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Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

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Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:23 am

First topic message reminder :

The Wall Street Crash in the USA in October 1929 affected the whole world, just as the recent credit crunch did. The American President, Herbert Hoover (Republican), had over-inflated the American economy by cutting the top rate of Income Tax from 73% to 24% (shades of Nigel Lawson’s 1988 Budget!), but he thought that “things would right themselves” and he did not support any government action.

How similar to the Tories, who, when they caused recessions in this country with their imbecile policies, said that “the recession must take its course”. More recently, Cameron and Osborne were clueless in 2008 as to how to react to the global crisis, contradicting themselves and each other over what was required, at one time advocating a “do nothing” approach, and another time advocating drastic cuts in spending while we were in recession..

Hoover’s “do nothing” approach led to unemployment in the USA reaching 13 million, with some people starving to death. Fortunately, the Americans voted in Franklin Roosevelt (Democrat) as President in 1932, whose ‘New Deal’ saw government action to help the distressed, to assist the recovery of the economy, and to reform industry and commerce. And it worked.

Britain was not so fortunate, since it had a Conservative-dominated government led by a Labour traitor. Unemployment pay was reduced by 10%, the ‘means test’ was introduced, teachers and civil servants had their salaries reduced by 15%. The government policy of spending less in times of slump (a mistake repeated by Thatcher in the 1980s and Cameron now) made matters worse, not better, since it deflated the economy still further. A recession turned into a depression. It was only when Britain began to re-arm in the face of Hitler’s behaviour, using money it had to borrow, that the economy began to grow again.

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling learned from the mistakes of the past and followed the policy of John Maynard Keynes, Britain’s greatest ever economist. He advocated government spending in a recession, with the debt being reduced when the economy was growing again. Thanks to Brown and Darling, what could have been a depression on the scale of the 1930s was kept to a recession which ended after eighteen months. The important thing now is to encourage further growth in the economy and to gradually reduce the debt with tight control and sensible cuts in public spending, but that’s not what we’re getting from Cameron's government.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by ROB on Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:16 pm

Stox 16 wrote:
I believe his work stands by itself.

Karl the Kept’s works stand by themselves as irrelevant museum pieces.

Stox 16 wrote:
Sorry to say but Karl Marx will out live Dr Gilbraith's view on this subject

Social scientists are partially evaluated on the accuracy of their predictions.

Karl the Kept predicted the demise of things which have outlived his flights of fantasy and fabrications of pseudo-economics and accompanying pseudo-political science.

Dr. John Kenneth Galbraith predicted the demise of the first nation founded upon Karl the Kept’s pseudo-economics and accompanying pseudo-political science; specifically, he predicted its demise twenty years after the West ceased directly opposing it militarily, even in proxy wars. The prediction was published in 1973, the year the US pulled out of Vietnam and by so doing ceased directly opposing that nation militarily; on 399 December 1991, that nation ceased to exist.

Karl the Kept predicted; the opposite came to pass. Dr. Galbraith predicted; his prediction came to pass.

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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:22 pm

So many words, so little conveyed.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by ROB on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:05 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
"So many words, so little conveyed."

From a review of The Communist Manifeto and Das Kapital.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by jackthelad on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:15 pm

Was Karl Marx the oldest of the Marx's brothers or was that Groucho.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:21 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:
"So many words, so little conveyed."

From a review of The Communist Manifeto and Das Kapital.

What a total bloody moron that reviewer was. He got some sort of prize, I take it.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:23 pm

Wonderful, though, how, ever since he wrote, the totally forgettable have been dismissing him. Where are they now?
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by ROB on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:50 pm

Penderyn wrote:
Wonderful, though, how, ever since he wrote, the totally forgettable have been dismissing him.   Where are they now?

Where is Karl the Kept now?
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:23 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Penderyn wrote:
Wonderful, though, how, ever since he wrote, the totally forgettable have been dismissing him. Where are they now?

Where is Karl the Kept now?

