Has the time come for the evolution of capitalism?

Am I alone in suspecting something very big is happening - in terms of society and its perception of the effects and overall value of free market economics upon society?

I'd like to discuss this with all of you in greater detail but before I do please look at my blog:
http://changing-britain.blogspot.com/

I have a lot to say and could not begin to do so in an opening post  

Hopefully I haven't transgressed the t&c's....

Cheers.

Clearly our money is not safe in the hands of Bankers.

Agreed oftenwrong, but I think our problems extend much, much further than the banking system alone.

The sad fact is, that the availability - or lack of availability - of funds at whatever level of society has an enormous 'knock on' effect on all of us.

Why is it that we, as a country have to constantly undergo the ridiculous and damaging 'boom and bust' cycles repeatedly initiated by politicians?

This is not only an observation/question, it is also a criticism of us, the wider population, and what we have allowed ourselves to put up with.

Looking back over the past 50 years it has been a crazy way for the country to function. Absoloutely crazy.

It's no wonder that people are predicting riots on the streets next summer.

people are predicting riots on the streets next summer.

Em Er!!!!
Riots on the streets were s'posed to be summer 2010, summer 2011, and now we have the promise of some entertainment in 2012 (when streets EVERYWWHERE in UK are going to be swarming with security for the 'Games with Rubber Bullets and Water Cannon?

NAH I won't hang by the thumbs

It's no wonder that people are predicting riots on the streets next summer.

Are they? I thought we'd done that. The next public outburst might involve Politicians' heads on poles as an affirmative statement.

astra: Your reply is consistent with the problems we face.

My reference to 'riots' was inserted at the final part of my comment.

Immediately prior to that (and in the same sentence) I had posted 'its no wonder' - which you have selectively, deliberately removed to 'make your point'.

In my humble opinion this is a wholly irresponsible response to the very important point I was making.

So why not try responding to my main points - please?

oftenwrong - I agree with the 'heads on poles' analogy...

Would you or astra have replied differently if I had not referred to 'riots on the streets'?

I think so.

Riots next summer? No, never. Ever.

...but then again there are thousands upon thousands of disillusioned 16 - 24 year old citizens of the UK who use the Internet to communicate on a second-by-second basis.

They will make their own mind up and do as they see fit.

Getting back to the main topic of this thread. Has the time come for the evolution of Capitalism?

This is an interesting subject - I have often thought about that phrase "back to basics" - the simple form of capitalism whereby I offer my labour to make your bread, which you then sell and make a profit, and from the profit you pay for my labour.

We have a capitalist system which says that we do not have enough money to provide the level of public services that (A) we need, and (B) we have grown acustomed to.

And so instead we sack hundreds of thousands of people which results in a loss of revenue to the treasury, and we then pay them Job Seekers Allowance - Housing Benefit - Council Tax Relief - Income Support - resulting in the treasury paying money out. Thats capitalism ?

witchfinder wrote:This is an interesting subject - I have often thought about that phrase "back to basics" - the simple form of capitalism whereby I offer my labour to make your bread, which you then sell and make a profit, and from the profit you pay for my labour.

We have a capitalist system which says that we do not have enough money to provide the level of public services that (A) we need, and (B) we have grown acustomed to.

And so instead we sack hundreds of thousands of people which results in a loss of revenue to the treasury, and we then pay them Job Seekers Allowance - Housing Benefit - Council Tax Relief - Income Support - resulting in the treasury paying money out. Thats capitalism ?

The first paragraph comes close to describing the Kibbutz system of mutual co-operation, but requires special circumstances in order to succeed (e.g. a perceived common enemy). The second paragraph accurately explains why we are about to feel very much poorer, now that we may no longer have such ready access to next month's wages via credit-cards or secured Loans.

The remainder is not capitalism, it's the usual divisive tactics that have always been deployed to keep Tory toffs at the top of the pile, underpinned by a docile workforce.

Changing Britain. Welcome to the forum. You haven’t broken any terms and conditions because you haven’t advertised a private business, and as I’ve said to another member with his own website, he can post a link to it once.

I don’t see that your complaint against astra is justified. Omitting “it’s no wonder” doesn’t alter the sense of the sentence. It wasn’t as if he changed your remark and said that you were predicting riots.

I’ve read your blog. Whilst I applaud your excellent account of the destruction which Thatcher caused to the fabric of our society, the selling off of state assets, and the way that dreadful woman tried to make greed a virtue, I feel it has little else to commend it, especially as you seem to be advocating a one-party state. You will never “effortlessly attract support from the left, middle and right”, except maybe in times of war. Blair's 'Third Way' was supposed to do that, but it only worked short-term and resulted in lingering disillusionment amongst traditional Labour supporters.

