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Does any religion matter at all today?

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Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:35 am

First topic message reminder :

I will be interested to read peoples thoughts on this question. Does any Religion matter at all today?

I cannot see that any religious church's or anything religious even matters today at all. The only true religion I have ever come across is, Money, Political Power, Land, and greed. all the things we are told they are against, this goes for all religions too in my view.

in fact all the faiths I have come across use all of the tools of money, political power, Land and greed to re-force there religious views on there followers. i have never come across any religion that does not use at least one of this tools to enforce there religious views on the people they are said to be looking after.

I have read over the years all the religious books i can find, and have yet too be moved by any of them. some have very good stories that have something in them for every reader. but their it ends for me. maybe someone can explain why any of this is so important today? as i cannot find anything within the books that states this is very important today or in the past. I myself have come to believe that religion has more to do with the thought of death or dying and the human need to believe that life goes on after death.

However, when we was all born we did not feel pain or come into being with some religious thought in our heads or a book in our hands did we? in fact we had know idea about religion at all? so only find out what religion we are when someone tells us that this is our religion? yet you would think we would all know this already if there was a god? So we only find out what our religion is after birth? or do you believe you know what you religion was before birth? (i did not) if someone told me i was a follower of Islam, I would of said OK at five years old. in fact they could of given me any religion and i would of said fine.

So religion seems to me, religion only matters a get deal more the older you get? so I am told, well if so its failing on me badly. so anyway, it matter more as you get closer to death then? so is this more to do with our human need for life to go on somehow? as we find it hard to believe that life comes to an end and we go into darkness of no mans land? just like before we was born?

I was told at about 6 years old by my mother that this was my faith. but in total truth my mother could of said any faith was my religion and i would of gone along with what she said. To me that was it, Its that simple then. i did not then think about anything religious till i was in the Army in standing in a street in the middle of green line in a war zone in the Lebanon. with both Christains killing, Muslims Killing, Catholic Maronite's Killing, Druze faith Killing, Jewish killing. at first wondering why they was all doing this? not for religion or faith but power and using religion to justify there actions. I remember thinking. just suppose these people had been given a different religion by there mothers. they would instead of killing as a Maronite gunman they would of been killing Maronite's as a Druze gunman?

So your religion is picked for you in my view and some even change it too. yet you would think if you know your god at your death. you should know who you god is before birth? but we do not. So does any of this really matter any more?

well i well be interrested to read your thought on this. its not about any one religion but all of them.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Shirina on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:25 am

Hello, Weltsmerch ... it is a pleasure to see you here!

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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Shirina on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:54 pm

Marriage is a union between a man and a woman, independent of any religion, law, or court decision. Shacking up is not a union; as such, the terminology descriptive of "union" is moot.
The last part of your sentence disproves the first part of your sentence. If two individuals cannot simply declare to each other that they're married and then move in together irrespective of any religion, law, or court, then you're essentially saying that marriage requires religion, laws, and courts to make it a true union.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:19 pm

un·ion
   [yoon-yuhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
the act of uniting two or more things.

2.
the state of being united.

3.
something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.

4.
a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.

5.
a group of states or nations united into one political body, as that of the American colonies at the time of the revolution, that of England and Scotland in 1707, or that of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.

Perhaps your definition is different than the one above. A man and woman can unite in cohabitation, aka shacking up. What is your definition of "union"?
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:47 pm

“Marriage is a union between a man and a woman, independent of any religion, law, or court decision”, as can be seen by noticing the highlighted text.
.[quote]

So again....how is it different from cohabitation?
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Scenario (very common): A man cohabitates with woman> He impregnates the woman (it takes two to tango). He says, “Get an abortion”; he means “I ain’t got time for the complication.” She says, “No, I will deliver this child.” In an despicable adulteration of the axiom “when the going gets tough, the tough get going”, he does what the axiom teaches; he gets going, perhaps to “somewhere in Georgia”, where he can be found “skinnin’ and shooting craps on his knees” rather than sticking around town, Brown, and taking care of that woman you impregnated and that child you co-procreated.

[quote]
I've seen that happen even when the couple was "married."

