Welcome to Cutting Edge. Guests can see and read the contents of most of the boards on this forum but need to become members to read all of them. Currently membership is instant, but new accounts may be deleted if not activated within fourteen days.

If you decide to join the forum, please open your welcome message for further details. New members are requested to introduce themselves on the appropriate thread on our welcome board.

Members may post messages and start threads, but it is essential that they read our posting rules and advice before doing so. If you have any immediate questions or queries, please post them on the suggestions board.

After posting at least ten messages, members are able to contact each other and the staff through our personal messaging system.

This forum is administrated by Ivan and moonbeam and moderated by boatlady and astradt1.

Thank you for visiting Cutting Edge.

Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Page 3 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is a fertilized egg a "person"...? Mississippi is voting on just that...an initiative to define personhood for the unborn.

Opinions? If the premise that a fetus doesn't have "the right to life" because it's not legally a person, then wouldn't changing the legal definition of a person to include a fertilized egg be a legitimate argument. After all, the legal right to an abortion in the U.S. is predicated upon the supposition that an unborn fetus is not a person...however, a huge contradiction exists because the law allows for the death of a fetus at the hands of a person OTHER than the mother as "fetal homocide" and "fetacide", a criminal offense.

My opinion, for those who don't know, is that abortion and the trivializing of the unborn erodes our humanity. As an atheist, I don't base this belief in religion but the unwavering stance that when we look at the unborn as mere "tissue" to be excised at will, we all lose some of our humanity.
avatar
GreatNPowerfulOz
Deactivated

Posts : 176
Join date : 2011-10-10
Age : 48
Location : Michigan, U.S.A.

Back to top Go down


Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:47 pm

Shirina wrote:
If you were TRULY more interested in population "throttling" then you'd encourage humanity to be more chaste in their behavior and responsible in their morality.
Nor can you legislate or enforce morality when it comes to having children because no matter how you punish the parents, the children are still with us.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you both and claim that you can legislate against people becoming parents without permission. All that needs to happen is for females at puberty to be made infertile with a Progestogen Implant, with hefty fines and compulsory abortions for those who fail to maintain their infertility. People can apply to the state to become parents.

It's not a perfect solution, but it would put a huge dent in the exponential population growth. It won't happen now, but I just may see it in my life time. All it takes is a significant move to a more evenly distributed global population and that is happening now. We are in the midst of a mass migration of peoples from Africa, South America and the Middle East to The West and The West is not equipped to handle it. War only increases population and mass migration... so it can't be long before we legislate against the freedom to choose parenthood.

True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:11 pm

Is a fertilized egg a "person" ...?

Err. No. Humpty Dumpty was an egg - but fictional.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Ivan on Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Extracts from an article by Laurie Penny for ‘The New Statesman’:-

"Mississippi has voted No to a proposal that would have granted blastocysts "personhood" rights - in effect outlawing not only abortion, but also many forms of birth control…….A campaign spearheaded by the group Personhood USA seeks to write into federal law the hypothesis that human life begins at the moment of conception, and that the rights of four-celled prehumans trump the rights of women.

What is stunning about the abortion debate in the US is not just the savagery of its disregard for the "personhood" of female citizens, but the cynical way in which elected representatives exploit what has become a national hysteria over abortion for political capital. In the US, a politician's stance on abortion rights is often a make-or-break matter with voters. It is no accident that so many of the states where Personhood USA expects to get its measures on to the ballot next year are the same key swing states - Colorado, Florida, Nevada and Ohio - that voted for Bush in 2004 but declared for Obama in 2008.

Attacking contraception, abortion and any other hard-won provisions to ensure female sexual equality has come to replace coherent economic and political discussion in the US…..Mitt Romney has proposed cutting off federal funds to Planned Parenthood, which provides birth control and other health services to millions of low-income women. Instead of offering any sort of vision for a future for the US, conservatives are reverting to attacking vulnerable women and minorities."