What is this 'Karl the Kept' crap? You think Marx should have wasted his life away getting rich, do you? Why would he want to do anything so half-witted? You think Engels should have spent his money on a big estate perhaps? Why, when he was an educated man? The people who accept this squalid mess of a system never cease to surprise me, like the tory nutters who used, when we were at the polling station, to suppose we'd agree with scumbags like them'. Come off it do!
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by ROB on Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:03 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Where is Karl the Kept now?
Penderyn wrote:
What is this 'Karl the Kept' c**p?

Karl the Kept was a kept man, living off someone else’s dime while penning works of pseudo-social science fantasy; thus, Karl the Kept.

Penderyn wrote:
Come off it do!

Come off what?
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:24 pm

Is it fair to equate talking in circles with walking in circles?
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:37 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Where is Karl the Kept now?
Penderyn wrote:
What is this 'Karl the Kept' c**p?

Karl the Kept was a kept man, living off someone else’s dime while penning works of pseudo-social science fantasy; thus, Karl the Kept.

Penderyn wrote:
Come off it do!

Come off what?

Talking through the wrong orifice and supposing major thinkers have to behave like Daily Mail readers' unattained ideal.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Shirina on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:27 pm

There's an informal logical fallacy called Hitler ad Nazium which centers around the idea of: Because an evil man did X or likes Y, then X and Y must be bad. This fallacy is frequently used by US conservatives who argue that because Hitler believed in certain socialist ideals (i.e. universal health care), those ideals must be bad. The reason why this is a fallacy is because Hitler was also very much against smoking, was a staunch animal rights activist, and loved the movie King Kong. I dare say we would never accuse a non-smoker, an animal rights activist or a fan of King Kong of being a Nazi on those points alone.

While Hitler is the most common person being compared with, the fallacy is still fallacious when used in conjunction with other people. An obvious one would be Barack Obamium whereby everything Obama does is wrong or incorrect. For example, if Obama does not attack Iran, he is being weak. If he does attack Iran, he is being a warmonger. The impetus behind this fallacy is to believe a person can be perfectly imperfect - that everything Hitler did was evil and that everything Obama does is the wrong choice.

In this particular case, the fallacy should be called Karl Marxium, since after 60 years of anti-communist, anti-socialist, anti-Marxism Cold War propaganda, we must believe that Karl Marx was wrong about everything.

This argument is equally as fallacious as the original Hitler ad Nazium.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:42 pm

People may have just got bored with blaming Satan for everything.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by keenobserver1 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:59 pm

Shirina wrote:There's an informal logical fallacy called Hitler ad Nazium which centers around the idea of: Because an evil man did X or likes Y, then X and Y must be bad. This fallacy is frequently used by US conservatives who argue that because Hitler believed in certain socialist ideals (i.e. universal health care), those ideals must be bad. The reason why this is a fallacy is because Hitler was also very much against smoking, was a staunch animal rights activist, and loved the movie King Kong. I dare say we would never accuse a non-smoker, an animal rights activist or a fan of King Kong of being a Nazi on those points alone.

While Hitler is the most common person being compared with, the fallacy is still fallacious when used in conjunction with other people. An obvious one would be Barack Obamium whereby everything Obama does is wrong or incorrect. For example, if Obama does not attack Iran, he is being weak. If he does attack Iran, he is being a warmonger. The impetus behind this fallacy is to believe a person can be perfectly imperfect - that everything Hitler did was evil and that everything Obama does is the wrong choice.

In this particular case, the fallacy should be called Karl Marxium, since after 60 years of anti-communist, anti-socialist, anti-Marxism Cold War propaganda, we must believe that Karl Marx was wrong about everything.

This argument is equally as fallacious as the original Hitler ad Nazium.

It could be perceived that you support the veiws of a certain someone from your post?
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Shirina on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:43 pm

It could be perceived that you support the veiws of a certain someone from your post?
I don't know if "support" is quite the right word, but that certain someone is definitely not 100% wrong. I can't dismiss what he has said merely on the basis that he was "kept."
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by witchfinder on Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:44 pm

I do not neccessarily believe that Karl Marx was correct, but he was right in believing that capitalism does not hold all the answers.

When I use the word "capitalism" I mean in its purest sense, undiluted and the type of free market system that most Conservatives of this world would be proud of and would so proudly subscribe to.

