally ambivalent, and emotionally stunted. It is my sincerest hope that his on-line persona on that forum in no way reflects his real personality.

Wow, that was cathartic....Cool 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:51 pm

Kazza wrote:I can't fathom for the life of me why, if spin annoys everyone so much, they continue to engage with him. I haven't had anything to do with him for ages. One of the reasons I like this forum is that I don't have to scroll down endless pages of spin's trolling, or posters moaning about his trolling, or spin whining about the voting system...if I don't have much time to post here, I can enjoy reading the posts without the spin-isms.Neutral 
You're right of course, I suppose stubbornness when someone tries to bully me is one of my many failings. I have to say though it's his rank dishonesty that rankles the most. I can handle aggressive polemic, but can't abide dishonesty.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:57 pm

stu wrote:I popped over to the old site to see what was going on, and most of yesterday spin and jack and Sheldon were having a very nice argument. Is there not enough on this site to stop posters going back over there arguing, it is not only Sheldon, more of the old ones have gone back.[edit]what makes me even madder, who was the person that suggested this site? yeah only changed her name and stayed on there, theres some two faced people about thats all I can say. Suspect 
last night was the first time I have posted on there for a while stu, there are still some interesting people on there. I only actually made two points and spin lost it to be honest. Jack's on ignore so I've no idea what he was saying, and after the dishonest way he used multiple logins when I first started posting on there to post pretending he was me I simply don't trust his motives, and to be fair it has avoided any repetition of the trouble since he's been on ignore. Though obviously I have no idea what he's been saying.
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Reply.

Post by JP Cusick on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:01 pm

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:The law is NOT religious.  There is NOTHING religious about defining when life begins.

Attributing it to "religion" is simple-minded....people, especially those on the left, are conditioned to respond to anything regarding abortion as "religious".

I don't see how defining when life begins legally has anything to do with religion.

As it is a U.S. issue, it was properly categorized to begin with...the issue is of no relevance to the U.K. other than commentary.
I agree with Oz as abortion is not a religious issue.

It is peculiar that the outspoken Atheist here are claiming it is a religious issue, but me as an openly declared religious person sees it as not a religious issue.

Also I see Oz referred to as a "troll" and no longer posting here - so that is saying something here too.

As I expect that I am the other troll who will be the next to disappear.

In religion the issue of abortion is very clear as "Thou shall not murder" so it is not a religious topic.

From a scientific and medical perspective a fertilized egg is a person, and that is where the Atheist denials need to debated.

The subject being debated by the Mississippi Legislature means that it is a political issue - and there again not religious.

I say people call abortion as religious simply because everyone knows that it is a direct violation of the religious doctrine of "Thou shall not murder."

If there were no murder (or even no killing) then the religion would have nothing to do with that.

Idea 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:29 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:there are still some interesting people on there.
You should get them to come over here. Very Happy 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:30 pm

Sheldon ten posts on aliens created humans and four posts on peters thread all yesterday?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:32 pm

Shirina it was only one and that was arguing ok
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:34 pm

JP Cusick wrote:Also I see Oz referred to as a "troll" and no longer posting here - so that is saying something here too.
Oz referred to himself as a troll. He openly admits to being one. I've known Oz for a long time, longer than I've known anyone else on this forum as Oz and I go clear back to the old MSNBC US News board from 2006!

No one was referring to him as a troll except as a description he gave himself. He left of his own accord even though I tried to get him to stay. He wanted the freedom to, well .... be a troll. Since we don't allow a lot of gratuitous personal attacks, something he was known for, Oz decided to find a place where there were no rules.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:36 pm

JP Cusick wrote:I agree with Oz as abortion is not a religious issue. In religion the issue of abortion is very clear as "Thou shall not murder" so it is not a religious topic.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So it's not a religious issue....and in religion the issue of abortion is clear...scratch You may want to re-read that and edit it so it makes sense.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick From a scientific and medical perspective a fertilized egg is a person,
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Absolute nonsense, it's a Blastocyst, an insentient collection of cells, your knowledge of science is execrable.
and that is where the Atheist denials need to debated.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Denials of what? Your entirely risible and false claim that science views a Blastocyst as a fully formed human, priceless.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick The subject being debated by the Mississippi Legislature means that it is a political issue - and there again not religious.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Only if the two things are mutually exclusive, which of course they are not. You appear to be making claims for the entire theistic world, not the first time you've done so either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick I say people call abortion as religious simply because everyone knows that it is a direct violation of the religious doctrine of "Thou shall not murder."
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:You say, well you're entitled to an opinion of course, but your opinion on this is axiomatically false as religions spend a huge amount of money time and effort trying to stop abortion, and portray it using hyperbole with terms like murder, infanticide, and baby killing, most of which we've seen theists use on this forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick If there were no murder (or even no killing) then the religion would have nothing to do with that.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:religion would have nothing to do with what? That sentence makes no sense. scratch 


Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos and formatting)
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:49 pm

That is a shame Shirina, I do not believe anyone has said anything wrong to him have we? I do not like to hear of posters leaving. can you give it one more go on the posters behalf please?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:59 pm

Shirina wrote:
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:there are still some interesting people on there.
You should get them to come over here.  Very Happy 
Some of them have started posting on here as well. I was not of course suggesting that there weren't interesting people on here.Embarassed 

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:01 pm

stu wrote:Sheldon ten posts on aliens created humans and four posts on peters thread all yesterday?
Yes stu, it all happened quite quickly when I disagreed with Spin, he started attacking me, so I just kept repeating my original point really, unwilling to let him misrepresent what I had said. My own fault as I know what he's like. Time for some grub now, as I've not eaten yet tonight, catch you later buddy. Wink 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:17 pm

