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Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

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Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Did you know that this Tory lead coalition Government have cut the pensioners Winter Fuel Payment, they say, in a bid to save money and cut the Deficit. I write this because the BBC TV media have not picked up on it.

For the over 60’s, the coalition have cut £50 off the payment which was £250 a year, it is now £200, and for the over 80’s they have cut the Winter fuel payment by £100, taking it from £400 to £300. And I have to repeat that this cut in the Winter Fuel payment has not been picked up by the media. And both the cuts, and the media indifference is another national scandal.

The coalition have stated this cut is to save money and cut the Deficit. But it is not to save money. It is because the right wing are driven by an ideological hatred of the welfare state. It is an arrogance against the poor, against the old.

The very existence of the former New Labour Government’s Winter Fuel payment paid to 12 million pensioners, means that the basic State pension is not enough to live on, yet more than 30,000 UK pensioners have died of cold related illnesses since 1997.

The Unions have never taken up this issue up on behalf of Britain’s elderly people, and in my view this is because our elderly people have no labour to withdraw to grab the media’s attention.

Britain’s State retirement pension has lost value over the last 30 years, it is fast diminishing. It is way below the EU average of 57 per cent. The State pension in this country is set at just 17 per cent of average earnings.

The recent public sector pension strikes have proved what can be achieved when people are hit personally, now the public and private sectors should get together and support our elderly people for higher State pensions, even though this does not affect worker’s, yet

This and previous right wing Government’s, including New Labour, have managed to divide British workers from the pensioners of this country, and these Government’s have forced people into self interest. It is time this was reversed. But how to achieve this perpetual me, me, me attitude that has spawned from the Thatcher era around 30 years ago, that’s the problem, because this self interest is inherent.

Britain’s elderly people are the backbone of our nation, in longevity terms alone they have contributed more to this country than other age groups. But the attitude from politicians is as if our elderly people haven’t paid a penny.

But their taxes and NI contributions have indeed been contributed, the Welfare State, and the NHS was founded from pensioners taxes and NI contributions when they were working, yet this generation have fundamentally been ignored since the 80’s, 30 years ago.

The richest people in this country had done extremely well since the 80’s, whereas our elderly people have been robbed of their full State pension rights in the name of political dogma.

Where do we as a nation get off allowing this and previous right wing Government’s to treat our elderly people so badly ?

And it’s this time of year when poverty is keenly felt, but not by our politicians, who in my view have not got a clue.

As Christmas eve draws near and New year’s eve follows, the political history of Britain since the 80’s has frankly reduced been to decadence.

Growing a massive rich and poor divide, which was made worse by the New Labour Government.

And now this Tory lead coalition are hitting the poor again and again and all due to ideology.

I am ashamed of my fellow countrymen and woman for being laid back and reserved when it comes to others suffering from these decadent policies administered by our right wing politicians, who do not have to endure them, themselves.

And now I am worried about how many more elderly people are going to suffer untimely deaths through this cold weather ?

If the Tory’s really wanted to cut the Deficit, there are a number of ways they could achieve this, without hurting the
most vulnerable people in this country.

This Deficit cutting is one big excuse for Cameron to attack Britain’s most vulnerable people, and I cannot believe Nick Clegg is supporting this.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Redflag on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:39 pm

sickchip wrote:A message from our vainglorious leaders:


Times are hard! We're watching the pennies! We simply have to cut things like the winter fuel allowance, public sector jobs (livelihoods), housing benefit,etc.

Surely you understand that we need to build a new trainline that's costing £32billion (probably more).......surely you understand that it's essential and a priority........a priority above and beyond the welfare, health, education, etc of ordinary folk like you.......surely you understand that this £32billion will serve to make a very very small percentage of the populations (primarily business folk) travelling time ever so slightly more convenient and a little more comfy........suely you understand your taxes are being put to good use for the benefit of private companies.....surely you understand that!!?

You forgot to mention that the Tory BOYS like a TRAIN SET to play with, and Landsley is going to hand our NHS over to the private sector so that the private sector doctors can play with our NHS Hospitals to do all there private work to save them having to pay for hospital space.