With the financial crisis, the credit crunch and the recession and its subsequent economic turmoil hit, a lot of people have come to the realization that the free market economy is not all what its cracked up to be.

More and more people have come to accept that capitalism has got to have restrictions, intervention, regulation and cannot be allowed to simply destroy people, their homes, their livelyhoods or business based on dog eat dog, survival of the fittest.

People everywhere are looking for capitalism with a social conscience, something more human instead of been based on greed.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by ROB on Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:38 pm


“My people”, ethnicities in my genetic/cultural background, include West Africans, Irish (possibly Scots-Irish, since there seems to be no lingering Roam Catholicism), Jewish, and Native American. All of these ethnicities have suffered racism and attempted economic deprivation in the United States of America. Perhaps because racism and economic deprivation is real in my life (for instance one ancestor known personally to me, when a child, regularly conversed with our ancestor who was a slave prior to emancipation.

That reality is too close for me to be comfortable with anything but real answers to real problems. Karl the Kept, while capable of beautifully phrased prose, provides no answers to real problems within his works of fantasy, two of which I’ve extreme familiarity.

The reality is that capitalism fuels every workable economy because capitalism is in harmony with man’s inherent nature. When I was a pre-ten and teen-aged entrepreneur, I worked for a profit; in order to realize a profit, I provided excellent service (door-to-door) and a superior product at competitive prices (my selling price was always dead-on with my major “big business” competitor). So, in the summertime, when my friends’ “lines were short”, they could depend on my dime twice a day at Sparta Park to get ‘em in the pool.

Communism views free enterprise as an anathema. That’s the name of that tune and the end of that story.

Nouns name a person, place, or thing, and adjectives modify the persons, places, or things named by nouns. Proper and appropriate use of socialist and capitalism is the key to what works in the real world.

Capitalism is the noun, and socialist is the adjective. Socialist capitalism recognizes that man (gender inclusive) must be free to seek profit, while government (inherently a socialist institution when properly instituted) must be diligent in insuring that capitalism is harnessed to the good of society. Modern vehicles (cars to Brits) are an example; when a relatively large socialist institution, the United States Government, enacted laws and regulations requiring all auto companies that do business in the United States have air bags, guess what the capitalist auto companies did?

Another aspect of the proper relationship is, like the pudding, in the tasting (I prefer butterscotch and chocolate, both in my pantry due to a number of capitalist enterprises). The US military budget, which allowed US Navy SEALs to kill a beast, is funded by a capitalist economy (here capitalist is the adjective). Imagine that; the US Navy (“home” of the SEALs)), perhaps the most extensive and possessed if more assets (money-wise) socialist institution on earth, is made possible by capitalism.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Shirina on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:03 am

Capitalism is doomed to failure. It won't be an explosive death like a recession or a collapse. Instead, it is a creeping death, one that will cause it to fail before anyone even realizes it has ... and we're already in the beginning phases of that death.

The reason why it will die is quite simple. Idiot simple, in fact. It will die because of constant escalating prices. The price of EVERYTHING is always going up. As prices increase, workers need pay increases, but as workers are paid more, businesses become less profitable. As businesses become less profitable, the fewer workers they can employ. The only solution is to simply keep wages stagnant, but when that happens, the people sink into relative poverty and civil unrest begins. In addition, impoverished people cannot buy goods and services which, in turn, hits businesses just as hard requiring even more layoffs and stagnant wages. Meanwhile, the prices keep going up ... and up ... and up. It has reached a point now that even America, with all of its wealth, cannot afford to maintain its own infrastructure.

A society is simply unsustainable if prices rise while wages do not. Yet in order to keep businesses profitable, that's exactly what must happen. Thus capitalism is on a cycle of self-destruction that cannot be avoided without sacrificing some of our economic liberties. The most notable of these liberties that would have to go is limitless wealth accumulation. This is the primary reason why most of the wealth is concentrated into the hands of a small minority. The second such liberty is unlimited profits - especially when wages are kept stagnant to maintain profits that are already enormous. A large percentage of profits not reinvested in the company itself needs to be given back to the workers in the form of increased wages. Perhaps most important of all, there would have to be government-enforced price caps. Prices cannot continue to soar into the stratosphere unhindered; there is supposed to be an equilibrium within economics, but today's entrepreneurs have thrown that concept right out the window.

