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Is the United Kingdom doomed?

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Majority back Scottish independence

Post by Ivan on Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:11 pm

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Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by witchfinder on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:32 pm

Reading various articles this morning, it is becoming clear that Scottish seperation from the rest of the UK would not be as easy as Alex Salmon face thinks.

The Scottish CBI have repeated a list of very relevant questions which the SNP seem reluctant to answer, mainy what currency would an independent Scotland use, bearing in mind that for the time been the Euro is out of the question.

It seems that an independent Scotland would continue to use the UK pound sterling, this is the answer so far given by the SNP leadership, which basicly means that Scotland would not be independent from an economic perspective.

IF Scotland did seperate from the rest of the UK, and IF they continued using the UK pound, then major economic decisions governing Scotland would continue to be made by the UK treasurey and by the Bank of England in London, there would be strings attached to using the pound, and a new Scottish government would have to stay within UK wide tax and spending plans.

Well Mr Salmond, nothing is as straight forward as you might think

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by astra on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:38 pm

With Scottish Clearing Banks printing their own money, it would not matter if they called it the pound or the groat!

Before the €, how many countries in Europe used the Franc as currency, how many percieved problems were witnessed?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by witchfinder on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:15 pm

Its not that simple astra the Scottish government cannot create a seperate or new currency overnight, it would be tagged or pinned to the true or real economy of Scotland, the pound as it is now belongs to the whole of the UK and is governed by the UK treasurey.

IF there were to be a new currency overnight ( though in reality this is no possible ), then with immediate effect it would drift in value away from the UK pound, and as the rest of the UK ( England - Wales - Ulster ) would remain Scotlands biggest trading partner by far, the situation would become extremely complicated, this is what Scottish CBI leaders are deeply worried about.

A new Scottish currency could very easily make Scottish products more expensive to buy, not only in what remains of the UK, but elsewhere too.

Scottish seperation could very easily cripple the Scottish economy
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by astra on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:20 pm

I remember in 1972, in germany, when cashing in for Marks, that I got 19/6d for my Scottish pound as compared to the English Pound when changing currencies.


No-one shouted then!
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:09 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Anyone who has ever had even the slightest contact with the Trade Union Movement knows that the proportion of Scots who are Officials heavily outweighs the number of Union members who are Scots. Socialists throughout the UK are grateful for their efforts to gain better working conditions from Employers.

Scotland is virtually a Tory-free zone, but the former dominance of the Labour Party there is steadily eroded by the Nationalist movement, and crunch time will be when Separation is put to the vote.

Yes we are a Tory free zone here in Scotland but once again Cameron is sticking his big beak in thus inflaming the Scottish voter he tries to interfear with when or what question should be asked we will be Independent because Cameron to the Scots is like a "Red Rag to a Bull".
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:51 pm

"Unity" and "Independence" are words which have different meanings to different people, but no Political Leader will happily yield to breakaway proposals.

Most modern Nations have their origin in an ancient collection of kingdoms and fiefdoms that have slowly formed a cohesive unit for mutual benefit, and there are few advocates for a return to The Italian Kingdoms, the German Dukedoms, Spanish Provinces or maps of conquest.

Alex is twisting David's tail for devilment, because of the type of man each is. There's a bit more rhetoric to be exchanged before it ends in arm-wrestling.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by keenobserver1 on Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:46 pm

Redflag wrote:

Yes we are a Tory free zone here in Scotland but once again Cameron is sticking his big beak in thus inflaming the Scottish voter he tries to interfear with when or what question should be asked we will be Independent because Cameron to the Scots is like a "Red Rag to a Bull".

Like hell we will be independant!
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:30 pm

It's not particularly bold of Politicians to propose a £16billion project that won't start before the election following the next election.

The greater mystery is why Cameron has chosen this moment in time to challenge Alex Salmond's declared intention of holding a referendum on Scottish independence. Which has been known about for quite a long time.

Is there something else that our attention is being diverted away from?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:36 pm

Meanwhile, in Scotland...

Roll up, roll up

For Dirk Head...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.](renews.biz)


versus Dickhead...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.](david-cameron.jpg)


No contest....! Very Happy
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:10 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:Meanwhile, in Scotland...

Roll up, roll up

For Dirk Head...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.](renews.biz)


versus Dickhead...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.](david-cameron.jpg)


No contest....! Very Happy

Don't be too sure about that I hate Cameron with a vengeance one thing he is not and that is a fool and I think Salmond is messing with some one that is slyer than him so all i will say is watch this space.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by keenobserver1 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:38 pm

Salmond is in for a shock when he discovers that both of the big two will be against any referendum, which will cause it to be defeated.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:26 pm

keenobserver1 wrote:Salmond is in for a shock when he discovers that both of the big two will be against any referendum, which will cause it to be defeated.