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by bobby on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:58 pm

Bluey. I’m sorry but you have got the wrong end of the stick. I am an employer. I employ 7 people here in the UK and 9 full time 2 part time a several students in the summer in Italy. My belief is that those who are employed by the more unscrupulous organisations, need the Trades Unions or we will very quickly go back to Victorian Value’s. I don’t want that as I’m sure no politically left leaning person does, I’m not sure about you more moderate Tory‘s, but am convinced that the hard line Tory would welcome anything that will make them a profit. Those with an obsession with the Trades Unions are you Tories, you are the ones who refuse to negotiate, properly, then blame the Unions for taking action because the government is totally intransigent.
I don’t know what you believe a Trades Union to be, many see or choose to see it as a few leaders causing trouble. The Trades Unions are a very large collection of workers who individually has no power and get ripped off. But when they get together and form a Union, via elected spokesmen they get a voice. They are certainly more democratic than our present Government.
As for Mr Callahan, he had no chance. I remember being at Flat Iron Square in The Borough, London, and saw a group of people dragging black rubbish bags from all over the place and putting them in large piles, for photographers to take pictures of. Those self same picture appeared in either the Evening News or the Standard, I cant remember which. This to me proved that the so called winter of discontent, although not nice, wasn’t as bad as the Tory controlled press would have us believe. Yes the Tory’s where masters of dirty tricks back then, and nuffins changed.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:00 pm

Redflag...What part of the NHS is being privatised or handed over to the private sector?

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by atv on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:10 pm

[quote="Ivanhoe She sold off council houses, but didnt build any more. Hence homelessness today
She cut the State pensions link to increases in national prosperity. Hence old age poverty today.
She got rid of our manufacturing, and industry, and brought in short term, low waged, insecure jobs.
She privatised our Utilities, hence millions of ordinary people struggle to pay the high charges.

Regarding council houses and the state pensions, I believe blueturando answered that. Most of the Thatcher policies you are unhapy with could have been changed or reversed in 13 years of New Labour....why did your party not do this?

Regarding manufacturing, industry and that She privatised our Utilities.
I'm sure we've been here before, but just so people don't get the wrong impression:

Manufacturing in Britain went into decline in the 60s, started mainly by the inability of management to produce the correct products at a competitive price, resulting in intransigent management up against intransigent Trade Unions, result a huge loss in our manufacturing base, never to be recovered.
As post-war Germany and Japan grew their industries, and competition from other countries increased it was only natural that manufacturing would decline in Britain. After all, it's hardly cost effective to ship huge amounts of raw materials to Britain and pay relatively high wages for the same (or worse) productivity that could be obtained abroad for far less money. By the 80s, manufacturing was practically non-existant as a competitive industry and the public industries were bleeding money. Privatisation of loss-making companies save the taxpayer millions.

Mining.
The arrival of extremely cheap strip mining in Norway and Australia, along with increased production of the cleaner, more efficient natural gas from the North Sea fields led to the inevitable reduction in government spending on british coal. Arthur Scargill and his militant friends were unhappy at the closure of a few pits and so turned a relatively unimportant event into the most memorable issue of the 80s. By waging war on government and the rule of law, Scargill forced Thatcher to meet him head on. In the process, Scargill managed to win unemployment for the majority of miners - people who trusted him to look out for their interests and were betrayed by him.

Which brings us to Unions.
Lead by Blood-sucking scum earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. I've never understood why, if the unions knew so much about running a business, they didn't set up their own companies and succeed in the marketplace.


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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:15 pm

blueturando wrote:Most of the Thatcher policies you are unhapy with could have been changed or reversed in 13 years of New Labour....why did your party not do this?
Why didn't Labour have a better building program for Council housing during the boom years?
Why didn't Labour give the Unions back their teeth?
Why didn't they re-link the state pension to inflation or earnings, instead of cutting pension increases and replacing that with a winter fuel allowance that many people are in no need of due to their financial position?

Did New Labour fail it's supporters???