For the full article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/11/abortion-rights-women



avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Mother Nature knows best. Sturgeon roe contains millions of eggs, which humans happily consume under the name "Caviare". The eggs of many fish species are similarly devoured, all over the world. The eggs of Hens, Ducks and sundry other poultry are displayed on every supermarket shelf, but some Humans reserve it to themselves to make rules about the treatment of the same commodity when it is "us". Is that fair?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by snowyflake on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:33 pm

From a scientific or medical perspective, a fertilized egg is not a person. It's a bunch of cells, a parasite completely dependent on its host body (mom). So, no, it's not a person. When it is able to live outside its mother, breathe on its own then it is a person. Is a blastocyst a person? No. Are the few epithelial cells that you scrape off yourself every time you shower a person? No. Cells are not 'people'.
avatar
snowyflake

Posts : 1212
Join date : 2011-10-07
Age : 58
Location : England

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:12 pm

snowyflake wrote:From a scientific or medical perspective, a fertilized egg is not a person. It's a bunch of cells, a parasite completely dependent on its host body (mom). So, no, it's not a person. When it is able to live outside its mother, breathe on its own then it is a person. Is a blastocyst a person? No. Are the few epithelial cells that you scrape off yourself every time you shower a person? No. Cells are not 'people'.

I can not fathom how a person can equate a fetus with a parasite. It's not just incorrect, it shows a complete and utter lack of appreciation for the fact that it is the result of human reproduction and not a "cancer".

A parasite is an entity whose whole life is one of leaching from its host...the gestation of a human fetus is merely a stage in human development. Comparing a fetus to a parasite is moronic.
avatar
GreatNPowerfulOz
Deactivated

Posts : 176
Join date : 2011-10-10
Age : 48
Location : Michigan, U.S.A.

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:26 pm

Why, if my eyes don't deceive me, I think I just read a post by Snowyflake! *blinks a few times* Yep, it's her, all right. Hello, and welcome back!
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:42 pm

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:
snowyflake wrote:From a scientific or medical perspective, a fertilized egg is not a person. It's a bunch of cells, a parasite completely dependent on its host body (mom). So, no, it's not a person. When it is able to live outside its mother, breathe on its own then it is a person. Is a blastocyst a person? No. Are the few epithelial cells that you scrape off yourself every time you shower a person? No. Cells are not 'people'.

I can not fathom how a person can equate a fetus with a parasite. It's not just incorrect, it shows a complete and utter lack of appreciation for the fact that it is the result of human reproduction and not a "cancer".

A parasite is an entity whose whole life is one of leaching from its host...the gestation of a human fetus is merely a stage in human development. Comparing a fetus to a parasite is moronic.

The language of science is offensive when added to a discussion on Personhood. That doesn't make it incorrect. Just offensively correct.

I would add though, that whilst it is true that it is a parasite whilst gestating, it is a human parasite and if left to pursue life, it will be afforded personhood status in due time.
avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:23 am


The only cells/tissue that hold human potentiality are cells/tissue with human genes. It is my understanding that the genotype of a fertilized egg is exactly the same as the genotype of that same group of cells/tissue at death, whenever that occurs.

So when does that group of cells/tissue become a person? Is it, as Snowy suggest, at birth, presuming that to be the time when these groups of cells/tissue can sustain life unaided?? If so, does that mean that preemies are precluded from being persons, hooked up as preemies are to life support systems? Does that mean a group of cells/tissue that has live unaided outside the womb for, let’s say, forty years, loses claim to personhood if said forty year old, for whatever reason, suddenly needs life support to function?

Is cognizance a prerequisite to personhood? Does that mean the person who after a car accident lies in a coma with no brain activity loses claim to personhood? Does the person who awakens asking cognizant questions after weeks in a come with no brain activity re-claim personhood?

If one takes a presumption of non-personhood of any group of living cells/tissue that contains human DNA to a few logical conclusions, one is left with logical questions to which there are no logical answers. Some persons who claim personhood disdain Torah and Talmud, yet the contemplations of commencement of person hood contained in Talmud, based upon scholars’ contemplations upon Torah, go further towards untwisting this knot of personhood, when and why, than any attempt to do so based upon measures such as unaided viability and cognizance.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:26 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
[color=black]
The only cells/tissue that hold human potentiality are cells/tissue with human genes. It is my understanding that the genotype of a fertilized egg is exactly the same as the genotype of that same group of cells/tissue at death, whenever that occurs.