So, according to your definition regarding the US Navy officer, a union is a commitment to another person? Forsaking all others? In other words, a couple in a common law marriage are physically incapable of monogamy and remaining true to their significant other?
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:38 pm

Evidently, a marriage by your definition is a 100% committment in one's heart and soul to another human being.
Why can't it apply to a same sex couple?
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:40 pm

My definition of union in this context refers to a union between a woman and a man, not a union between “two or more things” (a woman and a man are not “things”; they’re “persons”), [quote]

Two men and two women are persons as well, are they not?
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by ROB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:52 pm

weltschmerz wrote:
My definition of union in this context refers to a union between a woman and a man, not a union between “two or more things” (a woman and a man are not “things”; they’re “persons”),

Two men and two women are persons as well, are they not?

Two men are not a woman and a man. Two women are not a woman and a man.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:59 pm

So, according to your definition regarding the US Navy officer, a union is a commitment to another person?


You got it. In fact, this particular officer said it with such ferocity that I was scared not to believe him when he said, “My marriage to this woman is forever or till death do us part, whichever comes last.”
----------------------
Hmmmm...I know same sex couples who have been together for close to a lifetime, who are just a ferocious about their commitment to each other.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:01 pm

You still don't (or won't) get it, Rock. If the law of the land says that any two people can marry, then they are legally married in that land. If you or any of your religious friends refuse to recognise - or accept - the law of that land, that's your problem. If, however, the law of the land (as in Iran) says that if two men are in a sexual relationship they will be hanged, then they will be hanged.

Religious people living under a secular government have to accept the laws of that government or face the consequences if they choose to ignore them, just as I have to put up with all the crap that the Tories are dishing out in the UK, even though it offends my socialist principles.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:03 pm

Two men are not a woman and a man. Two women are not a woman and a man.
Well, I'm glad that your opinion of what constitutes a union works for you. It doesn't for everyone. Where I come from, same sex unions are just as valid as hetero unions, as they should be.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:08 pm

If the law of the land says that any two people can marry, then they are legally married in that land.
----------------
He doesn't seem to care about the legality, the paperwork, the religious approval or condemnation....he just wants those "icky" gays out of marriage. Period. He's entitled to have that opinion, regardless of what we think.
Thank God that opinions like this are becoming less and less common.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:23 pm

I know gay couples in their 50s and 60s, who have been together for decades. They've made their houses homes, raised fine children, have grandchildren and have stood by each other's sides through thick and thin, and in sickness and in health. I find these unions inspirational, and far more valid than the unions of people like Newt Gingrich or Britney Spears.
Maybe I'm just not understanding your argument, but for me, a union hinges on what you have in your heart, not what you have in your pants.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:57 pm

So Rob your saying That the Newt shacked up, before god, three times and Spears at least once.....As you do not seem to think that their 'marriages were real even though their services were done in front of a cleric of some sort........
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:08 pm

Fats are not “opinions.” The fact that marriage is a union between a woman and a man is not an opinion. I’m glad that you are thanking God. Perhaps you might discover what God says regarding the fact that marriage is a union between a woman and a man.
Do you really think it matters to me what an airborne superman has been purported to say about marriage?
Your contention that your opinion is not an opinion is erroneous...it's hardly fact. It's an opinion, based on a book that caters to magic and superstition.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:19 pm

"Marriage (or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship. The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but is usually an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged. Such a union, often formalized via a wedding ceremony, may also be called matrimony."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

"Marriage is the process by which two people who love each other make their relationship public, official, and permanent."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/marriage

"Marriage is a social contract between two individuals that unites their lives legally, economically, and emotionally."
http://marriage.about.com/od/historyofmarriage/g/marriage.htm


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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:48 pm

As long as you keep insisting that your opinion is fact, there's nothing more that I can say. Facts can be proven, and your only proof is what is written in an old book, penned by misogynists who wandered in the desert a little too long.
Have a nice evening.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:00 pm

Anyone here old enough to remember Gilbert O'Sullivan's take on marriage?