"New" Labour were formed to appease the middle classes who had ditched traditional Labour's core values of decency and fairness through the 80's and 90's and jumped on Thatcher's bandwagon of unfairness, greed, and selfishness.

And thats the answer to all your questions.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:37 pm

atv wrote:
[quote="Ivanhoe She sold off council houses, but didnt build any more. Hence homelessness today
She cut the State pensions link to increases in national prosperity. Hence old age poverty today.
She got rid of our manufacturing, and industry, and brought in short term, low waged, insecure jobs.
She privatised our Utilities, hence millions of ordinary people struggle to pay the high charges.

Regarding council houses and the state pensions, I believe blueturando answered that. Most of the Thatcher policies you are unhapy with could have been changed or reversed in 13 years of New Labour....why did your party not do this?

Regarding manufacturing, industry and that She privatised our Utilities.
I'm sure we've been here before, but just so people don't get the wrong impression:

Manufacturing in Britain went into decline in the 60s, started mainly by the inability of management to produce the correct products at a competitive price, resulting in intransigent management up against intransigent Trade Unions, result a huge loss in our manufacturing base, never to be recovered.
As post-war Germany and Japan grew their industries, and competition from other countries increased it was only natural that manufacturing would decline in Britain. After all, it's hardly cost effective to ship huge amounts of raw materials to Britain and pay relatively high wages for the same (or worse) productivity that could be obtained abroad for far less money. By the 80s, manufacturing was practically non-existant as a competitive industry and the public industries were bleeding money. Privatisation of loss-making companies save the taxpayer millions.

Mining.
The arrival of extremely cheap strip mining in Norway and Australia, along with increased production of the cleaner, more efficient natural gas from the North Sea fields led to the inevitable reduction in government spending on british coal. Arthur Scargill and his militant friends were unhappy at the closure of a few pits and so turned a relatively unimportant event into the most memorable issue of the 80s. By waging war on government and the rule of law, Scargill forced Thatcher to meet him head on. In the process, Scargill managed to win unemployment for the majority of miners - people who trusted him to look out for their interests and were betrayed by him.

Which brings us to Unions.
Lead by Blood-sucking scum earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. I've never understood why, if the unions knew so much about running a business, they didn't set up their own companies and succeed in the marketplace.



""Arthur Scargill and his militant friends were unhappy at the closure of a few pits"" . Are you from this planet ?
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by bobby on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Did New Labour fail its supporters???

The simple answer must be yes. We had a New Labour Government that In my opinion where too right wing, That said, they still did a lot of good, we had 10 years of economic growth, and lets be fair Blue, no one, not even Vince cable (despite his feeble claims) saw the economic crash caused by the Bankers. Had it not been for the Credit Crunch, New Labour would have romped home, but the Tory Media had other idea’s. The winter Fuel allowance was introduced, they got rid of the two year plus waiting lists for urgent Cardiac surgery, in fact they got rid of most hospital waiting lists. To rid us og these killer waiting lists, the use some private companies, and have been vilified by your Tory’s ever since, of course your Tory’s didn’t mind the people dieing on the waiting lists as they all had access to private medicine. they introduced the Social Chapter giving employee’s proper rights and entitlements. Be honest Blue, you know as well as I do as to the good New Labour did. I recon New Labour would have won the last election hands down. No one was more surprised than Herr Cameron when he found himself in a position to sell principles and end up in No 10. If you recall, which I’m sure you do. Right through Herr Camerons campaign he had almost zilch by way of policy, the only two I can think of where to Lower inheritance Tax to further enrich millionaires such as himself and the rest who now find themselves on his front bench. The other was to repeal the fox hunting ban. Both of these policies haven’t yet seen the light of day, as he is spending all his time introducing policies he said he wouldn’t. So if New Labour may have let some down, Herr Cameron is shafting all but the wealthiest.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:50 pm

bobby wrote:Did New Labour fail its supporters???

