Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

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Post by Ivan on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

In my opinion, the UK under our extreme right-wing government is rapidly degenerating into velvet glove fascism.

Like all fascists, Hitler was against trade unions and socialists. Similarly, Michael Gove vilified primary school teachers and dinner ladies, many of whom went on strike for the first time in their lives on 30 November last year, as “militants itching for a fight”. Gove has plans for military cadets in every school (Cameron Youth?) and a return to children sitting in rows reciting lists of kings and queens in history lessons, rather than learning to think. Hitler also realised how important history was to indoctrination when he ordered the mass burning of books. Tories close libraries.

Hitler made sure that he controlled the media. The Tories have cowed the BBC by threats of fragmentation and sharing the licence fee with others, such as Murdoch. The BBC, which was required to be impartial, has become just another mouthpiece for Tory propaganda. As soon as they came to power in 2010, the Tories instructed every minister to repeat over and over again the whopping lie that Labour, not Tory bankers, caused the global credit crisis. We have the repeated lie about everyone in the public sector getting “gold-plated pensions”, when the average is only £5,600 per annum. As Goebbels said: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Cameron has proved over and over again that he’s a pathological liar.

Hitler divided and ruled the German people by scapegoating Jews and gypsies. The Tories are demonising those who receive benefits, one result of which is that disability hate crimes are increasing. Duncan Smith went on breakfast television on 27 May 2010 and made the chilling remark: "Work makes you free". That's an exact translation of the sign which used to hang over the entrances to concentration camps.

The Tories have plans to force 50,000 disabled youth to work for companies such as Sainsbury's and Tesco's unpaid. Cancer patients are being made to undergo work assessments while being treated with chemotherapy, and wounded soldiers are being sacked. (Osborne is willing to take money from the disabled and cancer patients, but not prepared to veto Hester's bonus from the largely state-owned RBS.)

The police are being trained to shoot people with rubber bullets and will be issued with water cannon, yet the Tories were so keen on helping Arab rebels in North Africa. Two unknown Scottish teenagers made a joke on 'Facebook' about organising riots, and they both received four years in jail. A prominent Tory TV presenter (and personal friend of Cameron) made a tasteless joke about murdering trade unionists on prime time television; nothing was done about it and the BBC continue to pay him £1 million a year of our money.

We don't have any concentration camps in the UK, but the principles are the same - propaganda, indoctrination, and divide and rule by demonising a section of the population. While Hitler gassed Jews, the Tories clearly don't care if benefit claimants starve to death. Even payments from the Social Fund, for those in the most desperate need, will no longer be available from job centres but will be at the 'discretion' of local councils, who will not have to ring-fence the money. All the ingredients of fascism are there, but it's just being handed out to us in a more genteel form than Hitler used - in velvet gloves.



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Post by Mel on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:07 pm

blue. Quote---"So how can we change our culture when personal greed is at the top of most peoples wish list at all levels of society"

Not a lot of chance of change now blue, unless of course we have some sort of catastrophe that pulls people together as they did during and for a time after WW11. Until that bitch forced things to change and condoned greed when we were a nation of love thy neighbour in so many respects.

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Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:44 pm

Tories are, by inclination, Fascists, but the reality is that the British electorate are never going to choose a Fascist administration.

So they have a pretty face, such as David Cameron, to represent them in public.
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Post by Adele Carlyon on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:05 pm

Pretty bloody awful face if you ask me! He looks like a bloated balding broadbean! Tories are a bunch of fascists for sure. Everything is just black and white to them, what a pity that they never see the joy and goodness in all those other lovely colours...but that would mean having a heart and a soul in stead of a self centered swinging brick! They make me wanna puke!
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Post by blueturando on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:01 am

Tories are a bunch of fascists for sure

Really???? Come on Adele, do you know what Fascist really means?

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Post by biglin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:17 am

The simple answer to the question in the title of the thread is 'no.'

I am not a fan of the Tories (though some individual Conservatives are OK) but overall their whole philosophy is completely alien to me.

On the other hand to call them fascists (velvet glove or otherwise) devalues the REAL threat from fascism.

I have a bit of history with the BNP and am quite proud that I dealt with them in an appropriate way a few years ago.

I also worry about the EDL who certainly have a lot of overlap with the BNP but are racist in only one direction rather than the blanket racism the BNP shows.

