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Is the United Kingdom doomed?

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Majority back Scottish independence

Post by Ivan on Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:11 pm

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Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by stuart torr on Sun May 24, 2015 6:00 pm

So Penderyn if there were a coalition? who would the white settlers vote for if it was not for smith?

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Penderyn on Mon May 25, 2015 12:23 pm

stuart torr wrote:So Penderyn if there were a coalition? who would the white settlers vote for if it was not for smith?

They cannot conceive of such a possibility. Smith lives!
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by stuart torr on Mon May 25, 2015 2:14 pm

Smith or nobody then. Laughing Laughing
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon May 25, 2015 5:36 pm

There may be pointers to the future of the United Kingdom in today's results from Spain, where "autonomous regions" have local government under a Central administration in Madrid.

Protesting vigorously against "austerity", leftwing parties have made serious inroads against the reigning Popular Party.

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Tue May 26, 2015 12:06 pm

But England were the Idiots in this OW because they voted in a party that is for Austerity for the few but not for MPs who have now agreed (Davy boy) to accept the 11% pay rise what a difference a general election makes before the Tories were against an increase now there all for it. If Nurses doctors or Teachers were to ask for a 11% pay rise I know the reply they would get "EFF OFF".
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by stuart torr on Tue May 26, 2015 12:27 pm

If the nurses doctors teachers firemen asked for that kind of pay rise at any time under this present government Redflag,be it just before an election or a year after, the answer would have been the same would it not?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 26, 2015 1:00 pm

Standard Boss thinking: "Don't do as I do, do as I say!"

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by stuart torr on Tue May 26, 2015 1:46 pm

Precisely OW, especially on their salaries.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:57 pm

Britain’s already fragile union is at risk - not from Scotland but its own government

Extracts from an article by Gordon Brown:-

"If the United Kingdom collapses, it will not be because a majority of Scots are hell-bent on leaving but because the UK government is giving up on saving it. No union can survive without unionists and, after an election in which, to head off UKIP, the Conservative and Unionist Party presented itself as the English Nationalist Party, it is clear that the union is on life support.

When Scotland’s future was at stake in the referendum, Scots had to choose between Scottish nationalism and support for the union – and many patriotic Scots like me chose to defend the union. But when it has come to a choice between English nationalism and defending the union, the Conservatives are choosing English nationalism.

Sadly, this tactic – to divide and rule and put party before country rather than to unite – is one that the Conservatives can return to again and again. It reveals a bigger truth: that while Scotland has not yet written off Britain, the Conservatives are starting to write off Scotland. And as the nationalists inevitably try to claim a divergence of opinion between Scotland and England on welfare cuts and austerity, over our future in Europe and the replacement of the Human Rights Act, more and more people will be tempted to conclude that the union has become unworkable
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:17 pm

I think that's what they call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

North Sea Oil no longer produces bounty for the Westminster Treasury, so the Jocks can be set adrift without danger to the Tory Party.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:15 pm

But it will not look good on his CV or in the History books as the PM that lost part of the UK OW, I just hope that the Scots wake up to the real policies of the SNP, because they are more Tory than the Tories only thing is the SNP have pulled the wool over the eyes of the Scots that there more socialist than the Labour party lol! lol!
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:17 pm

The government's plans for English votes for English laws get worse the more you look at them

Extracts from an article by Ian Lucas MP:-

"The keystone of a democratic nation’s legislature is that its elected representatives have an equal voice. On Thursday 2 July 2015 that principle was set aside. The government’s proposals to give additional rights to MPs from England abrogates that principle and, as a consequence, the future of the UK is threatened.

The creation of a separate English Grand Committee with exclusive, real powers also introduces English devolution by the back door. It means that the Tories will, for laws deemed English, increase their majority from 12 to 105. When Labour legislated to introduce devolution, it introduced the Additional Member System in the devolved legislatures to mitigate the impact of its then overwhelming majority. The Tories have no such qualms, retaining the FPTP voting system to preserve their majority in the new English Grand Committee. And they will do so without legislation, simply by amending Standing Orders of the House of Commons; the House of Lords will not consider the change.

If England would prefer to have a devolved legislature, it is entirely open to it to create one if it so wishes. It should be done using the law of the land to effect constitutional change. It is likely that MPs from outside England will be unable to be ministers on those bills that are deemed to be England only as they will be excluded from relevant committees. The question arises whether it will be possible to have a PM from outside England, as he will be unable to participate fully in England only legislation
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by boatlady on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:12 am

I don't see how we're ever going to get rid of the Tories
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:28 pm

With any luck, they'll have torn themselves apart over "Europe" before the next general election. If not, they will be measuring themselves up for jackboots.

Anyone for tennis?
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:50 pm

Thirty- fifteen.

That's probably when they will next expect to lose an election... Shocked
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:09 pm

Do you really think the Tory gov't will be in power for that length of time PH ? With the way they are changing the laws of this land ( EVEL & Electoral reform) through these changes it is quite possible the Tories are trying to stay in power for as long as they can.

