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Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

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Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is a fertilized egg a "person"...? Mississippi is voting on just that...an initiative to define personhood for the unborn.

Opinions? If the premise that a fetus doesn't have "the right to life" because it's not legally a person, then wouldn't changing the legal definition of a person to include a fertilized egg be a legitimate argument. After all, the legal right to an abortion in the U.S. is predicated upon the supposition that an unborn fetus is not a person...however, a huge contradiction exists because the law allows for the death of a fetus at the hands of a person OTHER than the mother as "fetal homocide" and "fetacide", a criminal offense.

My opinion, for those who don't know, is that abortion and the trivializing of the unborn erodes our humanity. As an atheist, I don't base this belief in religion but the unwavering stance that when we look at the unborn as mere "tissue" to be excised at will, we all lose some of our humanity.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:24 pm

"One thing is certain, and not in doubt, a fetus is not capable of feeling any pain what so ever below the four month stage, a fetus which is developing and is not capable of feeling pain is not a human being - it is a fetus.

I would repeat my initial conclusion based on scientific reasoning and logic, that aborting a fetus is wrong if that fetus is capable of sensing or feeling pain or discomfort, opposition to abortion on any other grounds including religion is not logical." ~ witchfinder


so, you're making the case that being a "human being" is dependent upon the ability to feel pain??? are quadriplegics only human beings from the neck up then?

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by witchfinder on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:57 pm

GreatNPowerfulOz stated:

"so, you're making the case that being a "human being" is dependent upon the ability to feel pain??? are quadriplegics only human beings from the neck up then?"

To be able to feel pain is a normal bodily function of a human being, a fetus through much of its existence does not posess that ability.

Also, due to the fact that a fetus cannot feel pain, discomfort or stress during a termination, it therefore must be concluded that the termination is not inhumane, does not involve suffering and breaks no scientific moral code.



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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:56 pm

"To be able to feel pain is a normal bodily function of a human being, a fetus through much of its existence does not posess that ability.

Also, due to the fact that a fetus cannot feel pain, discomfort or stress during a termination, it therefore must be concluded that the termination is not inhumane, does not involve suffering and breaks no scientific moral code." ~ witchfinder

then, to your reasoning, conducting experiments on quadriplegics is just fine and proper, it being 'humane' and all....? how about those in a coma or a vegetative state...are they "fair game" as they can't feel pain? are those in a coma or vegetative state less than 'human' because of their lack of awareness of pain?

that's a pretty slippery slope....
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:43 pm

To shift in a nano second from foetus' to ill and infirm is a gigantic leap that should have been approached with less disdain!

Goal post shifting is for the politicos!
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:32 pm

"To shift in a nano second from foetus' to ill and infirm is a gigantic leap that should have been approached with less disdain!

Goal post shifting is for the politicos!" ~ astra

au contraire....the postulation put forth was that it's "ok" to kill a fetus because it's humane in that the fetus can't feel pain or discomfort. I'm merely drawing out the fallacy in that logic.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:53 pm

I agree that the whole thing about Abortion is untidy and 'unholesome' if thats a word.

If Doctors are prepared to perform the operation
If Women need their service

It HAS to be between these two groups.

If a Woman SAYS she has been raped, then the bloke, even if he is married to her, as far as I can see has nullified and negated his right to ANY say in future developments. This from an ex ambulance driver who has been caught up in this kind of fracas more than once!
You have to take into account that those females who put themselves about like spermbuckets rarely get 'caught'! why? (They usually end up under a paving slab somewhere like the Yorkshire Ripper's victims!)

Thing is that the medical profession do not get emotive about this, neither do the legal profession (until they are in front of the jury and can play at thespians!) and this annoys most folks! including me!!!

The actual mechanics of the act are beyond my realm of thought, and I much prefer to keep it that way.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:55 pm

there is on conflict in believing that treating the unborn like cancerous tissue to be excised and flushed down the toilet

You still seem to be seeing this whole issue as being about abortion. That's a separate issue as far as I'm concerned, so let me approach this in a different way. Do you feel that Morning After pills, birth control pills, et. al. should be banned because they kill or prevent a person from being born?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:50 pm

Birth control pills do not prevent a person from being born....they prevent impregnation. I've absolutely no problem with the prevention of impregnation. The "morning after pills" are intended to prevent the egg from being fertilzed by the sperm as well as preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the lining of the uterus, depending on how long after coitus the pill is taken. (generally, it's considered effective to take it within 3 days for these effects) I'd have to say that if taken immediately, then the "morning after" pill would be a viable birth control because it prevents the fertilizing of the egg rather than 2-3 days later which would then trick the body into dispelling the fertilized egg as not viable.

