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Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

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Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:52 pm

I did find it particularly hypocritical that a Tory MP - Nadhim Zahawi - should demand her resignation, and I've 'tweeted' him and told him as much.

No doubt Mr Zahawi has no problems with Boris Johnson being the Tory Mayor of London despite being on record as saying that black people are “flag-waving piccaninnies with water melon faces", that “if left to their own devices the natives of Uganda would rely on nothing but the instant carbohydrate gratification of the plantain”, that South Africa under Nelson Mandela's leadership was a "tyranny of black rule", and that the people of Papua New Guinea have “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.

What the good lady should have said is that it's the Tories (whatever the colour of their skin) who specialise in "divide and rule" - employed against the 'benefit scroungers', private sector against public sector, and most of all, rich against everyone else.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by kentdougal on Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:10 pm



kentdougal. Why the vitriol? If you work (and I'm sure you do), would you like someone to refer to your mistress (or wife) in such a way? What about if I referred to your wife as a twin of the boil on my bottom? What if I actually 'knew' your partner before you and made it all public via Cutting Edge? Would it help make my point? We really do need a more mature approach.

In other words, grow up.[/quote]
Well here's another lefty crawled out of the wood work after all the vitriol spewed on this obviously far left site you have the gall to accuse me. Try reading the rest of the rubbish on this thread and all the others before accusing me of vitriol. And by the way Blair is a lying cheating war criminal and so is his wife

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by jackthelad on Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:45 pm

kentdougal says,
And by the way Blair is a lying cheating war criminal and so is his wife

How do you come to the conclusion that Cherie Blair is a war criminal, she is just a lawyer for god's sake. No powers of government, now powers to start a war, not even a little skirmish, i have read some stupid comments, but that one takes the biscuit. I gather by most of your comments that you are a Tory voter, well then, your comment does not surprise me. No sense ever comes out of a tory's mouth.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:18 pm

Britain's class system is being used as an EXCUSE for all our problems.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by astra on Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Who was it said "I cannot be racist because I am Black!!"


A few years ago now, but can anyone recall that outburst - it WAS a female!

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by atv on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:37 am

As predicted, Diane has made a timely and utterly insincere apology which of course enables the Left to now proclaim "no harm done" and "time to move on".... until a Tory MP makes some similarly foolish comments and then of course they’ll make sure it’ll drag on and on.


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:30 pm

Boris Johnson has said far worse things, and I don't recall any Tories demanding his resignation. Jeremy Clarkson advocated mass murder on prime time television, but did any Tories demand that he was sacked? Not a chance from those hypocrites!

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:32 pm

The class system?


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by blueturando on Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:48 pm

IVAN....I am not saying Diane Abbott should resign or be sacked, but you seem to be defending her comments? Do you think she was right in what she said?

PS....I dont agree with Boris's comments either.....if he made them as you said

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:00 pm

blue. Boris Johnson most certainly did make those comments. They're well documented and I'm not in the habit of posting anything libellous; for a start, I'm not rich enough to defend any action against me! It's also true that Johnson is a thief, who stole an item from the home of Tariq Aziz in Iraq and was ordered by the Met to return it.

Clearly Diane Abbott's comments were unwise in the PC world in which we now live (even if she was referring to the 19th century), and in the environment which saw Alan Hansen being castigated for calling someone "coloured" recently. My annoyance is with the hypocrisy of Tories such as Nadhim Zahawi MP who were calling for Abbott to be sacked yet are quite happy for Boris Johnson to represent their party in a very senior role.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by blueturando on Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:48 pm

Ivan....well that's the problem with British Politics....Both Labour and the Tories would have reacted in the same way to these comments.

The comments were no big deal to me, but I am sure if someone in the Tory party had said Black people like to divide and rule, we shouldn't play their game...Ms Abbott would have been the most vocal against that, screaming racism from the roof tops

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:05 pm

keenobserver1 wrote:
You must be forgetting the schools and hospitals that were built under PFI.
And what's happening now? Osborne has already signed 61 PFI deals, which in total will cost the UK taxpayers £33 billion.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by LWS on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:34 pm

Ivan wrote:
keenobserver1 wrote:
You must be forgetting the schools and hospitals that were built under PFI.
And what's happening now? Osborne has already signed 61 PFI deals, which in total will cost the UK taxpayers £33 billion.