If one takes a presumption of non-personhood of any group of living cells/tissue that contains human DNA to a few logical conclusions, one is left with logical questions to which there are no logical answers.

It is better to assume that personhood is associated with self awareness even though that will include other species of animal. You see, if we speak only of humans as having personhood status, then straight away, those who are assumed human, but who are not human because they do not have the required number of chromosomes, loose their personhood status. Downs is not the only chromosomal anomaly to miss out on the status of human and personhood, according to the idea expressed above.

We all did know that humans can give birth to humanoids yes?

But humanoids can be self aware and so, if we assume personhood has more to do with self awareness, then other species will be included in that definition as well as those with Downs.

avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:03 pm

True Blue wrote:
It is better to assume that personhood is associated with self awareness even though that will include other species of animal.

But humanoids can be self aware and so, if we assume personhood has more to do with self awareness, then other species will be included in that definition as well as those with Downs.

Experiments with reflections strongly suggest that dolphins are self-aware. In fact, given the footage I’ve seen, I posit that dolphin self-awareness is the only conclusion a reasonable person can reach. That dolphins are not human is self-evident truth; thus…
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:34 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
True Blue wrote:
It is better to assume that personhood is associated with self awareness even though that will include other species of animal.

But humanoids can be self aware and so, if we assume personhood has more to do with self awareness, then other species will be included in that definition as well as those with Downs.

Experiments with reflections strongly suggest that dolphins are self-aware. In fact, given the footage I’ve seen, I posit that dolphin self-awareness is the only conclusion a reasonable person can reach. That dolphins are not human is self-evident truth; thus…

Mirror reflection experiments are not enough to determine if a species is self conscious... a baby under the age of 12 mths shows interest in its reflection but we know from other experiments that it is yet to be self aware.

I did set up a thread to discuss self consciousness... here... but it got trashed. Therefore, I'm not interested in going there... it is beyond the capacity of members on this forum to explore the complexities. Razz

Suffice to say... self awareness should be in the foundation definition of a philosophical understanding of personhood as applied to morality.
avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:39 pm

self awareness should be in the foundation definition of a philosophical understanding of personhood as applied to morality .

That's AI shot in the fundamentals then.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:43 pm

I did set up a thread to discuss self consciousness... here... but it got trashed.
Sorry about your thread, True Blue. Sad
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:11 am

True Blue wrote:
I did set up a thread to discuss self consciousness... here... but it got trashed. Therefore, I'm not interested in going there... it is beyond the capacity of members on this forum to explore the complexities.  Razz  

Yet you went there on this forum, on this thread.

.
True Blue wrote:
It is better to assume that personhood is associated with self awareness even though that will include other species of animal.

But humanoids can be self aware and so, if we assume personhood has more to do with self awareness, then other species will be included in that definition as well as those with Downs.

Please do not denigrate the capacities of others on this board. You're far too capable of deep thought for that, as demonstrated below.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:29 am

True Blue wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
True Blue wrote:
It is better to assume that personhood is associated with self awareness even though that will include other species of animal.

But humanoids can be self aware and so, if we assume personhood has more to do with self awareness, then other species will be included in that definition as well as those with Downs.
Experiments with reflections strongly suggest that dolphins are self-aware. In fact, given the footage I’ve seen, I posit that dolphin self-awareness is the only conclusion a reasonable person can reach. That dolphins are not human is self-evident truth; thus…
Mirror reflection experiments are not enough to determine if a species is self conscious... a baby under the age of 12 mths shows interest in its reflection but we know from other experiments that it is yet to be self aware.

That particular reflection experiment, when seen, is compelling, period. You may choose to remain unconvinced; I choose to follow the avoidance as presented.

Self awareness, in my informed opinion, does not differentiate humans from dolphins. ,. Accordingly, following this to its logical conclusion, dolphins are persons.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:39 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
True Blue wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
True Blue wrote:
It is better to assume that personhood is associated with self awareness even though that will include other species of animal.