I've no wish to hurry you luv
But have you seen the time
It's quarter to ten and we're supposed to be there
At nine
I don't think the registrar
Will be very pleased
When we show up an hour late
Like two frozen peas
Both now facing for the first time
Presently and past
Something that begins with M
And ends in alas
More than not complete disaster
Even from the start
What could it be...
It's matrimony

I know how you've dreamt about
Being walked down the aisle
But think of the money we'll save
And you'll see it's worthwhile
It won't please our mums and dads
But they don't even know,
Besides if they did what's the betting
They wouldn't even go
You and me are all that matters
Disregard the rest
Trust your soon to be old man
He knows what is best
Very shortly now there's going to be
An answer from you
Then one from me
That's matrimony

I'm truly grateful for the little things in life
That have made me so glad
Every other hour that I spend with you
Is not in the least bit sad
Quite the opposite in fact
And if you don't believe me
Here's the proof
Ask me if I and I'll say "Aye, I do"
You and me are all that matters
Disregard the rest
Trust your soon to be old man
He knows what is best
Very shortly now there's going to be
An answer from you
Then one from me
That's matrimony
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:05 pm

All cows eat grass. Not all grass gets eaten by cows.
confused
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:10 pm

Now let me see if I've correctly understood all of the above ......

Religion is about Sex, Sex is a religion.

That was easier than I thought.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:21 pm

No, OW you've got it wrong again......

It's Sex is about religion and Religion is about sex......... Wink

Better luck next time....
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Shirina on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:25 pm

Religion is about Sex
Right on the money.

I have frequently referred to the Bible as "The Prude's Guide to Bronze Age Sex." It seems that's all the clergy and the devout really seem to care about. I fault St. Augustine for destroying Christianity and making it petty and petulant.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:30 pm

Religion is about Sex, Sex is a religion.
Well, of course! Why do you think people scream out "Oh God! Oh God!" during the act of coitus?

(I've tried screaming out "Oh Flying Spaghetti Monster! Oh Flying Spaghetti Monster!", but it loses something in the translation....)
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:07 pm

I will be interested to read peoples thoughts on this question. Does any Religion matter at all today?

I cannot see that any religious church's or anything religious even matters today at all. The only true religion I have ever come across is, Money, Political Power, Land, and greed. all the things we are told they are against, this goes for all religions too in my view.


Hello Stox

In response to your original question, I would say that 'religion' always has mattered and always will do, because as human beings we have spiritual needs; or to put it another way, we are part of a spiritual reality which is more subtle but more important than the here-and-now.

''Money, political power and land'' are not antithetical to religion if correctly handled. Greed is a human failing common to people everywhere.

'Religion' has to be correct in principle and teachings to be true. What the followers do or don't do is their own affair and a slightly different subject, but if you look you'll find good examples.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:30 pm

Religion is about Sex, Sex is a religion.

Religion is about everything in life, so because sex and relationships are important aspects of our lives, they are also prominent in religious teachings.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:14 pm

I think that what is attractive about most religions is not the dubious notions about the universe and everything they embody but the idea that our lives might matter. People with large egos don't need this, obviously, but for most of us it is a perpetual attraction

Penderyn, I think this is quite an important point. I would add that the very idea of 'religion being outdated' is based upon the belief that science has somehow invalidated many religious concepts. Even supposing this to be true, it doesn't really affect the core teachings of any religion, but instead challenges explanations of physical phenomena which were only ever on the periphery.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by weltschmerz on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:35 pm

I think that what is attractive about most religions is not the dubious notions about the universe and everything they embody but the idea that our lives might matter. People with large egos don't need this, obviously, but for most of us it is a perpetual attraction
Matter? Matter how? In my opinion, religion is less concerned with life, than it is with the afterlife. If you do XYZ, you'll go to heaven and be immortal. All religions, since the dawn of time, have been thanatocentric at their cores...."do what the gods demand, if you want to live forever."
I'm far more concerned with THIS life, and try to make it count. If you look at the principles embodied in secular humanism, life does, indeed, matter.

Need to test beliefs – A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
Reason, evidence, scientific method – A commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence and scientific methods of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
Fulfillment, growth, creativity – A primary concern with fulfillment, growth and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
Search for truth – A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
This life – A concern for this life (as opposed to an afterlife) and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
Ethics – A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
Building a better world – A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.


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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Shirina on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:42 pm

One of the big problems with religious dogma is the inherent contradictions in the holy books from which the dogma is obtained. This isn't merely an academic exercise, but a very real concern. Because there are contradictions, often diametrically opposed contradictions, followers of said religion are free to pick which one applies and still be within the rules. One passage might say to "love thy neighbor," "love thine enemies," and "turn the other cheek." Another passage might command the followers to go out and "kill the unbelievers" or to "slaughter those who worship other gods." Thus they are free to pick between being peaceful or being warlike; both are equally valid choices and neither one becomes more "moral" than the other.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Hi Wez

In my opinion, religion is less concerned with life, than it is with the afterlife.