Unless there are some Marxist ideas put into place, civilization as we know it is slowly committing suicide. We can kiss comfort goodbye - humanity will simply devolve back to the Law of the Jungle. You've seen Mad Max, right?
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by wyouser on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:59 pm

Shirina wrote:
It's not so much a matter of the 1930s repeating themselves as an attempt at re-assertion of the Feudal System.
And there you have it.
Ah, There we go, we can blame those doggone Romans for beginning the feudal
system as they attempted to do something about their 1930's type situation
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:10 pm

Veni, Vidi, Vici, and they should never have allowed common people a vote anyway.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:31 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
“ Are the 1930s repeating themselves?”

Having heard first-person accounts of the 1930s, no. During then1930s, high school and college (“university”) graduates couldn’t get jobs at the post office because lawyers (“solicitors” and “barristers”) already had ‘em. The only Black professions assured employment in 1930s Texas were teachers (earning perhaps 10% of pre-depression salaries), preachers (who got paid in chickens and dinner invitations), and undertakers (because people die even in a depression).

My uncle, a teacher (that’s how I know about the drastically reduced pay) offered to buy a foreclosed-upon property for a dime on the dollar. The banker laughed him out of his office. Less than six months later, the banker called my uncle and offered to sell the property at that dime on the dollar price. My uncle refused and offered to buy at a nickel on the dollar. He got the property. Although he was barely earning a nickel, at least he had a job and was earning something.

you know my father in England was driven by the utter fear of a return to the 1930s in England Rock. The US had a cold in my old mans words and we had the Flu. ha ha it was very bad both sides of the pond
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Scarecrow on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:28 pm

This is the answer to why the world depressions take place , just as why wars take place.

The Rothschild Formula may be briefly summarized as follows:

1. War is the ultimate discipline to any government. If it can successfully meet the challenge of war, it will survive. If it cannot, it will perish. All else is secondary. The sanctity of its laws, the prosperity of its citizens and the solvency of its treasury will be quickly sacrificed by any government in its primal act of self-survival.
2. All that is necessary, therefore, to insure that a government will maintain or expand its debt is to involve it in war or the threat of war. The greater the threat and the more destructive the war, the greater the need for debt.
3. To involve a country in war or the threat of war, it will be necessary for it to have enemies with credible military might. If such enemies already exist, all the better. If they exist but lack military strength, it will be necessary to provide them the money to build their war machine. If an enemy does not exist at all, then it will be necessary to create one by financing the rise of a hostile regime.
4. The ultimate obstacle is a government which declines to finance its wars through debt. Although this seldom happens, when it does, it will be necessary to encourage internal political opposition, insurrection or revolution to replace that government with one that is more compliant to our will. The assassination of heads of state could play an important role in this process.
5. No nation can be allowed to remain militarily stronger than its adversaries, for that could lead to peace and a reduction of debt. To accomplish this balance of power, it may be necessary to finance both sides of the conflict. Unless one of the combatants is hostile to our interests and therefore, must be destroyed, neither side should be allowed a decisive victory or defeat. While we must always proclaim the virtues of peace, the unspoken objective is perpetual war.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:26 pm

That deals well enough with the conspiracy theory of History, but my preference is for the cockup view of Politics. Governments are inevitably just another Committee, and we know from experience that committees have to be always DOING something, to justify their existence. Sometimes they just get bored and start a War, to show people that they cannot be ignored.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by bobby on Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:30 am

oftenwrong wrote :Sometimes they just get bored and start a War, to show people that they cannot be ignored.

And we have a prime example of that in Benito Mussolini in his cowardly wars against Abyssinia and Libya. He gained Power in 1922, and sorted out the vast majority of Italy’s ills. After most of the hard work had been done, this man who ran on Vanity felt the people would turn on him, unless he was seen to be achieving, so he took Italy to war against people he knew he could beat, and also to gain an Empire to show Hitler he was his equal.