But humanoids can be self aware and so, if we assume personhood has more to do with self awareness, then other species will be included in that definition as well as those with Downs.
Experiments with reflections strongly suggest that dolphins are self-aware. In fact, given the footage I’ve seen, I posit that dolphin self-awareness is the only conclusion a reasonable person can reach. That dolphins are not human is self-evident truth; thus…
Mirror reflection experiments are not enough to determine if a species is self conscious... a baby under the age of 12 mths shows interest in its reflection but we know from other experiments that it is yet to be self aware.

That particular reflection experiment, when seen, is compelling, period. You may choose to remain unconvinced; I choose to follow the avoidance as presented.

Self awareness, in my informed opinion, does not differentiate humans from dolphins. ,. Accordingly, following this to its logical conclusion, dolphins are persons.

Oh I agree that dolphins are persons... as are elephants, most whales and most primates to name a few... but I don't make that assessment based on one experiment with mirrors. Further, as persons, these other species fall into our moral realm as worthy of higher order considerations.

avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:48 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Please do not denigrate the capacities of others on this board. You're far too capable of deep thought for that, as demonstrated below.

Rock... I said nothing that was incorrect and picked on no one person in particular. I am within the rules therefore.

Otherwise... I've learnt very quickly that it is better not to be 'true blue'... that is... to be myself. Much better to keep that protective persona wrapped tight and secure and with that persona... deep thought has little currency.
avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:57 am

True Blue wrote:
Oh I agree that dolphins are persons... as are elephants, most whales and most primates to name a few

I don’t agree. Self awareness, or lack hereof (at whatever point a human lacks self awareness), does not make or break personhood.

Not does prodigious intelligence. A reliable test of personhood is the test Witchfinder inadvertently mentioned when he said that he, I, and everyone (meaning every human) are potential murderers. I’m not a murderer because I’ve hosen not b a murderer by having chosen not to murder. Orca leader, the awesomely intelligent orca who performs precise hydrodynamic calculations while skipping over the base ten Arabic numeral differential calculus steps, cannot be a potential murderer because she can neither choose to murder nor chose not to murder.

Why? Because orcas cannot murder. Only person can murder.

True Blue wrote:
Further, as persons, these other species fall into our moral realm as worthy of higher order considerations.

These animals are not persons.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:17 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
True Blue wrote:
Oh I agree that dolphins are persons... as are elephants, most whales and most primates to name a few

I don’t agree. Self awareness, or lack hereof (at whatever point a human lacks self awareness), does not make or break personhood.

Not does prodigious intelligence. A reliable test of personhood is the test Witchfinder inadvertently mentioned when he said that he, I, and everyone (meaning every human) are potential murderers. I’m not a murderer because I’ve hosen not b a murderer by having chosen not to murder. Orca leader, the awesomely intelligent orca who performs precise hydrodynamic calculations while skipping over the base ten Arabic numeral differential calculus steps, cannot be a potential murderer because she can neither choose to murder nor chose not to murder.

Why? Because orcas cannot murder. Only person can murder.

You are wrong. There are other species of primate and not merely humans that can murder. Another argument that has been put forward is that of only humans being able to ponder death as a measure of self awareness, however, elephants ponder death and have grave sites they visit to mourn.

All this suggests that there are levels of self awareness... and I have to ask if you really want to go down that slippery slope to stipulate what is to be included when referring to self awareness.

True Blue wrote:
Further, as persons, these other species fall into our moral realm as worthy of higher order considerations.

These animals are not persons.

Is it better to be more inclusive or less inclusive is the real question here. You want to exclude other species for reasons speciest. I want to include other species for reasons ecological and biological.

You haven't addressed how you get around the idea that humans can produce humanoids who, according to this idea that only humans can be persons, discounts the humanoids. They don't have human DNA. They are similar but not the same.
avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:14 am

True Blue wrote:
You are wrong. There are other species of primate and not merely humans that can murder.