The issue is about "abortion" because your continuing references to "birth control" are erroneous....unless you are actually referring to abortion as a means of retroactive birth control. There is most definitely a very large difference between preventing an egg from being fertilized in the first place and disposing of a fertilized egg as an afterthought to birth control.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:10 pm

The paradox is that Pro-Life agitators evidently feel comfortable with shooting Doctors who facilitate abortion.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:50 pm

"The paradox is that Pro-Life agitators evidently feel comfortable with shooting Doctors who facilitate abortion." ~ oftenwrong


Let's see...there are an estimated 20-30 million abortions performed every year globally and how many abortion doctors are killed each year...?

I'd say your postulation that there is a paradox is rhetorical at best.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:33 pm

Everything I have ever posted has been rhetorical or satirical, beginning with the nom-de-plume.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:24 pm

Wink
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:38 pm

"Everything I have ever posted has been rhetorical or satirical, beginning with the nom-de-plume" ~ oftenwrong

Oh, I don't know about that...I'd say your nom-de-plume is entirely apropos.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:09 pm

STOP PRESS

Nut fails to crack sledgehammer...
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:20 pm

Don't take too much notice, Phil. Oz is trying to get himself in the Guinness Book of Records for the most number of people who one person can manage to insult on a single thread.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:06 pm

"Don't take too much notice, Phil. Oz is trying to get himself in the Guinness Book of Records for the most number of people who one person can manage to insult on a single thread." ~ Ivan

Whoa, someone's got their knickers in a bit of a twist.

On a side note...you do realize that I'm the troll that got the U.S. News boards shuttered, don't you? I'd say you've never even seen me hit second gear....lol. Hell, I even forgot that I'm the troll master who single-handedly broke the Dana Crew...the trolls who brought down the Yahoo boards.

I completely forgot what a badass troll I used to be.


Last edited by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:35 pm

Surely I can't be alone in being impressed...? Surprised
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:38 pm

"Surely I can't be alone in being impressed...?" ~ Phil Hornby

*huffs on nails...polishes them on shirt...hums "whistle while your work"*
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:44 pm

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:52 pm

"whistle while your work"

And as you sweep the room
Imagine that the broom
Is someone that you love
And you'll find you're dancing to the tune
When hearts are high
The time will fly so
Whistle while you work

"I'm not Happy!" Which one are you then?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:20 am

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:
Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Perhaps.

Alone among embryonic entities, a fertilized human egg has within it the potentiality for personhood, for ha adama, for the only entity created in the image of God. Thus, a fertilized egg is either a person or a pre-person, and any stance which assigns any less honor than pre-personhood to a fertilized human egg is an immoral stance, regardless of any ideologies and/or political affiliations held by the stance holder.

Period.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:06 am

witchfinder wrote:
There are humans who breed and rear horses and treat them like pets, like children...

True enough; however, regardless of these folks’ feelings, hordes are not humans, and fertilized horse eggs carry within them no human potentiality.

witchfinder wrote:
There are people who love dogs, people who spend all their spare time caring for dogs, there are people who raise money for dogs, many humans treat dogs like children...

True enough; however, regardless of these folks’ feelings, dogss are not humans, and fertilized dog eggs carry within them no human potentiality.

witchfinder wrote:
There are people who claim that even a fertilized egg within the uterus of a woman is a human being...

Also true enough; however, in stark contrast to horses and dogs, hunans are humans, and fertilized human eggs carry within them human potentiality.

witchfinder wrote:
Seems to me that theres a lot of double standards

You, my friend, are implicitly comparing apples to Volkswagens. Only humans are humans, and, alone among embryonic entities, only fertilized human eggs carry within them human potentiality.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:26 am

Shirina wrote:
If you hand someone an egg and tell them to break it, they will without hesitation.

If it’s a chicken egg, off course.

Shirina wrote:
If you hand them an ax and tell them to cut the head off a live chicken, most people would say no.

I wouldn’t. Chickens aren’t much good for anything except eating and producing eggs to eat.

Shirina wrote:
A fertilized egg is not a person

A fertilized human egg is either a person or a pre-person.

Shirina wrote:
An unfertilized egg is also a potential person.

No. An unfertilized egg is potential food. I ate two unfertilized eggs for breakfast Monday morning.

Shirina wrote:
Mississippi needs to get its act together.

If Mississippi passes the proposed legislation, Mississippi will be centered on the right road to getting its act together.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:57 am

Well this argument is now moot. The voters of Mississippi have rejected the proposal to grant fertilized eggs the status of "Person."

It appears sanity has prevailed.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:13 am

Shirina wrote:
Well this argument is now moot. The voters of Mississippi have rejected the proposal to grant fertilized eggs the status of "Person."

It appears sanity has prevailed.

It appears not. Sanity prevails when human embryos are recognized as what they are rather than what others convenience pre them to regard human embryos to be.

Maybe, in my lifetime, sanity will overtake selfishness.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:39 am

Maybe, in my lifetime, sanity will overtake selfishness.