The simple answer must be yes. We had a New Labour Government that In my opinion where too right wing, That said, they still did a lot of good, we had 10 years of economic growth, and lets be fair Blue, no one, not even Vince cable (despite his feeble claims) saw the economic crash caused by the Bankers. Had it not been for the Credit Crunch, New Labour would have romped home, but the Tory Media had other idea’s. The winter Fuel allowance was introduced, they got rid of the two year plus waiting lists for urgent Cardiac surgery, in fact they got rid of most hospital waiting lists. To rid us og these killer waiting lists, the use some private companies, and have been vilified by your Tory’s ever since, of course your Tory’s didn’t mind the people dieing on the waiting lists as they all had access to private medicine. they introduced the Social Chapter giving employee’s proper rights and entitlements. Be honest Blue, you know as well as I do as to the good New Labour did. I recon New Labour would have won the last election hands down. No one was more surprised than Herr Cameron when he found himself in a position to sell principles and end up in No 10. If you recall, which I’m sure you do. Right through Herr Camerons campaign he had almost zilch by way of policy, the only two I can think of where to Lower inheritance Tax to further enrich millionaires such as himself and the rest who now find themselves on his front bench. The other was to repeal the fox hunting ban. Both of these policies haven’t yet seen the light of day, as he is spending all his time introducing policies he said he wouldn’t. So if New Labour may have let some down, Herr Cameron is shafting all but the wealthiest.

New Labour ditched it's core values and fully embraced Thatcher's righty wing free market ideoligy for 13 years. Blair and Brown sold British Labour values down the river.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:19 pm

The Labour Party was rescued by a series of leaders begining with Neil Kinnock, and the Labour Party was elected as the party of government for a record 3 times under Tony Blair, the most successful period for Labour ever.

The so called "core Labour values" which the archaic, old fashioned and hard-line socialists refer to, is the unelectable Labour Party which most people ( including myself ) rejected, it was a party of millitants, outdated policies based on silly, unworkable socialism.

It was these same people who were directly responsible for the election of Margaret Thatcher, the general public were sick, tired and totaly fed up with the unions and millitants - the winter of discontent - unreasonable wage demands - wildcat strikes - power cuts - three day week etc etc.

I am a Labour voter and a Labour supporter, but I never want to go back to the old style Labour Party, and if Labour ever goes back in that direction, then you will guarantee the Conservatives more victories.

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:26 pm

QUOTE: "Most of the Thatcher policies you are unhapy with could have been changed or reversed in 13 years of New Labour....why did your party not do this?"

This old ghost was laid to rest in many pages of discussion over a long period of time on the MSN "Politics" message-board, but although dead, the corpse won't lie down.

Blair's New Labour was well aware of people's disgust at the way every change of Administration seems to waste time and money on dismantling everything put in by the previous lot. It has re-emerged this week in the US Presidential caucus by Republican boasts to repeal everything which Obama has introduced.

.... he marched them up to the top of the hill, and he marched them down again.

There is no shortage of Tory plans to weaken the will of their opposition, but many of the changes made in the 1980s were not reversible without a wasteful hemorrhage of money.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Redflag on Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:30 pm

blueturando wrote:Redflag...What part of the NHS is being privatised or handed over to the private sector?

There is quite a lot of it NHS doctors are going to have do 49% of looking after private patients so that they can afford to attend too the NHS patients, if its not making money TOUGH its closed down Landsley has said it has to make money and that is not what the NHS was created for even now the waiting list time has shot up and that is another post code lottery depending where you live some people are having to wait 18 weeks before they are seen at the hospital and this is shameful, we have seen recently what is happening within the wards that contain old and frail people so that is what we all have too look forward not unless you have the money to go private.

And before you ask I do not believe one single word that this Gov't says it has proved before that it enjoys the odd lie here and there, I used to think the private sector was OK until lately I know that businesses are in it too make a profit and I don't begrudge that profit but that is not enough for SOME businesses they are just becoming greedy. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:50 pm

An unavoidable element of every decision is the cost/benefit calculation.

Although obviously present in the NHS it is not necessarily the deciding factor.

