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Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

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Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:52 pm

"Hard-working" Tories resent providing cheap houses for oiks. Simple.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by biglin on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:53 pm

No, council tenants enjoy a privileged lifestyle at the expense of people who have to pay for their homes and get NO help from the council or government in return.

Anyone who genuinely believes in fairness can't support council housing.

Only those who favour keeping the class system going do that!

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by boatlady on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Interesting comments biglin - still not really getting your drift - have you ever lived in Local Authority housing, or is this just based on prejudice??

Personally, I have no axe to grind here - I live in my own home - bought and paid for- but I've never seen Local Authority housing as 'privileged'
I really hope you will develop your thesis
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by astradt1 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:06 pm

Do the old fashioned social classes still exist?

Would it now be better to classify people according to their earnings?

All parties seem to be talking about the 'Squeezed Middle Class' when they really mean the 'Squeezed Middle Income Earners'..

If you look at the current High Earners would you class them as upper class?

After all most of them are Celebrities and Sports Personalities.....
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:52 pm

Totally agree, astradt1. The previous hierarchy based on birth is slowly being desplaced by a meritocracy, as espoused by the likes of Ayn Rand 70 years ago.

The problem remains however, that some of the people thereby raised in status include some rather unpleasant individuals, so little really changes.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by boatlady on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:59 pm

Good point there - I've found, when people are talking about 'class' it's not really at all clear what they mean.

I tend to define 'working class' as living on your earnings, without any other form of income - but that covers a large income range - all the way from someone on JSA (£71.70 p.w.) up through 30 hour week on minimum wage, white collar occupations that can pay really quite generous incomes, to bankers footballers and the like, whose earnings can finance several homes and a millionaire lifestyle. That's a bit vague, and not really helpful when you're trying to draw general principles.

I think classifying people by the amount of earnings makes sense - although I might want to take issue with calling the current situation a 'meritocracy' - not sure where 'merit' comes in if you've been fortunate enough to be sent to the right schools and to benefit from the old boys' network in order to land a plum job
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:24 pm

Snobbism is still alive and well. Newspaper commentators are fond of denigrating some "Personality" or "Sportsman" by expressing surprise that they earn more than the Prime Minister.

The explanation is usually that the "sleb" is being paid for possessing some unique skill - whether it is by being entertaining or scoring lots of goals.

Placed alongside those who only shuffle money around the City for fun and profit, I know who I judge to be the more worthy.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by astradt1 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:07 pm

OW, I think you will find that the 'media' only expresses 'shock/horror' at the amount a 'sleb' earning more than the PM only when they work for public bodies like the BBC, similarly if they work in public services such as the CEO of local councils and the NHS......
 
What they tend to forget is that the PM has all of his ministers and the Civil service to cover his ass.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:51 pm

They must have a slight difficulty establishing which way his ass is actually pointing after so many U-turns.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by biglin on Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:20 pm

boatlady wrote:Interesting comments biglin - still not really getting your drift - have you ever lived in Local Authority housing, or is this just based on prejudice??

Personally, I have no axe to grind here - I live in my own home - bought and paid for- but I've never seen Local Authority housing as 'privileged'
I really hope you will develop your thesis

I'm used to people not getting my drift - on here I suspect I'm considered far right while on the two right-wing boards I belong to I'm considered far left.

Actually I'm neither but that's not important.

To your first question - yes I have lived on the council.

As for why it's privileged I'll write a longer post on that subject but probably tomorrow or the day after.

But a few quick thoughts - it's given to you for life and you can pass it on to your kids; you can live there rent-free and live off benefits for generations; your maintenance is done free; even pest control is done free.

And that's just for starters; the ways in which it is privileged go on and one!


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by boatlady on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:20 am

I look forward to your more developed thoughts on this topic - so far you seem to be voicing mere prejudice and stereotypes - which is what it usually sounds like when any of us try to comment briefly on a complex topic.

Perhaps later you will have some more considered thoughts
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:13 pm

boatlady wrote:I look forward to your more developed thoughts on this topic - so far you seem to be voicing mere prejudice and stereotypes - which is what it usually sounds like when any of us try to comment briefly on a complex topic.

Perhaps later you will have some more considered thoughts
I doubt that very, very much. Insane prejudice is rarely cured.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:48 pm

Penderyn wrote:-
Insane prejudice is rarely cured.
I agree. I notice there was no mention of the fact that council tenants pay rent for the rest of their lives, and can't make money if they choose to downsize, whereas homeowners with mortgages usually pay them off before they reach retirement.

