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Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

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Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by witchfinder on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:55 am

Bophal, India, 1984, one of the worst industrial accidents in history, conservative estimate put the death toll at around 11,000 people which includes the 4000 deaths immediately after the disaster and 7000 since that time.
The company responsible was Union Carbide which has since been bought out by Dow Chemicals, another American company which obviously believes profit comes before morals.

The new owners "Dow Chemicals" purchased Union Carbide in the full knowledge that it took on full responsibility of all Union Carbides legal responsibilities.

It is estimated that anywhere between 100 and 200 thousand people have permanent injuries from the disaster, these range from breathing problems, neurological illnesses, heart conditions and reproductive faults.

The government of India claimed compensation on behalf of the victims of in excess of 3 billion US dollars - Union Carbide offered 350 million US dollars and ended up paying 470 million dollars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has emerged today that Sebastian Coe, the head of the 2012 olympic committee has signed a sponsorship deal with Dow Chemicals for the London olympics, this has enraged the Indian olympic committee and has led to a threatened boycott of the olympics.

There is an on-going controversy in India at the lack of a clean-up of the contaminated site which most doctors and scientists claim is continuing to result in both deaths and serious illness at the site.

This is not a government led protest, it is led by a sporting organisation, in my opinion this is people power and represents a non-governmental organisation taking up a just cause on behalf of ordinary people, the only outcome must be the dropping of Dow Chemicals as a sponsor of the 2012 olympics - people power and justice must win.

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Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:54 am

witchfinder wrote:
It has emerged today that Sebastian Coe, the head of the 2012 olympic committee has signed a sponsorship deal with Dow Chemicals for the London olympics, this has enraged the Indian olympic committee and has led to a threatened boycott of the olympics.

Hosting Summer Olympics Games costs extremely serious money. It is my understanding that Montreal went in the hole big time and suffered economically for decades after the 1976 games, thirty-five years ago.

I assume Dow is a paying sponsor. If your city, London in this case, is going to host a Summer Olympic Games, the organizers have two options. They can follow the Montreal model, or the can follow the Los Angeles 1984 Summer Games model, in which Los Angeles Olympic Organizing Committee Chairman Peter Ueberroth figured out how to generate mega-bucks profit rather than go in the hole for thirty years.

Apparently the members of the London Olympic Organization Committee have their heads on straight and, by following the Ueberroth model, are charting a course that will put money into rather than suck money out of London, England, and the United Kingdom. Good for them; Brits are facing far too much economic strife to be saddled with more debt.

As for the Indians, up the bucks to buy off Dow’s sponsorship, and call the whole thing square. London, Londoners, and common British citizens didn’t kill Indians in 1984.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:48 pm

To the teeming millions of India, there is no distinction to be drawn between British Imperial customs and the Commercial activities of the USA.

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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:17 pm

witchfinder wrote:Bophal, India, 1984, one of the worst industrial accidents in history, conservative estimate put the death toll at around 11,000 people which includes the 4000 deaths immediately after the disaster and 7000 since that time.
The company responsible was Union Carbide which has since been bought out by Dow Chemicals, another American company which obviously believes profit comes before morals.

The new owners "Dow Chemicals" purchased Union Carbide in the full knowledge that it took on full responsibility of all Union Carbides legal responsibilities.

It is estimated that anywhere between 100 and 200 thousand people have permanent injuries from the disaster, these range from breathing problems, neurological illnesses, heart conditions and reproductive faults.

The government of India claimed compensation on behalf of the victims of in excess of 3 billion US dollars - Union Carbide offered 350 million US dollars and ended up paying 470 million dollars.


The company that operated and owned the Bhopal plant was Union Carbide India Limited, which was 49.1% owned by the Indian Government, the other 50.9% by the Union Carbide Corporation.

After the disaster the Indian Government chose to try the case in India rather than America, where they would have been able to secure a more substantial settlement. The plant was sold to Everready Industries India Limited in 1994.

Dow Chemicals didn't buy over Union Carbide until 2001.

It is a dangerous precedent to set for the sporting world, as if we dig in to the past of every corporate sponsor we will find things that people object to on moral grounds. What if we challenge RBS right to sponsor the six nations?
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:20 pm

Fifty thousand natives suffer from Indian chemical factory disaster. No Westerners hurt.

NEXT!
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Shirina on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:32 pm

The problem with the internet is that the nasty details never go away ...

Union Carbide Corporation investigators, nearing the end of a 16-month inquiry, say they have found new witnesses, documents and scientific evidence proving that the 1984 Bhopal toxic gas disaster was caused by sabotage by a company employee.