Nope. There is nothing illegal about “ape-cide” amongst, for instance, chimpanzees. Male lions kill other males’ cubes (lion-cide)) for whatever reasons compel their actions; chimps kill other chimps (chimpanzee-cide) for whatever reasons compel their actions. Only humans possess the ability to choose to illegally kill, with malice aforethought, others of their own kind; accordingly, since murder is choosing to illegally kill, with malice aforethought, others of ones own kind.

No chimp justice systems, with peace officers, prosecutors, courts, and juries; no chimp jails prisons, and guards.

You are imputing human, i.e., personhood, perceptions unto beings with no ability to process those perceptions.

True Blue wrote:
All this suggests that there are levels of self awareness...

As I’ve stipulated, (a) a reasonable person must conclude that dolphins possess at least the ability to achieve self awareness, and (b) there is no reason to equate self awareness with personhood.

True Blue wrote:
and I have to ask if you really want to go down that slippery slope to stipulate what is to be included when referring to self awareness.

There is no “slippery slope”; “facts is facts”, and there ain’t nothin’ slippery about ‘em.

True Blue wrote:
Is it better to be more inclusive or less inclusive is the real question here.

Neither. It is best to refrain from such deciding that which is not one’s to decide, and to humbly place oneself in compliance to and in harmony with facts which pre-exist one’s personal cognizance.

Chimps are not persons. That fact pre-exists my cognizant existence.

True Blue wrote:
You want to exclude other species for reasons speciest.

You’re a bit off course as to what I want. Allow me to adjust your compass. I want to go back in a time machine, figure out a way to become 6’6” 235 lbs, with the wingspan of a hawk and huge hands that could suck up a basketball from cross court, and see if I “coulda’ been a contenda’.” I’m far to humble to “want to exclude” anything insofar as species and personhood are concerned.

True Blue wrote:
I want to include other species for reasons ecological and biological.

And you want to do so regardless of facts. “Damn the torpedoes facts, full speed ahead.”

True Blue wrote:
You haven't addressed how you get around the idea that humans can produce humanoids who, according to this idea that only humans can be persons, discounts the humanoids. They don't have human DNA. They are similar but not the same.

I don’t get around anything. Humans can pro-create humans, end of story insofar as life is concerned. Humans can produce cars, ships, plans, and all sorts of other stuff, none of which possesses life.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:03 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Nope. There is nothing illegal about “ape-cide” amongst, for instance, chimpanzees. Male lions kill other males’ cubes (lion-cide)) for whatever reasons compel their actions; chimps kill other chimps (chimpanzee-cide) for whatever reasons compel their actions. Only humans possess the ability to choose to illegally kill, with malice aforethought, others of their own kind; accordingly, since murder is choosing to illegally kill, with malice aforethought, others of ones own kind.

No chimp justice systems, with peace officers, prosecutors, courts, and juries; no chimp jails prisons, and guards.

You are imputing human, i.e., personhood, perceptions unto beings with no ability to process those perceptions.

So the profoundly disabled with no ability to process human perceptions and those humanoids such as Downs and Chimps who have similar DNA but not Human DNA... are non persons?
avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:18 am

True Blue wrote:
So the profoundly disabled with no ability to process human perceptions and those humanoids such as Downs and Chimps who have similar DNA but not Human DNA... are non persons?

I’m not sure if you’re referring to a trisomy condition in your use of “Downs”; if so, given the gene pool from which Downs Syndrome humans draw their genes, they are human.

Chimps are not human; chimps are chimps. In order to be a person, one must be human; accordingly, chimps are not persons, they are chimps.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by True Blue on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:07 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
True Blue wrote:
So the profoundly disabled with no ability to process human perceptions and those humanoids such as Downs and Chimps who have similar DNA but not Human DNA... are non persons?

I’m not sure if you’re referring to a trisomy condition in your use of “Downs”; if so, given the gene pool from which Downs Syndrome humans draw their genes, they are human.

How are they human? Humans have 46 chromosomes and they have more. They don't even look like a normal human... rather, they have a caste which distinctly look Downs. Their intellect is not the same as that of a human. Often they are born with webbed feet and hands and humans are not... and so it goes.

So, given that their DNA, their look and their abilities are not the same as that of humans... what makes them human?

