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Peace formula

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Peace formula

Post by Charlatan on Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:09 am

In the world the peace process chokes every so often. Then we see prolonged violence. Think of all the problems there are in the world, how do we solve them all? Through diplomacy I would figure, and this diplomacy must wreck the support of the soldiers fighting for the side that is the problem - usually rebels. If there is a way to get rid of the soldiers, the generals will have no army, then turn to terrorism through bombings. Therefore, instead o targetting the soldiers, we need to target the leaders, but then they can be replaced!

Now we should understand the need for diplomacy. If there was a way to get them to the table and then negotiate, they could sort it out. Usually the other side will agree to negotiation - all you hve to do is get them to lay down arms for a while. Stalling will lead to growing comfort and distaste at going back to 'war.' If we were to observe the enemy of the people, maybe they should get it through their heads that they are the enemy of the people indeed. They would kill anyone wearing a state uniform, and these people serve the people, so what do rebels do? They fight the peaceful life of the people, basically.

Maybe we should kill all of the rebels? They could easily kill them if they knew where they were. Knowing where the enemy is can be accomplished with thermal identifiers and then they can carpet bomb them with bombs or sleeping gasses. If we have google maps, we should be able to find these people and sort them out.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:09 am

Even the most inattentive student in History Class will have realised that WAR is the default human condition, not Peace.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:04 pm

Some people only understand that they are wrong by a punch in the face for their offense...and, sometimes not even that works.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by witchfinder on Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:18 pm

The way to peace is to talk to your enemy

Here in the UK we made peace in Northern Ireland by bringing all sides together and negotiating, and for some people it was unbearable and unacceptable to talk to terrorists.

The question is this : where would we be right now if we had not talked to terrorists in Northern Ireland. ? --- ANSWER = Still Fighting

In Afghanistan we should be talking to the Taliban, even if its exploratory talks to see if theres a way through.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:23 pm

In Afghanistan we should be talking to the Taliban, even if its exploratory talks to see if theres a way through.


Tried that in 1842. Didn't work.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Shirina on Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:31 pm

The question is this : where would we be right now if we had not talked to terrorists in Northern Ireland. ?
The problem here is that the English and the Irish have FAR more in common than Americans have with Islamic Afghans, Pakistanis, Iranians, etc. You had those commonalities to build upon. Even more to the point, issues with the IRA were purely political, and there is always room for negotiation when it comes to political matters. Many issues the West has with Islamic terrorists are cultural and religious in nature, and there is absolutely NO room for negotiation in that arena. Keep in mind that terrorist attacks like 9/11 are very rare. Most attacks are against Danish cartoonists, Christians in Islamic nations, teachers who name a teddybear "Muhammad," and television producers who air shows like South Park. While the West might be able to negotiate over such things as coalition forces stationed in Arab nations, even that is unlikely. Where we have forces stationed, such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia, the forces are actually there by request. The Saudis actually built a brand new state-of-the-art airbase to be used by American F-15 aircraft. What right does a terrorist organization, representing no national interests, have in telling a sovereign nation like Saudi Arabia which nations they can invite into their territory? So what if these extremists hate having infidel armies stationed in their holy land? The legitimate ruler of Saudi Arabia wants them there, and that is who we recognize as calling the shots, not a rabble with AK-47s and strap-on bombs.

The other major issue is America's support of Israel, but again, America decides who America supports, not a group of terrorists. How do we negotiate that? Does America have to abandon its alliance with Israel to appease extremists? Most likely ... but will that ever happen? Nope.

The bottom line is that we're not willing to negotiate away our principles of freedom and national sovereignty to appease extremists and terrorists. And I say ... good!
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Charlatan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:20 pm

Of course thinking that all conflicts are can be adressed in one point is also stupid. Recognising each case as it is is the best way to deal with it. If we want to stop north korea's spiral into oblivion, which is happening, we need to life sanctions on them. They are just a communist country, and this bull of human rights abuses is no different to anything going on in africa or the rest of asia. Nothing is done there, so they need to respect this semingly 'awesome' power and let them trade with everyone else.

