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Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

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Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Ivan on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:53 pm

Silly question, isn’t it? Unless you live in Orlando, where members of Orlando Food Not Bombs were arrested when police said they violated a city ordinance by feeding the homeless in Lake Eola Park.

Jessica Cross, Benjamin Markeson and Jonathan McHenry were arrested on a charge of violating the ordinance restricting group feedings in public parks. McHenry is a co-founder of the international Food Not Bombs movement, which began in the early 1980s.

Douglas Coleman, speaking for Orlando Food Not Bombs, said: "They basically carted them off to jail for feeding hungry people”. Orlando Food Not Bombs has been feeding the homeless breakfast on Mondays for several years and dinner on Wednesdays for five years.

Police did not enforce the ordinance while the court battle continued. The U.S. District Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta ruled that city rules regulating how often large groups of people can be fed in a park do not violate the Constitution. The penalty for violating Orlando's ordinance is 60 days in jail, a $500 fine or both.

How strange that this could happen in the most religious country in the Western world, where so many people subscribe to stories such as Jesus feeding 5,000 hungry men (no women) with loaves and fishes…(John 6:1-15)

Source used:-
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/crime/os-homeless-feedings-arrests-20110601,0,7226362.story


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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by astra on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:08 pm

Religion/Charity is only what the "deliverer" wants/requires them to be!! Twisted Evil
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:09 pm


Proposals for a ban on soup runs and rough sleeping in a part of the centre of the capital have sparked a political row.

Westminster City Council is seeking to pass a bylaw that would prohibit soup runs from operating in a designated area around Westminster Cathedral.

Labour councillors have attacked the proposal as 'cold-hearted and callous' but the council says soup kitchens perpetuate homelessness and insists it has the support of interested charities.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361198/Callous-council-wants-ban-soup-kitchens-homeless.html#ixzz1hJ9J8uIh
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Ivan on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:39 pm

the council says soup kitchens perpetuate homelessness
Yes, that sounds like typical Toryspeak, mustn't encourage dependency etc. No doubt Westminster Tories would prefer it if these poor souls died of hunger, then they would no longer be "perpetuating homelessness".
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by bobby on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:54 pm

Yes, that sounds like typical Toryspeak, mustn't encourage dependency etc. No doubt Westminster Tories would prefer it if these poor souls died of hunger, then they would no longer be "perpetuating homelessness".

Or move to Barnsley.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by astra on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:27 am

paupers graves to be on the increase?

Possibly

OR

The Ribblehead Viaduct on the Settle Carlisle line goes over boggy land. The foudations for the many arches are laid on hundreds of Seep carcases. NOW this could be an idea for the flyovers for the new high speed line from Londing to Brumminham! The British Rail network is already described as a rich man's toy (sorry Shirina) so by extension a Conservative exclusive service!! Rolling Eyes

Whoops!

Dyer think I've given 'em an idea? OR all these corpses could be used to heat the Redditch Conservative Council Swimming Pooll


Bories Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by ROB on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:11 am


Ivan,

Several corrections.

Ivan wrote:
Police did not enforce the ordinance while the court battle continued.

Having not followed this sorry, I am left to infer that the organization, “Orlando Food Not Bombs”, knew o their violation and knew that they wasn’t being prosecuted for their violation while what I infer to be their federal civil suit against the City of Orlando was being heard by first a U.S. District Court and then a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. This process usually takes some time, so I would guess, based upon these inferences, that Orlando Food Not Bombs personnel knew that if the circuit court ruled that there was no constitutional violation, then they would be arrested and possibly prosecuted for any further illegal activity.

If you know that the Grand Canyon is a mile deep and you jump anyway, “that Bud’s on you.”

Ivan wrote:
The U.S. District Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta ruled that city rules regulating how often large groups of people can be fed in a park do not violate the Constitution.

The U.S. 11th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled correctly. There is no violation of the United States Constitution.