The most depressing thing about your blog was the ‘promise’ that “once again, we WILL lead the world”. In my opinion, the continual attempts of this small country to be a big player on the world stage is one of our biggest problems. Yet at the same time, we can’t afford to be insular. Like it or not, the capitalism which you want to see evolve has gone global and can’t be changed in just one country alone.

There are inaccuracies in your blog. Sadly, the Tories didn’t have three terms in government to wreak their destruction, but four. Socialism is not an element of capitalism but an alternative, although it could be argued that social democracy is an attempt to make capitalism function more fairly.

So are you a leader or a follower? You promise us an “unbelievably simple” solution, yet you need to know what we think before you share it with us. You write a piece about yourself but don’t even tell us your name – is this movement to be led by Anon or A.N.Other?

Your blog was launched on 12 September, yet in more than three months it has only attracted 17 comments, and three of them were written by you. That’s hardly the “momentum” which is going to change our country. This forum was only started on 7 October but has already attracted 71 members, and our ambitions are nowhere near as grand.

The income of the richest 10% of this country is twelve times that of the poorest 10%. In the most successful country in Europe, Germany, and also in Denmark and Sweden, the difference is only about six times, which appears to be enough to stop successful entrepreneurs from leaving their respective countries. Research has shown that the most unequal societies are also the most violent, and so continually allowing Cameron’s banker friends to cream off more in bonuses than many people earn in a decade is a contributing factor in crime. The resulting poverty is also a breeding ground for religious extremists. That’s what wrong with Britain. Having the Tories in power, committed as they are to reducing Inheritance Tax for millionaires and cutting the 50% rate of Income Tax at the first opportunity, will only make matters worse.

Cheering news from Switzerland in today's Independent whence a bunch of City Spivs, sorry, "Fund Managers" very publicly fled to avoid Britain's 50% tax rate. Evidently their families haven't been able to settle amongst the gnomes of Zurich, and they are quietly negotiating a tax arrangement with HMRC if they elect to return.

That will presumably reduce future empty threats from Canary Wharf.

So why not try responding to my main points - please?


I thort I did!!

Want it in Swaheeli?

The trouble with our brand of capitalism is it's making the majority of people poor and placing them in a desperate financial trap.

Our capitalist system (bankers, wage masters, politicians, etc) is like a snake eating it's own tail.....the cold blooded greedy bastar-d doesn't realise it's destroying itself.

Thanks for the welcome, Ivan.

A few comments on your response...

Ivan wrote:
"especially as you seem to be advocating a one-party state."

 

Far from it. What I am advocating is co-ordination of the inward disatisfaction, disillusionment - call it what you will - that many, many people across the UK seem to be expressing outwardly via (for example) strikes and riots etc. However, their are many other ways that this frustration is being expressed. Online forums, comment posts, Facebook, Twitter and blogs are FULL of negativity against bankers, politicians, the press, the Police, the economy, each other (!) ...and now political posturing is driving an apparent wedge between us Brits and the rest of Europe.  

Given that everyone appears to be distressed about the same things - as big as the issues are - the Changing Britain vision is quite simply an attempt to engage these people in an effort to encourage us all - in other words society - to focus our combined frustration into one clear, positive vision for the future. So, no, not a one party state. As others have already mentioned, it is only a tiny minority of people in this country that can afford things to stay as they are because of their privileged financial situation. Maybe a 'one society country' is what I am aiming for, rather than a one party state.

Is it REALLY beyond our ability to create a Government that truly reflects the will of the people? If not why not? And should we be successful in doing so why would 'society' wish to change (at each subsequent General Election) that Government ...if it was delivering, year on year, decade on decade the wishes of society? Why should the political landscape change so seismically every time one of the two main parties gain power? It is ridiculous, IMO.

Ivan wrote:You will never “effortlessly attract support from the left, middle and right”, except maybe in times of war.

 

We'll have to beg to differ on this, Ivan. Because of the scale and breadth of disillusionment amongst the citizens of the UK (e.g. the poorer elements of society, the working class, the middle class and yes - even part of the higher earning fraternity) it is clear to me that a new approach to the way we all interact is something that would be welcomed IF that 'new approach' met the needs of all of the above in todays society.

There IS a way to do this, and because of the 'cross-class' nature of the Changing Britain vision it will, by definition attract interest and support from those whose lives and families the vision benefits directly. Whether left, centre or right many are thinking the same.

Ivan wrote:The most depressing thing about your blog was the ‘promise’ that “once again, we WILL lead the world”.  In my opinion, the continual attempts of this small country to be a big player on the world stage is one of our biggest problems.  Yet at the same time, we can’t afford to be insular.  Like it or not, the capitalism which you want to see evolve has gone global and can’t be changed in just one country alone.

