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Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

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Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:10 am

First topic message reminder :

So Cameron looks after the interests of the City Bankers while they have a cheap drink or two. are you happy with this?

In an interview with the Times, Diamond said the rule applied to bankers considered to be prima donnas, too greedy, too ostentatious or poor team players. He said he had already kicked out 30 staff for breaking his new ethics rule.

"If someone can't behave with their colleagues and can't be part of the culture, it doesn't matter how good they are at what they do, they have to be asked to leave," he said.

Referring to the incident at the Gordon Ramsay restaurant Petrus, Diamond said: "That was embarrasing. It was taking advantage – we have a responsibility to our colleagues to have acted that way in a public place was inexcusable."

The bankers consumed some of the most expensive wine available to London diners: a 1982 Montrachet priced at £1,400 and three bottles of Petrus Pomerol. A 1945 bottle of Petrus cost £11,600, a 1946 bottle £9,400 and a 1947 bottle £12,300. There was also a dessert wine costing £9,200. The restaurant threw in the food for free.

Still.... as Cameron said, We must look after the interests of the City from Europe. I can see what he means by this. as its so worrying that they are driven to drinking £12,300 bottles of wine. Still they do pay the Tory party £6 million a year to look after them. Wounder who looks after the rest of US? or the 2.7Million Unemployed.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Ivan wrote:Is it right for Moira Stuart to act like this?

Many of you will have seen the Inland Revenue advert to remind taxpayers to send in their self-assessment tax forms where BBC newsreader Moira Stuart tells us that "tax doesn't have to be taxing". It certainly isn’t for her. In April 2010 she set up a private firm, Moira Stuart Ltd (of which she is the sole director and shareholder) that allows her to avoid the 50% top rate of tax on some of her income. The device allows individuals to pay as little as 21% Corporation Tax, rather than the higher rate of 40% or top rate of 50% Income Tax. 'The Sunday Telegraph' estimates that in 2010-11, income that Stuart siphoned into this sham Company paid Corporation Tax of £4,380 instead of Income Tax of over £11,000.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/19/moira-stewart-tax-private-company?newsfeed=true

Is it right? Of course it's right. If it were not, the HMRC would have issued a Bankruptcy Notice for unpaid taxes by now.
If you are asking whether it is legitimate, you are talking about The Law, not the actions of individuals who work within the Law to their maximum advantage.

It was the Construction Industry that spawned the Company selling the services of its only Director, over thirty years ago. It began with Architects and Quantity Surveyors and spread as far as Plasterers and Elecricians etc.

If the government doesn't like it, it only has to change the Law. An awful lot of Tory supporters would be caught by such changes.

Incidentally it's totally inaccurate to describe " Moira Stuart Ltd " as a sham company. since it is a properly Registered legal entity at Companies House and you can see its Accounts upon application to Companies House. (There are tens of thousands similarly registered Companies with a sole Director.)

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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by astradt1 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:51 pm

Nice to see those who should pay higher rate taxes are able to pay just 1% more than the rest of us...but then again the must be some tax right offs which could sort out that 1%......and cover the cost of tax accountants
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:44 am

Well I would be very happy if the bankers who did all the gambling was to first of all pay back all the £300 billion they have had in QE with the £157 billion that has been wasted by this government. but alas banks and there shareholders are so far not been made responsible for there actions at all. as they was more than happy to take the profits but not their debts.

All of what is going on today lays at their doors. not the NHS, nor the poor or low waged but at the door of the banks and there shareholders. you know I hear all this utter rubbish that they would leave the UK. Well I do wish they would just stop the treats and get on with it......we will soon see other ready to replace them...I am sick to death with all this crap about us paying out to keep the finance sector happy. too hell with bankers and there shareholders. what about the 99% of us who are not bankers or shareholders. they matter a great deal more to me.
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RBS bonuses, are you happy with them?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:25 pm

RBS LOSS OF £2 BILLION WITH ALMOST A £1 BILLION BONUS POOL, CAMERON DEFENDS THE CITY OF LONDON..ONCE MORE


Its almost utterly absurd that Cameron should even accuse people of being Anti-Business in what is a clear crass attempt to deafened his City banking friends who indirect fund the Tory party. So far Cameron has shown that he is more than willing to defend his paymasters in the EU and now in the Media here in the UK. Yet not once has he shown any such commitment to any other sector of the economy.

I have yet to meet anyone who is Anti-Business, in fact many people cheers on the small businessman and wish them well. However, I have meet many who are Anti the Financial sector and this is quite justified given that many people within Manufacturing and Retail sectors have been told they can expect no rise within there salaries for the third year running.. Added too this is the fact that what is left of the public sector are also facing a pay freeze for there third year too.

Once more Cameron and his banal Tory lead Government have sent out a very clear message to all the public.. showing what there true economic priorities are for the UK. it’s the first time that I am pleased to hear this speech…. As its one more nail in this Governments coffin. As it finally kills the Tory party myth that we are all in this together. As it’s now more then clear that if you an investment banker then you are worth your salary of between £600 and £700 per day and £23,000 top up bonus. While the rest of the UK public are only worth a pay freeze.