Can anyone seriously argue that it would never be a consideration in Private Medicine?
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:47 pm

witchfinder wrote:The Labour Party was rescued by a series of leaders begining with Neil Kinnock, and the Labour Party was elected as the party of government for a record 3 times under Tony Blair, the most successful period for Labour ever.

The so called "core Labour values" which the archaic, old fashioned and hard-line socialists refer to, is the unelectable Labour Party which most people ( including myself ) rejected, it was a party of millitants, outdated policies based on silly, unworkable socialism.

It was these same people who were directly responsible for the election of Margaret Thatcher, the general public were sick, tired and totaly fed up with the unions and millitants - the winter of discontent - unreasonable wage demands - wildcat strikes - power cuts - three day week etc etc.

I am a Labour voter and a Labour supporter, but I never want to go back to the old style Labour Party, and if Labour ever goes back in that direction, then you will guarantee the Conservatives more victories.


I became a Labour activist and supporter from 1987, because I was appauled at Thatcher's right wing policies. But contrary to whom im responding to, I am indeed hoping that Milliband will find a way for Labour to return to their core values.

The only other way Labour can go is continued Blair/Brownism, which is nothing more than continued Thatcherism.

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:19 pm

Blair/Brownism is by now unelectable, a fully recognised fact within the present Opposition, therefore unlikely to be sustained. The question to be answered by Ed Milliband is "Quo Vadis?"
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:46 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Blair/Brownism is by now unelectable, a fully recognised fact within the present Opposition, therefore unlikely to be sustained. The question to be answered by Ed Milliband is "Quo Vadis?"

If Blarism and Brownism in unelectable, and Labour's core values according to some, are also unelectable, then what is the alternative ?
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:50 pm

Aren't we all glad not to be Ed Milliband, just now?
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:54 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Aren't we all glad NOT to be Ed Milliband, just now?

I kid you not, if I were in Milliband's shoes, I would tell my advisers to go bury their heads, and I would say to the media, everything I have said on here.

Britain is in pigshit because our politicians are playing court to Britain's middle classes. Frankly I would and could not get into politics holding my intregrity in place, if I had to bow and scrape to anybody, let alone middle england.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:38 pm

The future for the left in Britain is as a Social Democratic political party which supports a free economy, a free market and capitalism but with the added extras of social justice - corporate responsibility and a strong belief in fairness and equality.

The old left is "Red & Dead"

If Ed Miliband attempts to take the Labour Party backwards to the policies of yesteryear then the party may just aswell take on the policies of the Monster Raving Looney Party.

The most successful economies of both the world and Europe are run or dominated by moderate left of centre "Social Democratic" political parties.
Even the Conservatives in Germany subscribe to the "Social Market Economy" principles of decent welfare, workers rights, sensible regulation and fairness.

I think that British people have got to get over this "class" thing, its not criminal to be successful and to make lots of money, however it is criminal to make the the less well off in society pay proportionaly more towards the nations debt problems - which is what this government obviously believes.

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:58 pm

witchfinder wrote:The future for the left in Britain is as a Social Democratic political party which supports a free economy, a free market and capitalism but with the added extras of social justice - corporate responsibility and a strong belief in fairness and equality.

The old left is "Red & Dead"

If Ed Miliband attempts to take the Labour Party backwards to the policies of yesteryear then the party may just aswell take on the policies of the Monster Raving Looney Party.

The most successful economies of both the world and Europe are run or dominated by moderate left of centre "Social Democratic" political parties.
Even the Conservatives in Germany subscribe to the "Social Market Economy" principles of decent welfare, workers rights, sensible regulation and fairness.

I think that British people have got to get over this "class" thing, its not criminal to be successful and to make lots of money, however it is criminal to make the the less well off in society pay proportionaly more towards the nations debt problems - which is what this government obviously believes.


On the face of it, I believe this is an excellent posting. But "class" will never leave Britain, it is too entrenched, it is basically our downfall. The other downfall is that because Europe's State education systems are very well funded, because EU citizens pay higher income tax than we do, and their Government's use a greater role of the State re- GNP, the EU populations are well educated, and politically educated, whereas Britain's working classes are largely neither, in my personal opinion.