 

Leading the world can be done in many ways: through science, through music, through the arts. Leadership takes many forms. I do agree that the UK has been trying (unsuccessfully) to punch well above its weight for a very long time. But, if we as a society can overcome the doom and gloom of today by first of all acknowledging the problems we face, recognise the causes, deal with them and then begin planning for the future we will all be in a better state of mind. Once we do this the door will become wide open for us to powerfully, confidentally and collectively work toward an agreed, prosperous and acheivable future - with defined required societal outcomes used as a marker for success as each year passes. In other words, we won't solve the economic crisis in six months; we wont reduce crime, create full employment and eliminate 'class war' within 5 years. It will take time. If society 'buys into' this consept then the existing way in which politics is done in the UK will be consigned to where I believe it should be - history.  

Then, based on the way in which the UK will have been observed to turn its problems around ...other country's in similar circumstances will undoubtedly follow.

That is what I meant by 'once again we WILL lead the world'.

Ivan wrote:So are you a leader or a follower?  

 Looking around at the lack of leadership shown by ANY politicians I have to conclude that, yes I am undoubtedly a leader - because I don't see others coming up with anything close to the potential offered by the Changing Britain vision. Of course the KEY element of the vision I refer to on my blog still hasn't been revealed for one simple fact: Today's politicians would jump all over it and claim it as their own. That is the way it is today - greed and self interest. As someone who has bitter experience of the way politicians 'steal' ideas I refuse to allow this to happen. This is too big, too important an issue for one or two politicians to make short-term gain.

Ivan wrote:You write a piece about yourself but don’t even tell us your name – is this movement to be led by Anon or A.N.Other?

Preferably A.N. Other. Whoever came up with the Changing Britain vision is irrelevant. It is what it does that matters. I wrote a bit about myself just to let people know that I am not some kind of nutcase (at least I hope thats what they think   )

Ivan wrote:Your blog was launched on 12 September, yet in more than three months it has only attracted 17 comments, and three of them were written by you.  That’s hardly the “momentum” which is going to change our country.  This forum was only started on 7 October but has already attracted 71 members, and our ambitions are nowhere near as grand.

 

For what its worth, Ivan, I think this site is excellent and I thank you for the opportunity to debate my thoughts here, but for me personally it is difficult both in terms of time and effort to find outlets through which I can make the Changing Britain vision known, although I am trying   . The lack of input at my blog doesn't worry me at all. In fact I do say on my blog that I believe that it will take at least 5 years to gain the momentum required to 'make the difference' and begin to put the vision into practice. I'll just keep going!

And finally, you said:

Ivan wrote:The income of the richest 10% of this country is twelve times that of the poorest 10%.  In the most successful country in Europe, Germany, and also in Denmark and Sweden, the difference is only about six times, which appears to be enough to stop successful entrepreneurs from leaving their respective countries. Research has shown that the most unequal societies are also the most violent, and so continually allowing Cameron’s banker friends to cream off more in bonuses than many people earn in a decade is a contributing factor in crime.  The resulting poverty is also a breeding ground for religious extremists. That’s what wrong with Britain.  Having the Tories in power, committed as they are to reducing Inheritance Tax for millionaires and cutting the 50% rate of Income Tax at the first opportunity, will only make matters worse.

..this is the type of frustration I read on the Internet, hear on TV and read in the media. Interestingly, within the above quote you have touched upon the 'missing' element of the Changing Britain vision.

Surely it is 'worth a go'? Especially when no-one else appears to be coming up with anything better? (In my hunble opinion, of course   )[i]

astra wrote: I thort I did!!

Want it in Swaheeli?

Sorry, astra. In the context of my early posts I didn't add enough detail to any 'main points' - doh!  

Hi witchfinder

witchfinder wrote:This is an interesting subject - I have often thought about that phrase "back to basics" - the simple form of capitalism whereby I offer my labour to make your bread, which you then sell and make a profit, and from the profit you pay for my labour.

I expect that the 'simple form of capitalism' you refer to very quickly evaporated when those with money realised there was a lot of profit to be made. Nothing wrong with the original, 'shared' concept, but just LOOK what has happened since.

I will often refer to the 'missing' or 'key' element of the Changing Britain vision because it incorporates EXACTLY what the 'simple form of capitalism' delivered; shared acceptance of shared 'self interest', if you see what I mean.

Despite the enormous scale of the financial industry here (and elsewhere) that simple, basic understanding of capitalism could be reintroduced - as long as it benefited all who participate in the 'new' capitalism....

witchfinder wrote:We have a capitalist system which says that we do not have enough money to provide the level of public services that (A) we need, and (B) we have grown acustomed to.