Eat well Sheldon, i've got a nice curry on top of a jacket tatty for mine later.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by timeout on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:25 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
stu wrote:I popped over to the old site to see what was going on, and most of yesterday spin and jack and Sheldon were having a very nice argument. Is there not enough on this site to stop posters going back over there arguing, it is not only Sheldon, more of the old ones have gone back.[edit]what makes me even madder, who was the person that suggested this site? yeah only changed her name and stayed on there, theres some two faced people about thats all I can say. Suspect 
last night was the first time I have posted on there for a while stu, there are still some interesting people on there. I only actually made two points and spin lost it to be honest. Jack's on ignore so I've no idea what he was saying, and after the dishonest way he used multiple logins when I first started posting on there to post pretending he was me I simply don't trust his motives, and to be fair it has avoided any repetition of the trouble since he's been on ignore. Though obviously I have no idea what he's been saying.
i keep popping by the old forum to see what's happening. to be honest i'm finding this forum very slow and uninspiring but the other forum has just dissolved into pointless bickering. there used to be some really good discussions there and much insight as well as knowledge for those interested. now it's become both comical and sad. there's still a couple of good posters there but they been dragged down by the others and a couple of old names that have returned like jackals sensing a wounded animal getting weaker. i'm also really really hating the ads on this site!
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:43 pm

Each to there own timeout, Sheldon was even on there tonight before coming on here looking for an argument with spin, didn't say owt about that did he? I personally will pack up altogether after peter has passed away,I JUST POST ON THAT THREAD. I think I will pack it in here too when you cannot believe the posters you talk to.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 pm

stu wrote:Eat well Sheldon, i've got a nice curry on top of a jacket tatty for mine later.
Had a bowl of my home-made chicken soup, and fresh bread from the bread maker. Thoroughly enjoyed that, but may have over done it.Embarassed  lying on couch now trying to breath....
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:11 pm

stu wrote:Each to there own timeout, Sheldon was even on there tonight before coming on here looking for an argument with spin, didn't say owt about that did he? I personally will pack up altogether after peter has passed away,I JUST POST ON THAT THREAD. I think I will pack it in here too when you cannot believe the posters you talk to.  
I never said I'd never post on there stu, I have taken a break from there for a while to get used to this site, and the formats. I see no reason not to check discussions on both sites buddy. It certainly isn't worth getting upset over..
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Kazza on Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:10 pm

Stu said "what makes me even madder, who was the person that suggested this site? yeah only changed her name and stayed on there, theres some two faced people about thats all I can say."

That might be an overreaction stu, Sam Hunter started the 'forum exodus' thread and suggested this site, I think. I agree with timeout in that I got fed up with the pointless bickering on Amazon and the endless deletions, but I'm not convinced it was any more inspiring than this forum - the same arguments have been doing the rounds since I started posting 2 years ago.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by timeout on Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:11 pm

stu wrote:Each to there own timeout, Sheldon was even on there tonight before coming on here looking for an argument with spin, didn't say owt about that did he? I personally will pack up altogether after peter has passed away,I JUST POST ON THAT THREAD. I think I will pack it in here too when you cannot believe the posters you talk to.  
my take on it is really to take part in what interests me and part of that interest is conversing with those who's postings have shown to be both genuine and thoughtful. i understand that some wish to battle the sometimes loony sometimes hateful and sometimes ignorant posters but time and time again i see them go nowhere because those posting have no wish to do other than spew their crap and feel good about themselves. in the end it all just ruins the forum for me. a little bit here and there is to be expected but when it chases itself from thread to thread it becomes too tedious to deal with and the good threads get more and more rare.

the real shame is that the more the good one's leave the more the crap is left to rule the roost.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:28 am

stu wrote:That is a shame Shirina, I do not believe anyone has said anything wrong to him have we? I do not like to hear of posters leaving. can you give it one more go on the posters behalf please?
Oh, no, no ... Oz left the forum perhaps a year or so ago, obviously long before you or the others from Amazon even came here. We did try to get him back just recently but he gave a rather adamant refusal. Sad 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:35 am

Kazza wrote:but I'm not convinced it was any more inspiring than this forum - the same arguments have been doing the rounds since I started posting 2 years ago.
Hmm, I'm not quite sure what you've come to expect from religious debates. Atheists and theists will always be staring each other down, arguing and counter-arguing against each other. It's just the nature of the beast.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Kazza on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:46 am

I enjoyed the arguing and counter-arguing. Repeating the same argument with the same poster over and over becomes tedious after a while. But maybe I get bored easily! Sleep 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:32 am

Hi Kazza, probably just me luv expecting a perfect world.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Bellatori on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:25 pm

stu wrote:Hi Kazza, probably just me luv expecting a perfect world.
You should take up religion, stu, if you want rose tinted spectacles and a perfect world. Very Happy There's a thought Very Happy 

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fertilized egg

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:50 pm

 Probably Bellatori, although the only neckwear of a preacher that I would like to wear and act as in real life would be one similar to what clint wore in pale rider. Then I could go from town to town etc cleaning it up my way. deadhorse 


Last edited by stu on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : emoticon did not work)
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Kazza on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:04 pm

You can borrow my rosy tinted specs stu. afro 
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Dan Fante on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:13 pm

stu wrote: Probably Bellatori, although the only neckwear of a preacher that I would like to wear and act as in real life would be one similar to what clint wore in pale rider. Then I could go from town to town etc cleaning it up my way. deadhorse 
I love that film. This scene by the way Laughing
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

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