As for the Tories, they're mostly a bunch of wallies with a few dangerous loopers and some decent blokes who I can't understand what they're doing there!

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Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:46 am

Let us now praise famous men ....

"As for the Tories, they're mostly a bunch of wallies with a few dangerous loopers and some decent blokes ...."

Obviously some decent blokes. The Law of averages takes care of that, but after Ken Clarke there's only ummm, errrr, (cough).

However nice they may be as individuals, the Party Whip ensures that they all snarl to the same tune.
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Post by biglin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:19 pm

But the Party Whip applies across the board. For what it's worth in recent years the Tory back benchers have been more rebellious than either Labour or the Lib Dems (and I can't remember the SNP or Plaid Cymru ever having to face a back bench rebellion).

Fascism is a subject I know a lot about and conservatism is certainly NOT a philosophy I go along with.

But speaking as someone who lost family members in Auschwitz I think calling the Tories fascists is trivialising and disrespectful to victims of genuine fascism.

The EDL and BNP are fascists; much as I dislike the Tories they ain't fascists!

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Post by Ivan on Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:51 pm

biglin. Welcome to our little community.

Fascism is basically corporatism, where functions of the state which were previously democratically controlled are handed over to big business and all democratic accountability is forfeited. What’s happened in the UK in the last two years is precisely that, with everything in sight being privatised, even police dog handlers. Fascism to you may conjure up images of Belsen and Auschwitz, and that’s why I termed what’s happening “velvet glove fascism”, so much more subtle – and probably much more effective – than what Hitler and Mussolini dished up. But fascism it is all the same.
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Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:30 pm

The dividing line seems to be set at whether you trust in people to be generally well-intentioned, or regard everyone else as a potential threat.
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Post by sickchip on Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:00 pm

It could easily be insinuated, or argued, that the introduction of the minimum wage was 'velvet gloved fascism'......a poison chalice for the plebs?
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Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:11 pm

sickchip wrote:It could easily be insinuated, or argued, that the introduction of the minimum wage was 'velvet gloved fascism'......a poison chalice for the plebs?

There can be little doubt that many people would be interested to consider your argument, sickchip.
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Post by Mel on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:49 am

The government announced on Friday the introduction of a fee of up to £1,200 for taking claims to an employment tribunal.

Unions branded the decision a disgrace and warned that workers would be denied their right to justice.

Business groups welcomed the move, but complained that most claimants would be exempt from the new rules.

Ministers said tribunals cost the taxpayer more than £84m a year, with no contribution from those taking claims.

Cases involving unpaid wages and redundancy pay will have an initial fee of £160 and a charge of £230 if it goes to a hearing, while those relating to unfair dismissal, discrimination complaints and equal pay claims will have an issue fee of £250 and a hearing fee of £950.
Extract Guardian.

More power to the employers as Tories attempt to destroy the rights of the workforce.
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Post by BobEllard on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:35 am

Mel wrote:The government announced on Friday the introduction of a fee of up to £1,200 for taking claims to an employment tribunal.

Unions branded the decision a disgrace and warned that workers would be denied their right to justice.

Business groups welcomed the move, but complained that most claimants would be exempt from the new rules.

Ministers said tribunals cost the taxpayer more than £84m a year, with no contribution from those taking claims.

Cases involving unpaid wages and redundancy pay will have an initial fee of £160 and a charge of £230 if it goes to a hearing, while those relating to unfair dismissal, discrimination complaints and equal pay claims will have an issue fee of £250 and a hearing fee of £950.
Extract Guardian.

More power to the employers as Tories attempt to destroy the rights of the workforce.

I missed this and a lot of other people did as well,

Are you on twitter Mel, I think this is something that should be publicised. Do you have a link to the Guardian article?

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Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:41 pm

When the Tories demanded "Less Red Tape" upon being elected as part of a Coalition, Labour-law is what they mean. Employers resent the cost of sick pay and maternity benefit, and their contribution to National Insurance generally. English Justice normally requires the losers of a case to pay the entire costs of that case - which clearly means that "ordinary" people will think twice before even embarking upon litigation.

The next thing they want to tackle is "elf 'n' safety" which has an obvious cost that has a direct effect on a firm's profitability. In the good old days miners could be left buried underground, process workers poisoned and the injured cast onto the scrap-heap with no compensation, but a hundred years of Trade Union pressure for Justice is about to be laid aside.