So lets just take a little peek in how much an investment banker can expect to pay…Just so we are very clear who Cameron and his Tory party are defending.



PROJECT INVESTMENT BANKER
Location City of London.
Salary £600 to £700 per Day pig

JUNIOR BUSINESS ANALYST, INVESTMENT BANKER
Location St Paul’s City of London
Salary…£300 to £400 per day pig

BUSINESS ANALYST, FRONT OFFICE RISK INVESTMENT BANKER.
Location St Paul’s
Salary 70k to 100K pig


The chief executive of RBS has launched a robust defence of the £800m bonus pool paid out by the taxpayer-backed bank amid £2bn of losses.

Prime Minister David Cameron, who was accused of stoking an anti-business climate during the row over Mr Hester's bonus, said he was content with the bonuses being paid to RBS staff this year.
He said RBS had rightly become the "back marker" when it came to banker's pay.
On Thursday, Mr Cameron gave a speech to the Business in the Community charity warning against hostility towards UK businesses and calling for responsible capitalism.
He said: "Today business needs champions, more than ever. In recent months we've heard some dangerous rhetoric creep into our national debate that wealth creation is somehow anti-social, that people in business are out for themselves.
"We have got to fight this mood with all we've got.
"Not just because it's wrong for our economy, because we need growth and jobs but because it's wrong for our society."
SKY NEWS 23/02/2012

So are you happy that our Tory Party leader attacks the UK Public as being Anti=Business? or is this just more pay back for Tory party Funding at the Expanse of the 99% of who are not working as investment bankers?

ARE YOU POSSIBLE HAPPY TO TAKE A PAY FREEZE WHILE INVESTMENT BANKER WHO RAN UP A £2 BILLION LOSS TAKE THEIR £23,000 AVERAGE PAY OUT?

Just remember its our bank we are told?
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by astra on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:45 pm

A fellow in the Chemo. suite said he had moved ALL his accounts out of RBS yesterday. Did not say where he put his bank account, but did allude to puting a sizeable portion of his money (nothing to the suits of course) to the Yorkshire Building Society -- apparently one of the few mutual building societys left. I do not know if that last statement is correct, but it DOES have me thinking.

The last time I had an RBS account was in the 70s in Arbroath and was very tempted to spit on the managers shiney oak table (close to the out tray!). I did like to make a memorable impression back then! I Would not open an account there (RBS) with a cruise missile strapped to my back and a sidewinder missile poking at my right ear!
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:51 pm

astra wrote:A fellow in the Chemo. suite said he had moved ALL his accounts out of RBS yesterday. Did not say where he put his bank account, but did allude to puting a sizeable portion of his money (nothing to the suits of course) to the Yorkshire Building Society -- apparently one of the few mutual building societys left. I do not know if that last statement is correct, but it DOES have me thinking.

The last time I had an RBS account was in the 70s in Arbroath and was very tempted to spit on the managers shiney oak table (close to the out tray!). I did like to make a memorable impression back then! I Would not open an account there (RBS) with a cruise missile strapped to my back and a sidewinder missile poking at my right ear!

HI astra.
I do find one thing quite funny about all of this...who is the Tory parties bankers?....yes RBS..I do my business banking with the Dutch bank ING...but also have a mutual building societys account..for me I would not bank with any of the main Top four banks in the UK....I just do not like how they run there banks at all...I.N.G has been totally breath of fresh air..but I started out with just the old mutual building societys. they are by far the best run banks in the UK in my view. however....did enjoy the sidewinder missile bit....hell it would just be great if Cameron was stating in front of it too. ha ha ha
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by astra on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 pm

Is ING caught up in the Icelandic debacle'?
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:25 pm

astra wrote:Is ING caught up in the Icelandic debacle'?

I believe it is...but its still a bank that seems to be run well...or it does from my companies point of view.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:37 pm

Cameron is rather unhappy at Public criticism of voracious capitalist companies, but the proof of the pudding is whether company bosses are prepared to share the privation imposed upon the workers.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:59 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Cameron is rather unhappy at Public criticism of voracious capitalist companies, but the proof of the pudding is whether company bosses are prepared to share the privation imposed upon the workers.

Oftenwrong
you cannot get any more voracious capitalist than the finance sector...If I can build in a salary increases that are sensible than so can any company..yet what we have here is a bank like RBS making a £2 billion loss while giving out £1 billion bouns payments for failing.. well how about we cut out all RBS bouns payment to a group of people who do not need it...and use the £1 billion to cut the RBS debt instead? what is wrong with that? I think nothing at all myself.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:21 pm

The fact is investment bankers are not some sort of business entrepreneurs. what they are is just private business civil servants and no more than that.

I am a small businessman and have yet too met a investment banker who would gamble with his own home or business like a small businessman has too to start out.