As for iran, there is no threat. They have spies there to report on any nuke talk, which they have nothing to report on, so there is no problem there.

To get rid of rebels they should use subliminal programming on the radio telling of obama's visit to the nearest military base to give them a target, somewhere nobody goes. This way they can search every person going there.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by astra on Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:30 pm

The question is this : where would we be right now if we had not talked to terrorists in Northern Ireland.

Thing is, that the maimings, shootings and bribery and corruption still persists. Indeed, even now, Police and Soldiers are still being shot dead and blown up in their cars. So nothing is solved. The terrorists are even in parliament, but this has NOT assuaged their lust for dripping, oozing blood!
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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:42 pm

I've never seen or heard a satisfactory explanation for Westminster's determination to hang on to that part of Ireland which was not lost to it in 1922.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by tlttf on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:08 am

Shirina, how quaint to believe Northern Ireland was political, how quaint to believe that America picks it's own friends, (I'm assuming of course that you supported America supplying arms and funding to the murdering b*stards formerly know as the IRA). OW, simply ask the people of Northern Ireland whether they perceive themselves as being part of Britain and you'll find yourself talking to arguably the most loyal and determined people under the British flag. Should be reasonable enough.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by Guest on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:46 am

tlttf wrote:
Shirina... (I'm assuming of course that you supported America supplying arms and funding to the murdering b*stards formerly know as the IRA).

Why do you assume such? Perhaps I’ve missed it, but I see no evidence in Shirina’s post that she “supported America supplying arms and funding to the murdering b*stards formerly know as the IRA.” In fact, I see no mention whatsoever of “the murdering b*stards formerly know as the IRA” anywhere in her post.

Perhaps you can explain to me the discrepancy between your assumption and Shirina’s post’s content.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by tlttf on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:51 am

Even more to the point, issues with the IRA were purely political.

Sorry rock, but if that isn't endorsing the murdering f*cks what is. Remember that the USA didn't realise that terrorism was a problem until it landed on your own doorstep.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by Guest on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:52 am

Shirina wrote:
The problem here is that the English and the Irish have FAR more in common than Americans have with Islamic Afghans, Pakistanis, Iranians, etc. You had those commonalities to build upon. Even more to the point, issues with the IRA were purely political, and there is always room for negotiation when it comes to political matters. Many issues the West has with Islamic terrorists are cultural and religious in nature, and there is absolutely NO room for negotiation in that arena. Keep in mind that terrorist attacks like 9/11 are very rare. Most attacks are against Danish cartoonists, Christians in Islamic nations, teachers who name a teddybear "Muhammad," and television producers who air shows like South Park. While the West might be able to negotiate over such things as coalition forces stationed in Arab nations, even that is unlikely. Where we have forces stationed, such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia, the forces are actually there by request. The Saudis actually built a brand new state-of-the-art airbase to be used by American F-15 aircraft. What right does a terrorist organization, representing no national interests, have in telling a sovereign nation like Saudi Arabia which nations they can invite into their territory? So what if these extremists hate having infidel armies stationed in their holy land? The legitimate ruler of Saudi Arabia wants them there, and that is who we recognize as calling the shots, not a rabble with AK-47s and strap-on bombs.

The other major issue is America's support of Israel, but again, America decides who America supports, not a group of terrorists. How do we negotiate that? Does America have to abandon its alliance with Israel to appease extremists? Most likely ... but will that ever happen? Nope.

The bottom line is that we're not willing to negotiate away our principles of freedom and national sovereignty to appease extremists and terrorists. And I say ... good!

Hot damn, Shirina! Preach it, sister, preach it!

As you’ve said so forcefully and eloquently, Americans bow to no terrorists, no time, no ay, and no how. It’s your country, it’s my country, it’s our country, damnit, and too many have died in its defense for we Americans to ever waver in the face of international hoodlums brandishing AK-47’s that prey on the innocent, including little Afghani girls in Afghanistan who want to learn to read, write, and count, that run fully-fueled airplanes filled with innocent passengers into skyscrapers and other buildings, and who murder British citizens in the tube and on the busses of London.