What I want to know is hoiw many Tory LIES are the people of the UK going to keep on swallowing, I can see the total spilt up of the UK first it will be Scotland then Wales then Northern Ireland and then the Tory party will have "EFF ALL" to govern over will it take this to get the UK to grow a backbone
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:30 pm

Redflag - I think the most cursory of scans of my posts suggests that I should not be taken too seriously - on any subject... Shocked
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:58 pm

English votes for English laws: a Tory power grab dressed up in constitutional jargon

Extracts from an article by Owen Smith MP:-

"Faced with the prospect of navigating five stormy years with a majority of just 12, the Tories are trying to turn the legitimate debate about devolution for England into a wholly illegitimate extension of their majority to 105. It is playing with fire on the constitution and it is to the discredit of the Conservatives that they should be prepared to jeopardise the security of the Union and diminish the standing of Great Britain in the world.

Masked by the reasonable rhetoric about answering the West Lothian question and correcting the imbalance created by devolution to Scotland and Wales, is the creation, almost overnight, of an English Parliament. Not a Parliament that, like those in Cardiff and Edinburgh, would sit apart from Westminster, decentralising power, but rather one that would sit even closer to the centre: a Parliament within Parliament.

Instead of being worked through and properly analysed either as a Bill, or through the Constitutional Convention that we need to sort out our devolution disorder, this is being rammed through in a dodgy change to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. A bit like Sepp Blatter changing the offside rule after a night out in Qatar.

This goes far further than any constitutional experts have suggested in giving the English MPs the additional power of veto, creating two classes of MPs. That is what turns this from being a reasonable change to being a land-grab for a bigger majority. It’s what guarantees that this change will lead, at some point, to a constitutional crisis. And that is principally why it must be stopped
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:47 pm

Such a pity that Britain does not have a written Constitution.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:42 am

Desperate stuff. This nonsense has been released by the Scottish Tories........  What a Face

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:51 am

Thank you Ivan it gladdens my heart to see the people of Scotland are waking up to the truth about the SNP, I knew through time there true colous whould shine through and open the eyes of the Scots. Just let us hope it shows up in the voting here in Scotland in May 2016, I have always thought you could not get a fag paper between the SNP & the Tories and I have many theories about them and the Tories.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:00 pm

From various vox-pop items in the national press, it appears that Scottish Nationalists are likely to eject Corbyn because of his Unionist leaning.

If that's true it doesn't hold out much of a future for the Labour Party north of the border.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Redflag on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:15 pm

If that is true OW, I am certain Scots will not enjoy what the SNP have in store for them, because the SNP will blame Westminister for the Austerity when in reality its the SNP who should bare the blame.

The SNP are trying to drive the Scots to start calling for another referendum for Independence because that is what THEY want not what is best for Scotland and its people.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:05 am

Two Unions or no Union?

From an article by former UK ambassador David Hannay:-

"The negative consequences of leaving the EU are being hotly debated, but less attention has so far been given to the negative consequences of such a decision on that other Union which joins together the peoples of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

On the assumption that Scotland votes to remain in the EU — and with every party in Scotland except UKIP campaigning to remain, that must look highly probable – an overall UK vote to leave would pose a major constitutional contradiction. Would this trigger a demand for a second referendum on Scottish independence? The proposition would be that Scotland should remain in the EU, rather than be forced to leave against its democratically expressed will.

The case of Wales is less obvious given that the support there for independence is so much lower. But the assumption that there would be no negative consequences for the unity of the UK if a Welsh vote to remain was overridden would seem a little rash.      

If a UK vote to leave were implemented by any trading arrangement other than the UK joining the EEA and thus retaining its access to the single market, then there would need once again to be customs controls on the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. And, if Britain wanted to impose effective restrictions on the free movement of EU citizens, the Common Travel Area between Britain and Ireland would be unsustainable. Moreover, much of the underpinning of co-operation on justice and home affairs which has enabled that co-operation to be de-politicised by processes like the European Arrest Warrant would be at risk.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:43 am

Might those thousands of Scots who flocked to join the SNP only AFTER the independence referendum, reasonably be expected to withdraw that support from a Party showing itself willing to reject the nett contribution still being made thus far by English taxpayers to the Scottish economy?

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The SNP have made the UK a state where only one party will ever govern

Post by sickchip on Fri May 06, 2016 7:08 pm

Who would've ever imagined it? That Scottish folk are responsible for condemning the UK to a Tory government forever.

The SNP have made the UK a state where only one party will ever govern. They must be so pleased with themselves.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Fri May 06, 2016 8:03 pm

sickchip. I think you should elucidate. For what exactly are you blaming the SNP, maximising its support?