THEY ARE NOT ENTREPRENEURS AT ALL JUST CIVIL SERVANTS THAT ARE OVER PAID. small business like my own are quite frankly sick to death with the Tory party backing just one small part of the economy. people are not anti small business at all....but are rightly anti the finance sector.
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RBS and Lloyds have paid back their loans, where is the money?

Post by sampbang on Tue May 15, 2012 8:41 pm

Recently it was announced that RBS and Lloyds will have shortly paid off the loans from the Government it used during the height of the credit crisis in 2008.

As I don't understand fully the economics of the bailouts, how they work, where is the money that was paid back, was it real money, or sums of figures that are never actually seen.

I think between these 2, there was somewhere in the region of over £300bn borrowed from both the UK and US governments. This amount of money would go a long way in dealing with the major economic issues we are facing.

I'm probably missing something simple/complicated, and would really like to know the ins and outs of the loans, how it was loaned, and subsequently, how it was paid back.

Any links to some guides, or some explanations would be great. Thanks.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 15, 2012 10:22 pm

A cogent question, sambang, but so as to pitch the answer at an appropriate level, could you please indicate whether you are more than eight years old?

The average voter already knows the true answer.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by sampbang on Tue May 15, 2012 10:31 pm

So where then?

32 years of age lol!!

I basically want to know all of the details. Which aren't all that easy to find. How was it loaned, hard cash, electronic money, guarantees? How was it paid back, what was the interest, were there any transaction fees, basically everything regarding this if possible.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:02 am

sampbang wrote:Recently it was announced that RBS and Lloyds will have shortly paid off the loans from the Government it used during the height of the credit crisis in 2008.

As I don't understand fully the economics of the bailouts, how they work, where is the money that was paid back, was it real money, or sums of figures that are never actually seen.

I think between these 2, there was somewhere in the region of over £300bn borrowed from both the UK and US governments. This amount of money would go a long way in dealing with the major economic issues we are facing.

I'm probably missing something simple/complicated, and would really like to know the ins and outs of the loans, how it was loaned, and subsequently, how it was paid back.

Any links to some guides, or some explanations would be great. Thanks.

Hi and Welcome to the site.
Well a most intelligent question to ask. but let start by looking at the true figures of this issue. something our friend on the right do not like to write or talk about, as its not at all pretty for them

Well a very interesting Question indeed, However, it transpires that the £850bn figure form 2009 has since been updated twice, most recently in a July report on the treasury's "financial stability interventions" by the end of the 2010-11 financial year in March. It sets out the total cash spent, guarantees made and fees received from the banks so far. We aim to add some tables in shortly setting out the full figures, but to summarise:
Since 2007 the UK has committed to spending £1.162 trillion at various points on bailing out the banks. This figure has however fluctuated wildly during the period and by March 2011 it was £456.33bn. That total outstanding support was equivalent to 31% of GDP in March.

 The £456.33bn figure breaks down into £123.93bn in loan or share purchases, which required a cash injection from the government to the banks, and £332.4bn in guarantees and indemnities which haven't actually been paid, but were offered to shore up the failing bank system.

 Of the £123.93bn, the Royal Bank of Scotland received £45.80bn, Lloyds £20.54bn, Northern Rock a total of £22.99bn, Bradford and Bingley £8.55bn and a further £26.05bn went on "loans to support deposit".
 By March 2011 the Treasury had received £11.75bn in fees and interest on the £332.4bn guarantee schemes.

The Treasury has pledged to spend £1.2 trillion on the bail-out since the crisis began. But the real outlay has been much smaller. By March it was committed to spending £456.33bn: £123.93bn in loan or share purchases, which required an actual cash injection from the government to the banks, and £332.4bn in guarantees and liabilities. It costs taxpayers up to £5bn a year just to service the loan that the crisis incurred.
In cash terms the UK government has so far spent £123.93bn, but it has at various points since the crisis began been exposed to a sum 10 times larger.

The initial response from the Treasury to our question was that the bail-out would cost nothing, because the banks will pay the money back. But asked when that was likely to happen by they acknowledged that in the cases of Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley this time span could be 20 years or longer as it depends on people paying off their mortgages.

There are outstanding questions from this data: what exactly have the banks paid back so far? now this is the true issue? how much so far and out of what?


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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:11 am

Then comes the next big problem


SHAMBOLIC ECONOMIC DATA

We've been pointing to UK's shambolic economic data as evidence that austerity is failing in the UK, but then of course, the whole point is to reduce public sector debt, so if that were happening, then the pain might be worth it.

Well, it isn't.

Her Majestey's Treasury (link available on this page) just announced the following:

(T)he public sector current budget was in deficit by £8.4 billion; this is a £2.8 billion higher deficit
than in April 2010, when there was a deficit of £5.6 billion;

P)ublic sector net borrowing was £10.0 billion; this is a £2.7 billion higher deficit than in April
2010, when net borrowing was £7.3 billion;

Both numbers are worse than expected. Expectations were for net borrowing of just over £6 billion Meanwhile, public debt to GDP just keeps rising

There's no acute debt problem there, but the efforts in the UK by the David Cameron government (who has said he fears that the UK could become Greece) have failed. Despite budget cuts, the deficit is rising.