Misconceptions thereto notwithstanding, the Sovereign State of Georgia has a sovereign government co-owned by We the People of Georgia. I do not use the term “sovereign” casually; I use it intentionally, precisely, and accurately. As one of the several sovereign states, Georgia has two constitutions. One, the US Constitution, is the supreme law of both the Sovereign Government of Georgia and the Sovereign Government of the United States; as such, any law passed by either sovereign entity must be consistent with the US Constitution to be valid.

Orlando, a creation of the Sovereign Government of Georgia, is empowered by said sovereign government to enact ordinances such as the one in question. Since, as per Amendment 10. United States Constitution, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” A quick perusal of the United States Constitution, from Preamble to Amendment 27, reveals the correctness of the court’s ruling, as the Constitution neither delegates to the United States the power to regulate how often large groups of people can be fed in a public park nor prohibits from Georgia the power to regulate how often large groups of people can be fed in a public park, Orlando, deriving its legislative powers from Georgia, does indeed possess the power to regulate how often large groups of people can be fed in an Orlando public park.

There is neither need nor cause for national or cross pond alarm at a city exercising its sovereign state-granted power to regulate how often large groups of people can be fed in a public park. We are a nation wherein all are equal under the law. The ordinance meets this test; if it did not, the 11th Circuit Court would have ruled differently. Orlando Food Not Bombs is not excepted from adherence to this ordinance.

Ivan wrote:
How strange that this could happen in the most religious country in the Western world, where so many people subscribe to stories such as Jesus feeding 5,000… with loaves and fishes…(John 6:1-15)

Not strange at all that a nation composed of many people who respect God’s Word would do so by acting in accordance with God’s Word.

“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God” (Romans 13:1).

Ivan wrote:
… Jesus feeding 5,000 hungry men (no women) with loaves and fishes…(John 6:1-15)

As per long-established practice (see enumeration of the nation in Numbers), men twenty years of age and older were enumerated. An examination of the Greek text (transliterated) reveals the truth.

“Jesus said, ‘Have the people sit down.’ Now there was much grass in the place, so the men sat down, in number about five thousand” (John 6:8-9).

people, Greek anthrōpos, human being.

men, Greek anēr, adult male, husband, man.

Jesus had the anthrōpos, the people, sit down. How many people/anthrōpos? John doesn’t tell us this; in the tradition of the times, he enumerates the anēr, the adult males, presuming that the reader understands the difference between anthrōpos and anēr. In fact, the lad spoken of here by Andrew…

“One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to him, ‘There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are these for so many people?’” (John 6:8-9)

… was not enumerated among the five thousand anēr, adult males.

lad, Greek paidarion, a little boy, a lad.

We do know that the entire group of anthrōpos, the human beings, including anēr, the adult males, and paidarion, the little boy, the lad, was great.

“… and a great multitude followed him…” (John 6:2).

multitude, Greek ochlos, a throng, a company, a multitude, a number (of people).

Given that the ochlos, the multitude, no doubt included women and children, the total fed that day by five barley loaves and two fish might easily have exceeded twenty thousand, presuming an average of one wife and two children per anēr, per adult male.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Shirina on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:32 am

the council says soup kitchens perpetuate homelessness

I can just hear millions of Britons right now saying, "Well Hell's Bells, Margaret, let's sell our warm and comfortable home, our cozy bed, and our well-stocked kitchen and instead sleep in a cardboard box in a garbage-strewn alley during the middle of winter so we can get ourselves some soup! Had I known we could get free food before, I never would have gone to all this trouble with comfort and security. Homelessness sounds mighty fine just as long as I can get a ladle of that soup!"

Yes, Mr. Tory, people are going to be homeless whether you feed them or not. Or perhaps the Tories are stupid enough to believe that soup kitchens were established first and people quit their jobs and voluntarily became homeless in response to the soup. Well, we ARE talking about Tories so ...
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Ivan on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:59 am

Rock. You seem to be missing the point of the thread. The issue is not about whether people should be arrested for breaking the law, it's about whether such outrageous laws should be passed in the first place.