What big two he has an overall control in the Scottish Parliament, and not if he gets Cameron to stick his nose in because Salmond knows that Scotland hates the Tories so if we see that he is sticking his Tory nose in what we think is our business he will cause the Scottish voters to vote yes in the referendum.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by sickchip on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:33 am

oftenwrong wrote:Looks like WE are getting a new trainset to play with.

All that money for the convenience of a very small percentage of the population!

Did none of the prats making the decision to spend our money this way not stop and think how much more useful it would be to invest this money into building much needed new, affordable, social housing?

I guess actually doing something that serves ordinary members of the electorate is not what our leaders are about! Still as long as their exec pals will be a little more comfy on their nice new choo choo train......

Is this that brilliant system capitalism in action again? Wow! Look how wonderfully our capitalist system works - the government take our taxes and subsidise the profits of private companies. Wow yeah! Isn't capitalism just the greatest?

This is nearly as fine an example of modern capitalism as when the governments banker friends made a booboo but thanks to the fact they were quick thinking, and such experts in the field of finance, they realised they could take all our taxes and everything would be dandy again......for them! Wow isn't modern capitalism cool!

What a brilliant system!


Last edited by sickchip on Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by sickchip on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:48 am

Can we move the border to make the north from yorkshire and lancashire upwards part of Scotland?

Why should the north of England be governed by (divorced from reality) Bullingdon boys elected by southern England? Civil war anybody?

It shouldn't be a referendum for Scotland.
Northern Britain should seek independence from southern britain.

If Scotland become independent - we will have a Tory government for decades in England. That's something to look forward to, eh?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:45 pm

Clearly the Prime Minister needs to marshall Tory supporters in Scotland.

Both of them, if necessary.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by astra on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:54 pm

Can we move the border to make the north from yorkshire and lancashire upwards part of Scotland
?


He He

Just south of Penrith, is Brougham Castle on the A66. A plaque on the wall states that in the 13 Century, the wall marked the border between England and Scotland, from Workington to Hartlepool. This about the time Alexander the Third of Scotland fell over Coldingham Cliffs. The Throne of Scotland going to his Granddaughter Margaret 'the Maid of Norway'

Just today on BBC North News, Berwick residents want to be part of Scotland - not England, but alas, that's not as far south as Preston etc.

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:15 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Clearly the Prime Minister needs to marshall Tory supporters in Scotland.

Both of them, if necessary.

That figure is rather high the Tories only have ONE seat in the Scottish Parliament the rest come from the what is called in Scotland the list.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:53 pm

Shocked
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by jackthelad on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:20 pm

sickchip wrote:Can we move the border to make the north from yorkshire and lancashire upwards part of Scotland?

Have you never heard of the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire.

























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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by jackthelad on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:25 pm

astra wrote:
Can we move the border to make the north from yorkshire and lancashire upwards part of Scotland
?




Just south of Penrith, is Brougham Castle on the A66. A plaque on the wall states that in the 13 Century, the wall marked the border between England and Scotland, from Workington to Hartlepool. This about the time Alexander the Third of Scotland fell over Coldingham Cliffs.


Rumour has it that he didn't fall, but was pushed.





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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:31 pm

astra wrote:Red Flag, Hello and welcome.
I am also a Scot, and have been watching developments and happenings since I "emigrated" to Tyne and Wear in 1980!! Smile


I did not, and cannot say that Salmond is right about anything! My sister lives up near Wick and the things they have promised, started talks then renegged on is unbelievable. (I firmly believe he bathes in the same luke-warm snake oil as Lord Mandelperson!!!)

What do you think of recent developments between Westminster and Holyrood and do you have any thoughts on what the outcome will be?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by astra on Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:42 pm

When it comes to edicts from London, Scots have always been a thrawn (stubborn, contramacious) bunch!!

A Quote from the House today says it all!!


There are more pandas in Edinburgh Zoo than Scottish constituancy MPs in Westminster!
Why should they inflict their bile on Scotland when it is the Tories who complain most about 'The West Lothian Question'

Usual Bories trying to have it both ways.

The result of a referendum? We'll see, but I would not be surprised if independence were carried! Even most of the English "settlers" in my sister's area are quite sick of the negative interference from London, EU, World and Andromeda! so I would expect independence as a spite to london if nothing else.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:03 pm

astra wrote:When it comes to edicts from London, Scots have always been a thrawn (stubborn, contramacious) bunch!!