We've got to get these bastards out of office while we're still alive.
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Post by BobEllard on Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:54 pm

oftenwrong wrote:When the Tories demanded "Less Red Tape" upon being elected as part of a Coalition, Labour-law is what they mean. Employers resent the cost of sick pay and maternity benefit, and their contribution to National Insurance generally. English Justice normally requires the losers of a case to pay the entire costs of that case - which clearly means that "ordinary" people will think twice before even embarking upon litigation.

The next thing they want to tackle is "elf 'n' safety" which has an obvious cost that has a direct effect on a firm's profitability. In the good old days miners could be left buried underground, process workers poisoned and the injured cast onto the scrap-heap with no compensation, but a hundred years of Trade Union pressure for Justice is about to be laid aside.

We've got to get these bastards out of office while we're still alive.

I agree with everything you say. And there is also Minimum Wage. I'm amazed they haven't had a go at scrapping it yet. It can only be a matter of time
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Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:09 pm

Probably because the minimum wage is widely circumvented. Many catering staff are expected to live on tips alone, and the underworld of illegal immigrants have to be grateful for what they're given.

Breaking news is the embarassment of insufficient Security Operatives for the Olympic sites. This is due to the Industry practice of not calling them in until the moment they're required - that in the particular case has not been flexible enough to fill the obligation. Many other jobs in seasonal employment cease to exist in bad weather when the punters stay indoors.

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Post by Mel on Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:24 pm

Hello bob,
I am not on twitter my friend, know nothing about it as a bit too old in the tooth I fear.

The article was in yesterdays Guardian--- No link

13 Jul 2012: Rogue bosses will be able to flout the law without fear of sanction, says TUC chief Brendan Barber.
You can Google Guardian today and you will find it under politics.
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Post by astra on Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:46 pm

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Post by Mel on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:36 pm

Thanks astra.
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Post by astra on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:57 pm

No probs Mel,


I meant to enter a sentence or two as feelings on this subject, but was dragged hurriedly away.

Now I forgot the highly erudite statement!

Is it me?
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Post by Redflag on Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:31 pm

BobEllard wrote:
Mel wrote:The government announced on Friday the introduction of a fee of up to £1,200 for taking claims to an employment tribunal.

Unions branded the decision a disgrace and warned that workers would be denied their right to justice.

Business groups welcomed the move, but complained that most claimants would be exempt from the new rules.

Ministers said tribunals cost the taxpayer more than £84m a year, with no contribution from those taking claims.

Cases involving unpaid wages and redundancy pay will have an initial fee of £160 and a charge of £230 if it goes to a hearing, while those relating to unfair dismissal, discrimination complaints and equal pay claims will have an issue fee of £250 and a hearing fee of £950.
Extract Guardian.

More power to the employers as Tories attempt to destroy the rights of the workforce.

I missed this and a lot of other people did as well,

Are you on twitter Mel, I think this is something that should be publicised. Do you have a link to the Guardian article?


You should watch more of the BBC Parliament channel BobEllard, even I have seen that one the Tories doing their best to destroy the workers rights, what they have not worked out this will cause more strikes.
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Post by Stox 16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:03 am

Adele Carlyon wrote:Pretty bloody awful face if you ask me! He looks like a bloated balding broadbean! Tories are a bunch of fascists for sure. Everything is just black and white to them, what a pity that they never see the joy and goodness in all those other lovely colours...but that would mean having a heart and a soul in stead of a self centered swinging brick! They make me wanna puke!

Could not agree more with this Delly.
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Post by Stox 16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:05 am

Mel wrote:The government announced on Friday the introduction of a fee of up to £1,200 for taking claims to an employment tribunal.

Unions branded the decision a disgrace and warned that workers would be denied their right to justice.

Business groups welcomed the move, but complained that most claimants would be exempt from the new rules.

Ministers said tribunals cost the taxpayer more than £84m a year, with no contribution from those taking claims.

Cases involving unpaid wages and redundancy pay will have an initial fee of £160 and a charge of £230 if it goes to a hearing, while those relating to unfair dismissal, discrimination complaints and equal pay claims will have an issue fee of £250 and a hearing fee of £950.
Extract Guardian.