Are you saying that Christians should always obey the law, just because Paul said as much in a letter to the Romans nearly 2,000 years ago? Should the French Resistance have obeyed the laws imposed on them by Hitler's puppets? What if the law says that you are to murder your grandparents to save on the cost of pensions? I would have hoped that a Christian would be guided by his or her conscience, and on that basis it can never be wrong to feed homeless people.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:03 pm

Quote : "What if the law says that you are to murder your grandparents to save on the cost of pensions? "

Ivan - how did you come to be sent an advance copy of the Tories' next Election Manifesto...? Smile
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by ROB on Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:20 pm

Ivan wrote:
Rock.  You seem to be missing the point of the thread.

I don’t believe so.

Ivan wrote:
The issue is not about whether people should be arrested for breaking the law, it's about whether such outrageous laws should be passed in the first place.

If the point of thread reflects the point of the news story upon which the thread is based, then you are a bit mis-focused in stating that point. The point of the story is that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has rejected arguments that the ordinance violates the United States Constitution. In noting and expounding upon the fact that the court’s decision is correct, I’ve focused upon the point of the article.

Ivan wrote:
… it's about whether such outrageous laws should be passed in the first place.

It has not been authoritatively determined that the ordinance is “outrageous”; thus, alarm is premature. Neither you nor I nor anyone posting hereon (to the best of my knowledge) knows the particulars of what’s has been and is going on in Orlando. Until such time as I do know, in meticulous detail, I’ll refrain from forming an opinion on the outrageousness of the ordinance.

Ivan wrote:
Are you saying that Christians should always obey the law, just because Paul said as much in a letter to the Romans nearly 2,000 years ago?

I’m saying that Paul, an apostle of Jesus the Christ, and thus charged by Christ with the responsibility of “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have taught you”, teaches exactly what he teaches in Romans 13 with authority delegated unto him by Jesus the Christ.

I am not saying here (although I’ve repeatedly said it elsewhere), but I am nonetheless implicitly referencing, that if one is Christian then one is committed to following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, specifically to “observe all things whatsoever” that the apostles teach us that Jesus taught his disciples.

Romans 13:1 and following is one such teaching. If you’d like a detailed exposition thereof, I’ll provide it hereon.

Ivan wrote:
Should the French Resistance have obeyed the laws imposed on them by Hitler's puppets?

Hitler was illegal; an exposition of Romans 13 and following reveals that.

Ivan wrote:
What if the law says that you are to murder your grandparents to save on the cost of pensions?

That law is illegal; an exposition of Romans 13 and following also reveals that.

Ivan wrote:
I would have hoped that a Christian would be guided by his or her conscience, and on that basis it can never be wrong to feed homeless people.

Christians, by definition, are to willingly be guided by the teachings of Jesus the Christ. That’s what the term “Christian” means.

One last observation. As was Romans 13, John 6 was written nearly two thousand years ago, by Luke, who, as was Paul, was a man inspired by God to record God’s Word. If you throw out Romans 13 as just so much old dishwater due to the antiquity of its authorship, you must also throw out John 6 as so much old dishwater due to the antiquity of its authorship.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by bobby on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:44 pm

Ivan, The difference between Roc and my PC is tht I can switch my PC off. What would these boards be like if ever Roc and Pheonix posted on the same thread.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by keenobserver1 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:00 pm

Trying to apply some logic to the thinking behind the ordinance on feeding the homeless, the best I can come up with is that although the actions of "Food Not Bombs" movement has honourable intentions, it is a short term solution that generates a longer term and deeper problem. This creates a culture of dependency rather than seeking out the root cause of the issue and addressing it, as noted in the Chinese proverb -

"If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime."