None of it worked out as he planned.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:12 pm

Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

There is one sense in which someone capable of fast-forwarding 75 years would find things familiar. The "Toffs" have regained their self-confidence. Ostentatious display of wealth was unacceptable from WW2 until Thatcher encouraged City Spivs to wear red braces while driving their Porsches. Latterly London is full of Oil Sheiks and Oligarchs, and the home-grown varieties no longer feel diffident about having a Town House and a Place in the Country as well as wintering in the Caribbean.

"Class" is no longer something to deny.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by ROB on Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:05 am


In the 1930s, a teacher whose salary had been cut in half and then cut in half again bought a pretty decent house for five cents on the dollar. That's depression, something I've never seen.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Shirina on Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:47 pm

There is one difference between 1930 and the present day.

In the years following the depression, America turned to progressivism, and the people knew precisely who was at fault, mainly Big Business. This is one of the main reasons why the American people were reluctant to get involved in WWII. They believed that their involvement in WWI had been the result of pressure from defense contractors who were looking for a big profit. However, as a result of embracing progressivism, we now have Social Security, minimum wage laws, Medicare, Medicaid, and other social programs that kept our most vulnerable from living in abject poverty. No longer was being poor considered a result of a "lack of moral virtue."

Today, however, Americans are turning more toward fascism and ultra right-wing views. Instead of putting the blame on Wall Street where it belongs, the Great Recession is being blamed on progressivism, the poor, and the government. Now our social programs are constantly under attack. It's as if we learned nothing.

I once saw a sign that read: "Conservatism: The rich telling the middle class to blame the poor."
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Ivan on Mon May 13, 2013 9:48 pm

UKIP And The Warning From History

by Tash Bailey

(I have permission from the author of this article to reproduce it in full here:-
Tash Bailey ‏@Tashski1
@ivanwhite48 you go ahead Ivan that's fine. Thank you!)


Recently council elections were held across England and Wales and the main talking point in the British media has been the rise of UKIP who won 147 seats, a gain of 139 (statistics taken from BBC News). From everything I have read so far in various media outlets about the increase in votes for UKIP the general consensus seems to be that it is a protest vote against the three main political parties and there’s an attraction to UKIP due to their stance on the EU and immigration. However, in this post I wanted to make the point that voting for UKIP comes with a massive warning label, a warning that comes from history.

In the 1920s and 1930s there was a rise in the amount of extremist political parties; both on the left and right. In the UK the Communist Party of Great Britain was founded (1920) and later in 1932 the British Union of Fascists was started up by Oswald Moseley. In mainland Europe Italy fell under Fascist rule in 1922, the Russian monarchy was overthrown in 1917 by a Communist revolution, the Nazis went from being a marginal party in the 1920s to being the sole party in Germany in the 1930s, the Socialist government in Spain was embroiled in a civil war (1936-39) and was eventually defeated by Franco who turned Spain into a right wing dictatorship. This rise can be attributed to many factors but largely, in my opinion, to economic depression. In times of economic struggle the general population want answers to their problems and potentially someone to blame. Germany for example, was in the process of economic recovery in the late 1920s (largely thanks to the work of Foreign Minister, Gustav Streseman) until the Wall Street Crash in 1929. After this your life savings wouldn’t have bought you jar of coffee in Germany, this almost certainly helped the Nazis who offered up a scapegoat: the Jews (and other various groups such as Communists) because they had “stabbed Germany in the back” by signing the detested Treaty of Versailles. They offered not only a scapegoat but they promised the people things that they desperately wanted such as jobs, food and undoing the Treaty and they did so without saying how they’d provide these things. The rise of the Nazis can be shown by the following election statistics:

1928 – 800,000 votes
- won 12/491 seats in the Reichstag
1930 – 6.5 million votes
- 107 seats
1932 – 14 million votes
- 230 seats
1933 – 17 million votes
(statistics taken from The History of World War II, volume 1 by Orbis Publications)

The 1933 elections were held after the Reichstag was burnt down by a Dutch Communist and as a result a wave of anti-Communist sentiment swept Germany (with help of Nazi rhetoric). As they say: the rest is history.