A Quote from the House today says it all!!


There are more pandas in Edinburgh Zoo than Scottish constituancy MPs in Westminster!
Why should they inflict their bile on Scotland when it is the Tories who complain most about 'The West Lothian Question'

Usual Bories trying to have it both ways.

The result of a referendum? We'll see, but I would not be surprised if independence were carried! Even most of the English "settlers" in my sister's area are quite sick of the negative interference from London, EU, World and Andromeda! so I would expect independence as a spite to london if nothing else.

It's not gonna happen.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:22 pm

Yes, I'm inclined to the view that all this is Uncle Alex's spiffing wheeze to screw some more money out of Westminster while there's only a pretty face Wally in charge there.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Yes, I'm inclined to the view that all this is Uncle Alex's spiffing wheeze to screw some more money out of Westminster while there's only a pretty face Wally in charge there.

Now we are getting somewhere.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:46 pm

astra wrote:When it comes to edicts from London, Scots have always been a thrawn (stubborn, contramacious) bunch!!

A Quote from the House today says it all!!


There are more pandas in Edinburgh Zoo than Scottish constituancy MPs in Westminster!
Why should they inflict their bile on Scotland when it is the Tories who complain most about 'The West Lothian Question'

Usual Bories trying to have it both ways.

The result of a referendum? We'll see, but I would not be surprised if independence were carried! Even most of the English "settlers" in my sister's area are quite sick of the negative interference from London, EU, World and Andromeda! so I would expect independence as a spite to london if nothing else.

I heard that quote also rather good and sums the Tories in Holyrood it is also the same for the Lib/Dems, Two pandas in Edinborough and two pandas in Holyrood
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:17 pm

astra wrote:When it comes to edicts from London, Scots have always been a thrawn (stubborn, contramacious) bunch!!

A Quote from the House today says it all!!


There are more pandas in Edinburgh Zoo than Scottish constituancy MPs in Westminster!
Why should they inflict their bile on Scotland when it is the Tories who complain most about 'The West Lothian Question'

Usual Bories trying to have it both ways.

The result of a referendum? We'll see, but I would not be surprised if independence were carried! Even most of the English "settlers" in my sister's area are quite sick of the negative interference from London, EU, World and Andromeda! so I would expect independence as a spite to london if nothing else.

Hi astra what do you make of recent events between Salmond and Cameron? also Salmond has made me laugh he wants to take us out of the clutches of Westminster but wants to marches strait into the the clutches of the EU and the Euro for our currency where is that mans sense or maybe he thinks our heads buttons up the back.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by astra on Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:29 pm

Looks like the European Dream is at last going to be a nightmare!


Salmond is an accountant and city slicker, well aware of the machinations of the banking system, and may well have deduced for himself or been forewarned about todays downgrading od France.
Greece may not get the financing it needs to stay in the € so, intresting times ahead.
Ships? I see no ships! What effin iceberg? to quote a few slip ups of epic proportions

Funny how only yesterday, the meetings with Cameroon were being mooted!
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:23 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Looks like WE are getting a new trainset to play with.

One of the Tory MPs has a new train set and now Boris wants an air port talk about outdoing one another what next, we might begetting a SHIP YARD if one of them wants to play with Boats?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:48 pm

Redflag wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:Looks like WE are getting a new trainset to play with.

One of the Tory MPs has a new train set and now Boris wants an air port talk about outdoing one another what next, we might begetting a SHIP YARD if one of them wants to play with Boats?

Now that actually wouldn't be a bad thing, if the boat that has been spoken about was built on the Clyde it would be an £80m investment for the local economy. Perhaps some support for those trying to raise the funds from the wealthy folks for the project would be in order.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:00 pm

" raise the funds from the wealthy folks for the project ...."

Why would the Russians be interested in building a Royal Yacht?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by keenobserver1 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:39 pm

oftenwrong wrote:" raise the funds from the wealthy folks for the project ...."

Why would the Russians be interested in building a Royal Yacht?

There are still some wealthy folks throughout the commonwealth who would probably contribute if prompted.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:56 pm

They've had plenty of time to think about it.

"Following Labour's victory on 1 May 1997 it was announced that the vessel would be retired and no replacement would be built. The Conservative government argued that the cost of the vessel was justified by its role in foreign policy and promoting British interests abroad, particularly through conferences held by British Invisibles. When cancelling the replacement of the vessel, the new Labour government argued that the expenditure could not be justified given the other pressures on the defence budget (from which it would be funded and maintained). Proposals for the construction of a new royal yacht, perhaps financed through a loan or by the Sovereign's own funds, have since made little headway.