I think this depends on the religion. If we think for example of a Buddhist renouncing the world for monasterial life, or of other such approaches, then I agree with you.

If I think of my own life however, an incongruity arises with regard to your expressed view. I am a practicing adherent of my religion (Islam) whilst at the same time being fully involved in day-to-day life in just about every way. The same is true of all the other Muslims I know. My religion is concerned with this life and the next, as are many other faiths and philosophies.

If you look at the principles embodied in secular humanism, life does, indeed, matter.

Yes; but what's meant here by ''life matters'' is not the same as what's generally meant in the religious context. The same word is being used but the concepts are quite different.


Peace
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Hi Shirina

Human interpretation has a tendency to read its own desires into holy texts. I am not aware of any major religious text, from the Qur'an to the Bible to the Bhagavad Gita, in which references to war do not take place within a particular context as opposed to an open invitation.

So long as there is communication, textual, oral or even telepathic, there will be personal interpretation of what is communicated; and that interpretation tends to be more reflective of the individual than the message.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by ROB on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:40 pm

Kalitay wrote:
If I think of my own life however, an incongruity arises with regard to your expressed view. I am a practicing adherent of my religion (Islam) whilst at the same time being fully involved in day-to-day life in just about every way. The same is true of all the other Muslims I know. My religion is concerned with this life and the next, as are many other faiths and philosophies.

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly", (Y'shua bar Yosef, John 10:10).

life, Greek zōē, life.

abundantly, Greek perissos, beyond, superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality), by implication excessive, exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous.

Assalam Alaikum, my brother.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by ROB on Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:15 am

Kalitay wrote:

Religion is about Sex, Sex is a religion.
Religion is about everything in life, so because sex and relationships are important aspects of our lives, they are also prominent in religious teachings.

Teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph, Matthew Chapter 5 (Sermon on the Mount):

When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. He opened his mouth and began to teach them, saying,


  1. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

  2. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.”

  3. “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.”

  4. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.’

  5. “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.”

  6. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

  7. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

  8. “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

  9. “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

  10. “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

  11. “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”

  12. “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

  13. “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

  14. “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court, and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.”

  15. “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.”

  16. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

  17. “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.”


  18. “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’, but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

  19. “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.”

  20. “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

  21. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”


Of the twenty-one (21) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 5:


  • Nineteen (19), 90.5%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 9.5%, involve sex.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Ivan on Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 am

An analysis of one chapter of one book in the Bible is statistically insignificant, just as it would be if you used Leviticus Chapter 18 and came up with an entirely different result. Either way it doesn't alter the fact that the three Abrahamic religions, and probably most of the others, are somewhat preoccupied with laying down their laws about abortion, homosexuality and adultery. As Cathy Ladman wrote: "All religions are the same - guilt, but with different holidays".
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:36 am

QUOTE: "Of the twenty-one (21) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 5:
•Nineteen (19), 90.5%, do not involve sex.
•Two (2), 9.5%, involve sex."


Few people in the 21st. C claim to have heard the teachings of Jesus at first hand, or to have read The Sermon on the Mount in its Original, so the gospel is normally transmitted through intermediaries, e.g. Priests and subscribers to electronic mail systems.

Distillation of the message carried by modern interpreters always seems to come down to a three-letter word which seems to matter to them disproportionately.

There's something else from Matthew: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by bobby on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:04 pm

I was a reasoinably devout Roman Catholic, I still wear the Madonna round my neck, but for no other reason, than my Nonna gave it to me when I was a 5 year old child. My local Church was a very small crowded Church in Pimlico so we used to attend Westminster ( still an easy walk from where we lived) Cathedral, I used to go regularly to Sunday School and was even an Alter boy for a while. I fully believed everything the Bible and the Church taught me. As I got older and my ability to reason developed, I grew further and further away from my previous beliefs.
Now I see the Bible and its teachings as a tool or a weapon used to keep populations in check, as they say, ”put the fear of God up them”.