So how is this relevant to the rise of UKIP today? UKIP’s two main policies are to break away from the European Union and to stop the immigration of foreigners to the UK. It is the latter of those two policies that is relevant. We are currently in an economic depression much like Europe was in the early 1930s, and like the Nazis UKIP have blamed a minority group for the problems facing the country. Their argument centres around the belief that immigrants have flooded the country taking jobs from British people as well as homes. This is taken from UKIP’s website: “The tide of mass EU immigration has pushed down wages and restricted job opportunities. Only by leaving the EU can we regain control of our borders.” In essence they are arguing that the only reason for low wages are because of the influx of immigrants from Europe. However, in areas such as Cornwall where there are low levels of immigrants living wages are some of the lowest in the country. Cornwall County Council reports that “…the 2009 average (median) full time gross annual earnings were £20,982, below the South West and GB average.” It further reports that “According to the 2009 estimates the ethnic profile of Cornwall shows 4.2% of the population were from mixed, Asian, black or Chinese groups.” So in Cornwall the low wages cannot be attributed to the influx of foreigners.

Whilst it is fair to say that UKIP isn’t outright racist (although some of its members certainly hold racist views) it does inhibit the characteristics of intolerance similar to the early days of the Nazi Party where it blames a minority group for the problems. By giving the general population an answer to why there has been an economic depression they have gained support because the reality is that the people want answers even if they aren’t quite correct. Joseph Goebbels, head of the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda in Nazi Germany once remarked "the bigger the lie, the more people believe it". Moreover, the Nazis vowed to “make Germany great again” by improving the armed forces which the Treaty of Versailles severely weakened thus increasing defence spending in a time of economic trouble compare this to UKIP who say this on their website: “The State must defend its peoples. Keep our nuclear deterrent and make increased defence spending a clear priority, even in these difficult times, to underpin Britain’s global role.” So they want to increase wages and reduce the deficit yet they also want to increase defence spending even in tough economic times? This simply does not make sense. Unless you are going to use the improved defence not to merely defend the country from attack but to wage war and therefore move into a wartime economy, which is what effectively happened in Germany under the Nazis.

The issue with UKIP is that they are serving up a scapegoat in the EU and immigration levels like the Nazis served up the Jews and Communists. Intolerance only leads to hate and hate leads to extreme measures. It is not a case of being patriotic because being a patriot does not mean you have to be intolerant of people from other nations. UKIP say that “Our traditional values have been undermined. Children are taught to be ashamed of our past. Multiculturalism has split our society.” They say this without laying out exactly what these supposed traditional values are – Britain has been for centuries a haven of multiculturalism, even Mr. Farage himself has French heritage! As for children being taught to be ashamed of our past it is outright ridiculous. Nowhere in the history curriculum for schools does it teach children that we should be ashamed. Children are taught a wide range of history from around the world and in Years 7, 8 and 9 they are taught a significant amount about Britain (1066, Tudors, Stuarts etc). Yes they are taught about slavery but to gloss over it or ignore it completely would be wrong and no different to what the Nazis did when they edited the curriculum to suit their ideological aims.

I did not want this piece to turn into a history essay or lesson and am the first one to admit that in the second paragraph some of what I have said is very simplified. I am also aware I have only focussed on one of UKIP’s policies but it is one of their main (and for many, one of their most attractive policies). My intention was not to blow apart each and every one of their policies but to highlight the glaring similarities between them and that of the rise of the Nazis. The argument I am making here is that in an economic depression naturally there is a swing to the extremes of politics and UKIP, like the Nazis did successfully, are trying to exploit this by offering up a scapegoat. I’m not saying that if we end up with a UKIP government that they will end up committing a modern day holocaust but if they achieve their aims of taking us out of the EU there will be nothing in place to stop them eroding away workers rights and waging an all out war on non British people. There’s a stark warning from history to people who have switched to UKIP of what right-wing extremism achieves and the result is never pretty.