Britannia was decommissioned on 11 December 1997.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Penderyn on Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:21 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"Most modern Nations have their origin in an ancient collection of kingdoms and fiefdoms that have slowly formed a cohesive unit for mutual benefit, and there are few advocates for a return to The Italian Kingdoms, the German Dukedoms, Spanish Provinces or maps of conquest.

.

Especially relevant are the Austro-Hungarian, Turkish and Russian Empires. Who would break up those sacred nations?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:02 pm

Turkey emerged from the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Penderyn on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:05 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Turkey emerged from the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire.

A very England of Islam! Still bullying away quite actively though, isn't it?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:49 pm

On August the 6th 1962 Jamaica became an independent nation, in other words it ceased been a colony of the United Kingdom and instead began governing itself.

The talk about Scotland becoming independent is something of a misconception, how can you become independent from yourself. ?

The British Parliament in Westminster is the main constitutional legislature of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it has equal and fair representation from all 4 constituent parts of the United Kingdom, and all parts of the United Kingdom are equal.

Scotland is not ruled by, or ruled from the United Kingdom, Scotland IS the United Kingdom, and so instead of talking about independence, what is realy meant is "seperation".

Unlike Jamaica, Scotland is not a colony yearning for freedom from some colonial power accross the seas, instead its a nation that united its Crown and its Parliament with its neighbour hundreds of years ago to form one United Kingdom.

The nationalists have no vision, no understanding, they do not want to see beyond the horizon, infact they are spiteful and many are hatefull, Scotland has its own legislature which decides on Scottish affairs, it always has had its own legal and education systems, but it is also part of the bigger picture, a part of a United Kingdom.

Politicians who prey on voters via jingoism, patriotic rhetoric which invokes hatred and division between two peoples, the use of bloody historical conflict to further a cause between two neighbouring nations, are helping to promote hatred, racism bigotry.

There is a very real danger that as time goes on, this could all turn very nasty, I saw a post today on Facebook which calls for the new High Speed Rail to link Glasgow to London, one poster suggested that we wait for the outcome of the 2014 referendum, and should Scotland vote for independence then not one penny should ever be invested in improving either communications or transport links between England and Scotland ever again.

Many people in England who are unionists would not take kindly to the destruction of the UK, some are saying that the 800,000 Scotish born people working and living in England should go away - or words to that effect.







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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:04 pm

Alex Salmond can see some advantage in rattling Westminster's cage. There are political and practical gains to be made, if he is lucky.

From the standpoint of the other components of the UK, it's probably safe to assume that nothing fundamental is actually going to change in the foreseeable future.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:30 am

Scotland already ahs more autonomy than England, they already decide how they spend the taxpayers money. England meanwhile is governed by a UK parliament. Surely the real question is when will English mp's be allowed to vote on English matters without input from those mp's north of the Border?

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:05 am

This is why I was in favour of a federal United Kingdom, indeed I still am, and the answer is not an English Parliament, the answer is for each region of England to have its own regional legislature.

I cannot for one moment see any practical benefits from having an English Parliament, totaly dominated by the South East because thats where the bulk of the population is, what has North Yorkshire got in common with Gravesend or the Isle of Wight.



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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:22 am

astra wrote:To my mind, this could have been good news

For years, while this had been mooted, and Robin Day sarcasticly goaded Margo Mac Donald - SNPs FIRST ever MP, in the 1970s, the UK government has had one half of an eye on the Scottish ball. Tory Bliar tried, and took most of the steam out of salmond's tuba! But, since Brown (with his girlfriend "Prudence") all past machinations have gone awry. Cameroon is doing nothing on this front. (We have seen that Cameron treats "His Highlanders" with the same contempt that Pitt did!

Scotland could make a go of things, but I do not - cannot believe that Alec Salmond is the man to lead the country in any mean or manner.

(For a start - name a living Scottish Diplomat!
Second - name a current Scottish 'Dignatory' who could fall into one of the ambassador's roles abroad - Rab C. Nesbitt?

I agree with all you have said up too a point astra, the reason he is leaving it until 2014 he is hoping that by then Scotland will be sick too the back teeth with Scam...er..on and his cuts because there is more too come that he will get the majority of yes votes, and if Scam...er...on interferes that will DEFINATELY cause a yes vote and of course Scam...er...on knows this he is not stupid he knows Scotland hates him and his party due too what Maggie did up here in the 1980s, is there a way round this astra?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

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