And so instead we sack hundreds of thousands of people which results in a loss of revenue to the treasury, and we then pay them Job Seekers Allowance - Housing Benefit - Council Tax Relief - Income Support - resulting in the treasury paying money out.   Thats capitalism ?

[/quote]

You are not alone in expressing such disdain for what is happening.

Thanks for your input, witchfinder - I really do appreciate it.

sickchip wrote:The trouble with our brand of capitalism is it's making the majority of people poor and placing them in a desperate financial trap.

Our capitalist system (bankers, wage masters, politicians, etc)  is like a snake eating it's own tail.....the cold blooded greedy bastar-d doesn't realise it's destroying itself.

Hi sickchip. Your analogy is quite graphic - but accurate.

Others in todays society might put it another, more gentle way but yes, the capitalism we have 'grown into' has now become something akin to the snake you describe. Along with you and countless other people I recognise the dangers, hence the Changing Britain vision.

The history of Crusaders inevitably describes the ultimate destruction of what they sought to create.

Capitalism in the UK only exists to serve the top 10% or so. The rest of the docile plebs exist in semi-communist dysfunctional misery imposed on them by our government, and other experts skilled in mass psychology/hypnosis.

Changing Britain wrote:Am I alone in suspecting something very big is happening - in terms of society and its perception of the effects and overall value of free market economics upon society?...

Even though capitalism in its longstanding centres of activity is in very obvious trouble, and indeed has been since the 'credit' of WWII ran out in the mid-1970s, this is still very much the capitalist era; our perceptions are still very much dominated by streams of information and advice which present capitalism normatively.  The most recent crisis, for example, is generally offered up by the media, and thus understood by the public, as having been caused not by the inherent machinations of capitalism but by some inappropriate distortion of them, such as bankers being too greedy or lenders and borrowers being too reckless.  Most have swallowed the idea that if only capitalism was functioning as it 'should' then everything would be ok.  As a Marxist I am inclined to direct people to a more fundamental reading of what has been, and is, happening.  Capitalism is suffering from itself, its own 'internal contradictions' as we call them.  My advice to anyone looking for analysis and explanation beyond maintream (i.e. corporate) media, is to add David Harvey's book The Enigma of Capital to their reading list.

In all likelihood this particular crisis will pass, or appear to pass, but the underlying problems, problems of narrowing profitability options, of one-directional capital accumulation, of steadily rising unemployment and underemployment baselines (among others) will add fuel to the next, probably bigger and sharper, crisis.

I still think that the best advice I was ever given was:

Examine the alternatives!

The trouble with our brand of capitalism is it's just about bled Joe Public dry.

Year upon year people are being left with less disposable income. What do the designers of our capitalist model imagine will eventually happen when people simply can't afford to buy stuff anymore

sickchip wrote:The trouble with our brand of capitalism is it's just about bled Joe Public dry.

Year upon year people are being left with less disposable income. What do the designers of our capitalist model imagine will eventually happen when people simply can't afford to buy stuff anymore

They've already employed the widespread use of credit to push that very problem into the future and been caught short.  Unfortunately capitalism can probably survive quite a long time with a well-protected super rich being serviced by a dependent middle-class - and between them maintaining their political control over the rest of us losers.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next big development was widespread implementation of workfare wherein the unemployed are farmed out to private companies to maximise their profits even further.  The other possible development, already used in the US for some time, is to replace welfare with food vouchers.

In the longer term we might see some level of proletarianisation of the middle-class wherein even their expected social and economic position comes under pressure from technological advance or overseas competition.

Most have swallowed the idea that if only capitalism was functioning as it 'should' then everything would be ok. Capitalism is suffering from itself, its own 'internal contradictions' as we call them.

Oswy , I am wearing a t.shirt now with the above printed across the chest, has the copyright /intellectual property on your words ran out , or do I owe philthy lucre to some corporate , oh hang on that applies in 2017 , sorry letting the cat outta the bag.

I was encouraged to join Cutting Edge by my sister to provide food for thought for those still operating in, for want of a better term, dualistic thinking. Labour or Conservative? Democrat or Republican? The puppet on the Left or the puppet on the Right? They are all puppets, and a total distraction from what's really going on. It's time to wake up and view things from a wider perspective. It's not that difficult if one is prepared to put a bit of time and effort into researching and thinking outside the box. I wonder how many members here have a good foundational understanding of Law, Commerce, Money, Banking and Government? I've been educating myself over the last 9 months or so (actually longer) and I've challenged my assumptions about Life and the state of what we call human civilisation (which is hardly civilised, no?).