Agreed Ivan, smacks of rank hypocriscy to me. They the Tories, make a great play of critisizing the last Labour government about PFI, then sign up to the same method of procurement.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:53 pm

Hello LWS. Welcome - and thanks for responding to the invitations from Stox and myself!

If you want Tory hypocrisy, there is no better example than the furore over Diane Abbott. This article by Laurie Penny helps to put it into context:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2012/01/white-british-power-divide#reader-comments

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:40 pm

Ivan wrote:Hello LWS. Welcome - and thanks for responding to the invitations from Stox and myself!

If you want Tory hypocrisy, there is no better example than the furore over Diane Abbott. This article by Laurie Penny helps to put it into context:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2012/01/white-british-power-divide#reader-comments

When I heard this piece of news about Diane Abbott, I thought what she should have said was that elite white politicians love to divide and conquer the British, and she would have been bang on.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:46 pm

tlttf wrote:Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?

Did I reply to this, ?, that's what im asking myself ?, oh well, here we go then.

The implication as the British citizen that you say you are, is that your fellow British citizens are a lazy bunch of rabble, which is precisely how Thatcher saw the British working classes.

Factually Thatcher took all dignity from the working man by removing jobs, and placing him on welfare, this was at the crux of her mind, even though some working classe people made it through the storm she inflicted onto society.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:21 pm

blueturando wrote:IVAN....I am not saying Diane Abbott should resign or be sacked, but you seem to be defending her comments? Do you think she was right in what she said?

PS....I dont agree with Boris's comments either.....if he made them as you said

Pardon me dear lady, but Diane Abbot was indeed right.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:51 pm

Ivan wrote:The class system?


Yes.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:08 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?

I agree 100% with everything you have said , and until we can bring a lot them down a peg or two things will never get any better here is average Brit that does not want to become one of them am I different? and it is there arrogance that puts me right off and people like Cameron wear that arrogance like a badge of honour that sticks in my throat and that wedge you talk of is well and truly driven in between the haves and the have nots.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:32 pm

Thirty wealthy families control the money, and provide the government. Tradesmen are valued, but will never have any political power. Immigrants are tolerated for their skills, but despised by the establishment.

Think you recognise the scenario? It describes Rome in the years just before Christ was born.

There is nothing new under the Sun.


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:17 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.
Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?


I think it is something along those lines Ivanhoe, I just hope the "aspirational Tory voters" are very happy with themselves at what they have unleashed on the rest of the UK and hope they do NOT sleep at night.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:23 am

Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.
Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?


I think it is something along those lines Ivanhoe, I just hope the "aspirational Tory voters" are very happy with themselves at what they have unleashed on the rest of the UK and hope they do NOT sleep at night.

Redflag, I dont think they "think". What's needed is a short sharp shock, to bring them into reality.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:51 pm

The Reagan/Thatcher propogation of the "Trickle-down" theory of wealth distribution still finds many willing ears.

Even though it's proved to be a load of rowlocks.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:24 pm

blueturando wrote:The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

Ivanhoe and Ivan (A match made in heaven) Please can you expalin to me your definitions of Middle Class and lower class as I am not sure what either of you are talking about?

I might not be able to explain the middle class but can explain working class (IM one) I can also explain the ones THAT THINK THERE TOP CLASS or as we know it they think that they are BETTER than anybody else, And they only reason they agree with Scam..er...ron is they have there INHERITANCE like himself and Gideon thats the reason they do not feel the pinch of the cuts they where born with money and can't or will not understand why it is so hard too work for everything and then have snooty arrogant BACK-STUD comes along and says we are cutting jobs because we can that is why he is so well in with the Bankers and the Financial sector and why they DETEST the public sector.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:52 pm

Working class = those who work primarily for wages (the vast majority in capitalist states).

Ruling class (bourgeoisie) = those who live on the labour of others.

Middle class = those who work for themselves. Nowadays a few self-employed persons and shopkeepers. This class used to include 'professionals' but doesn't now.