Shirina, go ‘head on with your bad self! If I seem emotional, it’s because your post has brought out my pride in my country and my fellow Americans.

This one’s for you.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by Guest on Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:05 am


tlttf wrote:
Even more to the point, issues with the IRA were purely political.

Sorry rock, but if that isn't endorsing the murdering f*cks what is. Remember that the USA didn't realise that terrorism was a problem until it landed on your own doorstep.

My bad on the mention of IRA.

Sorry, Tlttf, Shirina’s mention of the IRA (a) is absolutely accurate, and (b) is in no way “endorsing the murdering f**ks.”

Exactly on point, issues with the IRA were purely political. I’ve said it, I mean it, and if you take exception to what I’ve said, take it up with me.

If you wish to discuss this statement, which echoes exactly in content Tony Blair’s eloquent commentary during an interview with Ted Koppel, I’m here.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by tlttf on Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:37 am

Like you rock, I'm passionately loyal to my country and way of life. Simply because Blair grovelled and destroyed what credibility his government had didn't/doesn't make it right.

So if a terrorist makes so much noise and causes so much damage that a cowardly prime minister opens a dialogue, does that then make the issue political and the history of the murdering f*cks go away. Your point of view whilst valid is in the case of the IRA (good old boys) incorrect.

It was in Shirinas post I noted the description, if she copied it from one of your posts, whilst an apology is not needed I'm sure she'll understand it wasn't a personal attack on her.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by Shirina on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:27 pm

(I'm assuming of course that you supported America supplying arms and funding to the murdering b*stards formerly know as the IRA).

Why would I support them? I don't have a drop of Irish blood in my body, so, as the saying goes, I don't have a dog in that fight. As Rock pointed out, I never said a word about supporting terrorism. In fact, I believe I expressed just the opposite. All I meant with my previous post is that the goals of the IRA are not to fundamentally change the English way of life. They aren't trying to stifle your freedom of speech and expression by threatening you with bombs if you don't adhere to Islamic blasphemy laws. They aren't trying to put English women in nijabs. They aren't telling England which nations to support and which allies to abandon. They aren't trying to bully sovereign nations into kicking out the West so the Muslim extremists can move in. I know the IRA are terrorists, but I was trying to point out that England has a far better chance of negotiating with them than the West does with radical Islam. That's it. Nothing more.
Even more to the point, issues with the IRA were purely political.
The goals of the IRA have always been political - not religious, not cultural - political. The Irish do not consider the English "infidels" and they are not reading from a "holy book" that orders them to behead all English. What they IRA fight for, they fight for themselves and NOT to push their ideologies, religion, culture, values, and worldviews onto the English people. That is more than I can say for Muslim extremists who won't be happy until every last man, woman, and child is on their knees five times per day. This is by no means a defense of the IRA; both the IRA and the Islamofascists are terrorists and I condemn them both.
Remember that the USA didn't realise that terrorism was a problem until it landed on your own doorstep.
In truth, the US has acknowledged terrorism as a problem for quite awhile since our overseas interests have been attacked by terrorists long before 9/11. The irony is that the rest of Europe sat idle. When a German discotheque was bombed, President Reagan ordered punitive airstrikes against Libya and Ghaddafi's terrorists - and American aircraft were denied the use of French, Spanish, and Italian airspace. Nor would they allow the US to use any NATO bases in the region. Due to the cowardly actions (or inaction as the case may be) of these nations, most of the raid on Libya flew off our carriers since, LOLingly enough, Spain, France, and Italy can't tell America how to conduct flight operations from four and one-half acres of sovereign American territory. The US actually came within a hair's width of revealing for the first time her F-117 stealth bombers; they were going to fly all the way from Nevada to blast Libya since France wouldn't let US planes fly a lousy 500 miles. France, of course, would rather give nuclear reactors to dictators like Saddam than to actually fight (nothing new there); and this despite terrorist bombs going off in French airports all throughout the 80's. I sometimes wonder if even an ounce of patriotism can be squeezed out of every French politician who has lived since De Gaulle.

And then there's the Achille Lauro hijacking which saw Leon Klinghoffer, a man in a wheelchair, tossed overboard by Palestinian terrorists. The Egyptians actually agreed to give the terrorists a commercial jet in exchange for the hostages ... but our carriers were back at it again when F-14s intercepted the plane and diverted it to Sicily. But then they were arrested by Italian police, and now the Italians were going to let them go. This resulted in a face-off between US Navy SEALs and Italian soldiers (LOL!) and yet the leader of the Palestinian Liberation Front was allowed to saunter off as if he were as innocent as a baby. Thanks, Italy!! And if America didn't suffer enough of an indignity over being screwed by one of our own allies, imagine the disgust when Egypt had the temerity to demand and apology from the US for "forcing an Egyptian plane off course." Never mind how America has been pumping billions of dollars into the Egyptian economy courtesy of the American taxpayer - one of whom was tossed overboard from an Italian cruise ship like so much garbage.

At least Britain was gracious enough to let us fly our aircraft from British bases, but the USA got up and started fighting against international terrorism at least since 1979 when the hostages were taken in Iran. Meanwhile, Europe - especially France - was harboring such noteworthy chaps as the Ayatollah Khomeini and, yes, even Osama bin Laden. Just like in Munich, the ramifications of European appeasement and flippant apathy toward international terrorism during the 70's and 80's are coming back to bite us all. Europe fought against America every step of the way when this form of terrorism was still in its embryonic stage; isn't it mildly ironic how we're back in Libya gunning for Ghaddafi - again - almost 30 years later? Too bad Reagan was unable to take the gloves off back in '86.
As you’ve said so forcefully and eloquently, Americans bow to no terrorists, no time, no ay, and no how.
Damn straight! Now you're preachin' it, Rock.




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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:55 pm

QUOTE: "ask the people of Northern Ireland whether they perceive themselves as being part of Britain ...."

By coincidence I did have the opportunity of discussing the matter with a charming Ulsterman I met on the beach in Spain. He was a self-employed builder, and praised the London government for the speed with which they settled his bills for reconstructing buildings damaged by bombing.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Charlatan on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:37 pm

[quote="Shirina]
As you’ve said so forcefully and eloquently, Americans bow to no terrorists, no time, no ay, and no how.
Damn straight! Now you're preachin' it, Rock. [/quote]

I think everyone is missing the point of looking for peace, because, in the end, if there is no peace, there must be war. Taking the eyes of your enemy will leave the whole world blind, to sound 'cliche'. They cannot kill these 'b*stards', they will breed more as people see the arms leaning against them, they will gather. There is no shepard to strike, they are numerous. Negotiation is a good idea - why kill a pregnant woman? Why kill two more men? Why order two more soldiers to die for you? If we have rights so do soldiers, and if you can spare their lives, why persist in war?

This war cannot be won. The more kids see their uncles being taken away in police vehicles and hear of water boarding or whatever, they will come back in numbers. People are pathetic in this regaurd - "what has happened to me? What do I deserve? What about me? What about my family?" - you know what I am talking about, some gutteral vocal orchestra from people that have nothing better to do than be angry, coming from some primal place. This is like fighting fire with fire - bonfire you will have, then disaster.

They need to get the ira, the taliban, the kurds... all of them, together, and show them love. Tak things slowly, start with a handshake, go for a hug, before you know it you knwo these people and they will not kill people they know so well. Dialogue is the only way to go.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by astra on Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:26 pm

They need to get the ira, the taliban, the kurds... all of them, together, and show them love.

Britain has the medal, the tee shirt and the scars of trying above ideas

Two Israeli Prime Ministers HATED the UK and ALL it stands for, yet our stupid Gubmints of the time cosseted them -

Menachin Begin - shot and killed 3 British Army Sergeants while in uniform
Sharon HATED the UK and BLAMED UK for the death of his parents in the death camps - well excuse me!

Then there is the IRA
Gerry Adams - leader of the 'political wing' of the IRA and UK Member of Parliament in Westminster so loved on the American after dinner speech circuit! - used to write in the official IRA rag as BROWNIE hates the UK since his brother was shot dead while trying to shoot up a check point
Martin MCGuiness member of the 'Political Wing' of the IRA, Member of the UK Parliament so loved on the American circuit for fund raising rallies, and both of the above named have NOT taken their seats in the House of Parliament - never, in years since election to post!

negotiating with these people is impossible

For me, Netanyahou is someone I will listen to his bitterness is not aimed at the UK! See the Entebe raid wher his Elder Brother as commander of the raid was kiiled in the attempt (successful) as it was.

My diplomatic instincts lead in the direction of the SAS and SEAL TEAM 6!
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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:51 pm

[quote="Shirina"]
....American aircraft were denied the use of French, Spanish, and Italian airspace. Nor would they allow the US to use any NATO bases in the region. Due to the cowardly actions (or inaction as the case may be) of these nations, most of the raid on Libya flew off our carriers since, LOLingly enough, Spain, France, and Italy can't tell America how to conduct flight operations from four and one-half acres of sovereign American territory. The US actually came within a hair's width of revealing for the first time her F-117 stealth bombers; they were going to fly all the way from Nevada to blast Libya since France wouldn't let US planes fly a lousy 500 miles. France, of course, would rather give nuclear reactors to dictators like Saddam ....

Purely to complete the story, France refused to grant permission to the Air Force F-111s to fly over its territory--the most direct route from their bases in Britain to the targets around Tripoli--forcing the attack planes to fly a circuitous, 3,200-mile route. Flying over France would have cut 1,200 miles off the length of the trip.

Spanish Prime Minister Felipe Gonzalez said he would have refused permission to cross Spain if he had been asked but was not. Gonzalez said a damaged F-111 was allowed to land at the U.S. naval base at Rota, Spain, only because international air safety regulations require all nations to render assistance to aircraft in distress.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by witchfinder on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:35 pm

With reference to Nrthern Ireland and in particular to [oftenwrong]

It has never been Westminster or the British who insist on holding on to Northern Ireland, it is the people who live in Northern Ireland, or at least the majority who live there who insist on remaining part of the UK.

After the Great War prior to Irish seperation, the unionists in the north threatened a massive uprising and civil war if the British govenment made any attempt place them in an independent, catholic Ireland.

To [astra]

There is no comparison between now and the time before the ceasefire, there were daily attacks, people killed almost every day, bombings and shootings.

In recent years, splinter group The Real IRA have continued on with the attacks, a grand total of two soldiers have been killed by them in the last 11 years, they have also murdered three of their own members.

During the civil war in Northern Ireland, known as "The Troubles", there were well over 3000 people killed, more than were murdered in the 911 attack on the United States.

Anyone who thinks that you must never talk to your enemy is a fool

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Re: Peace formula

Post by Shirina on Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:13 pm

Anyone who thinks that you must never talk to your enemy is a fool
That's not necessarily true, witch. There are a number of variables: what the enemy wants, what the enemy will do to achieve those goals, whether the point of contention can even be negotiated, whether we are able to find common ground, whether we must negotiate from a position of strength or weakness, and trusting the enemy well enough to believe he'll keep his word instead of setting ourselves up for another Munich. By and large, most of these variables can be ascertained without any need for face-to-face negotiations.

In the case of Muslim extremism, few (if any) of these variables play out in the West's favor, so there is little incentive to sit down with them. To make matters worse, they are extremists. Even if the formal representatives of a terrorist organization agree to certain conditions, a splinter cell will arise that will not. The IRA is a classic case taken from Britain's own history. Fortunately for England, the new IRA is either inept or gutless, but Muslim extremists have proven to be neither. Another good example is the assassination of Anwar Sadat after he formally recognized the state of Israel. Talking with your enemies is great if all parties agree to it, but that is rarely ever the case with extremists.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:26 pm

The rulers of Iran are hell-bent upon forcing a resolution to the East-West dichotomy, and do not expect to lose the argument.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by astra on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:05 pm

Witch, War was never declared in Ulster by the British Government, under US persuasion. Not a war and no campaign medals issued to troops on return to barracks in the mainland.

If WAR HAD BEEN DECLARED, those troops would NOT have had to read a yellow card with instructions on to find if they could fire back at the bad people shooting at them!


Anyone who thinks that you must never talk to your enemy is a fool


True! BUT! what we have here is a csae of the tail wagging the dog! The cart pulling the Horse. This is IMO NOT a solution that is going to be satisfactory enough to provide safety and security for our Grand children!
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Re: Peace formula

Post by astra on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:39 pm

The oil in Iran is covetted by the French and the Germans. I fear that Cameron or more probably Haig is going to start a slanging match pretty soon - he just can't help himself. The rest of Europe ain't gonna help either! They are aware that as soon as they open their mouths, their Embassies will be raided as well, and they sure as hell do not want that to happen. This was given a blind eye by the regime in Iran, from the top, and how this is going to pan out may not be for the faint hearted. To my mind our top brass should sit on their hands for a few months and suck it and see! Ark Royal is scrapped in Turkey, Illustrious is our only carrier, of helicopters! and Ocean is in for a refit. We have no aircraft in reserve - cept for a few Tucano Turboprop trainers and some Hawk trainers what they gonna do?

When the Shah was ousted, young 18 year olds were being trained as pilots at Perth Aerodrome and at Hurn airfield. These men will not hardly be 50 years old yet, have wandered freely around GB since, Some will possibly be in the Iran Airforce top brass as we speak and will have this sad country all measured up. Indeed go to jetphotos.com enter iran airforce and you do not have far to go to see iranian C130s at the now disbanded RAF Machrihanish

Question - will Argentina jump on the opportunity given so freely to them?[img][/img] www.airliners.net




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Re: Peace formula

Post by Guest on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:47 pm

Shirina wrote:

Anyone who thinks that you must never talk to your enemy is a fool
That's not necessarily true, witch. There are a number of variables: what the enemy wants, what the enemy will do to achieve those goals, whether the point of contention can even be negotiated, whether we are able to find common ground, whether we must negotiate from a position of strength or weakness, and trusting the enemy well enough to believe he'll keep his word instead of setting ourselves up for another Munich.

Paragraph 1: Some people prefer their heroes to be perfect. I prefer my heroes to be humans who step forward without waiting to be perfect. I prefer my God to be perfect.

Anyone who chooses to denigrate the hero mentioned below, please see Paragraph 1.

Tony Blair, one of my heroes, in an interview with Ted Koppel (which I’ve been unable to locate on the Internet despite repeated attempts), asked this question of Koppel: “Do you know why al qaida murdered three thousand people on September 11?”

Koppel gave a perfectly correct answer along the lines of al qaida’ desire to destroy the Western way of life.

Tony Blair’s answer was so profound that I called loved ones in later time ones so that they could see the broadcast. Mr. Blair, one of the eloquent elucidators of geopolitical truth of my cognizant lifetime, said (substantively correct, almost exact quote from memory), “Because they couldn’t murder thirty thousand.”

Shirina, I’m Earvin Johnson Jr. and you’re Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Sky hook time.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by astra on Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:10 pm

This from BBC -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-15988328

Manston airport stops refuelling Iran Air flights Iran Airlines was able to land at Heathrow but not refuel its aircraft in London Continue reading the main story
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A Kent airport has stopped allowing aircraft from Iran's national airline to make refuelling stops on return journeys from Heathrow.

Kent International Airport at Manston said it made the decision in the last week amid the worsening diplomatic relationship between the UK and Iran.

Chief executive Charles Buchanan said the decision was the "right thing to do" for ethical reasons.
more on the link.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Shirina on Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:27 pm

Shirina, I’m Earvin Johnson Jr. and you’re Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Sky hook time.

When the USA stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, Saipan, and Okinawa, the soldiers were absolutely shocked at how they had to ferret Japanese soldiers out of hidey-holes all over these islands and slaughter them almost to the last man. Much better to die in a banzai charge than to be taken prisoner!

One of my favorite historians, Stephen Ambrose, called it the "Western Mode" of combat. When an enemy is beaten, we expect him to lay down his arms, put his hands in the air, and give up. We expect nice and neat surrenders complete with documents and signatures. The West does not like ambiguous ceasefires, armistices, and quasi-temporary reprieves. North and South Korea are still, to this day, officially at war with each other. The 39th Parallel was supposed to be a temporary border during a cease fire that has lasted half a century. Because of this, 30,000 US soldiers have to stand a post along the North Korean border. This is why we like big surrender ceremonies, not cease fires.

When the West fights, one side or the other capitulates. Russians, Germans, Italians, Romanians, etc. went into POW camps by the hundreds of thousands. Japanese soldiers went into POW camps by the onesies and twosies. Why? Because they did not fight in the "Western Mode;" fortunately by the time US forces hit these islands, American firepower was almost ridiculously superior to Japanese forces else we might still be slugging it out over there to this day. It took two atomic bombs and the near simultaneous declaration of war by the massive Soviet Steamroller to bring Japan to the table.

Muslim extremists, just like the Kamikazes and those hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers who futilely threw themselves against the unstoppable US juggernaut, have no regard for surrender, and most likely would not even know the meaning of that word.

Skyhook --> Slam Dunk?
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Guest on Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:44 pm

Shirina wrote:

Shirina, I’m Earvin Johnson Jr. and you’re Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Sky hook time.
Skyhook --> Slam Dunk?

Rock the house!

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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:00 pm

QUOTE: "Muslim extremists, just like the Kamikazes and those hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers who futilely threw themselves against the unstoppable US juggernaut, have no regard for surrender, and most likely would not even know the meaning of that word."

It's so rare to encounter someone with such a perfect grasp of the Muslim mentality, that it seems churlish to take issue.

However, the description given would seem to apply equally to a wild animal. An opponent with no understanding of logic. Can that be true?
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Re: Peace formula

Post by witchfinder on Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:09 pm

Quote: "Muslim extremists, just like the Kamikazes and those hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers who futilely threw themselves against the unstoppable US juggernaut, have no regard for surrender, and most likely would not even know the meaning of that word."

The total so far of US forces killed in Afghanistan is 1774, British personel killed so far is 392, then of course there are the others, Australians, Canadians, French and Germans etc.

The Afghan war is now in its 11th year, longer than the Great War and the Second World War combined, I dont see any sign what so ever of the "unstoppable US juggernaut", indeed the allies have more or less given up on any hope of beating the Taliban.

Most of the allies now have plans to withdraw over the next few years, most British forces will be out of Afghanistan by 2014.

If talking to the Taliban meant there would be no more widows created, then talk talk talk.

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Re: Peace formula

Post by jackthelad on Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:41 pm

Witchfinder says.
If talking to the Taliban meant there would be no more widows created, then talk talk talk.


Maybe not other nationals, but if they get into power again, there will be more Afganistan widows and widowers, they where not averse to executing women when they were in power before. In fact they are still doing it, any Afgan that opposes them get the chop, it will never be a two party state.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Shirina on Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:37 pm

It's so rare to encounter someone with such a perfect grasp of the Muslim mentality, that it seems churlish to take issue.
I make no claims of understanding the "Muslim" mentality. I will make the claim of understanding "extremist" mentality.
However, the description given would seem to apply equally to a wild animal. An opponent with no understanding of logic. Can that be true?
Actually, I think the comparison is just the opposite. Most (not all) extremists, especially those of the Muslim variety, behave like trained animals. During WWII, a number of schemes were hatched to invent a "poor man's" guided weapon. One scheme involved strapping bombs to dolphins and training them to swim out to enemy ships and detonating them. Another was to put pigeons in missiles. The pigeon was trained to peck at a picture of a ship, so when the pigeon saw a real ship, it would peck, and the pecking would keep the missile on course. Neither the pigeon or the dolphin had much choice in the matter. If you are trained from birth to hate your enemy and fed cherry-picked verses from the Koran to foster religious zealotry, then even a pregnant woman will strap a bomb to herself. Maternal instincts be damned.