More power to the employers as Tories attempt to destroy the rights of the workforce.

Mel that is totally disgusting if you ask me.
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Post by Redflag on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:23 am

Adele Carlyon wrote:Pretty bloody awful face if you ask me! He looks like a bloated balding broadbean! Tories are a bunch of fascists for sure. Everything is just black and white to them, what a pity that they never see the joy and goodness in all those other lovely colours...but that would mean having a heart and a soul in stead of a self centered swinging brick! They make me wanna puke!

Maybe AC we should introduce them to that book that is out at the moment 50 SHADES OF GREY.
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Post by Stox 16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:51 pm

Redflag wrote:
Adele Carlyon wrote:Pretty bloody awful face if you ask me! He looks like a bloated balding broadbean! Tories are a bunch of fascists for sure. Everything is just black and white to them, what a pity that they never see the joy and goodness in all those other lovely colours...but that would mean having a heart and a soul in stead of a self centered swinging brick! They make me wanna puke!

Maybe AC we should introduce them to that book that is out at the moment 50 SHADES OF GREY.

I am with you there Red.
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Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:54 am

blueturando wrote:
You mustn't say how the bulk of the media is pro Fascism, Bluey will accuse you of being Paranoid as he did me

Sometimes I think some of you lot have been smoking the funny stuff, but I have just come to the conlcusion that you are all wannbee Woolfie Smiths.

IVAN....Your opening post is quite laughable if it wasn't a blatent disrespect for the millions who gave their lives to fight Hilter and his National Socialist German Workers' Party.....Yes you read is correctly, its all in the name
All that you stand for is Fascist.....The socialist ideal of total government control over the population, nationalised industry, the nanny state, not improving the quality of peoples lives, but bringing everyone down to a lower level. It's you lot who are quite scary....all fascists in the making!!!!

Bluey, you are parroting the media. Think for yourself man. We are not talking State control, we are talking about the obscenity of private companies being allow to run for profit and greed, our vital services like the railways and the utilities, hence excessive charges which the poor can ill afford to pay.

We are talking about the income tax and NI insurance UK workers pay into the system over a working life, coming back to all of us in well funded nationalised services, the NHS, Community Care, and a State pension increasing via the true wealth of this nation, for everybody.

Thatcher taught us greed and selfishness, that there is no such thing as society, or community, she taught us that old people dont matter, that the disabled dont matter, that basically vulnerable pople dont matter, and she proceeded to reduce the role of what the State delivered to these people, she began by breakinjg the link that kept old age pensions increasing with British prosperity over 30 years ago, today millions of pensioners still live on a pittance of a basic State pension, and they have contributed to the system all their working lives.

Are you proud of what Thatcher did, bluey ?

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Post by Mel on Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:29 pm

All very true Ivanhoe cheers
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Post by Bunnyrunner on Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:15 pm

NO. Next question please.:albino:
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Post by Ivan on Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:59 pm

NO. Next question please.

Bunnyrunner. Thank you for that comprehensive and erudite response. (Was it really worth the bother of posting it?)

"We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike”, said Hitler in 1933. Does that sound familiar? Hitler stated that the disabled were a burden on society it couldn't afford. Cameron says that the welfare bill cannot be afforded by our society today.

Next question, you ask. Did you read any of the arguments on this thread before jumping to a conclusion?

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Post by Bunnyrunner on Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:59 pm

But...Still not Fascists then?
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Post by Bunnyrunner on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:00 pm

Oh...and Ivan...Yes, is was worth posting. I have read the other posts (at least, the ones that dealt with the subject) and decided that erudition was the best course.
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Post by Redflag on Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:48 pm

BobEllard wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:When the Tories demanded "Less Red Tape" upon being elected as part of a Coalition, Labour-law is what they mean. Employers resent the cost of sick pay and maternity benefit, and their contribution to National Insurance generally. English Justice normally requires the losers of a case to pay the entire costs of that case - which clearly means that "ordinary" people will think twice before even embarking upon litigation.

The next thing they want to tackle is "elf 'n' safety" which has an obvious cost that has a direct effect on a firm's profitability. In the good old days miners could be left buried underground, process workers poisoned and the injured cast onto the scrap-heap with no compensation, but a hundred years of Trade Union pressure for Justice is about to be laid aside.

We've got to get these bastards out of office while we're still alive.