What is in people's heads is always just muddle. We should stick to facts.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by blueturando on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:47 am

The facts according to Penderyn that is

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:17 am

As a misguided tory voter (would much prefer a government that brought back hanging and removed benefits to all able to work). I have slowed down my contribution to this (now nearly defunct) left wing back slapping forum. All of you have lived through the chaos that Blair/Brown delivered and hid from the gullible electorate. We now have a government that is having to make hard choices that Milliband and co agree have to be done (some opposition). My apologies to those on benefits that will struggle to get by on the equivelent of £35,000 pa, perhaps a job on the national average will improve their lifestyle.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:16 am

tlttf wrote:As a misguided tory voter (would much prefer a government that brought back hanging and removed benefits to all able to work). I have slowed down my contribution to this (now nearly defunct) left wing back slapping forum. All of you have lived through the chaos that Blair/Brown delivered and hid from the gullible electorate. We now have a government that is having to make hard choices that Milliband and co agree have to be done (some opposition). My apologies to those on benefits that will struggle to get by on the equivelent of £35,000 pa, perhaps a job on the national average will improve their lifestyle.

Your not only a misguided Tory. Your misguided elsewhere as well.

Everything Blair and Brown undertook under the guize of a Labour governmet from 1997, began under Margaret Thatcher's deregulated free market from the 1980's.

It is gullable people who believe New Labour were a Labour Government.

The deregulation of the banks began in the 80's under Margaret Thatcher, and it's this deregulation that assisted in building up the deficit.

As far as the rest of your posting is concerned re-welfare, I cannot even be bothered to respond.


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:33 am

tittf

I accept your point that there are more people on this forum from a left / leftist point of view than people with a right wing / conservative point of view.

I personaly have attempted ( many times ) to attract more members with opposing views to mine, I have advertised and promoted this forum on websites and web pages of various Conservative groups, also UKIP groups, Lib Dem groups, pro Palestinian groups, pro Israeli groups and many more.

I know that Ivan has done the same, for a short while "Caring Lady" joined in the debates, been a keen supporter of UKIP she made many contributions on the old MSN message board site, I would suggest that rather than abandoning Cutting Edge - stay and fight your corner and have a go at promoting the site and attracting more members.




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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:38 am

Ivan wrote:I did find it particularly hypocritical that a Tory MP - Nadhim Zahawi - should demand her resignation, and I've 'tweeted' him and told him as much.

No doubt Mr Zahawi has no problems with Boris Johnson being the Tory Mayor of London despite being on record as saying that black people are “flag-waving piccaninnies with water melon faces", that “if left to their own devices the natives of Uganda would rely on nothing but the instant carbohydrate gratification of the plantain”, that South Africa under Nelson Mandela's leadership was a "tyranny of black rule", and that the people of Papua New Guinea have “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.

What the good lady should have said is that it's the Tories (whatever the colour of their skin) who specialise in "divide and rule" - employed against the 'benefit scroungers', private sector against public sector, and most of all, rich against everyone else.

Thank you for that Ivan some one else was trying to explain the ( divide and rule) BLAME GAME and it has taken your post to let me see the light on this.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:39 am

Fair point witchy.

Ihoe, by not responding to my comments regarding benefits, I can only assume that you think it correct that benefits should be for life and it should exceed the national average wage. Therein lies the socialist conundrum. Let those that want to work carry those that don't. You can't see a problem there?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:41 am

Ivan wrote:blue. Boris Johnson most certainly did make those comments. They're well documented and I'm not in the habit of posting anything libellous; for a start, I'm not rich enough to defend any action against me! It's also true that Johnson is a thief, who stole an item from the home of Tariq Aziz in Iraq and was ordered by the Met to return it.

Clearly Diane Abbott's comments were unwise in the PC world in which we now live (even if she was referring to the 19th century), and in the environment which saw Alan Hansen being castigated for calling someone "coloured" recently. My annoyance is with the hypocrisy of Tories such as Nadhim Zahawi MP who were calling for Abbott to be sacked yet are quite happy for Boris Johnson to represent their party in a very senior role.

You forget Ivan its one law for them and another law for us PLEBS.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Redflag on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:47 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.
Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?


I think it is something along those lines Ivanhoe, I just hope the "aspirational Tory voters" are very happy with themselves at what they have unleashed on the rest of the UK and hope they do NOT sleep at night.