The myth about council tenants used to be that they all kept coal in their baths. Thatcher put paid to that one, by ensuring that there wasn't any coal.  Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Dan Fante on Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:13 pm

I agree with some of the things Biglin says in relation to the 'perks', as it were, of council housing (I've spent some time working for a local council and have experience of dealing with tenants) although I don't go along with the notion they've put forward that

Anyone who genuinely believes in fairness can't support council housing.

Only those who favour keeping the class system going do that!

since a lack of publicly owned social housing is much more a problem concerning those issues, I feel.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:41 pm

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but general whingeing is not the same as a reasoned argument.  The provision of adequate housing seems to have defeated successive British politicans, and the baleful might conclude that it suits various people to have a permanent shortage which maintains the value of your investment, if nothing else.  Rising house-prices are greeted with satisfaction as though that were some kind of wealth-creation, rather than a book-keeping exercise.
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Tory class war

Post by Penderyn on Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:50 pm

I was half-listening to a broadcast yesterday about how working-class students are treated in those universities where public-school dominance is greatest, the places where they have 'chav parties' and such.   It is interesting how the all-out Tory attack on those they prevent from working, make sick, fail to educate and so on is being taken up by their scummy pups.    People went through this vomit in the 'twenties and 'thirties of the last century, and they were accused in the 'forties and 'fifties of not treating the scumbags with love and kisses.   Let's always remember what these creatures are doing to ordinary people now!
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by boatlady on Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:16 pm

We live in a deeply divided society, where those who have enough don't even acknowledge the humanity of those without wealth or power
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:29 pm

And talking of the concept of 'different classes', what do we make of the Maria Miller episode?

Can you imagine what the Tory apologists would be saying if it were a Labour Minister who was clinging to power despite having been apparently found with their fingers in the till and allowed to pay back only a tiny percentage of their 'error of judgement'.

A different view by - and to the benefit of - members of a different class?  When it comes to hypocrisy those Tory vermin have no equals...
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:23 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:-
…..what do we make of the Maria Miller episode?
Maybe here:-
http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t158p1040-is-this-another-tory-scandal-brewing
 
But before you change threads, enjoy a good book and a film:-
 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkUC8NwCIAAbm8J.jpg
 
What are we going to do about Maria?  Shocked 
 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkUmQLUCAAAFREu.jpg
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:44 pm

Many of us can remember a similar period near the end of the John Major government in the mid-1990s, when almost every day brought revelations of cash in brown envelopes, sexual peccadilloes, general incompetence, a divided cabinet and sleaze.

It's what the Tories do when they are in office, and they're at it again. Last time, there was a landslide victory for Labour under Tony Blair in 1977, so what might the voters decide in 2015?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:40 pm

It makes me think OW they must have to wait until there is a Tory gov't so they can get away with the mischief they want to get up too, whether its sexual scandal or taking money for questions or as Maria Miller has done over claimed her expences or progressive maths.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by astradt1 on Mon May 26, 2014 11:25 am

Boris Johnson: Eurosceptic success due to 'peasants' revolt'

Boris Johnson has described Ukip voters as peasants in revolt after Eurosceptic parties swept to victory across the union.

The London mayor painted a scene of "pitchfork-wielding populists" converging on Brussels "drunk on local hooch and chanting nationalist slogans and preparing to give the federalist machinery a good old kicking with their authentically folkloric clogs".

Writing in the Telegraph, he compared Eurosceptic parties, including Ukip, Dutch rightwing firebrands and Greek anti-capitalists, to people taking part in "a kind of peasants' revolt" or a "jacquerie" – a bloody uprising against the French nobility in 1358.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/boris-johnson-eurosceptic-success-peasants-revolt-european-elections


So according to Boris, those who have rejected Tory leadership are not really plebs they are peasants.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by keenobserver1 on Mon May 26, 2014 4:52 pm

It is a reasonable assumption to compare UKIP voters with peasant's revolting.....who else could the disaffected vote for this time round, there is no faith left in the traditional party of the of the protest vote(those who shouldn't be named).

Even in Scotland UKIP have gained a seat due to the "Punch and Judy Show" that surrounds the independence vote.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Mon May 26, 2014 7:01 pm

who else could the disaffected vote for this time round
Green Party? No chance of that, of course. Their leader hasn't been invited on to 'BBC Question Time' on 27 occasions like Farage - and given the oxygen of publicity on many, many other occasions.
 