I agree with everything you say. And there is also Minimum Wage. I'm amazed they haven't had a go at scrapping it yet. It can only be a matter of time

Do not speak too soon BobEllard, that will be the next thing on his hit list I would not worry he will get round too it he believes in keeping the poor even poorer.
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Post by betty.noire on Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:38 pm

If things are that bad why don't you all up sticks and live in a communist tractor factory in North Korea or something ? Laughing
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Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:52 pm

I've never seen a communist tractor.

What I have seen since May 2010 , however, is a very unpleasant and spiteful government which is not only not interested in the welfare of some of the most vulnerable people in Britain, but actively promotes policies which favour the already well-off.

And anyway, I have no doubt that political hypocrisy is alive and well in North Korea as, indeed, it is in Cameron's Britain... Shocked


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Post by Ivan on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Redflag. The minimum wage has already been undermined by these various 'workfare' schemes, with people being made to work for Tesco and other firms for nothing whilst on benefits. When Cameron's father was touting for work for his vile son, I'm quite sure he didn't offer his services free.

betty.noire. I shall treat your crass remark with the contempt it deserves. This is our country as much as yours, and we have a hybrid government which nobody voted for carrying out things which weren't in the manifesto of either party and not even in the coalition agreement. We have every right to be bloody angry about it.
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Post by Mel on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:59 pm

Things are "that bad", in fact they are worse than bad and will get even worse unless the British public along with ALL the Unions unite and go on all out strike. Otherwise things will get beyond repair and these buggers in power know it.
Perhaps those who do not consider things "bad" at present are of the minority well off or else they are prepared to see others suffer without a care, until too late they become badly affected themselves. Let us then ask them if they think "things are worse" when they too are suffering the maulings of these tyrants.
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Are the Tories velvet glove fascists? - Page 13 Empty Re: Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

Post by betty.noire on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:12 pm

Usual over emotive response. You really should try and cut down on the purple prose Rolling Eyes
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Are the Tories velvet glove fascists? - Page 13 Empty Re: Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:30 pm

" why don't you all up sticks and live in a communist tractor factory in North Korea "

...followed by :

"Usual over emotive response"


Do we detect some double standards here? - and without even the benefit of some 'purple prose' to disguise the hypocrisy. Tut tut, indeed...... Very Happy


Last edited by Phil Hornby on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Are the Tories velvet glove fascists? - Page 13 Empty Re: Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

Post by KnarkyBadger on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:31 pm

Mel wrote:Things are "that bad", in fact they are worse than bad and will get even worse unless the British public along with ALL the Unions unite and go on all out strike. Otherwise things will get beyond repair and these buggers in power know it.
Perhaps those who do not consider things "bad" at present are of the minority well off or else they are prepared to see others suffer without a care, until too late they become badly affected themselves. Let us then ask them if they think "things are worse" when they too are suffering the maulings of these tyrants.

Totally agree! Especially re unions the TUC and the union leadership (PCS excepted) needs to fight. If they dont thye grassroots should force them out. Its the only way - you can not negotiate with this government, they are not of us and dont care.
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Are the Tories velvet glove fascists? - Page 13 Empty Re: Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

Post by betty.noire on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:41 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:" why don't you all up sticks and live in a communist tractor factory in North Korea "

...followed by :

"Usual over emotive response"


Do we detect some double standards here? - and without even the benefit of some 'purple prose' to disguise the hypocrisy. Tut tut, indeed...... Very Happy

Just trying to inject some humour
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Are the Tories velvet glove fascists? - Page 13 Empty Re: Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

Post by betty.noire on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:42 pm

KnarkyBadger wrote:
Mel wrote:Things are "that bad", in fact they are worse than bad and will get even worse unless the British public along with ALL the Unions unite and go on all out strike. Otherwise things will get beyond repair and these buggers in power know it.
Perhaps those who do not consider things "bad" at present are of the minority well off or else they are prepared to see others suffer without a care, until too late they become badly affected themselves. Let us then ask them if they think "things are worse" when they too are suffering the maulings of these tyrants.

Totally agree! Especially re unions the TUC and the union leadership (PCS excepted) needs to fight. If they dont thye grassroots should force them out. Its the only way - you can not negotiate with this government, they are not of us and dont care.

Typical socialst response, dont get what you want, throw your rattle out of the pram
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