Redflag, I dont think they "think". What's needed is a short sharp shock, to bring them into reality.

Thanks Ivanhoe you are right there do you think that seeing people put on the streets or bed and breakfast or hostels could be the SHORT SHARP SHOCK?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:52 am

Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.
Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?


I think it is something along those lines Ivanhoe, I just hope the "aspirational Tory voters" are very happy with themselves at what they have unleashed on the rest of the UK and hope they do NOT sleep at night.

Redflag, I dont think they "think". What's needed is a short sharp shock, to bring them into reality.

Thanks Ivanhoe you are right there do you think that seeing people put on the streets or bed and breakfast or hostels could be the SHORT SHARP SHOCK?

Yes, but only if they once had a mortgaged home, a well paid job, and a wife or a husband. Britain does have the highest divorce rate in Western Europe. And somebody once said, experience of life is the only education worth a damn.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:03 pm

Lets all backslap each other and kid ourselves that the previous slime balls in power wouldn't have done exactly the same. When was this country ever run correctly, who exactly was the first to allow commerce to make the laws, who exactly was in charge when we were taken to two wars for very little reason and who was was the first to suck Gaddafi's dick whilst the others fought for a gobful. Get real and stop fanatasizing about how good life was. Of course unemployment was less, everybody was claiming disability instead. Kids were paid to stay on at school thus hiding the truth from the figures and of course extra benefits were paid to immigrants to guarantee their future vote. Yep this lot are really bad aren't they!

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:12 pm

tittf

I have a particular female relative who brought up three children on her own, and allthough she has always gone out to work, she struggled to balance bringing up a family, run a home and go out to work.

Without working tax credits and some help towards rent she simply could never have coped, and I believe that she tryed to do the right thing, she did not sit back and simply live on benefits, she prefered to try and stand on her own two feet, but it wasent enough to manage.

We have got into a situation where there are millions of families and pensioners who rely on benefits as a "top-up" in order to sustain a basic standard of living.

Should tax credits, income support or housing benefit be taken from such people ? - absolutely not, unless of course these same people can either earn wages or be given a pension that they could live on.

In the old days before welfare, people scratched a living, some ended up in work houses, poverty meant communal kitchens, soup kitchens, relying on charity or hand outs.

Today we live in a society where the boss of a nationalized bank gets a £960.000 bonus on top of his £1.2 million salary, and at the same time a humble council worker is thrown onto the scrap heap, onto the dole.

A man on the dole but doing a few jobs on the side will look at the Royal Bank of Scotland and think to himself what exactly ?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:14 pm

tlttf wrote:Lets all backslap each other and kid ourselves that the previous slime balls in power wouldn't have done exactly the same. When was this country ever run correctly, who exactly was the first to allow commerce to make the laws, who exactly was in charge when we were taken to two wars for very little reason and who was was the first to suck Gaddafi's dick whilst the others fought for a gobful. Get real and stop fanatasizing about how good life was. Of course unemployment was less, everybody was claiming disability instead. Kids were paid to stay on at school thus hiding the truth from the figures and of course extra benefits were paid to immigrants to guarantee their future vote. Yep this lot are really bad aren't they!

Actually, Eastern European immigrants are not allowed to claim any benefits until they complete one full year of work, and then they are only allowed to claim one third of what Britain claiments receive.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:43 pm

"Actually, Eastern European immigrants are not allowed to claim any benefits until they complete one full year of work ..."

That's cheating if you're going to use logic. Little Englanders would never think of going abroad to work. Abroad is full of foreigners.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:55 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"Actually, Eastern European immigrants are not allowed to claim any benefits until they complete one full year of work ..."

That's cheating if you're going to use logic. Little Englanders would never think of going abroad to work. Abroad is full of foreigners.

You should write for Private Eye.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:32 pm

tlttf wrote:Fair point witchy.

Ihoe, by not responding to my comments regarding benefits, I can only assume that you think it correct that benefits should be for life and it should exceed the national average wage. Therein lies the socialist conundrum. Let those that want to work carry those that don't. You can't see a problem there?

To each according to his need, lad. Why are we giving such incredible benefits to Cameron and the bankers? There lies the conservative conundrum - not. The rich can't see any problem even about eating our starved bodies, if it keeps them fit!

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