I have long been a pro-European because I believe in Europe's Social Charter which speaks for it'self.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:13 pm

I have long been a pro-European because I believe in Europe's Social Charter which speaks for it'self.

I second that motion

To be a forward thinker, a libertarian, a person who can grasp what the future could be, is a European - someone who understands the "European dream".

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:35 pm

witchfinder wrote:I have long been a pro-European because I believe in Europe's Social Charter which speaks for it'self.

I second that motion

To be a forward thinker, a libertarian, a person who can grasp what the future could be, is a European - someone who understands the "European dream".


Someone should tell Ed Milliband.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:57 pm

Witchfinder......Excellent posting!!!!

I do not envy Ed Millbands position. I think the Labour party are at a crossroads and not sure which road to take. Tony Blair made the party electable again, but at the cost of traditional Labour values (He even stopped me from voting Tory in 97) For all his faults Blair was a very canny politician and he new how to grab votes away from the Tories....by lurching firmly to the centre ground. Blair would have given the coalition a more torrid time than Millaband in PMQ because he knew where he wanted to take the Labour Party.... I don't believe Millaband has the same conviction.
I think Ed would really like to take the party back towards more traditional values, but I also think he's knows that they would lose a great deal of voters ( Like Witchfinder ) if they did.....Catch 22


Last edited by blueturando on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:57 pm

The first "European Dream" was to have A thousand-year Reich.

Anyone remember how that turned out?
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:01 pm

The European dream that is being played out without the main players admitting it, is to create a european country....One size fits all if you like. This will never happen and doomed to failure. We are all too different and also suspicious of a ever more powerful Germany, with the French as their faithfull, but misguided pooch

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:11 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The first "European Dream" was to have A thousand-year Reich.

Anyone remember how that turned out?

Okay, your stuck in the past. Europe arent.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:19 pm

blueturando wrote:The European dream that is being played out without the main players admitting it, is to create a european country....One size fits all if you like. This will never happen and doomed to failure. We are all too different and also suspicious of a ever more powerful Germany, with the French as their faithfull, but misguided pooch

The European dream is all different EU countries, all with their own indenties, working within the framework of a Social Democracy.

Im a British citizen, born in the late 1940's, and I believe that Germany and France are doing a good job of trying to maintain Europe's Social Democracy within the Euro', which we dont have. Britain is on the outside, looking in. And it's costing us £50 plus million a day.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:29 pm

blueturando wrote:Witchfinder......Excellent posting!!!!

I do not envy Ed Millbands position. I think the Labour party are at a crossroads and not sure which road to take. Tony Blair made the party electable again, but at the cost of traditional Labour values (He even stopped me from voting Tory in 97) For all his faults Blair was a very canny politician and he new how to grab votes away from the Tories....by lurching firmly to the centre ground. Blair would have given the coalition a more torrid time than Millaband in PMQ because he knew where he wanted to take the Labour Party.... I don't believe Millaband has the same conviction.
I think Ed would really like to take the party back towards more traditional values, but I also think he's knows that they would lose a great deal of voters ( Like Witchfinder ) if they did.....Catch 22

Hi, There is one thing for sure. Both right wing New Labour, the right wing Tories, and the Lib-Dems are finished. So what's next ?

Im all for a party that looks after with dignity, the old, the ill, and the disabled. Plus I want Social housing built universially, and a higher minimum wage, a fair tax system , and State pensions relinked directly with any national prosperity, with an end to means testing, plus the return of an industrial and manufacturing base in Britain.

Because anything less will be staying with what we have now, and have had since the 80's.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:37 pm

Ivanhoe.....Like me, I don't believe most people who vote Tory want a' Right Wing' Tory party....somewhere near the centre ground will do nicely thank you.

Do you really believe that all Tory voters are right wing?