It is better to teach someone how to do something than to do it for them. Giving someone a fish is good for the short term, but it is better to teach them how to do it so that in the long term they can take care of themselves.

For example, a mother could cook for her children, but if she never teaches them to cook, they will always be dependent on her for meals. If she teaches them how to cook they will be able to take care of themselves in the long term.

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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:37 pm

Some Mothers like their children to remain dependant for as long as possible.

Ask any girl-friend that was ever "taken home to meet Mum".
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Ivan on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:48 pm

"If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime."
I agree. But if you don't feed him today, he'll die of starvation before he's had time to learn a trade.

We all know what this is about, whether we are talking about Orlando or Westminster - the NIMBYs are getting their own way. They just want the homeless to sod off and become somebody else's problem.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by keenobserver1 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:54 pm

Ivan wrote:
"If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime."
I agree. But if you don't feed him today, he'll die of starvation before he's had time to learn a trade.

We all know what this is about, whether we are talking about Orlando or Westminster - the NIMBYs are getting their own way. They just want the homeless to sod off and become somebody else's problem.

I'm not saying don't feed him today, everybody falls on hard times through no fault of their own. But rather than feeding him every day find a long term solution and to hell with the NIMBY's.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by keenobserver1 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:55 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Some Mothers like their children to remain dependant for as long as possible.

Ask any girl-friend that was ever "taken home to meet Mum".

At your age are there any girlfriends around that can verify this? Rolling Eyes
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:58 pm

I'll ask around to see whose turn it is to wear the hearing-aid today.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Shirina on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:08 pm

But rather than feeding him every day find a long term solution and to hell with the NIMBY's.

The problem is that there just isn't enough room in our society for everyone to hold a job and live well. And when I say "well," I don't mean luxuriously, I mean to have our basic needs met. The root cause is one that cannot be solved without some serious science - perhaps someday. The root cause are severe mental disorders, personality disorders, anti-social behavior, physical disabilities, and mental deficiencies that will forever prevent a person from ever holding down a reasonable job. There are far too many "I walked up hill both ways barefoot in the snow" types that become extremely indignant when they have to work for their food while others get it for free. These folks do everything in their power to make sure these unemployables receive as little as possible in terms of government funding. In a welfare state like Britain, homelessness is not caused by destitution as much as it is caused by people who simply aren't capable of maintaining a household of any kind, even one that is given to them.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by keenobserver1 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:29 pm

These would be the people who primarily need the help via a long term solution, which currently needs proper investigation in to what that solution is. To criminalise things doen't make them go away it only appease's part of society by giving the impression that some sort of action has been taken.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Shirina on Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:07 am

These would be the people who primarily need the help via a long term solution, which currently needs proper investigation in to what that solution is. To criminalise things doen't make them go away it only appease's part of society by giving the impression that some sort of action has been taken.

The only real solution would be to house them in a state-run "assisted living" center. It's all that can be done for these people. The legal aspect concerning the park is just what Ivan said it was - NIMBY people, most of whom probably never even go to that park, don't want the homeless there. In the US and most likely Britain, as well, have a lot of laws in the books that are loosely or selectively enforced. These laws were never designed or meant to be enforced rigidly and inflexibly; instead, these laws are called upon only when certain conditions are met - or when someone complains. Someone complained about the homeless and so the law was enforced. No doubt the complaint was spawned by people who have a prejudice against the homeless.