Labour would have won the 1997, 2001 and 2005 elections even if Scotland hadn’t been part of the UK, and it would have won the first two and been the largest party in 2005 if Scotland had still been with us. Now the Blairites will claim that was all down to St Tony, but the point is that the statistics prove that Labour can win a general election without Scotland, just as the Tories have done on a number of occasions.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by sickchip on Sat May 07, 2016 10:52 am

Scotland is now a one party state.....by choice. It is un-democratic. They are to all intents and purposes independent from the rest of the UK - it is ridiculous that votes for SNP have any bearing on the UK. The SNP is only concerned with Scotland, so why should they partake in UK elections/influence UK politics/law - they are having their cake and eating it? Scotland should not be given another vote on independence...the rest of the UK should force it on them and let them get on with themselves and their one political party. Labour should withdraw entirely from Scotland, and let them get on with it.
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What happened in Scotland?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat May 07, 2016 3:11 pm

In my view the SNP took the vote because Scotland's Labour voters wanted to tell the English Tory Parliament that "we have had enough of you", "we want out from under the harsh banner of Thatcherism"...

Frankly if I were fortunate to be able to be out on the streets of Scotland today, I would have talked to people in passing and ask them why they voted SNP ?

I bet im right!

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Penderyn on Sat May 07, 2016 6:36 pm

Unless Scotland becomes independent, none of the SNP MPs are going to disappear or turn into tories. so they are not condemning the UK to anything other than tolerance of difference. The voting system up there was carefully designed to prevent a majority government in Scotland, so their success demonstrates how fed up the people got with tories and blairies. I wish we showed as much sense here - they get whatever they want, whereas we get kicked for being grovelling dogs!
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by sickchip on Sat May 07, 2016 11:52 pm

Scotland is now a single party dictatorship.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Sun May 08, 2016 10:57 am

I’ve always understood “a single party dictatorship” to be a political system where voters aren’t given a choice, as in China or North Korea. Scottish voters do have a choice, but in the past decade they've kept giving the SNP a mandate. However, unlike in a dictatorship, the Scots do have a right to change their minds when they next go the polls.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Penderyn on Sun May 08, 2016 11:37 am

Yes, and the Scots have a great deal more choice than most people in the rest of Britain get, which is why far more vote.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun May 08, 2016 5:43 pm

Such ingratitude from those Scots, who no longer vote for Labour despite everything that the Blair administration did for them.

This may have been a contributory factor....

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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun May 08, 2016 9:20 pm

Good old Tony is history now - forget him!

The constant references to Blairites and the blaming of him and them for all Labour's current woes is pointless. It almost makes one think that there is some diversion needed from the real reasons for why Labour currently isn't working ( to coin a phrase)... Smile
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Penderyn on Mon May 09, 2016 12:20 pm

No - because the current gang of MPs are almost entirely Blairite.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Ivan on Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:51 am

Brexit has disfigured the tolerant Britain I’ve known

Extracts from an article by Eimear McBride:-

The EU, whatever its faults and burdensome bureaucracy, represents a new way for nations to function together. It was forged to overcome the rank, jingoist nationalism that wreaked such havoc across the continent and the world in the 20th century, subjecting its population to previously unimaginable sufferings. Its purpose was to lead us to a place where such horrors would become unimaginable once more.

Why has the British population, which shows such reverence for the memory of those who sacrificed their lives in the world wars, turned its back on a union founded to ensure that the peace those deaths paid for be guarded and strengthened for successive generations?

I come from a country where the ravages of historical division, and the sectarian violence that inevitably follows, are not such a distant memory. Irish, British and Northern Irish politicians have worked tirelessly for peace, for years, in order to provide Northern Ireland’s wounded communities with a chance to move beyond the hurt of their divided histories. Those communities themselves have sacrificed much so their future generations may be free of the poisonous cycle of violence and terror. That this delicate, hard-won and harder-maintained web of hope has been so carelessly, thoughtlessly jeopardised by a handful of bloviating careerists unashamed to fan fear and division in British society in order to achieve their personal ambitions is a disgrace they will forever bear.


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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by sickchip on Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:58 pm

Ivan,

I was just about to post the same article. Thanks for posting it.....it's very good.

I don't know about you, or other posters here, but this week I've encountered a fair number of people who regret voting for Brexit, and are starting to realise, and worry about, the implications.
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:24 pm

Good article. There will be a many more who will wake up one morning to the reality of what they have done when their grocery bill rises by a substantial percentage. When employment rises and the tax revenues from those workers turns to paying Welfare to them from a reduced National income. When the NHS finally runs out of money, and we can't afford a defence budget to support the new canoes we have just bought to defend our coasts.

Or am I being too... erm ...optimistic. Crying or Very sad
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:56 pm

'Something Will Turn Up'

Wilkins Micawber in David Copperfield


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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:37 pm

" There will be a many more who will wake up one morning to the reality..."

I believe that the type of person who voted to rid ourselves of all those awful foreigners- and all they stand for- will never admit their error and will either go blindly on , pretending that everything is just fine, or will adopt the 'Trump Card' by asserting that the downturn in the nation's fortunes has been caused by somebody rigging the economy to fail, so as to justify their doom-laden ( but accurate) predictions...
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Re: Is the United Kingdom doomed?

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