You can download the latest public sector finances data here (.pdf).

As you can see on this chart, net public sector debt/deficits was worse on every level compared to the August from the year before.

Also in UK news: The minutes from the Bank of England meeting just came out. Members vote 8-1 to keep the current QE program as is, and not expanded it.

If you would have listen to this man in the in the spring of 2007 until now, you'd be ahead of the game. Reggie Middleton Tuesday, 20 September 2011 09:43 The UK, IMF and the EU have been consistently and overtly optimistic from the very beginning of this crisis. Their numbers have been dramatically over the top on the rosy scenario side - and that is after multiple revisions to the downside!!! To make matters even worse, the sovereign states have taken these dramatically optimistic and proven unrealistic projections and have made even more optimistic and dramatically unrealistic projections on top of those in order to create the illusion of a workable "austerity" plan when in reality there is no way in hell the stated and published plans will come anywhere near reducing the debts and deficits as advertised - No Way in Hell !

You can mention the Netherlands, too. Teutonically austerians since the last election and with a worsening outlook on all fronts. Now even the IMF is telling them to give it up, but the Finance Minister Kees de Jager is not to be stopped. Meanwhile, across the Belgian border...EVEN more mess it to be found and it goes on and on

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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:23 am

Senior executives at the UK’s partially nationalised banks Loldys say their distressed loan books are showing signs of improvement despite a dismal economic backdrop and government austerity measures.

Then comes this little lot?

ROYAL Bank of Scotland is expected to take another step on the road to recovery by announcing plans to fully repay its £163 billion of emergency loans.

The taxpayer-backed bank will reportedly say that by the end of next week it will have repaid all the loans it took from the US and UK Governments during the financial crisis.

The announcement, part of its first quarter results, comes after a similar step from Lloyds, which recently said it will have repaid all of its £157 billion of loans by the end of the year.

Despite RBS passing the milestone, the UK Government will still own 82% of shares in the bank after its £45.5 billion bailout.

Its loans included £75bn from the credit guarantee scheme and the Bank of England's special liquidity scheme, £36.6bn in emergency liquidity assistance from the Bank of England, and some £52bn from the US Federal Reserve.

RBS is still receiving some central bank support via the €10bn (£8m) of cheap three-year loans from the European Central Bank's long-term refinancing operation. But this has been seen as an opportunity to raise cheap funding rather than necessary support.

RBS is also understood to have paid the UK Treasury about £1.5bn in fees for the credit guarantee scheme, meaning the taxpayer has seen some return on its money.

While the worst may be over for the part-nationalised banks, RBS chief executive Stephen Hester recently warned there is plenty of hard work ahead, including two years of "heavy lifting, significant clean-up costs and vulnerability to outside events".
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:31 am

So the bottom line is that all the UK BANKING DATA IS SHAMBOLIC ECONOMIC DATA. not unless you happen to be Gideon and the Tory party. then its all very easy.

What we have here is the greatest Economic snow job in living history taking place. what's more take it from me, as i run a company that sells economic data. I am yet to work out what set of figures they are working too or what they mean in real terms. but what I can be 100% sure of is that this Bloody Government is just about the worst government in the whole history of economics I can remember in all my 54 years. as so far we have no fiscal growth policy for the last two and a half years. with no economic data that match's up. With Gideon who's only real policy is based on some outdated 1980 wet dream about the so-called Tory Golden years of Maggot Thatcher that never was that golden in the first place. while 2.8 million of my people are sat at home without a job and worried to half death they will lose there homes.

However, thank you God as there is a last a bright side to all of this utter madness. first France has a real government that understands how real economies should work. (2) The Greek people who are almost of there heads by now look to be calling it a day and its my best guess will run two currencies along side each other much as many states world wide do today and may I add works very well. (3) the last EU growth figures show the EU is at 0 growth while we are at -2 growth which once more shows this crazy policy we have is not working at all. The bad news is we still have this Government in place for three more years. so by then all the UK economic data will useless with us totally broke. while UK banks will get away with it all as know one will know what has been paid off of what
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by sampbang on Wed May 16, 2012 2:28 am

Brilliant, thanks for the information. Cleared up a lot for me. Not as simple as just paying a fixed sum back. As always in economics, it's never simple.

So looking at the figures above, or shambolic economic data, austerity isn't working at all, with the deficit rising leading to more borrowing. Well done Gideon and the ConDems!!
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 3:07 am

sampbang wrote:Brilliant, thanks for the information. Cleared up a lot for me. Not as simple as just paying a fixed sum back. As always in economics, it's never simple.

So looking at the figures above, or shambolic economic data, austerity isn't working at all, with the deficit rising leading to more borrowing. Well done Gideon and the ConDems!!

