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Italy's future

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Italy's future

Post by bobby on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:18 pm

MSN.
Ferrari Chairman Luca di Montezemolo may run for the Italian Presidency in 2013, according to reports from Italy.

"The famous Ferrari Chairman has added to the speculation by writing an open letter to Italiafutura, an ideas think-tank he set up in 2009.

In this open letter, he says 2013 will open “a new era in Italian politics.

“The second republic has failed… politics has been losing touch with the everyday problems of Italians.”

Montezemolo says that, in 2011, Italians had the feeling the Government was out of control, paralyzed by internal squabbles and personal struggles. This brought the country very close to the point of no return.

In his letter, he says the solution to Italy’s problems is to play to its strengths. It should invest in its resources – culture and industry – and stop being defensive."

This man to me is a breath of fresh air. He is not stuck in any ideology and see’s the world as it is. He is an extremely successful business man , and due to the Ferrari marque will carry the support of many Italians. He is one of the few talking about investment for growth (as opposed to Gideon and Herr Cameron, each who have never run a business or had to balance a household budget) as the way forward. Italy is very fortunate in one respect, that is Italy still has industry and natural resources.
Italy prior to the global shyte was successful in running nationalised industry alongside private, and in the case of FIAT both within the same company.
No Italian Government has ever gone hell for leather to destroy any Nationalised industry. Italy’s public Transport system is Nationalised, and subsidised and can offer very reasonable fares which the public use, the same is to be said of their busses. They don’t seem to have any hang-ups with Nationalised industries or services. The average Italian is more concerned with the price of bread than what some cretin with a silver spoon in his gob has to say. An exception could be made of Berlusconi who controlled most of the Italian Media including TV and used them for his own ends.
My main point is that if an extremely successful Italian business man can see the need for investment for growth why can’t the PR man or Shelf Stacker in the UK see it.

Because of the time factor, I hope it wont be too late.


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Re: Italy's future

Post by astra on Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:20 pm

Hello Bobby,
Back in my heyday!! (Yes I think I had one - or two) in the late 1970's, for some reason, we had Italian Motorcycles, I had the Moto Guzzi Le Mans 850cc there were assorted Moto Guzzis, MV Augustas, Bennelli 750cc 6 cylinder, Moto Morini, Laverda Jota's, and Ducati 900cc (Please note that all of these machines are "Crotch Rockets" and only the wiring at that time was in any way questionable)

Apparently, the main industrialist in Italy was Allesandro de Thomasso, who apparently owned the manufacturer of anything that moved in Italy at that time. Indeed, the British manufacturers were having a hard time exporting to Italy because of de Thomasso's protectionist actions. (Italians then, rather like French STILL, buy their own manufactured products)

Am I thinking along the right lines?


Is some kind of protectionism necessary now - not that Italy has in any way opened up to Foreign Companys buying over Italian ones. TVR tried to buy out Benelli in Tarranto and the 7 year litigations nearly bancrupted the British Company and TVR are now in Slovenia, not Blackpool.
Yet Di Aggio can quite happily buy out near all of the Scottish Whisky business just in the passing.


Last edited by astra on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Italy's future

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:24 pm

I'm willing to be corrected, but there seems to be a common fiscal malaise in Countries bordering the Mediterranean. Businessmen trust other businessmen (as long as they have been properly introduced, or are Family) more than they trust politicians.

Paying taxes therefore falls into a similar category as making donations to Charity - it's regarded as a duty but voluntary.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:03 am

bobby wrote:MSN.
Ferrari Chairman Luca di Montezemolo may run for the Italian Presidency in 2013, according to reports from Italy.

"The famous Ferrari Chairman has added to the speculation by writing an open letter to Italiafutura, an ideas think-tank he set up in 2009.

In this open letter, he says 2013 will open “a new era in Italian politics.

“The second republic has failed… politics has been losing touch with the everyday problems of Italians.”