Law is simple to comprehend (I won't use the word 'understand' at this point as in the language of Legalese, it means to 'stand-under'). Law = agreement = contract. What then is the most basic kind of Law that everyone of us, universally, would agree on? If you're wondering, Google 'maxims of law'. 'Maxims' are to language what 'axioms' are to geometry. They are universal statements. Surely the most basic law that every human being would agree to is that we do not cause harm, injury or loss to each other, or fraud in our contracts. After all, who would wants to be hurt or ripped off? This basic law is what one might call 'natural law'. As long as we cause no harm and stay in honour of our contracts, we can be completely free from the 'force of law'.

Our society however, seems to have thousands of laws, penalties and fines. In fact they are not laws, but rules and regulations, Statutes, Acts of Parliament, which only apply to government employees. However, there is a huge scam going on, and this has to be comprehended if we want to solve the multitude of issues that are talked about on this forum and in the mainstream media. It does mean swallowing the Red Pill (ref. The Matrix, of course) which can be pretty scary, but is there anyone here who would rather stay asleep? The vast majority of human beings are being bled dry of our sacred labour by a relatively tiny elite in the form of unbelievably wealthy and ancient dynasties. Politicians, polictical parties and economic policies are small fry to them, and we are just like cattle. By the way, please don't believe anything I say here. Do the research and educate yourselves as to the remedy to all of this. We do have a very good system of Law which can be used to our advantage, but one must understand the basics of Contract Law, and how to always stay in honour if a claim is made against you. Never refuse anything, never stay silent, and never argue. Accept everything, then state your own conditions (proof of claim) to that acceptance and set a time for a reply. As individuals we are very powerful, if educated as to the rules of the game of life. Our signatures alone are what create our currency, except that the banks don't tell us this. Every mortgage, loan, and credit card agreement is fraud and misrepresentation, but the companies get away with it because the masses are ignorant. If you are in 'debt', pull your finger out and learn why you are not in debt at all. You created that money, and the banks have asked you to pay it back to them, and with interest on top. It's time for the worm to turn! Do some research please and see that the US and every European country is bankrupt. The 'money' we use is just a promissory note (I promise to pay the bearer 20 pounds... of what??) with nothing to back it. Our wealth was stolen from us along time ago. Any of us could write a promissory note endorsed with our signature, which has more real value than a bank note, because it is backed by the promise of our future labour. Our bankrupt goverments use everyone of us as collatoral on the loans they take from the international central banks, which charge interest. The interest is paid off.. on the never, never.. with every penny of our taxes.. income tax, VAT, council tax, you name it tax.. Our governments needn't have borrowed money from the international bankers. They could have printed it themselves, which is what the banks do anyway. The reason governments don't print their own money is that they are in the pockets of the bankers. It's like a protection racket. Oh... the endless greed....

Well actually we're all to blame, as a historical collective I mean. Out of our ignorance, and our demand to be able to trade for profit, we inadvertently demanded to be enslaved. But never mind, nothing stays the same forever. The Apocalypse is here. We're going though it right now. 'Apocalypse', if you don't know, is a greek word, meaning 'the lifting of the veil', the unveiling, the revealing, or Revelation as the Bible puts it. All that I've said above is just an echo of the truth of our global situation, but it is how things are, and it is being revealed, but we all have to make some effort to lift the veil ourselves and peek behind it.

I believe that the future history books will have a remarkable story to tell of humanity's awakening, but perhaps not everyone needs to wake up, so if you're really tired, don't despair. There is a solution to all this. The bottom line is that our governments and banks have no power over us if we don't enter into their contracts voluntarily. Basic Contract Law. A contract must be entered into voluntarily and with full disclosure of all the terms and conditions, otherwise it is null and void. And another thing, what we call 'recession' in our economies is simply a lack of fluidity in our money supply. There is nothing in common law (which always supercedes statute law) that says a community of people can't issue their own currency in order to make trade within that community possible. It's just a lack of bills of exchange that cause unemployment. So let's create a new ethical bank that is run by the people for the people. The plans are being hatched and the infrastructure build. All we need is a critical mass of people and resources and it can spring into life. It's called the Lawful Bank, and you can watch a presentation on it here:

https://lawfulbank.com/

This is not my bank, but I've looked at it with wide open assumptions and it seems genius to me, a perfect solution and death knell to our current global banking system. You may have to shatter many of your assuptions about life in order to understand it, but please take it seriously. We're on the verge of a spiritual revolution. There is a rising tide of consciousness that is sweeping the planet and it's time to wake up.