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:39 pm

I do not believe New Labour was right wing either. You cannot claim that anyone who isn't far left in their thinking must be right wing, because they are not

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:49 pm

blueturando wrote:I do not believe New Labour was right wing either. You cannot claim that anyone who isn't far left in their thinking must be right wing, because they are not

Hi, of course New Labour were right wing, having embraced Thatcher's fundamental right wing free market policies from 1997. If you want me to name the policies, again. I will.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by astra on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:49 pm

Im all for a party that looks after with dignity, the old, the ill, and the disabled. Plus I want Social housing built universially, and a higher minimum wage, a fair tax system , and State pensions relinked directly with any national prosperity, with an end to means testing, plus the return of an industrial and manufacturing base in Britain.


A dream?, I do not think so

Here in Tyne and Wear, the bit that used to be in County Durham! (The other 'bit' used to be in Northumberland) I am sitting on zillions of tonnes of unharvested coal, It was OW who said on here - "Well, that may be just dandy for our grandchildren to exploit" I do hope his thinking is down the right lines!
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:02 am

Hi, of course New Labour were right wing

Then I guess most of the country and the free world must be right wing too and left leaning thinking is dead in the water

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:20 am

Well one thing is for sure - I agree with Ivanhoe regarding social housing, I believe that New Labour did not do enough, and its something we look to a Labour government to do, we expect a Labour government to do something for those at the bottom of the housing ladder.

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:30 am

Some people seem to be crying for the Moon. We can't have what we can't afford - the proof of which was provided in September 2008.

Only a prosperous future will improve the Nation's standard of living, which is not likely to be brought about by Gideon's philosophy If thy nose offend thee, cut it off!.

Some of those in the know report that successful British companies are hoarding some £150billion as cash reserves because there is no confidence to invest in anything right now. Banks decline to lend to each other even overnight because only Central Banks are trusted.

America is slowly getting back on course, and the £ weakens against the US$ every day. Perhaps we're too concerned with local affairs.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:15 am

witchfinder wrote:Well one thing is for sure - I agree with Ivanhoe regarding social housing, I believe that New Labour did not do enough, and its something we look to a Labour government to do, we expect a Labour government to do something for those at the bottom of the housing ladder.


Agreed. New Labour continued Margaret Thatcher's low income tax deregulated free market. New Labour did not have the universial social housing programme they should have had. Infact New Labour by way of Thatcherism, mocked traditional Labour and it's core values of fairness and decency.

Following Thatcher's ruination of Britain, what my country needed were the type of Social reforms that happened under Attle after the second World War, when we were bankrupt, yet we managed the NHS, the welfare State, and council housing on mass for people who could not afford to buy.

Today Britain remains a very wealthy country, even if some people are brainwashed to the contrary.



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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:23 am

oftenwrong wrote:Some people seem to be crying for the Moon. We can't have what we can't afford - the proof of which was provided in September 2008.

Only a prosperous future will improve the Nation's standard of living, which is not likely to be brought about by Gideon's philosophy If thy nose offend thee, cut it off!.

Some of those in the know report that successful British companies are hoarding some £150billion as cash reserves because there is no confidence to invest in anything right now. Banks decline to lend to each other even overnight because only Central Banks are trusted.

America is slowly getting back on course, and the £ weakens against the US$ every day. Perhaps we're too concerned with local affairs.

Prosperity, will never happen for America or Britain's poor. But both countries are well able to spend billions fighting foreign wars to kill people. But cannot find money to keep people alive, off the breadline, away from soup kitchens, and homeless. Strange that.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:46 am

With regards to housing, its a basic need, a basic requirement, a home, infact its a right.

The Conservatives seem to believe that homes should be provided by people who make a profit, there ought to be no such thing as social housing, no requirement to provide based on need, but rather based on "the market" meaning affordability and profitability.

A rent of £80.00 per week for a modest family home would generate over £20,000 in just 5 years, the average cost of building a new home is between £450 / £650 per square metre - work it out for yourself.

In a civilized society, and in a wealthy nation, its criminal that people who can afford a fair rent are living in inadequate homes, and in squaler.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by bobby on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:55 am

Absolutely correct Ivanhoe. I have just read the Tory's latest populist idea:

MSN
"The Government has unveiled measures to protect the public from "heavy-handed" bailiffs.