Company investigators also say they have found altered logs and documents. Carbide says these indicate that several employees at its Bhopal pesticide plant knew about the start of the accident earlier than they have acknowledged, and then tried to cover up this knowledge.

Link

Perhaps the Indians should be boycotting their own Olympic games.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:50 pm


Meanwhile, Indians starve to death daily.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:26 pm

Shirina wrote:The problem with the internet is that the nasty details never go away ...

Union Carbide Corporation investigators, nearing the end of a 16-month inquiry, say they have found new witnesses, documents and scientific evidence proving that the 1984 Bhopal toxic gas disaster was caused by sabotage by a company employee.

Company investigators also say they have found altered logs and documents. Carbide says these indicate that several employees at its Bhopal pesticide plant knew about the start of the accident earlier than they have acknowledged, and then tried to cover up this knowledge.

Link

Perhaps the Indians should be boycotting their own Olympic games.

There is loads of information available about this disaster, and with all the evidence available it doesn't stack up that it happened with nobody noticing, till it was too late?

India has one of the worst safety records on the planet, to such an extent that some of the multinationals won't work there.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:27 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Meanwhile, Indians starve to death daily.

Their government could do with improving the life's of their population with the money they take from the multinationals rather than lining their own pockets!
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Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:56 pm

There is something obscene about having the Olympics, when old people are enduring cuts in their cold weather payment, and millions are losing their jobs. Britain has to be the most insensitive nation on this planet.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:18 pm

The lives of all of us would be impoverished if we ever gave up the pursuit of excellence.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:26 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
The lives of all of us would be impoverished if we ever gave up the pursuit of excellence.

Well said.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:58 pm

witchfinder wrote:Bophal, India, 1984, one of the worst industrial accidents in history, conservative estimate put the death toll at around 11,000 people which includes the 4000 deaths immediately after the disaster and 7000 since that time.
The company responsible was Union Carbide which has since been bought out by Dow Chemicals, another American company which obviously believes profit comes before morals.

The new owners "Dow Chemicals" purchased Union Carbide in the full knowledge that it took on full responsibility of all Union Carbides legal responsibilities.

It is estimated that anywhere between 100 and 200 thousand people have permanent injuries from the disaster, these range from breathing problems, neurological illnesses, heart conditions and reproductive faults.

The government of India claimed compensation on behalf of the victims of in excess of 3 billion US dollars - Union Carbide offered 350 million US dollars and ended up paying 470 million dollars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has emerged today that Sebastian Coe, the head of the 2012 olympic committee has signed a sponsorship deal with Dow Chemicals for the London olympics, this has enraged the Indian olympic committee and has led to a threatened boycott of the olympics.

There is an on-going controversy in India at the lack of a clean-up of the contaminated site which most doctors and scientists claim is continuing to result in both deaths and serious illness at the site.

This is not a government led protest, it is led by a sporting organisation, in my opinion this is people power and represents a non-governmental organisation taking up a just cause on behalf of ordinary people, the only outcome must be the dropping of Dow Chemicals as a sponsor of the 2012 olympics - people power and justice must win.


There is something obscene about having the Olympics, when old people are enduring cuts in their cold weather payment, and millions are losing their jobs. Britain has to be the most insensitive nation on this planet.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:32 pm

Hang on. There seems to be an echo in here.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by bobby on Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:55 pm

Eddie the Eagle was our last true Olympian.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by jackthelad on Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:57 pm

bobby wrote:Eddie the Eagle was our last true Olympian.

Don't know about Eddie being an Olympian, but he deserves fullmarks for being a trier.

Can't say i agree with the title of this thread, when people are happy to pay loads of money to watch twentytwo men chase a ball round a field for an hour and a half, and those same twentytwo men will get paid more money for that one game than most people can earn in a year.

Olympians don't get paid, and most people love competion and want their countries olympians to win the medals. If anything, it's a break from all the doom and gloom.
That's how the Roman Emperors took the peoples minds of bad news, put on a few games, i wouldn't be keen on gladiatoral fights to the death though, unless it was a bunch of tories in the arena. Then i wouldn't mind a bit of blood and sand, i would always give the victor a thumbs down sign. Laughing
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:30 pm

Late result:
Hungry Lions 3 ........ Tories 0

Tomorrow will be a Public Holiday
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Shirina on Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:15 pm

That's how the Roman Emperors took the peoples minds of bad news
I was thinking the very same thing.

Talking about the gladiatorial games and the people who watch them, senator Graccus said of emperor Commodus: "He will give them death ... and they will love him for it."