Chimps are not human; chimps are chimps. In order to be a person, one must be human; accordingly, chimps are not persons, they are chimps.

In order to be a human you must have human DNA. Chimps do not have human DNA. Downs do not have human DNA. Both Downs and chimps have a lot of DNA in common with humans. Therefore Downs are humans and chimps are not????????

There is a problem in the logic here.
avatar
True Blue

Posts : 158
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : The most liveable city in the World

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:49 am

quote="True Blue"]
How are they human? Humans have 46 chromosomes and they have more. They don't even look like a normal human... rather, they have a caste which distinctly look Downs. Their intellect is not the same as that of a human. Often they are born with webbed feet and hands and humans are not... and so it goes.

So, given that their DNA, their look and their abilities are not the same as that of humans... what makes them human?
[/quote]

How? Because they’re created human, and draw from human gene pools. They don’t look like normal humans because they’re not normal humans; tripling of chromosome pairs tends to do that. Tripling also wreaks havoc on intelligence, and produces strange physical phenomena.

Nonetheless, genes drawn from human gen pools equals human.

quote="True Blue"]
In order to be a human you must have human DNA. Chimps do not have human DNA. Downs do not have human DNA. Both Downs and chimps have a lot of DNA in common with humans. Therefore Downs are humans and chimps are not????????
[/quote]

All trisomy fetuses, babies, children, and adults have human DNA, tripling not withstanding. Their chromosomes are the same, except one pair has one too many, which results in various negative consequences, including the absolutely devastating trisomy 18, far worse than Downs Syndrome. Chimps, conversely, having chimp DNA, cannot be and are not humans/

quote="True Blue"]
There is a problem in the logic here.
[/quote]

No problem whatsoever; humans are humans, chimps are chimps, and, since personhood requires human-hood, then chimps are not persons. Perfect logical progression.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by ROB on Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:51 am

True Blue wrote:
How are they human? Humans have 46 chromosomes and they have more. They don't even look like a normal human... rather, they have a caste which distinctly look Downs. Their intellect is not the same as that of a human. Often they are born with webbed feet and hands and humans are not... and so it goes.

So, given that their DNA, their look and their abilities are not the same as that of humans... what makes them human?

How? Because they’re created human, and draw from human gene pools. They don’t look like normal humans because they’re not normal humans; tripling of chromosome pairs tends to do that. Tripling also wreaks havoc on intelligence, and produces strange physical phenomena.

Nonetheless, genes drawn from human gen pools equals human.

True Blue wrote:
In order to be a human you must have human DNA. Chimps do not have human DNA. Downs do not have human DNA. Both Downs and chimps have a lot of DNA in common with humans. Therefore Downs are humans and chimps are not????????

All trisomy fetuses, babies, children, and adults have human DNA, tripling not withstanding. Their chromosomes are the same, except one pair has one too many, which results in various negative consequences, including the absolutely devastating trisomy 18, far worse than Downs Syndrome. Chimps, conversely, having chimp DNA, cannot be and are not humans/

True Blue wrote:
There is a problem in the logic here.

No problem whatsoever; humans are humans, chimps are chimps, and, since personhood requires human-hood, then chimps are not persons. Perfect logical progression.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:46 pm

So, given that their DNA, their look and their abilities are not the same as that of humans... what makes them human?
A person with Downs Syndrome was created by a human mother and a human father. Since there is no record of a human giving birth to cats, chimps, horses, dolphins, tigers, or anything other than another human, logic would dictate that any offspring of two human parents would naturally be human. I might even argue that the differences in the genetic structure of Downs babies are a result of evolution creating the "next level" of human beings - but I don't argue that since evolution, by and large, produces "better" humans. In other words, if the human genetic sequence began reacting to our increasingly sedentary lives by giving humans a more efficient metabolism which allowed us to burn off calories while doing very little exercise, I would classify that as an evolutionary step forward. Downs Syndrome does not grant the human species any advantages and, in fact, does just the opposite. Genetic aberrations in a human does not disqualify someone from being human.
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:18 pm

evolution, by and large, produces "better" humans.