You're most welcome Sampbang, sorry it looks so very bad. but with this lot in power everything is bad. Gideon and his long lost mates in the Lib/Dems could not be makes it worse.. if they was not trying so hard Very Happy but I have posted this before but think its worth doing so again


MYTH: Government debt is the highest it's ever been

The UK's government debt is at around 70 per cent of GDP (the total amount of goods and services produced in one year). That is certainly high, but it is far from unprecedented.

Government debt never fell below 100 per cent of GDP between 1920 and 1960. It is only in the past decade or so that it has become normal to think of government debt being stable at around 40 per cent of GDP.

It is worth noting that government debt reached 250 per cent of GDP around the end of the second world war, as the result of a 'once in a generation' economic and political crisis. It is certainly arguable that we are now living through a similarly momentous crisis.

MYTH: The UK's debt crisis is one of the worst in the world

Just as the current level of government debt is not unprecedented historically, neither is it substantially higher than that of other countries.

IMF data (IMF World Economic Outlook Database, April 2010) shows the UK has the lowest government debt as a proportion of GDP among the G7 countries (the US, Canada, Germany, Britain, Japan, Italy and France).

Much has been made by Cameron and Osborne of Gordon Brown's 'imprudent borrowing record'. They say that before the spending to stabilise the financial system, public debt was high.

But again, IMF comparisons of the level of public debt prior to 2007 showed the UK in a much better position than many comparable countries, such as France, Canada, the US and even Germany, the home of fiscal rectitude.

MYTH: Government debt is 'unsustainable'

The sustainability of government debt is not just dictated by its size, but by its make up. We have already seen that government debt is at a comparable level to other similarly sized economies. Where the UK is in a much stronger position, however, is in the nature of its debt.

While countries such as Greece tend to owe money to external financiers, the vast majority of UK debt - about 70 to 80 per cent - is held within the country.

And the UK's debt is not so short term. Countries such as Greece, Ireland and Portugal have average debt maturity rates of between six to eight years, but UK government debt stands out among international comparisons as being much longer term at well over 12 years on average.

This means that the UK has to ask the financial markets to refinance its debts much less frequently, making it less vulnerable to short-term speculative pressures and much more able to continue to finance its debts on a sustainable basis.

MYTH: The government shouldn't get into debt, just as your own household shouldn't

This overlooks the fact that, for the past 30 years, governments have positively encouraged households to get into debt.

In fact, it can be prudent for households to take on debt - particularly if they are borrowing to pay for something (a house or educational qualification) that might reasonably be expected to improve the household's income and well being in the long run.

In just the same way it is often sensible for governments to take on debt to pay for investments (such as housing or transport infrastructure) that will make the economy work better and so pay for themselves over the longer term.

But the public economy is also different from the household economy. What might make sense for a household could, for the government, deepen a recession. When times are hard households tend to tighten their belts - reducing their spending and borrowing. But if everyone does this at the same time, the effect is counterproductive: total demand for goods and services falls, which makes it harder for businesses and individuals to generate an income, and everyone ends up worse off.

This is exactly what is happening now, which is why it is essential for the government to compensate for households' reluctance to spend and invest.

MYTH: Public spending got 'out of control' under Labour

It is true that the Labour government gradually raised public spending in the early part of the decade, but it was from what were historically very low levels.

Levels of public spending are now about the same as they were in the early 1990s, at the time of the last economic crisis. This is because spending always rises during a recession as a result of welfare spending on unemployment.

In fact, levels of public spending as a proportion of GDP were much lower for most of the 2000s than they were than at any point since the 1960s.

Where Labour did spend more in the years after 2000, it was necessary to repair the visible effects of long-term under-investment. Who can forget schools and hospitals with buckets in the corner to catch the leaks, or grim city centre landscapes with crowds of homeless people sleeping rough?

Labour's increased spending also addressed workforce shortages in schools and the NHS, where more staff were needed to raise educational standards and care for an ageing population.

Rather than cutting such spending, the crisis could be an opportunity to build the infrastructure of a more energy-efficient, green economy. That would prepare us for the longer-term structural barriers to growth presented by climate change and the depletion of natural resources.

MYTH: The UK has a big public sector compared to other countries

Public spending in the UK is lower as a proportion of the economy than in the likes of France, Italy, Austria and Belgium, as well as the Scandinavian countries (OECD World Factbook 2010).

And spending on core areas such as health and education remains comparable or low in relation to other OECD (broadly speaking, 'rich') countries.

For example, the UK spent just 8.4 per cent of its GDP on health in 2007, roughly half that spent in the United States (once the large private sector is taken into account) and well behind Germany, France and most other west European nations.

On education, the UK again spends less per pupil than most comparable OECD countries.

The UK is not profligate in public spending and does not have an oversized public sector compared to similar countries.

MYTH: Spending on the public sector is 'crowding out' private sector growth

It is argued that public spending comes at the expense of overall growth, because potential investment is being re-directed into taxation to fund an 'unproductive' public sector. But in fact investment in public infrastructure and services is essential to private sector productivity, and so is no less critical to future growth than private sector investment.

