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Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

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Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Ivan on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

Bertrand Russell once said that “the immense majority of intellectually eminent men disbelieve in Christian religion”, and research appears to support that remark. Michael Shermer, in ‘How We Believe: The Search For God In An Age Of Science’, describes a large survey of randomly chosen Americans that he and his colleague Frank Sulloway carried out. Among their many results was the discovery that religiosity is negatively correlated with education (more highly educated people are less likely to be religious). Paul Bell, writing in ‘Mensa Magazine’ in 2002 told us: “Of 43 studies carried out since 1927 on the relationship between religious belief and one’s intelligence and/or educational level, all but four found an inverse connection. That is, the higher one’s intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold ‘beliefs’ of any kind.”

Satoshi Kanazawa, an evolutionary psychologist at the London School of Economics and Political Science, suggests that more intelligent people are more likely to adopt evolutionarily novel preferences and values. He said: "Humans are evolutionarily designed to be paranoid, and they believe in God because they are paranoid. This innate bias toward paranoia served humans well when self-preservation and protection of their families and clans depended on extreme vigilance to all potential dangers. So, more intelligent children are more likely to grow up to go against their natural evolutionary tendency to believe in God, and they become atheists.”

Data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (NLSAH) supports Kanazawa's hypothesis. Young adults who identify themselves as 'not at all religious' have an average IQ of 103 during adolescence, while those who identify themselves as 'very religious' have an average IQ of 97 during adolescence.

Shermer says that religiosity is also negatively correlated with interest in science and strongly with political liberalism. And the NLSAH data suggests that young adults who subjectively identify themselves as 'very liberal' have an average IQ of 106 during adolescence, while those who identify themselves as 'very conservative' have an average IQ of 95 during adolescence.

Does this mean that people with left-wing views are more intelligent than those on the right? I’ve long thought that those with the independence of mind to be unaffected by the constant brainwashing attempts of the right-wing media must have a critical faculty which those who succumb to Tory and Republican propaganda clearly lack. It also appears to be the conclusion of experts at Brock University in Ontario, Canada, who studied research comparing childhood intelligence with political views in adulthood in 15,000 people. They found that intelligence, rather than education, wealth or social status, decides whether people are narrow-minded or bigoted in later life. Their report has been published in a journal called ‘Psychological Science’ and states: “Those with lower cognitive abilities may gravitate towards socially conservative right-wing ideologies that maintain the status quo. That is because it provides a sense of order". The authors found a strong link between low intelligence both as a child and an adult, and right-wing politics.

Sources used, and for further details:-

Richard Dawkins, ‘The God Delusion’, Bantam Press, 2006, p.102-3

http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/48586-intelligent-people-more-likely-to-be-left-wing-atheists

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/2012/02/04/labour-supporters-are-cleverer-than-tories-canadian-study-claims-115875-23734718/


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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by astradt1 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:40 pm

Throughout history there has been signs and omens that if studied in a proper manner will give good grounds for anyones faith

What does 'a proper manner' mean?


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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:30 pm

Polyglide Quote

Just have another little look at Reverlations, and tell me who could make this up.

You give me your interpretation of Revelations and I'll show you

another 10, all different.

It is one book in the Bible I have read and left alone. It is down to individual interpretation.

It poses problems about the Mother of Harlots 'Babylon'. Who is 'she'.

Who are the 144,000 thousand 'who are virgins'. Men, not defiled with women. What about the women.

Who are the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, and why are the Tribes named different to the 12 tribes in the OT? There is an answer, but you have to seek it in the OT.

And there are a lot more questions than answers

The visions of Daniel and Ezekiel were pretty dramatic. Zechariah had a right time with a man on a red horse, chariots, flying rolls and horns.

The Bible is full of picture language to explain events unexplainable in terms of the time they were written. Maybe the writer of Revelations was inspired. Maybe this is prophecy. We will only know when, if, it happens.

There are probably more interpretations of Revelation than any other Bible book.

Many other things in it come with the understanding of early Christian expectations.

Who could write the Song of Solomon with all its beauty, and yet its truth is down to interpretation. And yet some Victorians regarded it a pornographic.