Still a long way to go then ....
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:40 pm

Still a long way to go then ....
Heh, you'll get no argument from me.
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Hermes on Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:35 pm

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?  Mississippi is voting on just that...an initiative to define personhood for the unborn.

My only REAL concern is back street and DIY abortions....that may increase if such initiaves become legislated.

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:
Opinions?  If the premise that a fetus doesn't have "the right to life" because it's not legally a person, then wouldn't changing the legal definition of a person to include a fertilized egg be a legitimate argument.  After all, the legal right to an abortion in the U.S. is predicated upon the supposition that an unborn fetus is not a person...however, a huge contradiction exists because the law allows for the death of a fetus at the hands of a person OTHER than the mother as "fetal homocide" and "fetacide", a criminal offense.

I think if we are going to define what constitutes a 'person' we are going to have to do it the right way and by the right way I mean the scientific way.
Now, according to science, a 'person' is a living member of the homo sapien sapien species (possibly that may change to include other sentient animals one day), that pretty much sums up the scientific criteria, IMO naturally.
So..is a fertilized egg a member of the homo sapien sapien species?...well...after Mitosis it does pretty much satisfy the genetic criteria...it is also alive in a very real and biological sense...albeit in a very early stage of physical development.
So according to science, I feel, a fertilized human egg that has undergone Mitosis and formed a blastocyst or is developing into one, is a human being, or a person.
Necessarily due all the rights and protections enjoyed by all other persons.

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:
My opinion, for those who don't know, is that abortion and the trivializing of the unborn erodes our humanity.  As an atheist, I don't base this belief in religion but the unwavering stance that when we look at the unborn as mere "tissue" to be excised at will, we all lose some of our humanity.

I have to agree.
But I think technology may able to offer us a way out and prevent things like back street abortion from rearing their ugly heads.
In that unwanted early stage fetuses could be transferred to willing human* or perhaps synthetic/artificial surrogates.

*Women who cannot concieve but can carry for example would benefit.

But thats pipe dreams.

My main concern is with illegal abortion and the effect of unhygenic unsafe unethical amateur abortion.

I feel ruling out all abortion could be counterproductive, until we have perhaps the medical technology to deal with early fetuses humanely...IE allow them to exist and develop into someday you and me.
avatar
Hermes
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by dimsum on Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:40 am

"But I think technology may able to offer us a way out and prevent things like back street abortion from rearing their ugly heads.
In that unwanted early stage fetuses could be transferred to willing human* or perhaps synthetic/artificial surrogate"

We already have many many unwanted children that await adoption. I do not believe anyone will want to go down that road. Let us first take care of the children that are already here and are homeless, hungry, unwanted. Seems more attention is paid to the unborn than those children that are here now. Adopt. Please do not change the law. Women need a safe place to have a legal abortion for reasons that are none of our business.
avatar
dimsum

Posts : 46
Join date : 2011-11-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:41 am

How on earth were "the Authorities" ever allowed to assume responsibility for what we do with our own bodies?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:44 pm

The same people who fight so hard to make abortion illegal in America are the same people who whine incessantly about "welfare moms" who have children who can't afford to raise them properly. Now, am I the only one here who sees the self-defeatism of this ideology? Of course, plain and simple abstinence is always the magic answer; in other words, poor people shouldn't have sex. Conservatives have always been adept at finding non-solutions to our social issues. They are so caring and compassionate for the unborn, but the second that child pops out of the womb, it's on it's own. I have told them many times that if you want women to have every single baby they conceive, then you had best be prepared to open your wallets and help fund the programs that will keep those babies from starving. Put up or shut up - stop with the rhetoric. That's the point where many of them start calling me names.
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:03 pm

Sex is MUCH too good for poor people.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by dimsum on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Shirina I have always wondered why they care more for the unborn than those already here? And another thing that angers me is why does anyone believe they have the right to make a medical decision for someone else?

We have children going hungry and living on the streets and do NOT see all the furor to fix that. Nope they want to consider a egg as a person. We have so many children in foster care that would love to have a family and we worry about what a woman and her doctor are doing. Rubbish. if we can not feed the ones we have and can not get the same furor going for the hungry then something is very wrong here.
avatar
dimsum

Posts : 46
Join date : 2011-11-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:15 pm

oftenwrong wrote:How on earth were "the Authorities" ever allowed to assume responsibility for what we do with our own bodies?