Selfishness is having no care for the future.

Why stop there? May as well claim that refusing an offer or demand for sex is killing a pre-human.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:33 pm

Shirina wrote:
Maybe, in my lifetime, sanity will overtake selfishness.

Selfishness is having no care for the future.

Selfishness manifests itself in many ways, including having no concern for the lives of unborn humans.

Shirina wrote:
Why stop there? May as well claim that refusing an offer or demand for sex is killing a pre-human.

Since  a claim that “refusing an offer or demand for sex is killing a pre-human” is an erroneous claim, I may as well not “claim that refusing an offer or demand for sex is killing a pre-human.”
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:43 pm

Selfishness manifests itself in many ways, including having no concern for the lives of unborn humans.

I'm more concerned about the humans that are already born. The rights of fertilized eggs is pretty low on my "concern" list.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by astra on Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:06 pm

a child dies every 2 seconds, so we are told on the adverts on TV asking for even more money!

Still the couple in USA awaiting the arrival of their 20th child are keeping up with the , well I better not continue!
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:54 pm

I'm constantly amused at the idea that the human race has even the slightest control over the mechanism for reproducing itself.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:33 am

Shirina wrote:
Selfishness manifests itself in many ways, including having no concern for the lives of unborn humans.

I'm more concerned about the humans that are already born.

I’m concerned about “humans that are already born” and humans unborn.

Concern about one group does not preclude concern about the other group.

Shirina wrote:
The rights of fertilized eggs is pretty low on my "concern" list.

The inalienable rights to life of unborn humans is extremely high “on my ‘concern’ list”, right up here with the inalienable rights to life of born humans.

Placement of one group’s inalienable rights to life extremely high “on my ‘concern’ list” does not preclude placement of the other group’s inalienable rights to life extremely high “on my “‘concern’ list.”
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:54 am

Concern about one group does not preclude concern about the other group.

When concern for one group is detrimental to the other group, then I make the choice which group is higher on my "concern" list. I've made that choice.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:18 am

Shirina wrote:
Concern about one group does not preclude concern about the other group.

When concern for one group is detrimental to the other group, then I make the choice which group is higher on my "concern" list.

Both groups are ha adama, created in the image of God, and thus the highest pinnacle of creation. Nothing created can be higher than “highest”; accordingly, both groups are highest “on my “‘concern’ list.”

Shirina wrote:
I've made that choice.

As have I.

Two children are within a house ablaze. I trust the responding firefighter will rank both children “highest” on his “‘concern’ list.”

Shirina wrote:
When concern for one group is detrimental to the other group…

I’ve neither seen nor been made aware of any scholarly study which has concluded (1) that concern for unborn humans is detrimental to born humans, or (2) that concern for born humans is detrimental to unborn humans.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:17 am

Rock wrote:-
The inalienable rights to life of unborn humans is extremely high “on my ‘concern’ list”, right up here with the inalienable rights to life of born humans.
....apart from when you want to execute them.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:54 am

I’ve neither seen nor been made aware of any scholarly study which has concluded (1) that concern for unborn humans is detrimental to born humans, or (2) that concern for born humans is detrimental to unborn humans.
I think I've already covered that aspect in my previous posts. Jumping from 6 billion to 7 billion people in just 12 years should have alarm bells ringing in people's heads. I would prefer to head off the problem of overpopulation before we are overpopulated. I like to defuse the bomb rather than clean up the wreckage, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:51 am

Ivan wrote:
Rock wrote:-
The inalienable rights to life of unborn humans is extremely high “on my ‘concern’ list”, right up here with the inalienable rights to life of born humans.
....apart from when you want to execute them.
Sad

I remain quite satisfied, though not ecstatic, that Lawrence Russell Brewer has been executed. All of my compassion and tears in regards to the atrocity Brewer committed, and for which he was executed, continues to go to the Byrd family.

The inalienable rights to life of born humans remains extremely high on my concern list, evidenced by my active support of timely executions of those who, like Lawrence Russell Brewer, have displayed their disdain for the sanctity of human life by murdering humans. “Whosoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God created I man.”

My only regret is that Brewer’s execution was far more comfortable, painless, and compassionate than the execution Brewer perpetrated upon James Byrd.

Ivan wrote:
....apart from when you want to execute them.