References:
BBC News Website
Cornwall County Council Website
UKIP.org
The History of World War II, volume 1 (an Orbis publications book)

http://tashb.wordpress.com/
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon May 13, 2013 10:28 pm

In difficult times for a Nation, some worms will always crawl out of the woodwork to test the prevailing climate of opinion.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by tlttf on Tue May 14, 2013 6:22 am

A well written piece Ivan. Unfortunately it has no bearing on modern reality. Consider that a governments first priority is to defend the nation then to have a robust defence makes sense, simply use the overseas aid budget to pay for it. If a government sets a minimum wage and then not only doesn't it enforce it but opens the immigration door to allow the wage to be undercut and then subsidises those that are struggling with credits (in all forms), then you end up with a compliant obedient robot totally reliant on the state to make ends meet. You then dumb down education so that people don't aspire to push higher up the ladder. Together this makes a downfall a reality for all and the forming of a government class (between upper and middle) whose first priority is to ensure their own survival regardless. Bring on UKIP, bring on independents and knock the present system down while we are still able to.

It's a shame the author didn't go to Birmingham or Oldham for the average wage stat's and the effect of immigration on the population?

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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Ivan on Tue May 14, 2013 5:38 pm

tlttf. I suppose it’s reassuring to see that you’ve missed the point once again. Look at the title of the thread and it might give you a clue. Although history doesn’t repeat itself in precise detail, similar situations when similarly handled often lead to similar results. If Hitler had read what happened when Napoleon invaded Russia in 1812, he might not have repeated those catastrophic errors in 1941.

Another lesson is that periods of prolonged economic hardship can cause a dangerous number of people to turn to political extremes and to look for scapegoats (though that’s standard policy of those on the right). When the Germans turned to Hitler in the 1930s, those in the UK with the mentality of UKIP-supporting morons today turned to Oswald Mosley. If these right-wing lunatics are allowed to get a foothold, who knows where it will end up? Break up the EU, witness a rise in nationalism, and maybe we’ll have another war in Europe.

Tash Bailey’s article has more bearing on reality than the tripe you spout about UKIP and independent candidates. UKIP wants to spend billions more on defence and on doubling the prison population, at the same time as reducing the top rate of tax from 45% to 31%. That’s Alice in Wonderland economics. Overseas aid isn’t charity, it usually comes with a condition that it has to be spent on British products.

UKIP is a tinpot party and most people would struggle to name five of its members. The media is giving it much more publicity than it deserves for a party with no MPs, no councils and 3% of the vote in the last general election, but then Farage has been creeping around Murdoch. There’s nothing new about UKIP, just tired old right-wing Tory policies repackaged by yet another public school toff. It has attracted racists from the BNP and EDL because of its scaremongering about immigrants. Farage hobnobs with some very unsavoury people in the EU Parliament, when he can be bothered to turn up (he likes to claim the expenses though).

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence

I can’t believe you’re stupid enough to still be promoting so-called ‘independent’ candidates, especially after the story which broke about a Cornish fascist over the weekend:-

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/05/colin-brewer-there-is-a-good-argument-for-killing-some-disabled-babies/

Think it through for once, you don’t know what the hell you’re getting if you vote for someone who calls themselves independent. It usually just means that they haven’t got the guts to say where they stand on the political spectrum. Maybe when you write something for us that is as intelligent and well-researched as Tash’s article, you might be taken more seriously, but I won’t hold my breath.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by boatlady on Tue May 14, 2013 6:03 pm

Ivan,
I was surprised today to hear one of my colleagues at CAB (not in general a very socialist lot) making that same point about the parallels between current events and those in Germany in the '30's - so maybe it isn't socialist paranoia like what some would like to tell us.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 14, 2013 10:38 pm

Once embarked upon a decision to separate ourselves from Europe, it requires only one further step towards the Right to embrace fascist principles in order to differentiate Britain from those Continentals.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Ivan on Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:10 am

Are we living through another 1930s?

From an article by Paul Mason:-

"Things are happening with machine-gun rapidity: Brexit, the Turkish coup, Islamist massacres in France, the surrounding of Aleppo, the nomination of Donald Trump. From the USA to France to post-Brexit Britain, the high levels of public racism and xenophobia, reflected now in the outpourings of politicians with double-digit poll ratings, have got people asking: is it a rerun of the 1930s?