Montezemolo says that, in 2011, Italians had the feeling the Government was out of control, paralyzed by internal squabbles and personal struggles. This brought the country very close to the point of no return.

In his letter, he says the solution to Italy’s problems is to play to its strengths. It should invest in its resources – culture and industry – and stop being defensive."

This man to me is a breath of fresh air. He is not stuck in any ideology and see’s the world as it is. He is an extremely successful business man , and due to the Ferrari marque will carry the support of many Italians. He is one of the few talking about investment for growth (as opposed to Gideon and Herr Cameron, each who have never run a business or had to balance a household budget) as the way forward. Italy is very fortunate in one respect, that is Italy still has industry and natural resources.
Italy prior to the global shyte was successful in running nationalised industry alongside private, and in the case of FIAT both within the same company.
No Italian Government has ever gone hell for leather to destroy any Nationalised industry. Italy’s public Transport system is Nationalised, and subsidised and can offer very reasonable fares which the public use, the same is to be said of their busses. They don’t seem to have any hang-ups with Nationalised industries or services. The average Italian is more concerned with the price of bread than what some cretin with a silver spoon in his gob has to say. An exception could be made of Berlusconi who controlled most of the Italian Media including TV and used them for his own ends.
My main point is that if an extremely successful Italian business man can see the need for investment for growth why can’t the PR man or Shelf Stacker in the UK see it.

Because of the time factor, I hope it wont be too late.



A very good and fair summary of Italian industries both private and public Bobby. as you rightly point out He is one of the few talking about investment for growth and that is the right line of action to take at this time. Italy has had an extremely successful manufacturing sector that produce high quality good. with great investment in R&D. just wish we had just half of what they have in the area of manufacturing.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:15 am

Is that the same montezemolo that pays less tax than I do. yep can see why he makes money.

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Re: Italy's future

Post by bobby on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:37 am

Hello Landy. I dont know what his tax burden is. My point is that an industrialist of his proven ability, is saying that severe cuts will help no one, and investments should be made to get the economy working. Italy like the UK of old, made loads of wonga producing Quality over Quantity, and thats what is needed now. Our so called motor manufacturing industry with very minor exceptions, are foregn owned, all very well us saying, but they produce employement in what are now run down area's (in comparison to what they once where) but the employement is mainly low paid, and the profits those company,s make goes back their orriginal home, i.e India, Germany, France, Japan and Malasia to name just a few. What we need is for British Company's to produce good quality expensive goods that pay their employee's a decent living wage, unsubsidised by the rest of the country's tax payers. It is the only way forward, only we must not get bogged down by worying what Snr Montezemolo earns, but that each individual gets a fair days pay for a fair days work.
The Tory's under the bitch Thatcher and the Curry phucker Major decimated out industry, yet what do we now find, people like Branson, instead of investing in any form of manufacturing is running round buying cheap banks, and jumping straight into the Tory's bed, What a bastard. You said, Branson has prommised to make no redundancies in the first year (I think). Sounds very noble, but when he buys an item for £400 million under cost, who is it that is paying for those employees, it sure aint Branson.


Last edited by bobby on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Italy's future

Post by bobby on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:55 am

OW. I remember some years ago when Italy was going through a period of changing their Government on what seemed to be a menstrual cycle, almost every month. During this time many businesses, including My Auntie’s refused to pay any Taxes, on the grounds that, they will not give their cash to a Government who can not be trusted, or words to that effect. There was so many that, had the Government’s (plural) taken any action against so many company’s, said company’s threatened to pull out of Italy effectively pulling the plug on the Country. As the Governments became more stable in that they lasted more than 6 months things got back to normal (normal in Italy, aint wots normal over ere).

AND THEN CAME BERLUSCONI.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by bobby on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:15 pm

Hello V mate. Yes you are thinking along the right lines.
Alessandro De Tomaso (Alejandro De Tomaso) was in fact an Argentinian exile living in The home of his Grandfather in Modena. He had many interests in the Italian motor motor/motor cycle industry’s.