I do not “want to execute them”; I want them to cease displaying disdain for the sanctity of human life by ceasing to murder humans. When all such beasts as Lawrence Russell Brewer do in fact cease murdering humans, the death penalty will become moot.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:34 am

Shirina wrote:If you hand someone an egg and tell them to break it, they will without hesitation. If you hand them an ax and tell them to cut the head off a live chicken, most people would say no. No one, not even PETA to my knowledge, raises a fuss over slaughtering unborn chickens if we crack open a few eggs for breakfast. I think the point is pretty clear. A fertilized egg is not a person anymore than a standard Grade A egg is a chicken. No, I'm not comparing a person to a chicken, either, but I am pointing out how we define things. Calling a fertilized egg a "person" is a contrived definition. A fertilized egg is a potential person, but it is not one. An unfertilized egg is also a potential person. In fact, so is every act of intercourse. An egg is not a self-aware entity anymore than a chair is - it does not feel, it does not think, it does not dream of the future.

I agree with you that a zygote, embryo or foetus is not a person, but is a potential person. I'm using person and person-hood to mean as you mention.. 'a self-aware entity. But it is a human at the very beginning of the life cycle. A human can be a person but not always, and a person can be a human but not always. Person-hood is not about species belonging.

Even at 6 mths old, a human infant is not a person even though we act towards that human in a way that supports its potential to be a person. It lacks self-awareness. The most profoundly disabled mentally often lack self awareness and so are not persons either... although they may have been prior to the high speed road accident that left them as a meaningless lump of human life... or Dementia may have taken it's toll. Not all retarded minds are born that way.

The real question I believe and which is causing this drive to make all humans persons, is whether an increasing number of abortions world wide cheapens the value of human life and its potential for person-hood?
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:49 pm

"Well this argument is now moot." ~ Shirina

The discussion of when "life" begins and at what point we recognize it is never moot.

Frankly, I'm rather disappointed in your cavalier attitude toward the issue....human life begins at the fertilzation of the egg and the fact that you don't "recognize" this life as human unless it becomes self aware is disturbing. There are many people who are not self-aware...are they also not "human" or "persons" to you? Is a person who is in an accident and consequently, a vegetative state no longer deserving of being considered a person or a human being and should be discarded as so much "tissue" then?

Your arguments are rhetorical, emotional and thoroughly illogical...quite a change from your normal personality...regarding this topic and it's a bit odd.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:51 pm

"I think I've already covered that aspect in my previous posts. Jumping from 6 billion to 7 billion people in just 12 years should have alarm bells ringing in people's heads. I would prefer to head off the problem of overpopulation before we are overpopulated. I like to defuse the bomb rather than clean up the wreckage, if you know what I mean" ~ Shirina

That's garbage. If you were TRULY more interested in population "throttling" then you'd encourage humanity to be more chaste in their behavior and responsible in their morality. Killing a fetus is NOT responsible....not creating it in the first place is.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:12 pm

Frankly, I'm rather disappointed in your cavalier attitude toward the issue....human life begins at the fertilzation of the egg and the fact that you don't "recognize" this life as human unless it becomes self aware is disturbing.
Is it really all that disturbing? Or are you simply posturing in order to have a debate? After all, you're the one who advocated withholding medical treatment from "human life" that has reached its "expiration date," as you put it. Why are you so willing to kill off the elderly but so adamant on protecting a fertilized egg? I'm just not buying the morality card that you're trying to play.
Your arguments are rhetorical, emotional and thoroughly illogical...quite a change from your normal personality...regarding this topic and it's a bit odd.
LOL! You say this every time you disagree with me.
If you were TRULY more interested in population "throttling" then you'd encourage humanity to be more chaste in their behavior and responsible in their morality.
Because we all know how well abstinence programs work. No, Oz, because I TRULY am interested in the inevitable problems of overpopulation, I am not going to endorse failed "pie in the sky" solutions like encouraging chastity and abstinence. Nor can you legislate or enforce morality when it comes to having children because no matter how you punish the parents, the children are still with us.
not creating it in the first place is.
Sure, I agree ... and in a utopian world, humans would be able to resist both the biological and social need to have sex. We wouldn't have a multi-billion dollar porn industry nor would we have every television show, movie, and commercial shoving sex in our faces 24/7 because sex wouldn't be on everyone's mind so much.

But, as we don't live in a utopian world ... well ... there you go.

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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:47 pm

Shirina wrote:
If you were TRULY more interested in population "throttling" then you'd encourage humanity to be more chaste in their behavior and responsible in their morality.
Nor can you legislate or enforce morality when it comes to having children because no matter how you punish the parents, the children are still with us.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you both and claim that you can legislate against people becoming parents without permission. All that needs to happen is for females at puberty to be made infertile with a Progestogen Implant, with hefty fines and compulsory abortions for those who fail to maintain their infertility. People can apply to the state to become parents.

It's not a perfect solution, but it would put a huge dent in the exponential population growth. It won't happen now, but I just may see it in my life time. All it takes is a significant move to a more evenly distributed global population and that is happening now. We are in the midst of a mass migration of peoples from Africa, South America and the Middle East to The West and The West is not equipped to handle it. War only increases population and mass migration... so it can't be long before we legislate against the freedom to choose parenthood.
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Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

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