Justice Minister Jonathan Djanogly outlined updated national standards to define acceptable behaviour.

They are designed to tackle intimidatory and threatening conduct, and prevent bailiffs from misrepresenting their powers.

Councils and other authorities will adopt the standards which will be used to set rules for any bailiffs working for them.

Mr Djanogly said: "Bailiffs are an important part of the justice system so the few unscrupulous bailiffs must be stopped from putting people in harm's way or taking advantage of the vulnerable. We want to bring an end to the rogue behaviour that can make people's lives a misery."

If this crap Tory Led Coalition really want to stop some of this bullying, surely the best way would be, to create growth and jobs, then these poor unfortunates wouldn’t have to face the slime that call themselves Bailiffs.
My daughter in law is in the process of claiming back her PPI, she made the claim herself directly to the bank, this was back in August 2011. She is still waiting for a response, yet if someone owes the banks any money, they are on your case almost instantly, with the Bailiffs following shortly after.
Back in the eighties (Thatcher’s Britain) my business along with thousands of others went squit and I had to sell my House to keep me from bankruptcy, interim I contacted the bank to try to sort things out, all they did was to put a deadline on my debt, before the house got sold (well under value) and a bit more correspondence, they sent the bailiffs round. Fortunately for me I am bigger and have the propensity to be meaner and more violent than the lowlifes at my door, I quietly (sort of) told them that if they enter my home, they wouldn’t be leaving it, with that I guess they tried to squeeze some money out of some elderly woman somewhere else. My wife whilst this was going on was becoming a nervous wreck, so I contacted the bank again, telling them of my wife’s situation, and that should her condition worsen by the bare face threats, I would take legal action. They waited whilst my home was sold.
My point is that the wankers they send to your door to collect cash or goods are in effect cowards and prey on those without influence or muscle. They are along with those that send them, the scum of the earth, almost as bad as Tory’s.

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by blueturando on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:00 pm

I agree Witchfinder, but both New Labour and the Coalition have failed to tackle this problem.
The target obsessed New Labour Government continuously failed to meet their building programme targets and It doesn't look like the coalition will be any better.

I would like to see more done about empty properties...IE: a law brought in to say any property left empty for 1 year or longer becomes property of the council and can only be used for social housing

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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:11 pm

witchfinder wrote:With regards to housing, its a basic need, a basic requirement, a home, infact its a right.

The Conservatives seem to believe that homes should be provided by people who make a profit, there ought to be no such thing as social housing, no requirement to provide based on need, but rather based on "the market" meaning affordability and profitability.

A rent of £80.00 per week for a modest family home would generate over £20,000 in just 5 years, the average cost of building a new home is between £450 / £650 per square metre - work it out for yourself.

In a civilized society, and in a wealthy nation, its criminal that people who can afford a fair rent are living in inadequate homes, and in squaler.

Thatcher turned Britain into a profiteering nation, greed ridden, selfish nation, the fast buck ethos, and this is a fact. Again, I would never refere to Thatcher, or Cameron's right wing Tories as "Conservatives". Decent one nation Conservatism died when Ted Heath passed away. Thatcher and Cameron's model is a disgrace to any country that boasts of civilised values.
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Re: Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:33 pm

blueturando wrote:I agree Witchfinder, but both New Labour and the Coalition have failed to tackle this problem.
The target obsessed New Labour Government continuously failed to meet their building programme targets and It doesn't look like the coalition will be any better.

I would like to see more done about empty properties...IE: a law brought in to say any property left empty for 1 year or longer becomes property of the council and can only be used for social housing

Thatcher gave Social housing a bad name, just like she gave the elderly a bad name, the unemployed a bad name, the disabled a bad name, she was a moderrn day Hitler, Thatcher demonised people, and she encouraged her followers and the rest of Britain to do the same.

Britain needs another Attlee, to bring in the social reforms we saw after the war, when we were bankrupt, yet we started building because we had the "will" to do so.

Today there is no "will", because the Tories are economists, they are not Socialists.
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