On the face of it, the similarities are real. Britain’s vote to leave the EU parallels its panicked decision to quit the gold standard in September 1931 – the first major country to quit the global economic system. Labour’s incipient split mirrors the one that left the party out of power for 14 years. And of course the economic background – a depression and a banking crisis – has echoes in the present situation.
"

For the rest of the article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/01/are-we-living-through-another-1930s-paul-mason
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by boatlady on Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:35 am

The worst thing about the present – and millions of people feel it – is the momentum towards catharsis. It is impossible to imagine everything dying back to a boring stasis.


Feels like the perfect storm
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:56 pm

Well, Are the 1930s repeating themselves? Only in the sense that they continue the theme of worker exploitation begun long ago in the fields and translated into Cities by the Industrial Revolution.

Relatively recent acts of a vicious Tory administration have reduced unemployment figures by the creation of what can only be described as shit jobs - zero-hours contracts, pseudo self-employment of delivery drivers and the like to avoid minimum-wage legislation, and a simplistic return to Victorian practices in the workplace.

However, Hilary Osborne and Sarah Butler writing in The Guardian today point out; "The use of social media has taken employers by surprise. In the cases of Deliveroo and parcel firm Hermes, workers have used closed social media to exchange information, and messages about the Protests were spread on open pages in Facebook and on Twitter."

The article concludes, "It remains uncertain whether traditional Unions are ready and able to take part."

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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Ivan on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:47 pm

In 1939, I didn’t hear war coming. Now its thundering approach can’t be ignored

From an article by Harry Leslie Smith:-

"A chill of remembrance has come over me during this August month. It feels as if the 2017 summer breeze is being scattered by the winds of war blowing from across our world towards Britain, just like they were in 1939.

In the Middle East, Saudi Arabia eviscerates Yemen with the same ferocity as Mussolini did to Ethiopia when I was child in 1935. The hypocrisy of Britain’s government and elite class ensures that innocent blood still flows in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Theresa May’s government insists that peace can only be achieved through the proliferation of weapons of war in conflict zones. Venezuela teeters towards anarchy and foreign intervention while in the Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte – protected by his alliance with Britain and the US – murders the vulnerable for the crime of trying to escape their poverty through drug addiction.

Because I am old, now 94, I recognise these omens of doom. Chilling signs are everywhere, perhaps the biggest being that the US allows itself to be led by Donald Trump, a man deficient in honour, wisdom and just simple human kindness. It is as foolish for Americans to believe that their generals will save them from Trump as it was for liberal Germans to believe the military would protect the nation from Hitler’s excesses.
"

Read on:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/14/1939-second-world-war-fascist-thundering-approach-hitler
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:06 pm

As Financiers are obliged by Law to say:  "The past is no guide to the future."

"Brinkmanship" was the word applied to the Cuba missile Crisis, but the facts are that no Atomic Bomb has been dropped since 1945.  Nobody could be that stupid.  Could they?

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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by Ivan on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:10 pm

As Financiers are obliged by Law to say: "The past is no guide to the future."
As historians will tell you, similar situations similarly handled can lead to similar results.

In the 1930s, we saw the rise of dictators, in particular Hitler, Stalin and Franco. We seem to have a resurgence of that phenomenon with Putin, Erdoğan, Duterte and now it seems Maduro. Mrs May called an unnecessary election hoping to achieve a landslide majority so that she could crush the opposition. And then there's Trump, who now seems to be using military personnel to prop up his chaotic regime. Just as Hitler first achieved power by democratic means, so have all the tyrants (and would-be ones) listed above.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:27 pm

Clearly, for most British people their concern is for the narrower political scene in Britain - which is still governed by our preoccupation with Class.

Events in Edwardian England are still relevant today, not least the suffragette movement which at the time was the closest we have ever been to a true Revolution. 1909 saw the biggest effort yet to prevent Lords from stifling Commons moves towards equality. Unfortunately the impetus of Lloyd George's attempts to make life easier for the poor was blunted by the 1914-1918 War.

It's not only Charity that begins at home. Britain does desperately need to become more self-sufficient.
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Re: Are the 1930s repeating themselves?

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