I'll leave you with just two links below, in order to get you started gently with opening your eyes. I really hope I don't appear to be patronising to anyone. We are all on different stages of the journey to awakening to higher truths so I assure you that I only mean to be kind and gentle. Please contact me or post a reply if you have any questions. In the meantime, check out these two links...

www.fmotl.com

www.getoutofdebtfree.org

Sorry, one more which was of huge help to me:

http://www.creditorsincommerce.com/audio-contract-law.php and listen to The Rules to the Game of Life audio

Have fun,

A interesting post if some what limited with its out look in my view. as contract law is about a contract between two groups or between two individuals. but like all contracts they are written in good times and only recalled in bad times. However, as a economist i can see little correlation between contract law and a world economic economy. as the fact is that even at the very start of human civilization there was a culture of trade between both individuals and groups of peoples for either goods or services and in many civilizations this was done without even money. I guess you could even call this a very loose contract of sorts. its this that has lead to what we have today and now accept as world economic trade based on payment for both goods and services that once started out as a way of supplying or own communities with new technologies and skills that we in turn could trade with other communities near us.

Now without going into a 30 page reply to you that would bore most people to death its not a matter of left or right or world economics and all that is wrong and right with it. as the plain fact is there will always be trade between peoples all over the world. but the question is how this trade and economy is worked out to the benefit of the majority of the population and not a small group of others. its not even a case of thinking outside the box or even inside the box but how a economic system should work given the human need to both trade with each other so our communities can advance.

Now I sure this reply will not fulfill a desire to see the end of the world economy. but anyone who really believes that humans will give up their need to trade with each other is only fooling themselves. as it just will never change in my view. however, like all the economies of the past it will change and develop into something new. the real question is what?

There is in fact English Law governing unfair contract terms. Its effect is to render them unenforceable.

oftenwrong wrote:There is in fact English Law governing unfair contract terms. Its effect is to render them unenforceable.

This is quite right there is OW. I forgot about that.

Cheers STOX

Hello, agoodman:

In truth, my eyes are not so closed as you might think; much of what you've said, I've heard before. I'm quite aware of the ancient dynasties and have read several books such as Rule By Secrecy authored by Jim Marrs who describes the history and connections between these dynasties. Your proposition is not completely groundless, but you do run into a briar patch for one specific reason: You outline the legal aspects of this new world just fine, but you haven't acknowledged the fly in the ointment: Human Nature.

Even if everyone woke up tomorrow and began doing things like issuing "community currency," there are several issues which I'll address in no particular order of importance:

1) Lack of trust. There will always be thieves, scam artists, fraudsters, and cheats no matter how wide open our eyes are. That's human nature. If anyone can simply write a promissory note, call it currency, and purchase expensive goods with a simple sheet of paper, people are going to realize that they can simply issue them willy nilly and there will be no real safeguards against dishonesty. I can hand you a note, drive off in my brand new car ... and never come back. Who am I to you that you would accept only my word as payment? Why should you trust me? Well ... there is no reason since trust takes time. People are not going to accept community money from just anyone. Our currency is valuable simply because we say it is - there is no intrinsic value to a bank note or a promissory note. It all hinges on faith - faith that the currency we receive can be traded to someone else for goods/services who, in turn, will want to trade that currency for goods/services. The further away the community currency travels from its origin, the less value it will have. Faith in its value will degrade with distance until it becomes, quite literally, a worthless piece of paper.

2) Who do I owe? If I give someone a promissory note which, as the name implies, promises a future favor (i.e. debt), then who would I owe that debt to, and what would I pay it with? Someone else's promissory note? The problem is that the piece of paper with my signature on it could end up thousands of miles away, perhaps even in another country. What would occur if some person in China called in my future favor? What happens if I have thousands of promissory notes circulating around the globe and people begin saying, "I hold your contract, now you must deliver labor to me as payment." I just don't understand how that would work.

3) Global inter-dependency. Most communities are not self-sufficient. Circulating community money might be fine if everything from oranges to automobiles were produced in the same location. But that's unrealistic. You can't grow oranges in Maine, you can't pump oil in New York, you can't bottle water in Nevada. Because the value of a promissory note will degrade with distance, interstate and international commerce will be all but impossible. A store owner trying to buy a Japanese car for his American showroom by handing a manufacturer a stack of American promissory notes signed by complete strangers from a foreign country just doesn't sound all that reasonable. There would be no reason for the Japanese auto maker to have any faith whatsoever in the value of those notes.

4) Inescapable poverty. The issue of trust is very important. A person who is perceived to be untrustworthy will find his promissory notes worthless. That will mean he cannot purchase any goods from anyone else, at least not within his own community. Imagine if, in the world we have now, shops and businesses refused to take any money from criminals? How would they survive? There is a lot of room for corruption in such a system, a system whereby a dominant group could simply cow a community into refusing promissory notes from certain individuals. In other words, coercion. Do this, pay us that, or we take your ability to survive away from you. It would resemble "The Night of Broken Glass" in Nazi Germany.