What he did was to get the Italian Government to place an embargo on small Japanese motor cycles, which where a threat to the Italian motor bike manufacturers, as the Larger Italian bikes more than held their own, there was no need for legislation to control the imports of the larger machines. All of this was as a direct act of retaliation against the Japanese. They (Japs) placed such a high tax on Imported Cars and Motor bikes, that effectively made them unsellable in Japan. It wasn’t a case of Italian Protectionism on its own, but a matter of evening up matters with the Japanese who where being Protectionist at that time. There was no action taken against the import of British or German Machines.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:59 pm

QUOTE: " Re: Italy's future
by bobby Today at 11:55 am. OW. I remember some years ago .....

Yes indeed, the standing joke in the 1950s was to ask, "Which Party holds power in Italy?" to which the answer was, "What time is it?"

De Gasperi 1 Dc Pci Psi Pli Dl Paz; December 10, 1945 to July 1, 1946; 203 days.
De Gasperi 2 Dc Pci Psi Pri; July 13, 1946 to January 20, 1947; 191 days.
De Gasperi 3 Dc Pci Psi; February 2, 1947 to May 13, 1947; 100 days.
De Gasperi 4 Dc Pli Psli Pri; May 31, 1947 to May 12, 1948; 347 days.
De Gasperi 5 Dc Pli Psli Pri; May 23, 1948 to January 12, 1950; 599 days.
De Gasperi 6 Dc Psli Pri; January 27, 1950 to July 16, 1951; 535 days.
De Gasperi 7 Dc Pri; July 26, 1951 to June 29, 1953; 704 days.
De Gasperi 8 monocolore Dc; July 16, 1953 to July 28, 1953; 12 days.

My knowledge of Luca de Montezemolo comes entirely from watching F1 Motor-racing on TV, but from that I would judge him to be utterly ruthless in pursuing his objectives. The result of the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix was decided by his telephone call to the Ferrari team Manager at the track, Jean Todt (now President of the Motoring sport World Governing Body the FIA), instructing Rubens Barrichello to yield the lead to Michael Schumacher. At the Presentation Ceremony, Schumacher had the grace to pass the winner's trophy to his disapponted team-mate.

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Re: Italy's future

Post by bobby on Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:21 pm

Yes OW, you are correct, but anyone involved in F1 is equally single minded. When Enzo Ferrari was personally running Scuderia Ferrari, he would only buy a one way ticket for his piloti (drivers). This was in case of an accident on the track and the driver not requiring the return trip, the man was a monster.
Not only that, but look at some of the strokes pulled by Ron Dennis and others. F1 Is not a sport for the fair and gentle amongst us.

My point of this thread is to show how an extremely successful businessman can see that the future for all is in growth, not deep cut and slash policies. I would sooner put my trust in this man over the PR man and the shelf stacker. I have no doubt that Montezemolo would vote Tory if he where British and would by now be Lord Montezemolo due to making donations(possibly), its simply that he, a man that knows the difference between stacking a towel on a shelf and how to make a buck has a better idea of what is needed to grow an economy.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:58 am

It used to be said that whatever was good for General Motors was good for America. But the circus has moved on. Will Italian electors hold the view that whatever is good for Fiat is good for Italy?
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Re: Italy's future

Post by Stox 16 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:25 am

bobby wrote:Hello V mate. Yes you are thinking along the right lines.
Alessandro De Tomaso (Alejandro De Tomaso) was in fact an Argentinian exile living in The home of his Grandfather in Modena. He had many interests in the Italian motor motor/motor cycle industry’s.

What he did was to get the Italian Government to place an embargo on small Japanese motor cycles, which where a threat to the Italian motor bike manufacturers, as the Larger Italian bikes more than held their own, there was no need for legislation to control the imports of the larger machines. All of this was as a direct act of retaliation against the Japanese. They (Japs) placed such a high tax on Imported Cars and Motor bikes, that effectively made them unsellable in Japan. It wasn’t a case of Italian Protectionism on its own, but a matter of evening up matters with the Japanese who where being Protectionist at that time. There was no action taken against the import of British or German Machines.