A lot of people will love having the Olympics in London, bad news or not.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:17 pm

Shirina wrote:
That's how the Roman Emperors took the peoples minds of bad news
I was thinking the very same thing.

Talking about the gladiatorial games and the people who watch them, senator Graccus said of emperor Commodus: "He will give them death ... and they will love him for it."

A lot of people will love having the Olympics in London, bad news or not.

While millions of our elderly people are suffering, out of sight, out of mind.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Why don't you tell us about your suffering, Ivanhoe? Tell the truth and shame the Devil.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Why don't you tell us about your suffering, Ivanhoe? Tell the truth and shame the Devil.

Shame on you.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:40 pm

'To adventure, bold adventure watch him go....' Smile
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by astra on Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:22 pm

Wot race is 'e runnin'?

Worth a fiver each way?
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:37 pm

Does anyone believe that the Olympics can be stopped by public opposition?

Confucious, He say: "If rape inevitable, try to enjoy."
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:32 pm


When civilized societies begin to require that all suffering cease prior to the occurrence of any sporting event, sporting events will cease to occur.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:43 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
When civilized societies begin to require that all suffering cease prior to the occurrence of any sporting event, sporting events will cease to occur.

How profoundly true. When the Olympics happen, thousands of British people will be sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners will be dying of hunger and cold.

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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:22 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
When civilized societies begin to require that all suffering cease prior to the occurrence of any sporting event, sporting events will cease to occur.
Ivanhoe wrote:
How profoundly true.  When the Olympics happen, thousands of British people will be sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners will be dying of hunger and cold.

Four more factual statements:


  1. Right now, before the Olympics are to be held in London, thousands of British people are sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners are dying of hunger and cold.
  2. After the Olympics are held in London, thousands of British people will be sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners will be dying of hunger and cold.
  3. If the Olympics were never held in London, thousands of British people would be sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners would be dying of hunger and cold.
  4. If the Olympics were never held at all (anywhere or at any time), thousands of British people would be sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners would be dying of hunger and cold.



In 1980, United States President Jimmy Carter withdrew the United States Olympic Team from the Moscow Summer Olympic Games because Soviet tanks were rolling through Afghanistan. The Moscow Games occurred as planned, U.S. athletes were absent, and Soviet tanks continued to roll through Afghanistan.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:26 am

Sir Walter Scott, born 40 years before Charles Dickens, used 179,000 words to construct "Ivanhoe", but there is no mention of ".... thousands of British people .... sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners .... dying of hunger and cold."

What's the evidence for such a prognostication?
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:39 am

oftenwrong wrote:Sir Walter Scott, born 40 years before Charles Dickens, used 179,000 words to construct "Ivanhoe", but there is no mention of ".... thousands of British people .... sleeping in doorways, and thousands of UK pensioners .... dying of hunger and cold."

What's the evidence for such a prognostication?

You need evidence ?
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:47 am

From the horse's mouth, preferably.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivan on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:39 pm

Estimates of the full cost of the 2012 Olympics vary considerably, between £9.3 and £24 billion, depending on whether you include items such as the upgrading of transport infrastructure:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092077/London-2012-Olympics-cost-spiral-24bn--10-TIMES-higher-2005-estimate.html

Even accepting the lowest figure of a £9.3 billion claim on the public purse, that amounts to nearly £148 for every man, woman and child in the UK. That’s money which could be used to reduce the number of British people sleeping in doorways and pensioners dying of hunger and cold - and look, I’ve only had to say it once to get my point across!
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:48 pm

Ivan wrote:Estimates of the full cost of the 2012 Olympics vary considerably, between £9.3 and £24 billion, depending on whether you include items such as the upgrading of transport infrastructure:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092077/London-2012-Olympics-cost-spiral-24bn--10-TIMES-higher-2005-estimate.html

Even accepting the lowest figure of a £9.3 billion claim on the public purse, that amounts to nearly £148 for every man, woman and child in the UK. That’s money which could be used to reduce the number of British people sleeping in doorways and pensioners dying of hunger and cold - and look, I’ve only had to say it once to get my point across!

Ivan, point taken, I just made a few cock ups, nothing to write home about, and now my point is made.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:57 pm


Ivanhoe,

OW has posted a valid question. He has not indicated in any way that he (1) ignores the existence of the poor in London, or (2) advocates that the poor in London be ignored. He's asking a valid social science question, seeking evidence for either (1) a correlational relationship between the London Summer Olympic Games and the existence of poor people in London, and/or (2) a causative relationship between the London Summer Olympic Games and the existence of poor people in London.