Furthermore, the UK is not a highly taxed economy. The OECD's comparative figures on taxation as a proportion of overall economic output show the UK way down the list, only just above the average.

It is sometimes suggested that taxes hit the private sector in such a way as to discourage job growth. Again, though, the data shows the UK to have very low levels of taxation per job: far lower than the OECD average.

The second way in which the public sector might be said to be crowding out private sector growth is by taking workers it needs, but this would only really be the case where the labour market was operating close to full employment.

With the unemployment rate at about 8 per cent, this is clearly not the case. and in many areas of
public provision - from child protection, to education and training, to care for the elderly - there is a pressing need for more, not fewer, public service workers.

Finally, some argue that public investment 'crowds out' private investment, because government borrowing pushes up interest rates and inflation. But there is no evidence that this is currently a problem - real interest rates are low, and the economy is still operating well below its potential output, which means there is lots of room for non-inflationary public sector expansion.

In fact, in current circumstances, public spending is more likely to stimulate private sector investment by maintaining levels of demand and preventing a deeper collapse of economic activity.

MYTH: Public sector workers are overpaid

It is true that very recently average wages in the public sector have moved marginally above those in the private sector. This is mainly because privatisation has pushed many low-paid jobs out to the private sector.

The trend is not that public sector wages have risen sharply, but that private sector wages have fallen - a characteristic of the economic crisis. If we take a longer view, since the 1990s average public sector pay has not seen significantly more growth than the public sector.

And when private sector wages are split up to consider different sector and occupational patterns, a rather different picture emerges. Wage rates differ widely, with the average pulled down by very low wage sectors such as distribution, retail and hospitality.

What the data shows, therefore, is not that public sector workers are overpaid, but that some private sector workers are severely underpaid.
MYTH: Cutting public spending will help us avoid economic disaster

A range of economists, from Larry Elliott of the Guardian to Nobel prize winning professors like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, are warning that making cuts now raises the very real possibility of undermining the fragile economic recovery.

As every first year economics student knows, there are four main components of economic growth: (1) exports; (2) investment; (3) household spending; and (4) government spending.

Over the past two years, governments around the world have stepped in to bridge the gap in the first three by providing debt-financed public sector stimulus packages. There is precious little evidence that the private sector or households are ready or able to step up their activity to fill the gap, or that exports will increase in a world where our major trading partners are also reining in spending.

As such, any austerity programme may prematurely remove the foundations of the recovery and lead to a return to recession - a 'double dip'. This would be disastrous, not just for growth, but in turn for tax receipts and the capacity of the state to reduce the deficit and government debt.

How will that help to stabilise the world economy? How will it deal with the frequent, persistent and cumulative financial crises that are endemic to it, or overcome the pressing resource and environmental constraints that are so clear for all to see?
The economic crisis was a golden opportunity to move toward a more economically, socially and environmentally sustainable national and international economic system. For a while all countries were so concerned about the whole system that there was at least a chance to overcome narrow self-interest and look toward a more co-operative and sustainable future.

We are about to squander a once-in-a-generation opportunity for progressive change - unless, that is, we organise and campaign for an alternative

MYTH: There is no alternative to cuts

The beginnings of an alternative have already been discussed. For example, Unison's alternative budget ('We can afford a fairer society', Unison Alternative Budget 2010) suggests that almost £4.7 billion could be raised each year from introducing a 50 per cent tax rate on incomes over £100,000.

About £5 billion could be raised every year from a tax on vacant housing; £25 billion a year could be raised by closing tax loopholes; and the IPPR think-tank has estimated that a 'Robin Hood tax' on financial transactions could raise another £20 billion a year (T Dolphin, Financial Sector Taxes, IPPR 2010).

All these taxation measures would be 'progressive' in the sense that they would divert wealth from the rich to the poor, in contrast to measures such as the government's VAT increase, which hits the poor hardest.

In addition, some of these ideas might have behavioural advantages: they could work against destabilising speculative financial flows, or lead to fewer empty houses.

Similarly, we could look at spending that really should be cut. For example, while estimates of the true costs of replacing the Trident nuclear weapon system vary widely, they tend always to come in above £80 billion over 25 years.

Getting rid of the cost of the war in Afghanistan, massive consultancy fees on private finance deals and contractors' profits in privatised public services would also make a difference.

We could also decide to manage the deficit and public spending in a long-term manner, targeting social issues such as inequality, under-investment in education and child poverty, and strongly regulating international financiers, banks, hedge funds and the like.

All of these are political choices.

We don't have to live in a world where unemployment co-exists with a long-hours culture in which workers are so stressed that mental health problems are on the rise.

We don't have to live in a world where bankers gamble millions across the world in elaborate financial casinos at the same time as 1.4 billion people live on less than $1.25 a day.

We don't have to live in a world where there is no limit to how much of our collective economic output goes to the rich, yet others do not have enough to eat.