5) No guards against inflation. If we can just write out our own promissory notes in exchange for tangible goods and services, why have the notes at all? These items will still essentially be free for the taking. How would we control demand, much less supply, if one person can buy every item in a store with a single slip of paper? How does anything have value when there is no scarcity? How can we prevent constant shortages? Look what happens on Black Friday every year as people storm stores for sale items, literally trampling each other to death in the process.

Now, having said all of that, I'm no fan of the current plutocracy/aristocracy we have going on in the Western world. I'm not a fan of banking or business practices taking place, and I'm on board with your idea that things are going to change. I'm just not sure what you think they're going to change in to. No matter what system we put into place, the same old humans with the same old weaknesses will be running the show. Leaders will emerge, followers will follow, and somehow, guaranteed, we'll end up right back here in a generation or two. Intelligent yet greedy, deceitful people will find a way to make any system work for them at the expense of everyone else, and I just don't see any preventative plan in place to make that Freedom become a true reality.

Best wishes.

It's always amusing to read the expositions of someone who thinks they have just invented the wheel. There is literally nothing new under the Sun, and whatever arguments are proposed, there is always something somewhere that relates to a precedent.

Fifty years ago there was a Banking strike in the Republic of Ireland. While the currency notes became grimier and smellier, people offered and accepted personal cheques as currency too. For the four months duration of the strike, cheques were written for things as trivial as a pint of beer. When the dispute between Banks and their employees was finally resolved, a lot of people found themselves with a lot of valueless bits of paper, but the fact was that eight out of ten cheques were actually cleared on presentation.

People are fundamentally honest, but as in all financial matters it is sensible to "know" who you are dealing with.

Hi all.

Thank you all for taking so much time to consider my post and respond at length. You make many points which any intelligent person might make, bearing in mind what was missing from my post. It was by no means complete. I completely omitted a vital part of the discussion I was trying to start, so thanks for bringing it up

Shirina, you said, "you haven't acknowledged the fly in the ointment: Human Nature." Yes, what an omission! I won't answer your points one by one, but I will attempt to show you a wider perspective which, if I do it well enough, will answer all your natural doubts and questions. But once again, what I say is not the truth, though it is a reasonably accurate representation of What Is, given that in using words, there is much that's generalised, distorted and deleted.

As it happens, I am a 'professor' of a very wide academy, of which human nature is merely a part. There are many mistaken beliefs about what Human Nature is at it's core, mistaken simply by taking too narrow a perspective, but which otherwise seems to make complete sense. Research and observation from a much wider point of view than seeing the generality of human behaviour as it is, and has been, within this economic slave culture, now and over the last 5000 years or so, reveals something quite beautiful about human beings. I'm going to assert here for the moment that, despite what common appearances, human beings by nature are vastly intelligent, have a zestful enjoyment of living, and are loving and affectionate with all other humans. The reason that doesn't appear to be apparent is that every human being, even from before birth, suffers physical and emotional pain which blocks these natural capacities. Every stressful experience, if not discharged properly and fully, gets stuck as a kind of stress recording within the nervous system, which then becomes a reactive pattern in similar circumstances. The pain inflicted on us by others, including our parents, is only a consequence of the pain inflicted on them. And in turn, our own pain gets passed on to others whose lives we touch, even when we have the best intentions at heart.

The tragedy of the human experience is that up to now we haven't had a high enough level of awareness collectively and individually for the most part, to put a stop to this transmission of pain. As a result, we fear revealing ourselves to each other, even with close friends, family members, and lovers. Shame, which arises from the fear of being judged by others and hurt or excluded, is a crippling 'dis-ease'. However, there is an antidote we can all apply right now. The antidote is empathy, and we all have the power to spread it. Indeed there is a rising tide of consciousness which is accelerating whether one is aware of it not.

One of the best ways I've come across for beginning the process of releasing our fear of each other and encouraging true intimate connection with anyone, is to learn Marshall Rosenberg's ‘Language of Life’, aka Nonviolent Communication. For anyone who's not explored this, I highly recommend this 3 hour video. When I first saw this, I was catapulted into a much higher level of awareness which radically improved my life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEqmZ2E1o64&feature=related

NVC is a language of feelings and needs and teaches us how to end our habitual ways of blaming, judging, criticising, making others responsible for our own feelings, and manipulating others with punishment and reward. It has become so habitual to ease our own fear and pain by blaming, judging and criticising others. Our own fear of being blamed, judged and criticised perpetuates the situation, so if we truly want to live in a better world, we have to end our own habitual pattern. It's easy enough when we learn to empathise. Empathy is the understanding of another persons thoughts and feelings. Our empathy for others increases when we examine our own thoughts, feelings and need. If we don't understand ourselves, it's very difficult to understand others. It has been said by many great teachers throughout history that self-knowledge is the most important knowledge there is. Through self-inquiry we gain an understanding of how negative feelings arise as a result of out unmet needs. Positive feelings arise when are needs are met. The basic human needs are universal, so it's really not hard to understand the needs of anyone else if we just get in touch with what's alive within us. None of this is rocket science!