But saying that giving food and comfort to the homeless only perpetuates homelessness is so utterly absurd that hearing it come from a politician casts serious doubt upon the mental faculties of those who presumably lead us. How do these people even get elected?
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by bobby on Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:36 pm

In the year I left home to join the army 1966. The flat my parents and Brother lived in was offered for sale for the sum of £33,000 back then for a bus driver (my Dad, it was an unheard of sum. £33,000 back in 1966 was worth around £460,000 in 2010, what working man could afford that then or now.
Where I speak of is Pimlico, Westminster. Before the railways ploughed there way from Battersea to where Victoria Station now Stands, Pimlico was a very affluent area, but when the coming of the railways with the soot, noise and everything that goes with it. Many of the wealthy residents buggered off to Cheslea or Mayfair, leaving Pimlico to the Plebs. My Family where part of the Plebs and come from Pimlico for many Generations, in fact I was born in Glamorgan Street I allas no longer there.. When the river usage deminished and Battersea Power Station stopped pouring soot all over Pimlico and the River which was around 100 yards from where I lived and less than 50 yards from where I was born, became very desirable for the rich and powerfull to come back to. We had the evil Cow Dame Shirley Porter actively indulging in a bit of Social Cleansing, and when a working class tennant vacated their flats, they where boaded up till they where sold off, and guess what the indigenous population of Pimlico could not afford them, so a migration or the Working Classes went out and the rich moved in. I guess some of the flats are still inhabited by the orriginal tennants or offspring.
This was a case that I knew of and experience personally, but it happened all over the place. Anywhere there was a dock, expensive appartments where built in there place and the workers again forced out. Many of the ex Dockers from The Surrey Docks have ended up in a concrete Jungle called Thamesmead. What a shithole.
The effing Nimbys are still alive and kicking, only its the poorer people thats getting the boot.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:14 pm

I once met some people who had a flat in Dolphin Square (sorry about that - they certainly weren't family) who pointed out to us some council flats that had been built with a direct hot-water-pipe connection from Battersea Power Station, which was said to provide the council tenants with free hot water and central heating.

They won't have had that for a long time.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:28 pm

Rock. In your characteristically clinical and austere style, you have proved conclusively that the law was broken when three people fed the homeless in an Orlando park. However, I don’t think that was ever in doubt.

I started this thread, and the intention was to provoke replies about whether authorities should pass and enforce ‘bad’ laws, such as that one. ‘Bad’ is my judgement, but I doubt if it’s mine alone. ‘Good’ laws are almost universally accepted, such as the prohibition of stealing, murder and child molestation. Nobody in their right mind would argue that such laws are anything but ‘good’.

What’s “been going on in Orlando” is that people have been feeding the poor – a previously legal action – and now to do so is illegal. In fact, that’s what laws always do, they make something which was previously legal illegal, or vice versa. How a Christian might argue that feeding the poor can be anything other than ‘good’, as it’s precisely what Christ is supposed to have done (according to John 6:1-15), beggars belief. And when you say that a law can be illegal, it doesn’t make sense. Hitler’s laws were mostly ‘bad’ and many were downright ‘evil’, but they were all legal in Germany between 1933 and 1945.

Paul never met Christ and didn’t start his own ministry until about twenty years after Christ’s death, so Christ didn’t charge him with anything or delegate any authority to him. To say that anyone is “inspired by God to record God’s Word” just sounds absurd to a non-believer. Who says Paul was “inspired by God”? Paul? Or the group of clerics who sat round a table, about 120 years after Paul’s death, and decided what to put in (and which gospels to leave out) of the Bible? Plenty of cranks in my lifetime have claimed to be “inspired by God” and have been very dangerous, even serial killers such as ‘The Yorkshire Ripper’.

If you want to read the history surrounding Paul’s life, I thoroughly recommend “Paul: The Mind Of The Apostle” by A. N. Wilson, Pimlico, 1998, ISBN 0-7126-6663-X.

As you’re well aware, I’m a born-again atheist (thanks in no small part to Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris), so I’m quite happy to throw out Romans, John and the entire Bible with the dishwater, as you put it. I only quoted John to point out the dichotomy between how your Christ-figure is supposed to have behaved and how the authorities in one corner of the Western world’s most religious country are behaving now.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by ROB on Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:28 am

bobby wrote:
Ivan, The difference between Roc and my PC is tht I can switch my PC off. What would these boards be like if ever Roc and Pheonix posted on the same thread.