I hope that one day we'll find out why the BBC requirement for impartiality went out of the window as soon as this vile government came to power. Why the blackout on the passage of the NHS Act of 2012? Why no mention of protests outside Tory conferences? Why is it spun as a failure when Labour gains 291 councillors one year and over 330 the next? Is there a plan to discredit the BBC to soften it up for privatisation? Or have the Tories already handed it over to Murdoch on the quiet?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 28, 2014 2:27 pm

Ivan. all of this just reminds me of the heady days of the rise of the SDP. as back then the TV media was totally obsessed with them.. just like they are today with UKIP. i myself find all of this media frenzy over UKIP as mesmerizing as a fridge magnet myself.. nor do i find seeing the UK media run around like some frenetic stubbly haemorrhoids every time Farage turns up too talk to them very entertaining or engaging for that matter.. as the last time i watch him he remind me of some sort of embalming experiment that had gone wrong.. however, i did think the beer looked more interesting.. so not all was lost Ivan
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:19 pm

A few months ago, Grant Shapps announced that the Tories are now the party of the working class. When you’ve stop laughing, just recall how in the last four years they’ve introduced non-refundable employment tribunal fees of £1,200, removed legal aid for all employment cases except discrimination, reduced the amount of time employers need to consult on collective redundancies from 90 days to 45 days, and tried to introduce no fault dismissal legislation only for it to be blocked by Vince Cable.

Source:-
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/02/the-tories-as-the-workers-party-not-as-ridiculous-as-it-sounds/

If you have any doubt as to whom the Tories represent, I suggest you read the two articles below.

You can tell the nature of the Tory Party by the company it keeps

by Will Hutton:-

"Is the Tory Party becoming the vehicle for a rootless, amoral global financial community with little loyalty to country – or even to great business? I ask, in part, because of the character of the guest list at their parties. Last year, the venue for the Tory summer fundraising dinner was the old Billingsgate fish market, this year a grand private members' club. Russian property developers, a Greek shipping tycoon, an Iranian investment banker, a Slovenian private equity magnate, Bermudan and Dubai-based financiers mingled with a medley of their British counterparts and stars of the Tory Party. Guests worth together a cool £11bn were gathered to be tapped for cash, a skill at which the party has become a dab hand.

What is striking about the invitation lists for both the Billingsgate and Hurlingham events is who is not on them. Mainstream business and finance were conspicuous by their absence. The big money guests are people from the darker side of global capitalism, using the leverage available in the shadow banking system over the last two decades to make fortunes in property and private equity.

I could spot no great innovators or business builders.This is a party on its way to becoming a multinational libertarian sect, whose preoccupations are no longer those either of much of its electorate or of the business community."


For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/05/david-cameron-tories-summer-ball-dark-side-global-capitalism

There’s a nasty smell in the political air – and it’s coming from the Tories

by Yasmin Alibhai Brown:-

"All political parties behave nefariously. Power is a terrible corrupter. But the most dishonourable, sleazy politicians today are the Tories.

Coulson went to prison for phone hacking. Cameron brought him into government and said it was to give him a second chance - a priestly act of forgiveness for doing bad stuff, which incidentally had not been proven at the time. It was a bad lie. We all know the ex-editor of the News of the World was sought out because he was master of the dark arts.

After Coulson was convicted and sentenced, the PM brushed off his connivance as if it was a speck of dust on his bespoke suit. He was busy, had social gatherings of high importance to attend to. Those handing over piles want to be assured of the lowest taxes, and minimal, ineffective regulations. They are buying binding promises and are prepared to pay big money for them. Some are rather keen on power-sharing too - perhaps getting on to key quangos and into positions which give them control in public service sectors.

We never get to see the shy, veiled backers or get full disclosure on the sly schemes which allow donations to be made to the Tories without scrutiny. We know how much the trade unions give the Labour Party but are not allowed to know how much the Tories get from their tribesmen. Toffs don’t have to be open, don’t explain. Plebs must do both."


For the whole article:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/theres-a-nasty-smell-in-the-political-air--and-its-coming-from-the-tories-9587998.html
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:00 pm

keenobserver1 wrote:It is a reasonable assumption to compare UKIP voters with peasant's revolting.....who else could the disaffected vote for this time round, there is no faith left in the traditional party of the of the protest vote(those who shouldn't be named).

Even in Scotland UKIP have gained a seat due to the "Punch and Judy Show" that surrounds the independence vote.

Do not get your hopes up keenobserver, Ukip is nowt but a second hand Tory and there is more Panda's in Edinburough Zoo than Tory MPs in the Scottish Parliament or in the House of Commons representing Scotland.. So by the time the next general election comes around in May 2015 the Scots will have come to there senses and Ukip will get the biggest body swerve ever seen, just like any where else there are people in Scotland that want out of the EU and of course Salmond wants Scotland in the EU if there is a Yes vote on the 18th September 2014.