It is worth remembering that after the last crisis of this scale and significance, and with public debt something like three and a half times the size it is today, we established the NHS, created the welfare state, put in place comprehensive education and built a vast number of public housing estates.

History tells us that there is more than one way out of an economic crisis.

I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE THIS A MOST FAIR SUMMARY OF THE UK ECONOMY..



Thanks to my friend Dr Alex Nunn of Leeds Metropolitan University


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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by sickchip on Wed May 16, 2012 9:31 am

Good post, Stox.............plenty to think about there.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Wed May 16, 2012 10:16 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQYfPhtWpy8

Gideon squirming! lol The Myth busted!
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by sampbang on Wed May 16, 2012 11:50 am

Adele Carlyon wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQYfPhtWpy8

Gideon squirming! lol The Myth busted!

Brilliant video seen this a couple of times.

Thanks for the info above, very informative and answers my questions in the first post.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Mel on Wed May 16, 2012 1:57 pm

Many thanks Stoxy. Excellent!!!!!
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 16, 2012 5:49 pm

Fascinating to read a story told cogently and containing all the relevant detail.

However, we are persuaded by "sound bites" these days so the majority of people will glaze over and turn back to the Football before digesting the import.

Shame, that.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:34 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Fascinating to read a story told cogently and containing all the relevant detail.

However, we are persuaded by "sound bites" these days so the majority of people will glaze over and turn back to the Football before digesting the import.

Shame, that.

Hi Oftenwrong
Well all one can do is tell the real story. in other word take the horse to water, then its up to the horse if it wished to drink the water or not. but what is most important is that people have been told a lie. That is not fair on them at all. well not in my book it is not. if the Tory party wish's to debate economics with me I am alway free for them to do so. but not on the ground of an economic lie for there political ends. As for me people have the right to know why they are losing there Jobs and homes Oftenwrong. if this lie had been a Labour party lie then I would of still posted it just the same. as figures and fact do not lie. but how they are reported are a different matter altogether. its just how i happen to see economics.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:42 pm

Mel wrote:Many thanks Stoxy. Excellent!!!!!

Thanks Mel, but it just had to be said I believe. but thank you once more Very Happy

cheers Stox


Last edited by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:46 pm

sickchip wrote:Good post, Stox.............plenty to think about there.

Thank you Sickchip, Its just so important to me that this lie is finally put to bed. as its high time we address the real issues over the banking crisis and not this Tory party lie. as I have already said. people have every right to know why they are losing there jobs and homes. but your spot on there is plenty to think about here.

cheers Stox

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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by sickchip on Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:02 am

Recently it was announced that RBS and Lloyds will have shortly paid off the loans from the Government

And will the banks repay all the lost wages, provide jobs for all those lost, rehouse those re-possessed, etc etc. How will the banks pay for the lost careers, lost years of people's lives, young people's lost prospects, etc their reckless greed has caused?

What rate of interest should we charge for that?
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Mel on Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:15 pm

The news that Barclays have abused LIBOR, the interbank lending mechanism has thrown the spanner in the works for all the rhetoric by Cameron and Osborne that Brown did not regulate bank to bank lending.
What they will not tell you is that he couldn't no more than the Tories have since they were fortunately put in power two and a half years ago.

This latest Barclays news proves that the FSA never had the powers to stop irrisponsible bank to bank lending here in the UK nor internationally as global agreement was not achievable due mainly to the powers of the American banking sector and others.
Cameron and Co are now trying to use this Barclays event as an example of Labours failier to "regulate the banks". Seems they too have failed as I have pointed out numerous times.


Where Europe and America differ on global banking regulation.




It seemed that a new model for global governance had been forged in the white heat of the financial crisis. When the G7 gave way to the G20, leaders representing 80% of the world’s population began to call for a global policy response to the crisis. After governments opened the fiscal sluice gates, interest rates were slashed and the IMF was given additional resources. But now the ashes are cooling and senior U.S. officials are saying “NOBODY is going to tell us how to REGULATE our banks.” Different national perspectives are emerging in the area of international bank regulation.( Exrtact from an artical by Avinash Persaud.)

As I have said so many times, proper bank to bank regulation has been and will be vigourously rejected by powerful banks over their governments.
The US banks have the backing of US officials which makes the whole issue of bank to bank regulation impossible.

Don't be fooled by Camerons agressive apeasing public opinion on this matter as he can do little to regulate banks via the FSA alone without international agreement.
De-regulation started the crisis by Thatcher and Reagan with d-regulation which unlike regulation was easy to implement as the banking sectors welcomed d-regulation with open arms.

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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by astra on Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:14 pm

Mel?


Can the Glass Steagall act in USA and the regulation we HAD in UK be re-instated? pale
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Mel on Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:35 pm

"Mel?


Can the Glass Steagall act in USA and the regulation we HAD in UK be re-instated? "

Without agreement of the weathly bankers and frightened governments the answer astra my friend is simples--NO!!!!