Again a spot on summary Bobby of Italian and Japans industry. Japan has for many years operated a protectionist economic policy.that effectively made them unsellable in Japan. but the real key has been Japan's manufacturing industry. but then they have been dead lucky as they have never had a Tory Government or Mrs Thatcher to cock up there economy either.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:56 am

Protectionism is not confined to Japan. The growing economy of India is not yet strong enough to cope with "dumping" of products by developed countries, so there are very high import tariffs (more than 100% Duty) on finished goods from the rest of the World.

The EC is busily strengthening its tariff walls, and the US continues to subscribe to the WTO.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:37 am

oftenwrong wrote:Protectionism is not confined to Japan. The growing economy of India is not yet strong enough to cope with "dumping" of products by developed countries, so there are very high import tariffs (more than 100% Duty) on finished goods from the rest of the World.

The EC is busily strengthening its tariff walls, and the US continues to subscribe to the WTO.

quite true oftenwrong. I have a feeling we will see more of this over the next year or so
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Re: Italy's future

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:05 am

Italian households and companies are not massively in debt when compared with their Euro Area peers, and credit is not in especially short supply. Ageing population dynamics lead domestic consumption to be weak in Italy (following a pattern which is strikingly similar to that seen in Japan and Germany), yet Italy's export sector has been allowed to drift as competitiveness has been lost. Really the most telling chart I have shows how as the current account surplus has widened (ie as competitiveness has been lost) long term growth has steadily declined.

With neither exports nor private consumption able to pull the economy the state has been under constant pressure to offer support via deficit spending, leading to the accumulation of an unsustainable quantity of government debt. This deficit spending is about to come to an end (permanently according to the latest EU agreement), and under these circumstances the economy is likely to remain in or near contraction for as long as it takes to recover competitiveness. The question is, how long is that going to be, and what will happen to the debt dynamics in the meantime.

one of the reasons that many are confident Italy will make it on through with the debt challenge is the country's recent record in controlling the deficit. According to OECD data, while Italy ran a cyclically adjusted primary deficit every year between 1970 and 1991, it ran a cyclically adjusted primary surplus every year since 1992. That is to say, before allowing for interest payments Italy has not been running a deficit for many years now, and it is simply the burden of servicing the accumulated debt which is causing the country to spend more than it receives in revenue. As many of those who are in the "optimistic" camp on the question of the country's ultimate solvency eagerly point out, Italy’s cyclically adjusted primary balance as a proportion of GDP has remained in a better shape than those of the largest developed countries as well as those of European peripheral and core countries since the onset of the crisis. It is only the legacy of the past which acts like a dead weight pulling the country down, but what a legacy this is, and especially as yields on Italian debt have steadily risen.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:18 am

One gets an impression from the media that the Italian People simply get on with their lives, leaving Politicians, Lawyers, and especially Ministero dell'economia Finance Ministers to strut their respective stage looking important although the Public has not in practice surrendered full authority.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:02 am

oftenwrong wrote:One gets an impression from the media that the Italian People simply get on with their lives, leaving Politicians, Lawyers, and especially Ministero dell'economia Finance Ministers to strut their respective stage looking important although the Public has not in practice surrendered full authority.

laid back comes to mind...but that is not true...Italians are not silly folks at all...interesting times oftenwrong
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Italian affairs

Post by bobby on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:29 pm





Former Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi is expected to appeal his conviction for tax fraud

A court in Italy has convicted former premier Silvio Berlusconi of tax fraud and sentenced him to four years in prison.

Is this something we learne off the Italians. Only we needn't start at the Top as they have, Gideon Osbourne and Richard (badger) Hammond would make a good starting point.
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Re: Italy's future

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:59 pm

Berlusconi spent much of his time as Prime Minister passing laws that would ensure he could never be sent to prison.

I'm not sure that British Tories have that same Vision.
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Re: Italy's future

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