Someone has to.

Everything detrimental you do to yourself effects other people, especially if you live as I do in nation with a national health service, do I enjoy paying taxes, for example, to treat morons & their victims who drink and drive?

Not particularly... Crying or Very sad


Last edited by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
avatar
Hermes
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:17 pm

dimsum wrote:
Women need a safe place to have a legal abortion for reasons that are none of our business.

Everything is 'our' business.

When you live in a society and enjoy all the benefits and protections of that society then you must comply with the wishes of society...or go to prison..etc..or of course change the law.
A woman who desires an abortion may well have justification, both for moral and/or humane reasons, it is elective abortion, chosen as a lifestyle choice, that those who believe human life is sacred find abhorrent.
Realistically as I have mentioned people will turn to other ways of aborting fetuses if the authority refuses to.
No one wants that hopefully...


Last edited by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
avatar
Hermes
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:20 pm

dimsum wrote:
We have children going hungry and living on the streets and do NOT see all the furor to fix that. Nope they want to consider a egg as a person. We have so many children in foster care that would love to have a family and we worry about what a woman and her doctor are doing. Rubbish. if we can not  feed the ones we have and can not get the same furor going for the hungry then something is very wrong here.

An illogical argument based on emotive & utilitarian appeal.

The fact that a living fertilized human ovum is scientifically speaking a 'human being' is not in any way countered by the fact that we do not properly look after our parentless children.
Surely we most remedy both problems...rather than elevate one above the other in order to discard it as a matter of importance.


Last edited by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Hermes
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Hermes on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Sex is MUCH too good for poor people.

An illogical statement for countless reasons.

The main one being that the main function of sex is reproduction...and your genes do not care how poor you are, by reproducing and keeping your offspring alive (or at least your siblings) until maturity you have succeeded as far your biologic evolutionary function is concerned, your capital or lack of it is completely immaterial.
avatar
Hermes
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:41 pm

Yes, ow. That's certainly told you.... Shocked
avatar
Phil Hornby
Blogger

Posts : 3942
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Drifting on Easy Street

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Shirina on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:16 pm

Hello, Hermes, and welcome to the forum.

Perhaps you missed my earlier argument to Oz in the first few pages of this thread so I'll reiterate. You may be aware that just recently we hit the 7 billion population mark. We hit the 6 billion mark in 1999. It only took us twelve years to put another billion people on the planet, and most of them are living in impoverished conditions we in the West could not even fathom. Compare that to the 127 years it took to go from one billion to two.

We can either work to control our own rampant population growth or we can wait until nature does it for us. We won't like the latter option as any ghost who died of the Black Death can attest to. Plagues tend to kill people in very slow and painful ways. Nature does have a way of knowing when enough is enough and taking decisive and unfeeling steps to curb it. Should we declare a fertilized egg the status of "Person" with all of the rights and responsibilities thereof, it would cause a population boom of epic proportions - and just like in other nations, most of those babies will be born into poverty. Competition for land, jobs, housing, and other resources will dramatically increase; the crushing weight of numbers will collapse both nationalized health care systems and insurance companies. Unemployment will skyrocket as will the directly related and associated crimes. Demand for basic products such as food and clothing will cause an all too predictable price increase that will only exacerbate the issue of poverty.

As more people fall into or are born into poverty and as clean water, nutritious food, adequate housing, and medical care become ever more difficult to obtain, the timer on the bomb will begin ticking. When the timer hits zero (at nature's choosing), the next pandemic will erupt during a time when our infrastructure is incapable of dealing with it. The plague will spread to unmanageable levels even before it is detected since the first victims will be too poor to afford to see a doctor. And by then, it will be too late.

We're already slowly marching toward that fate regardless, but if abstinence or a handful of contraceptive devices are all that's left, we would be pushing the doomsday clock that much closer to the midnight hour.
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is a fertilized egg a "person"...?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum