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Thatcher changed Britain for the worse

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Thatcher changed Britain for the worse - Page 11 Empty Thatcher changed Britain for the worse

Post by Ivanhoe Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

Through the Thatcher Major, years, millions of British people were made poor as a matter of policy, while others got rich as a matter of policy.

Blair and Brown embraced Thatcherism due to the change in the British, and now Milliband wants to change Labour again due to a changed Britain.

I personally long for a political party that sticks to it's core values, that has conviction, that does not change itself to suit a greedy selfish uncaring British populas who'se only thought is "self". In my view this "self" is mainly among the British middle classes.

Thatcher changed Britain for the worse, and now we are reaping through this dreadful coalition, what has been sown.
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Post by Ivan Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:04 pm

Why would anyone celebrate the death of Margaret Thatcher? Ask a Chilean

Extracts from an article by Dave Zirin:-

Thousands took to the streets of the UK and beyond to celebrate. Immediately this drew strong condemnation of what were called "death parties," described as “tasteless”, “horrible” and “beneath all human decency.” Yet if the same media praising Thatcher and appalled by the popular response would bother to ask one of the people celebrating, they might get a story that doesn't fit into their narrative, which is probably why they aren't asking at all.

I received a note from a friend of a friend. She lives in the UK, although her family didn't arrive there by choice. They had to flee Chile, like thousands of others, when it was under the thumb of General Augusto Pinochet. He was a merciless overseer of torture, rapes and thousands of political executions. He had the hands and wrists of the country's greatest folk singer, Victor Jara, broken in front of a crowd of prisoners before killing him. He had democratically elected socialist President Salvador Allende shot dead at his desk. His specialty was torturing people in front of their families. As Naomi Klein has written, he then used this period of shock and slaughter to install a nationwide laboratory for neoliberal economics.

Pinochet was in charge of this human rights catastrophe. He also was someone who Thatcher called a friend. She stood by the general even when he was in exile, attempting to escape justice for his crimes. As she said to Pinochet, "Thank you for bringing democracy to Chile". Therefore, if I want to know why someone would celebrate the death of Thatcher, I think asking a Chilean in exile would be a great place to start.


http://www.thenation.com/blog/173731/why-would-anyone-celebrate-death-margaret-thatcher-ask-chilean#

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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:15 pm

They WERE nationalised, until Thatcher sold them in a manner that made a reversal impossibly expensive due to the compensation claims which would have arisen. Now the owners of Energy supplies in Britain are foreigners.

Are you suggesting Scottish Water is owned by bloody Johnny foreigner, pass me my claymore.
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Post by jackthelad Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:26 pm

Tosh wrote:Jack,

You must have worked in one of the few mines that were economically viable, most were subsidised up to their neck.

Thatcher identified a real problem in our country with our nationalised industries but I do accept her remedy was cruel and ideological in nature, she should have revamped our manufacturing base rather than destroying it.

But lets be clear the blame must lie with both Thatcher and the Unions for the demise of British manufacturing.

Most wasn't being subsidised, they said they wanted to shut six uneconomical pits, plus three more were in the pipe line because they were not doing to well because of geological problems. Only trouble, Scargill had seen a list were there where a lot more than nine, so he wouldn't let them start, if he had the rot would have set in and they all would fall like a set of dominoes. Cheap imported coal is not so cheap now, and it is probable mined by slave labour, have talk with South African miners who have protested about wages and conditions and were shot by South African police, at least, Maggie Thatcher didn't go that far, just got the cops to give the young striking miners a good kicking. Anyway, we lost, and what Scargill said came true, they ought to be playing Devil Woman as well as Ding Ding the Witch is Dead.
Maggie sold the railways, they are now privatised, still costing the British tax payer billions to bolster the owners. The East Coast line was taken back in to public owner ship because the people running it made a mess of the job. It is now profitable making the tax payer millions, but the Tories have decided to re sell it. We are ruled by lunatics, and it is only lunatics that can support them.
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Post by sickchip Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:54 pm

Thatcher changed Britain for the worse - Page 11 2Q==

A strong woman with her good friend.
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Post by jackthelad Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:55 pm

Forgot to say, I voted against striking, because I thought pouring money into a troubled pit was wasting money and could be spent on pits that could produce more coal. Foolish me, Arthur was right about what he was saying, I didn't believe Arthur because I didn't like the man, thought is rhetoric was too Bolshie.

I still stayed out for the full twelve months, made redundant three month after going back, the old ones went first. Forty years of mining experience didn't mean a thing to them, we didn't only lose a colliery when they shut it, a Coalite plant had to close because the pit supplied them them with the coal that they extracted oil and chemicals from. We had a Brickyard too, but the lack of building houses forced that to close too, no other industries came in to fill the void. Result, a lack of shops, our village is now called a town, we even have a mayor, mayor to a ghost town. Only good thing that came out of all the closures were nice cleaner air, but nothing else.
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:38 pm

Curious how many people continue to vilify the Trade Unions for trying to preserve jobs.

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Post by ROB Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:50 pm

Los Angeles Time
Margaret Thatcher dies at 87; Britain's first female prime minister

April 08, 2013 By Henry Chu and Patt Morrison, Los Angeles Times

The woman many regard as Britain's most important peacetime leader of the 20th century shook her country like an earthquake after moving into 10 Downing St. in 1979. In nearly a dozen years at the top, she transformed the political and economic landscape through a conservative free-market revolution bearing her name, Thatcherism, which sought to reverse Britain's postwar decline and the welfare state that she felt accelerated it.

Like Reagan, Thatcher was a fierce cold warrior. But it was a "hot" conflict that vaulted her into the international spotlight.

In 1982, Argentina invaded the British-ruled Falkland Islands. Caught by surprise, Thatcher launched a military force that recaptured the islands, adorning her leadership with victory laurels and making her a world figure.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/08/local/la-me-margaret-thatcher-20130409
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:57 pm

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Post by tlttf Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:00 pm

Shame nobody took time out to thank her for stopping this country from becoming a communist safe haven really. Most were likely too young to appreciate the shitty state the country was in at the time.

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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:02 pm

Curious how many people continue to vilify the Trade Unions for trying to preserve jobs.

This sums up the 70s and 80s, Trade Unions preserving jobs nearly bankrupted this country, but hey never mind us non-Union members, we were not part of this democracy.

Unions cannot manage, and management decide if jobs should be preserved or not, unions negotiate redundancy settlements.
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:06 pm

Shame nobody took time out to thank her for stopping this country from becoming a communist safe haven really. Most were likely too young to appreciate the shitty state the country was in at the time.

People hate Thatcher, I hated Arthur Scargill and that weasel Derek Hatton, never met a socialist yet who didn't look after number 1.
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:09 pm

Industrial relations in the 70s was an extension of the class struggle, Thatcher just made more working people middle class, its called progress.

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Post by boatlady Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:14 pm

Although I feel we've all said everything we need to say about the late bitch - a link forwarded to me today - a bit too good to waste methinks:-


YouTube
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Post by methought Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:43 pm

Thatcher made selfishness respectable - just retweeting a comment by a popular and tasteless comedian. Ding dong the wicked witch is dead - that's another one. Let's have some fancy dress street parties! - oh - and please bring back Spitting Image....

Yes Thatcher changed Britain in ways that are still the same today. If she was leading today, though she may not be letting things stay the same, because she moved the goal posts so many times that people had to rethink their identities in ways that went beyond class and political affiliation. Today's Tories have fixed inequality in ways she would not have considered respectable.

She did at least have conviction though, unlike the lily-livered Tony Blair who deludes himself he's a good guy when he is complicit in Bush's crimes against humanity. Margaret Thatcher believed in principles and put her beliefs into action. She put an end to the mob rule of the unions, and brought in shares for workers who were too stupid to know what to do with them.

At the time when she was in power I used to say that she was so amazing - I just wished she was on 'our' (lefty) side.

Today the only politician with principles is Vince Cable and he has 2 left feet which he must know the taste of very well....
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Post by methought Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Trade Unions preserving jobs nearly bankrupted this country

Funny how archaic that looks now when it is financial services that have bankrupted the country instead
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Post by Ivan Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Most were likely too young to appreciate the shitty state the country was in at the time.
tlttf. Most of the UK regulars on this forum lived through the Thatcher years and can remember the country “at the time”, by which I assume you mean 1979, a year that will be remembered for a very long time (apologies to William McGonagall).

Yes, they were turbulent times. The country was reeling from the effects of the quadrupling of oil and the inflation it caused. Trade unions, fulfilling the role for which they were created, tried to protect the living standards of their members. Because the Labour government had been bounced into going for an IMF loan in 1976, much of which was never used and which some economists have argued was unnecessary in the first place, conditions were imposed by the IMF on government policies. When a 5% pay rise limit was imposed at a time when inflation was running at around 10%, it’s hardly surprising that trade unions recognised that as a reduction in the real value of wages and industrial unrest followed.

So what was so “shitty”, as you so delicately put it, in 1979, when unemployment was 1.4 million? Well, VAT was only 8% and had much more limited scope, national insurance was 6.5%, the state retirement pension was linked to average earnings, prescriptions cost 20p an item, dental check-ups and eye tests were free, and school meals were subsidised and had nutritional value.

By 1979, after five years of Labour rule, annual government expenditure had fallen as a share of GDP from 25.7% to 22.9%, and the national debt had been reduced from 50% to 46%. We also had one of the lowest levels of poverty in Europe, and Britain (in terms of wealth) was at its most equal ever. Haven’t you been telling us recently that inequality concerns you? If that’s the case, why you do you so revere the woman who presided over more inequality (and deliberately created it) than any Prime Minister before Cameron?
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:48 pm

I watched her live, inappropriate in my eyes, but as the speaker said it broke no parliamentary procedures.
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Post by Ivan Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:11 pm

Tosh. I don’t see why Glenda Jackson’s speech was inappropriate. I think Glenn Greenwald explains it better than I could:-

“That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power.

Those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.”


http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/16856-focus-margaret-thatcher-and-misapplied-death-etiquette

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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:15 pm

Ivan,

You seem to be missing the point, our govt is elected to do a job on our behalf, part of this job is to react to changing economic conditions. The Govt were prevented from reacting to high inflation and high energy costs by an unelected political party called the TUC.
Socialism was tested by the global market and it failed the test, the vast public sector unions used their power and influence to overthrow a democratic govt and threaten the country's economic stability, all to preserve the jobs and the standards of living of its union members. The trade unions had accumulated too much power and influence over government and that was not their function.

Now if you do not understand this basic premise then you simply do not understand politics or democracy.


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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:23 pm

People make me laugh when they lambast our political leaders for meeting with lobby groups and influential media moguls, in the 70's our govt had to consult the TUC before it embarked on any major domestic policy.

It was ludicrous and it needed a maverick to change it, Margaret Thatcher had the balls and the will to take on the Union Moguls who thought they ran Britain.
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:28 pm

Thatcher will correctly go down in history as the PM who restored democracy and individual liberty to this country, my life was being governed by an unelected special interest group who were not interested in me or any non-union member.
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:37 pm

Throwing millions of workers onto the scrapheap was described as "A price worth paying."

Can anyone recall what it purchased?
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:55 pm

Can anyone recall what it purchased?

Freedom from union control, democracy and the ability to react to globalisation.

If we had not dumped our loss making experiment of excessive nationalization then we would be still be in the 70s, just like Cuba.

Can we even imagine a nationalized car industry in 2013 ?
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:02 pm

We can certainly imagine a privatised Energy Industry. Foreign shareholders are bleeding Britain dry for an essential commodity.
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:17 pm

We can certainly imagine a privatised Energy Industry. Foreign shareholders are bleeding Britain dry for an essential commodity.
I happen to agree but cars, steel, coal, trains, coaches, shipbuilding, telecoms, buses, engines, oil and airlines ?

How do you think these industries would compete against the Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Indians and bloody Germans >??

/
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:20 pm

If it wasn't for Thatcher we would all still be using BETAMAX vcr's trying to export them throughout the world.
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:29 pm

Britain used to manufacture and export ....

Cameras
Clocks and watches
Textiles
Ships
Record Players
Small Arms
Motorcycles
Steel
North Sea Oil

Why did that all stop, Tosh?
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:43 pm

Britain sold its nationalized products throughout the colonies, they had to pay the full price, once the colonies were handed back our industries had to compete in the free market, and they could not. Thus we had to drop our prices but not our costs, and the tax payer payed the difference.

Socialized industries simply could not compete in the free market and that is the sad economic reality, Thatcher was callous in remedying this major flaw, and for that she is disliked by most, myself included.
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Post by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:46 pm

Why did that all stop, Tosh?

I am a bit slow on the uptake tonight, its all the grief, what point are you failing to make ?
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Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:00 am

Let us imagine all the nationalized industries were competitive and profit making, does this remove the threat to democracy posed by unions with too much political control and influence ?

The tail was wagging the dog, and the dog wasn't happy.
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Post by tlttf Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:29 am

Apparently Glenda Jackson abstained.


YouGov/Sun Poll: Thatcher more popular than Churchill
Last updated Wed 10 Apr 2013

Politics
Margaret Thatcher

Baroness Thatcher is Britain's most popular prime minister since the Second World War, eclipsing even Sir Winston Churchill, according to a YouGov/Sun poll.

The survey of 1,893 adults revealed:

28% of people named Thatcher as the best of the 13 prime ministers since 1945.
Sir Winston was in second place with 24% of the vote, and Tony Blair in third with 10%.
Nearly half of those polled (48%) felt she left Britain economically better off, 60% felt she left it more respected in the world.

51% believed she created more opportunities for women, 36% declared she left society more free, and 49% said she left a less equal society.
50% of people back her being given a full ceremonial funeral at St Paul's Cathedral next week - the rest disagree or simply do not know what to think.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-04-10/yougov-sun-poll-thatcher-more-popular-than-churchill/

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Post by tlttf Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:34 am

Five myths about Margaret Thatcher that must be refuted
You really ought to follow the link and read all 5 myths, it may hurt people of a sensitive disposition, but hey ho.


by Allister Heath
April 11, 2013, 2:29am

F AR too much nonsense is being spoken about Lady Thatcher’s time in office. Here is my take on five key myths.

MYTH 1: POPULARITY
Thatcher won 43.9 per cent of the vote in 1979, 42.4 per cent per cent in 1983 and 42.2 per cent per cent in 1987, landslide results that contemporary politicians can only dream of. Her opinion polls today remain extremely strong: YouGov polling finds that she is deemed the greatest post-1945 prime minister, and that 52 per cent believe she was a great or a good PM, against 30 per cent who said she was poor or terrible. Even in the north, 49 per cent approve, against 35 per cent who don’t; only in Scotland is the balance against her. Yes, many hated her – but lots loved her, and the majority of today’s public approves.

http://www.cityam.com/article/five-myths-about-margaret-thatcher-must-be-refuted

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Post by sickchip Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:41 am

The unions weren't a threat to democracy. The unions were simply trying to improve the rights and lifestyles of ordinary workers.

The only thing threatened by unions was the aristocracy, and toffs such as the present Bullingdon club incumbents who imagine they are born to rule.

Thatcher and her co-horts concentrated on crushing union power, and consequentially greater equality, through a sustained propaganda campaign against the unions and the passing of laws that suppressed, and oppressed, their voice, and consequentially ordinary workers voices.

Unions need to start refusing to acknowledge the laws passed restricting their movement and industrial actions. Those laws should be recognised as acts to oppress working people and should not be respected. The unions need to behave as they did when first formed.
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Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:14 am

The unions weren't a threat to democracy. The unions were simply trying to improve the rights and lifestyles of ordinary workers.

Improving the lifestyles of their members at the general public's expense without a democratic mandate is a threat to democracy, public sector employment negotiations were carried out without any regard to the taxpayer who was footing the bill for their losses. In effect it was a form of non-democratic taxation, socialism driven by self interest at the expense of the national interest.

Workers need strong unions not political ideologues.
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Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:26 am

The bottom line is Thatcher would have left the unions alone if their industries were economically viable, they were not and instead of remedying this situation they embarked on some socialist crusade that resulted in mass redundancies and a loss of identity for millions of people.

THE EXCESSIVE POWER OF THE UNIONS AFFECTED THE WAY THESE COMPANIES WERE RUN, AND THEY WERE BEING RUN FOR THE BENEFIT OF ITS WORKERS NOT THE TAXPAYER SHAREHOLDERS.
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Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:34 am

Unions turned industrial relations into a class struggle, and paid the price for their ideological ambitions.

We gave them too much rope and they hung themselves with it, good riddance.

The plain reality is, if the working man has been damaged by the impotence of modern unions then the blame lies with their union, they chose to pursue political ideologies under the guise of their members interest, and lost badly.

The unions forgot to ask the British public if we would like to be governed by unelected socialists, Thatcher delivered our answer with an iron fist.
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Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:29 am

I believe an electorate does not need statistics to show something is wrong, we get a sense of what is going wrong in our daily lives, and it is this mood that our politicians pick up on and act upon.

Myself and many others felt long before the crash of 2008 that the spiraling private debt and house prices could not be sustained, it simply did not make any sense.

Everyone knew the invalidity benefit scheme was rife with long term malingerers, everyone knew there were jobs for a million Poles but yet we still had 1 million long term unemployed and everyone knew there were those claiming benefit who had other means of income.

The Labour govt ignored the mood of the country and now they are paying the price.

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Post by oftenwrong Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:31 am

Perhaps we should be pleased that the current unemployed total is ONLY Three Million Britons of working age. Tory policy is self-evidently to starve people into submission.

Nice.

http://www.hrmguide.co.uk/jobmarket/unemployment.htm
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Post by oftenwrong Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:38 am

"Everyone knew ...."

How fortunate we are to enjoy the benefit of such distilled wisdom. Watch out next for.... People are saying ..., and It's obvious that ...., There can be no doubt .... In today's Daily Mail ....
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Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:40 am

I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of British citizens do not care about the class struggle or right or left wing ideologies anymore, they want the basics of health, education and care for the disadvantaged.

The old right and left wings of politics are nearly a redundant force, almost an eccentric sideshow to the main event, the ideological battles have been fought and both the right and the left lost.
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Thatcher changed Britain for the worse - Page 11 Empty Re: Thatcher changed Britain for the worse

Post by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:44 am

Perhaps we should be pleased that the current unemployed total is ONLY Three Million Britons of working age. Tory policy is self-evidently to starve people into submission.

Which part of the developed world recession that has been with us for 5 years, do you not know about ?

Why do people think our local democracies can avoid the unemployment effect of economic downturns when they have already maxed out the credit card.


Last edited by Tosh on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thatcher changed Britain for the worse - Page 11 Empty Re: Thatcher changed Britain for the worse

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