The difference between you and I are far more numerous, far deeper, and far more profound.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by ROB on Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:52 am

Ivan wrote:
Rock.  In your characteristically clinical and austere style, you have proved conclusively that the law was broken when three people fed the homeless in an Orlando park.  However, I don’t think that was ever in doubt.

Thank you for the compliment, although I prefer “precise”, “concise”, and “accurate.” Now that you and I both understand that the law is legitimate, no matter my agreement or disagreement with it, we can move on.

Ivan wrote:
I started this thread, and the intention was to provoke replies about whether authorities should pass and enforce ‘bad’ laws, such as that one. ‘Bad’ is my judgement, but I doubt if it’s mine alone. ‘Good’ laws are almost universally accepted, such as the prohibition of stealing, murder and child molestation.  Nobody in their right mind would argue that such laws are anything but ‘good’.

I don’t believe it’s a bad law, and I don’t believe it’s a good law; I believe that such determination rightfully should be made by the people close to and affected by the situation in Orlando, the citizens of Orlando. For personal reasons, such as the cacophony raised by South Los Angeles community activists over a judge’s decision to sentence a shopkeeper to time served (awaiting and during trial) and community service after the shopkeeper’s conviction for voluntary manslaughter, i.e., illegal homicide with intent and malice (just not “aforethought”) who did nothing to register voters and transport voters to the polls so that we could vote the judge out (my request to vote against the judge twice was refused), if a citizen ha not bothered to vote, I don’t care what they think. Too many people have died to obtain 15th Amendment –guaranteed voter right s for all citizens for me to tolerate anyone’s absence from the polls.

Ivan wrote:
What’s “been going on in Orlando” is that people have been feeding the poor – a previously legal action – and now to do so is illegal.

Not quite. Feeding anyone, poor or otherwise, is illegal in certain public locations. Whether that’s good, bad, or indifferent is for Orlando voters to decide.

Ivan wrote:
How a Christian might argue that feeding the poor can be anything other than ‘good’, as it’s precisely what Christ is supposed to have done (according to John 6:1-15), beggars belief.

As I’ve mentioned before, how a Christian might disobey a legal law (as per Romans 13:1 and following) and ignore God’s Word in the process beggars my imagination.

If the law itself were illegal, that would be another matter altogether. Peter and John were ordered to shit up by the Sanhedrin; their reply allows the reader to see what a Christina ought to do when presented with an illegal law.

One last point: A congregation of Jesus’ ecclesia can choose to make any property owned by the congregation available to any legitimated group, like, presumably the Orlando group for the purpose of feeding the hungry.

Ivan wrote:
And when you say that a law can be illegal, it doesn’t make sense.

It won’t make sense until Romans 13:1 and following is exposited. That offer still stands,

Ivan wrote:
Hitler’s laws were mostly ‘bad’ and many were downright ‘evil’, but they were all legal in Germany between 1933 and 1945.

Hitler’s laws were illegal, Nazism was and is illegal, and Hitler was illegal, period. It won’t make sense until Romans 13 is exposited. The UDHR s an application of that principle.

Ivan wrote:
Paul never met Christ and didn’t start his own ministry until about twenty years after Christ’s death, so Christ didn’t charge him with anything or delegate any authority to him.

Au contraire. As for the time frame, since Jesus lives, the time frame is irrelevant. That being said, Paul’s apostleship started on the road to Damascus, shortly after the stoning of Steven while Paul, then Saul, held the coats of the :rockers.”, so I think it was a bit sooner than twenty years

Ivan wrote:
To say that anyone is “inspired by God to record God’s Word” just sounds absurd to a non-believer.

It sounds perfectly “surd” to me. Big band sounds absurd. Since I believe Big bang reflects Genesis 1:1, and perfectly mirrors Genesis 1:1 in terms of the “who”, “what”, “when”, and “where”, with neither contradicting the other in terms of “how” and “why”, their absurdity has no impact on my belief thereof.