How else can a small group of people keep the masses in check without killing them by the thosands, The weapon was used to great effect by the conquistadors during their invasion of South America and it was also used to great effect in the USA, Many thousands of slaves where kept in their place through the fear of God, and was even used against the Native Americans. Almost every Nation saw the use of such a cheap weapon as in the main, it was heavily subsidised by Kings and Queens, whereas now its subsidised by its followers via the collection plate and donations. For those that use it, now have a win, win situation, and we the tax payer don’t have to pay for it unless we want to.

I’m not saying that those who believe today, see it as a tool or a weapon, as they honestly believe in everything they preach, only IMHO the words are fiction. Some of its so called teaching can be used as a blueprint as to how to behave, but all in all despite my earlier Blind Faith, I went to spec savers.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by bobby on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:06 pm

ow, I saw the sermon on the mount in the great film "The life of Brian" and at no time did he say any of those statements mentioned by Roc.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:39 pm

Alaikum salam Rock my brother



"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly"


So very true. When Jesus(as) came he affirmed and enriched us in life altogether, both this one and the next.

True religion enhances us in every kind of hapiness and prosperity.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:06 pm

Either way it doesn't alter the fact that the three Abrahamic religions, and probably most of the others, are somewhat preoccupied with laying down their laws about abortion, homosexuality and adultery.

Hi Ivan

It appears to me that it is perhaps our own preoccupation with sex and sexual matters which leads us to focus on those aspects of religion. Furthermore, it is because the Sexual Revolution and the Gay Rights Movement have affected strong changes within Western society that the religious element therefore also focuses on the resulting issues. In the absence of these movements, the religious response is also absent because there is nothing to respond to.

Relationships, families and children are important aspects of our lives and we should expect nothing less than that any given religion should concentrate on these in commensurate degree. I don't believe any major religious text, when read as a whole, can be said to concentrate on sexual issues any more than these issues are naturally present in our lives.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by Kalitay on Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:36 pm

How else can a small group of people keep the masses in check without killing them by the thosands, The weapon was used to great effect by the conquistadors during their invasion of South America and it was also used to great effect in the USA, Many thousands of slaves where kept in their place through the fear of God, and was even used against the Native Americans.



Hi Bobby

People who want to enslave and control generally use whatever means are at their disposal. These are human tendencies which are always there regardless of the religious or ideological setting.

With reference to Christianity, it's very easy to forget the origins of the religion. It was a direct challenge to the then imperial authority, not an affirmation of it. The 'spiritual power' of Christ's message was more important than the worldly power of Caesar.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:44 am

Ivan wrote:
An analysis of one chapter of one book in the Bible is statistically insignificant…

True. That’s one reason among many that I’ve offered no analysis, simply exposition, in this instance, an exposition of the teachings of of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph, starting in Matthew 5, commonly called the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus needs no statistical analysis performed by me.

Continuing: Teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph, Matthew Chapter 6 (Sermon on the Mount):



  1. “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”

  2. “So when yougive to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

  3. “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

  4. “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.”

  5. “Pray, then, in this way:
    ‘Our Father who is in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name.
    ‘Your kingdom come.
    Your will be done,
    On earth as it is in heaven.
    ‘Give us this day our daily bread.
    ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’”

  6. “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”

  7. “Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

  8. “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

  9. “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!”

  10. “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

  11. “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink, nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

    “So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”


Of the twenty-one (21) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 5:


  • Nineteen (19), 90.48%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 9.52%, involve sex.


Of the eleven (11) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 6:


  • Eleven (11), 100.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Zero (0), 0.00%, involve sex.


Of the thirty-two (32) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapters 5 and 6:


  • Thirty (30), 93.75%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 6.25%, involve sex.
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Re: Does any religion matter at all today?

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:17 am


Matthew Chapters 1-4 offer but a few teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph; for brevity’s sake, all that I can discern are enumerated in this post, and no other text from the first four chapters of Matthew are posted. If I’ve missed any teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph, please alert me to my error.


    Chapter 1:None.Chapter 2:None.Chapter 3:
  1. But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”


    Chapter 4:

  2. But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

  3. Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

  4. Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’’

  5. And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”


Of the five (5) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapters 1-4:


  • Five (5), 100.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Zero (0), 0.00%, involve sex.


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