So as well as creating and building solutions to the current banking, legal and governance systems, we need to take responsibility for our own feelings, and start the process of freeing ourselves and everyone whose lives we touch from fear, pain, shame and mistrust. Let's all start demonstrating to others that we will never judge them. For example, if I revealed to you something about myself which we would normally consider shameful, you would know that you had nothing to fear about my judgement of you, simply because I've shown you my vulnerability. That would allow you to feel safe to open up to me, and we'd start to share empathy, the antidote to shame. As our conversation unfolded, we would start feeling deeper trust with each other. With trust comes friendship, and with friendship comes love.

Also, if you think about it, what on earth could be more fulfilling than contributing to another someone else's well-being? This is where our true nature lies. The international banking cartel have created so much fear by controlling the money supply which allows them to control governments, education and the media. In the process we've forgotten Who We Really Are. The one single mistaken belief we hold, individually and collectively, is that there is not enough... Not enough money, not enough stuff and not enough love. This is the greatest fallacy. There can always be enough 'bills of exchange' if we create an ethical bank run by the people for the people which would issue credit rather than debt. The supply of credit would be fixed. This step alone would end unemployment, boom and bust cycles, and the disproportionate concentration of wealth in the hands of the very few. The ridiculous notion of ever increasing economic growth would end, stopping the ever increasing environmental destruction. The fear of not being able to survive because there isn't enough work and there isn't enough money would vanish. It was all a figment of our collective imagination anyway. Our fears about future survival would vanish and it would become obvious what the differences between our needs and wants were. If our needs were met there would be no fear, and we would be free to contribute to the well-being of all, in exactly the ways that we find most fulfilling.

All of this is entirely possible, it is just one collective thought away. If all of us changed our basic assumptions about life in the same instant - and an instant is all it would take - life on planet earth would totally change, sweeping away 5000 years of fear and separation, awakening us to a new age of love and co-operation. As I observe it, that process is happening, regardless of what any of us individually is thinking, doing or not doing. We all have choice. We can choose to play our part in this process in any way we like. We are all creative beings. From a very high perspective we aren't just human beings having a spiritual experience, but One spiritual being, One Unified Consciousness, no less than the entire Universe, having a manifold experience of being human, from a multitude of individual points of view located on Planet Earth at these particular points in time and space. Is that unclear to anyone? Is that not obvious?

Each and everyone of us is a unique aperature through which 'the Universe' observes and experiences itself, bound by the five human senses and the space and time we occupy. Awareness is the ground of all being, which, through a simple but continually repeated process of self-relation, bootstraps itself into Life. Space, time and matter are secondary to consciousness, a 5-dimensional virtual reality in which consciousness evolves over billions of years from the dimmest awareness, to the greatest awareness, eventually knowing itself fully in it's own experience. Each one of us is an individuation of That, here to know ourselves in our own experience, and to re-create ourselves in the next grandest version, of the greatest vision we ever had about Who We Are... forever and ever, world without end...

OMG... that ended up a bit cosmic... sorry

Awesome.

The answer is simple : all that is required is for everyone to send me a very large cheque and I promise I would do my utmost to spend the accumulated cash in such a way as to stimulate the world economy, with a start being made here in good old Britain. Some sectors may benefit a tad more speedily than others , but I'd get round to everything in time.

No time wasters......

So, there was I thinking about the creation of an ethical and lawful bank run by the people, for the people, issuing it's own credits by carefully fractionalising its reserves, and allowing members to pay their utility bills and mortgage payments with the new issued credits, when I came across this web site, and I wandered off into a whole new realm of day-dreamy thought of what it might be like if we just threw the whole idea of banking away so there simply was no money and everything was free...

See what you think (and be thoughtful about your assumptions coz they may not be correct)...

http://www.freeworldcharter.org/en

I'm up for it..!

Everything IS free. The riches of the World are owned in equal proportion by all of its inhabitants.

Aren't they?

Somebody call an ambulance while I keep him talking.....

I have to yield to Andrew Lansley, Minister for Health (Lordelpus) whose latest pronouncement is the final solution to the problem of old age.

You can have anything you want as long as you can pay for it yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM05tAtEjdQ

Today's newspapers carry a story about UBS being "fined" almost a Billion Pounds for manipulating the LIBOR bank rate to their own advantage.

That'll larn 'em, won't it!

Apparently though, it won't. Informed commentators explain that such an amount is only a pinprick to one of the "casino banks", who make that kind of profit in just a few days.

Today's horror story describes how our "hard working entrepreneurs" like things to work:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace/ar-BBlNQ1l