"According to Police sleuths preliminary investigations have revealed that the assassin was a 21 year old tamil woman named Anoja Kuganesarajah from Vavuniya. What is shocking however is the information that the woman was not pretending to be pregnant but was actually five months pregnant."
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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:22 pm

Is the debate again about "brain-washing"? That was how the Western Powers attempted to explain the implacable opposition encountered in Korea in the 1950s.

Or are we simply trying to excuse the impotence of inflicting "our" way of life on other Cultures?
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Shirina on Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:33 pm

Or are we simply trying to excuse the impotence of inflicting "our" way of life on other Cultures?
The vast majority of terrorism in the world has nothing to do with "us."
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Re: Peace formula

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:06 pm

Phew! What a relief!

I can go back to worrying about changing the clocks every Spring and Autumn.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Charlatan on Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:08 am

I think we need a force of about a hundred stationed troops. THis will keep the war there and they can easily deal with the violence in cities, with twenty troops or so in each city. Better than patrolling thousands of personnel all over the place!
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:04 am

Charlatan wrote:
I think we need a force of about a hundred stationed troops. THis will keep the war there and they can easily deal with the violence in cities, with twenty troops or so in each city. Better than patrolling thousands of personnel all over the place!

In harm’s way, one hundred stationed troops are one hundred stationary targets that will become one hundred body bag occupiers in quick time.
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Re: Peace formula

Post by Charlatan on Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:05 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
In harm’s way, one hundred stationed troops are one hundred stationary targets that will become one hundred body bag occupiers in quick time.

Actually, troops of that number fanning out will be more effective, as the people will accept them more and the 'occupation' won't look so bad for the natives. There is also less chance that talking to an american would be seen as talking to a soldier.

What they could then do with the soldiers, is get the veterans who are willing to stay into the afghan secret service, as then they can overlook the area instead of riding around looking for bombs. With the americans gone, they won't be bombing so much, as the people will settle down. Actually, the whole presence of americans there would lead them to think those anti american thoughts as much, which sees more people joining the 'militia.'

Negotiantions should always be open. This is not dealing with terror, it is 'dealing with another country' nearly, and there are always room for negotiation with their national or recognised enemies. They are not breaking the american cultural promises, they are just saving lives, faster even. 'Terrorists' who do not see the enemy relax more, bomb less, or is their argument now with Karzai and the politicians?

Detecting recruiting activity should be at the forefront of the war. If they see less people joining, then they will lose morale! This can be done by placing a national seal on all posters related to terrorism or information requests, because then they are helping each other instead of being seen as helping the west.

So, how do you detect recruitment activity? A hotbed for this sort of thing in the west is to investigate at university campuses, as that will open holes, or at least is does in the west. Being breathing humans it should be the same there too. Good place to start...

Another place to look is at churches, as they will require blesings before they bomb anything. I suppose sanctions could help too, as ilegal things entering the country could be found easier - or a sanction like gig - where things entering the country are investigated. Then they could place only missionaries on the regulation of confiscated weapons, as they do it for free, so have no tendency to steal to line their own pockets.

I think the notion of suicide bombers is getting old fast. When was the last time you heard of one? I see a different mentality - it is no longer a war for god, but rather a political war. Seeing as how blowing things up is as if there is something to be gained, they should enter poltics. That is the only way to cement a change. There is room for negotiation, but i suspect it is a few radicals of the population that mess with the system, not the masses.

If only there was a way yo get the masses to turn on the radicals. I am sure that showing them on the news and relating a lack of investment in the area to it, and holding them responsible for the lack of jobs would get the right against them.
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