So that tells you how Scots may vote in the Independence referendum, the farmers of Scotland would lose there subsidies so there is another set of people that will not be voting Yes on the 18th Septembe, so Scots will work out just what Ukip stand for and according to there 2010 Manifesto that was 31p top rate of tax and you must of seen the kick up in the UK when the Tories lowered that from 50p to 45p plus they also said they wanted to fully privatize OUR NHS with those two policies I can not see them getting many votes here in Scotland, not unless there more like the Tories than I thought and can tell Barefaced Lies to the voting public just like the Tories and Fib-Dems did to them on the run up to the 2010 general election, but let me send out a warning the people of the UK had the wool pulled over there eyes and I doubt if any political party will be able to do that again. cheers 
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:27 pm

Care for us! True, indeed! They ne'er cared for us yet: suffer us to famish, and their storehouses crammed with grain; make edicts for usury, to support usurers; repeal daily any wholesome act established against the rich, and provide more piercing statutes daily to chain up and restrain the poor. If the wars eat us not up, they will; and there's all the love they bear us.”

William Shakespeare, ‘Coriolanus’, Act 1, Scene 1
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:58 pm

After five years of grinding the faces of the Poor by this Tory-led coalition, is it possible that at least some of the Poor will stop blindly voting for "their betters". (God Bless you, Sir, and sorry to have troubled you I'm sure Sir. Please to put a penny in the old man's hat.)
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:28 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:And talking of the concept of 'different classes', what do we make of the Maria Miller episode?

Can you imagine what the Tory apologists would be saying if it were a Labour Minister who was clinging to power despite having been apparently found with their fingers in the till and allowed to pay back only a tiny percentage of their 'error of judgement'.

A different view by - and to the benefit of - members of a different class?  When it comes to hypocrisy those Tory vermin have no equals...

This just proves what people have been saying PH, one law for them and another for the rest of us I just wonder how they will feel when the shoe is on the other foot after May 2015.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:36 pm

One sentence sticks in my mind all through the last posts,
"when it comes to hypocrisy those tory vermin have no equals"
I really do hope the boot is on the other foot after may 2015.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:06 pm

I do not know if any of you are up to date with recent LIES that Cameron is spouting but he is asking for trouble he will not be able to handle, he has said the vow he and the other leaders made to the Scottish people if they voted NO last week he is tying it to the fact that Scottish MPs should not vote on English matters leaving Ed Miliband and the Labour party without a majority so he would be unable to repeal the Tory nasty bills NHS is the one bill that Cameron does not want the Labour party to be able to repeal.

So it looks like England could end up with another 5 years of a Tory gov't all thanks to Alec Salmond and his partener in crime Cameron.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by keenobserver1 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:27 pm

Was it not Tam Dalyell that originally asked the West Lothian question in 1977?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:14 pm

Yes, it was, KO1. Why do you think it is that no less than EIGHT successive administrations have ignored the matter until now?

Going about my lawful occasions today, I saw an example to perhaps explain why the Tories are able to attract support from the very people they seek to exploit. A prestige model BMW had a set of ladders attached to its roof-rack. Did that help the driver identify with the working class?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by keenobserver1 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:34 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Yes, it was, KO1.  Why do you think it is that no less than EIGHT successive administrations have ignored the matter until now?

And like all things natural, if you leave it alone for long enough it eventually fixes itself......although politics isn't really natural. headbang
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:54 am

Living in council property is certainly no perk or privilege I can assure you, starting with the nice bit of the noisiest neighbor's also scruffiest throw things out of their window into your garden.
Get drunk every week-end and throw up outside your gate or on the pathway,then you have a front door that use to let the rain in that you complained about for 4years until you got a new one after 2 new carpets.
Icould go on about my needing a new kitchen when the tenant upstairs was drunk and forgot to turn his taps off and flooded my kitchen taking out the ceiling and a wall too!! and how long it took to repair!!
life's grand as a council tenant is it not?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:50 pm

Did you know that posh kids brought up on large estates are more prone to join extremist groups and wreck people's property?   Shocked


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:07 pm

"The Class War" hasn't gone away, the Winners have simply put greater distance between themselves and The Rest.

The New Politics of Class
(The Political Exclusion of the Working Class)
Geoffrey Evans and James Tilley
256 pp.  Oxford University Press £30

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by boatlady on Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:07 pm

even the price excludes the working class - and many of us no longer working
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:30 pm

A chink of light appeared this week to illuminate slightly how the "Old Boy Network" runs Great Britain plc, by Sarah Hogg's resignation from the Bank of England's Governors. A rare error from the normally sure-footed Old Money.

Check this family tree:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Hogg,_Viscountess_Hailsham


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by boatlady on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:51 pm

I'm often struck by the apparent fact that simply being born into an aristocratic and/or wealthy family seems to make people so clever, gifted and generally superior

Feeling proper 'umble
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

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