The 1984 Los Angeles Summer Olympic Games, under the direction of Peter Ueberroth, turned a profit and pumped a massive dose of cold hard cash into community betterment programs in and around Los Angeles. Have you considered the possibility that the same thing might happen in London?
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:52 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Ivanhoe,

OW has posted a valid question. He has not indicated in any way that he (1) ignores the existence of the poor in London, or (2) advocates that the poor in London be ignored. He's asking a valid social science question, seeking evidence for either (1) a correlational relationship between the London Summer Olympic Games and the existence of poor people in London, and/or (2) a causative relationship between the London Summer Olympic Games and the existence of poor people in London.

The 1984 Los Angeles Summer Olympic Games, under the direction of Peter Ueberroth, turned a profit and pumped a massive dose of cold hard cash into community betterment programs in and around Los Angeles. Have you considered the possibility that the same thing might happen in London?

I am not interested in wealth creation locally. I am concerned about a fair distribution of wealth nationally. This we havent had since the 80's.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:27 pm

A fair distribution of wealth nationally.

That could be the Mission Statement of a completely new Political Party.

Has anyone thought of asking the wealthy to participate?
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:28 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Ivanhoe,

OW has posted a valid question. He has not indicated in any way that he (1) ignores the existence of the poor in London, or (2) advocates that the poor in London be ignored. He's asking a valid social science question, seeking evidence for either (1) a correlational relationship between the London Summer Olympic Games and the existence of poor people in London, and/or (2) a causative relationship between the London Summer Olympic Games and the existence of poor people in London.

The 1984 Los Angeles Summer Olympic Games, under the direction of Peter Ueberroth, turned a profit and pumped a massive dose of cold hard cash into community betterment programs in and around Los Angeles. Have you considered the possibility that the same thing might happen in London?
Ivanhoe wrote:
I am not interested in wealth creation locally.

Neither was Peter Ueberroth in Los Angeles, 1984. Mr. Ueberroth was interested in transforming the Summer Games into a cash flow rather than a cash drain scenario for the local economy of the host city and surrounding support cities.

Montreal was the catalyst. In 1976, Montreal went in the hole big time as a result of the Montreal Summer Games. Conversely, Los Angeles and support cities had a cash overflow, which according to law (I believe), since the Los Angeles Olympic Organizing Committee was a not for profit entity, could not be used in a for profit fashion. Because of this, the massive cash cache had to be distributed to other not for profit entities, and it was so distributed. Check out the recipients of this cash outflow on Google to see the positive impact. Poor people definitely benefitted.

Ivanhoe wrote:
I am concerned about a fair distribution of wealth nationally.  This we havent had since the 80's.

The London Games, if they generate cash that ultimately benefits London poor people, will benefit the UK.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:36 pm

I very much doubt the London Olympics will even cover the cost of the venue.

The only people who will benefit from these games will be those who will be able to afford all the nice new appartments that will come on the market, at sky high prices, once teh sportsmen and women have move out.....

I wouldn't be surprised if a few of our MP's moved in using their second home housing benefits........sorry I mean ALLOWANCE...
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by ROB on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:28 am

astradt1 wrote:
I very much doubt the London Olympics will even cover the cost of the venue.

Why? Serious question. Folks said that about LA 1984, and Ueberroth proved them wrong. It's just a matter of securing sponsors who pay through their noss for the privilege of being sponsors.
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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by astradt1 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:54 am

It's just a matter of securing sponsors who pay through their noss for the privilege of being sponsors.

Would these be the same companies which are laying off workers and cutting pay to cut costs?.........

Would this sponsorship be able to be used as a tax wright off, along with the £11 Billion they have managed to already avoid paying.....

Selling the games to companies like Mc D and Coke, those well know fonts of healthy eating along with companies which have been responsible for enviornmental damage seems like the ethical thing to do.........NOT

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Re: Do you agree that the Olympics are an obscenity?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:29 am

MotorCar Manufacturers with a leasing facility know that the monthly rental is only part of the calculation. Their profit (or loss) depends mainly on the "Residual" value of the vehicie when it is returned and sold as secondhand.

The "Cost" or hopefully "Value" of the 2012 Olympic Games will be the residual value of the site. Competitors' accommodation blocks have been designed to adapt easily to flats that we are told will include affordable offerings. Two London football clubs are arguing about which one will occupy the Stadium afterwards, and there is a notional value attaching to the River Lea's transition from stinking polluter to a sports park. The entire area should be a nicer place to live and work, with improved access to the rest of London.

None of the blessings or curses can be measured for at least another five years from now.

We may even have a better government by then.
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