The most absurd thing in the universe (to me)? Life. The most absurd life? Human life. Last time I checked, both you and I are alive. How absurd!

Ivan wrote:
Who says Paul was “inspired by God”?

Jesus

Ivan wrote:
Paul?

Paul spoke as God and Jesus directed.

Ivan wrote:
Or the group of clerics who sat round a table, about 120 years after Paul’s death, and decided what to put in (and which gospels to leave out) of the Bible?

What’s a “cleric?” I see no mention of “cleric” in the gospels, in Paul’s letters, in the writer of Hebrews letter, in James’ letter, in Peter’s letters, in John’s letters (including revelation), or in Jude’s letter.

Ivan wrote:
If you want to read the history surrounding Paul’s life, I thoroughly recommend “Paul: The Mind Of The Apostle” by A. N. Wilson, Pimlico, 1998, ISBN 0-7126-6663-X.

I thoroughly recommend the Book of Acts, authored by Luke the physician, circa 60-70 AD>

Ivan wrote:
…. so I’m quite happy to throw out Romans, John and the entire Bible with the dishwater…

That’s a shame, since, in so doing, you concurrently of necessity throw out with the dishwater the underlying principles and basis of (a) Articles 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 27, and 29 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, (b) Sections 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and (c) Article IV Section 4 and Amendments 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 24, and 26 of the United States Constitution.

Ivan wrote:
I only quoted John to point out the dichotomy between how your Christ-figure is supposed to have behaved and how the authorities in one corner of the Western world’s most religious country are behaving now.

There is no dichotomy, and there is no “your Christ figure”; there is harmony, and there is Y’shua bar Yosef, Y'shua Moshiach, Jesus son of Joseph, Jesus the Christ, of whose teachings I welcome any opportunity to discus with you.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:02 pm

"The Wheel of Fortune" Politics = Religion = Social provision = Politics = Religion
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by witchfinder on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:20 pm

A true humanitarian CAN be a Christian, and CAN be a Hindu or any of the major faiths, but a true humanitarian will break the law in the name of real or true justice, not silly man made rules.

Look at Gandhi as probably the best example, civil disobedience is acceptable as a weapon fighting against injustice as Rosa Parks would tell us, as would thousands of other brave people who have confronted unjust rules in modern times.

Silly or unjust rules are made to be both mocked and broken, this is exactly what I did in the 1980s when I refused to pay my Poll Tax, and which subsequently brought down Margaret Thatcher.

The hungry should be fed, not brushed under the carpet
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by ROB on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:16 am


I neglected to answer the actual question. My bad. The omission is corrected below.

“Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?”

No.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by keenobserver1 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:52 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
I neglected to answer the actual question. My bad. The omission is corrected below.

“Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?”

No.

ditto - NO
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:04 am

Ivan wrote:Silly question, isn’t it? Unless you live in Orlando, where members of Orlando Food Not Bombs were arrested when police said they violated a city ordinance by feeding the homeless in Lake Eola Park.

Jessica Cross, Benjamin Markeson and Jonathan McHenry were arrested on a charge of violating the ordinance restricting group feedings in public parks. McHenry is a co-founder of the international Food Not Bombs movement, which began in the early 1980s.

Douglas Coleman, speaking for Orlando Food Not Bombs, said: "They basically carted them off to jail for feeding hungry people”. Orlando Food Not Bombs has been feeding the homeless breakfast on Mondays for several years and dinner on Wednesdays for five years.

Police did not enforce the ordinance while the court battle continued. The U.S. District Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta ruled that city rules regulating how often large groups of people can be fed in a park do not violate the Constitution. The penalty for violating Orlando's ordinance is 60 days in jail, a $500 fine or both.