A little like privatisation of nationalised utilities and such, once achieved impossible to reverse, especially when they have been sold of to overseas companies. Thanks again to the Witch.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:40 am

Mel wrote:"Mel?


Can the Glass Steagall act in USA and the regulation we HAD in UK be re-instated? "

Without agreement of the weathly bankers and frightened governments the answer astra my friend is simples--NO!!!!

A little like privatisation of nationalised utilities and such, once achieved impossible to reverse, especially when they have been sold of to overseas companies. Thanks again to the Witch.

Hello Mel
Well did you not know that the age of greed and culture of economic Irresponsibility never start in the 1980s under Maggot? its all start in the Tory History books under the last 13 years. in fact in there History books all the evils of the UK only ever happen under a Labour government time in office. As in there History books they are the only party they cleans up the economy. HA HA HA as they never get anything wrong at all. do they?

All the national debt is Labour's national debt? could never be anything to do with the Tory party

All the wars are Labour's wars? as they never take us into wars do they?

All the strikes are started when Labour's in power? Never see strikes when the Tories are in power do we?

All economic cock-ups are only found when Labour's in office? As the Tories are never in power when anything goes wrong?

All world banking crisis are only started when Labour party is in Office? Well Brown and Blair started all of this on there own? nothing to do with Maggot at all?

All City of London thieving and acts of greed are down to the last Labour government. nothing to do with the very fact they turned the financial sector into the wiled west with no lawman. No sir.. that Just does not matter at all.

All the inner City riots only happen when Labour is in power? The Poll tax riots, London riots, never happened you know in the Tory party history books?

yet as I understand it the Labour party has only been in power for what 35 years odd out of the last 100 years? who was the main cheerleaders for de-regulation? was that the Labour party too?

So Mel. How easy life is in a Tory party history book. But Mel can you just imagine what would of happened if a Trade Union had done what our Tory bankers had done today? What do you think all these Tory MPs would of said and done to that Union? Hell bells the leaders would be sent to jail and there would be law after law passed. However, if you a Tory banker you just up-set Gideon for a day or two and then its just BUSINESS AS USUAL.

What UTTER ROT THE RIGHT WING TALK.... ITS HIGH TIME THAT PEOPLE IN THE UK WOKE UP TO THIS BUNCH OF COWBOYS.

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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:29 am

Does anyone else remember the late 1980s, the time of filofaxes, red Porsches and even redder braces in the City of London?

That was a clue to the future.

Shame the Tory government of the day hadn't noticed.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Mel on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:30 am

"What UTTER ROT THE RIGHT WING TALK.... ITS HIGH TIME THAT PEOPLE IN THE UK WOKE UP TO THIS BUNCH OF COWBOYS."

Unfortunately my friend the British are very slow to wake up until it's too late.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Mel on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:37 am

Indeed I do remember those days OW. The Tories did notice and went along with it all, because they encourage greed.
Remember the "Hooray Henries"? moving in with their ill gotten cash, buying up all the repossessions where many poor souls were hit by the extortionate interest rates and as a concequence lost their homes. At least now thanks to Labour the BoE sets the base rate.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:40 am

oftenwrong wrote:Does anyone else remember the late 1980s, the time of filofaxes, red Porsches and even redder braces in the City of London?

That was a clue to the future.

Shame the Tory government of the day hadn't noticed.

God yes do.... I ever. it was like some big gold rush with lots of City of London investment banking prospectors smashing there way though people and there lives. as if the city Sheriff had died and the City was acting as some sort of UK closing down sale. Its was like saying live today and get some else to pay later. all the TV news seemed to go on about was this Share owning Democracy and this crazy idea that all you needed was lots of shares and you could almost give up work. hell even the music was about Money for nothing and your chicks for free. I had never even seen drugs till I saw investment banking in a club taking cocaine that cost more money than I was making at the time.
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:43 am

Mel wrote:Indeed I do remember those days OW. The Tories did notice and went along with it all, because they encourage greed.
Remember the "Hooray Henries"? moving in with their ill gotten cash, buying up all the repossessions where many poor souls were hit by the extortionate interest rates and as a concequence lost their homes. At least now thanks to Labour the BoE sets the base rate.

God forgot about Hooray Henries Mel. What was the name they gave the girls now?
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by tlttf on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:26 pm

I'm in the unfortunate position of having to agree with you Stox with one caveat, that all three parties have been involved and not just the one.

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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by astra on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:39 pm

What was the name they gave the girls now?


Was it - "Ladettes"
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Re: Is it right for bankers to act like this? Anyone for a cheap drink?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:44 pm

What decent ordinary working people want is a safe home for their savings.
Many of the existing Banks, almost without exception, have shown themselves to be unfit for that purpose.

Whoever comes up with a sensible and reliable alternative will leave the previous lot taking in each others' washing so as to have something to do.
Building Societies formerly filled the role, but would now require a change in the Law for them to operate with limited Capital in order to start up again.

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