How strange that this could happen in the most religious country in the Western world, where so many people subscribe to stories such as Jesus feeding 5,000 hungry men (no women) with loaves and fishes…(John 6:1-15)

Source used:-
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/crime/os-homeless-feedings-arrests-20110601,0,7226362.story



in short No, unless its Cameron or Gideon. then the answer is Yes
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Ivan on Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:05 pm

Ninety-year-old man faces jail for giving food to homeless people

From an article by Lamiat Sabin:-

"A 90-year-old man is facing up to 60 days in jail for feeding the needy due to a new law that bans people in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, from meal-sharing with the public. The new regulations require groups to be at least 500 feet away from residential properties and food sites are restricted to one per city block, but charities have criticised the rules as forms of implementing social cleansing.

Arnold Abbott was arrested and charged along with two ministers from the Sanctuary Church, which prepares hundreds of meals to dish out every week in their kitchen
."

For more details:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ninetyyearold-man-faces-jail-for-giving-food-to-homeless-people-9838728.html
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by boatlady on Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:38 pm

shocking - but typical of what we see happening every day all over the world

I really begin to despair of humanity - seems all humankind is pulling up the drawbridge, closing off the tap that delivers the milk of human kindness, and retreating behind the barricades of their own selfish interests.

It won't end well - for anyone
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:13 pm

It would be absolutely disgusting if they bought the same laws in over in the UK TO help feed the homeless here would it not?
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:29 pm

stuart torr wrote:It would be absolutely disgusting if they bought the same laws in over in the UK TO help feed the homeless here would it not?

Though if you are a Government intent upon grinding the face of The Poor, any contrary activity must be at the very least an irritation.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by boatlady on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:32 pm

we've already apparently decided not to save people drowning - it only encourages them apparently
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:54 pm

Oh isn't it getting bad now in this bloody country boatlady? seems you cannot help any poor bugger these days, yet you never know if the places may be reversed one day and that starving person cannot help you.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:11 pm

oftenwrong wrote: the council says soup kitchens perpetuate homelessness

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361198/Callous-council-wants-ban-soup-kitchens-homeless.html#ixzz1hJ9J8uIh

Not to decry the impartiality of the Daily Mail, or any Tory council, but isn't it a persons inability to afford a home that perpetuate homelessness? Maybe I'm being overly simplistic. I must be oversimplifying this as the claim seems to suggest that the homeless would rather remain homeless than graft to alter their circumstances, so a bowl of hot soup sends the wrong message by giving them something for nothing. If this is the case then why do we allow inherited wealth? Or usury of any kind where a person hasn't personally grafted for the capital that generates it?
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:20 pm

Rob wrote:I don’t believe it’s a bad law, and I don’t believe it’s a good law; I believe that such determination rightfully should be made by the people close to and affected by the situation in Orlando, the citizens of Orlando.

Interesting idea, given how often America has interfered both justly and utterly nefariously in how other countries govern themselves though I think you're on fairly thin ice. If the people of Orlando had universally decided to vote in a socialist or communist state governor I'm afraid I suspect people who have no direct link to the state might be disinclined to allow that (how did you put it) "such determination rightfully should be made by the people close to and affected by the situation". It's ironic how often objectivity evaporates when the laws being passed are not to the liking of previously objective bystanders not directly affected by the laws.

As I recall we interfered quite forcefully when the Nazis passed laws that didn't directly affect us, and many countries have had democratic elections only to see America and Britiain use military force both overt and covert to over turn them.
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The undeserving

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:37 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote: ....why do we allow inherited wealth? Or usury of any kind where a person hasn't personally grafted for the capital that generates it?

An entire generation of British people have seen the value of the home that they live in increase tenfold; in some cases their house has earned more money than the owner did by going out to work.

The result right now is that young people have to save for years before they can hope to "own" a home of their own, and private landlords prosper.

But there are apparently no votes in proposing any alteration to those circumstances.
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Re: Should people be arrested for feeding the homeless?

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