Revelation is a great book to read. Don't expect to agree with everyone, Christian or not, who has read it, as to its interpretation.

Good luck with your postings.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:40 pm

As usual Polyglide glides off into the sunset. Are you there?

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Papaumau on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:59 pm


Awful truth said in a reply to a comment by Shirina:

Just re-read this: I totally agree. The Old Testament is really a ragbag of literary, mythological, whimsical, fictional, legalistic and simplistic accretions, sometimes of such a dangerous nature that it is of no surprise that the Anglican church once blessed the death penalty for over 100 common crimes in the 18th century.

Thankfully, these draconian (some biblical) laws were just too harsh. Including the law that allowed children as young as six years to be hung for theft! I kid you not... The prima facie evidence, as written down by witnesses, actually shocked me to the core. One boy was crying for his mother when the noose was put around his neck. Horrifying, but indicative of a confused church willing to sanction such terrible punishment. And they wonder why religion has such a dwindling following?

Yes, and I totally agree that the churches and the priests of all denominations have proven to be so unstable in what they consider as being acceptable to do in each section of history, that this just proves that they can interpret the already flawed teachings in their holy books in any way that they like and in fact to suit the ethics and morals of the day.

With such awful happenings being condoned and even supported by the barbaric rules in and out of the churches that were acceptable in those days, is it any wonder that people like me now exist ? ( Atheists I mean ).

I mean... that if any open-minded and examining person looks closely at the stuff written in the holy books - without having a dogmatic stance of belief already in their minds - SURELY they must see that these tomes are stock full of rubbish and should never be used as a map to plan future ethics and morals around.

Regards.....

Papaumau.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:53 pm

Papaumau.

Yes, well said.

The problem is the sanctimonious, disingenuous cant that these anti-Christian people think they are free to spew out. Yet they boast about being 'Christians' as if it were a façade behind which they can hide their sometimes savage little brains.

I saw a guy on The Big Questions recently who stated, unequivocally, that every single word in the old and new testament was the inalienable word and command of God! Even though this fundamentalist ideologue's argument for such a simplistic assertion, was about as logical or rational as believing Elvis Presley was a god, he just sat there as if his marbles had turned to dust. He would not capitulate or moderate his one view for anyone. Set in stone.

Human nature is sometimes so off the wall, all for the worse, that these fundamentalists can represent a very dangerous mindset that sees fit to cast aspersians, condemnations and draconian judgements on people, et al.

In Deuteronomy it speaks of skinning people alive as a form of punishment: is that the word of God! I despair. confused

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:09 pm

In Deuteronomy it speaks of skinning people alive as a form of punishment: is that the word of God! I despair. confused






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confused This was a particularly nasty practise of the Assyrians. Not aware the Hebrews practised it.

If your interested google Asshurnarsipal II. Now there was a nasty piece of work.Twisted Evil


I saw a guy on The Big Questions recently who stated, unequivocally, that every single word in the old and new testament was the inalienable word and command of God! Even though this fundamentalist ideologue's argument for such a simplistic assertion, was about as logical or rational as believing Elvis Presley was a god, he just sat there as if his marbles had turned to dust. He would not capitulate or moderate his one view for anyone. Set in stone


Saw the same. Don't tell the vicar, I should have been in churchEmbarassed

Why can't people read the Bible with open minds.
On both sides.
The Bible contains many terrible atrocities, in line with the history of the time. You were either strong and ruthless, or you went to the wall.
I'm not excusing what happened. While the two nations Israel and Judah were united they were reasonably strong and survived. When they split they became vulnerable and one after the other fell to the Assyrians, who took Israel. and dispersed them throughout their empire. The Babylonians took Judah. Though they were allowed home under the Persian Empire.

You have to learn to 'read' the Bible.

3 quick examples and I'll shut up.

The Israelies faced any army of 100,000 men with their 30,000. Who actually counted? It is doubtful that either 'army' could actually raise that number. What the Bible is saying is that the Israeli's were greatly outnumbered.
There are 2 accounts of David's life. One brief, the other long. In some cases 'facts' differ. Why? Simply because one writer was interested in David's personal life (biography), the other in statistics around David's people and army etc (historian). That's putting it simply.
Lastly. The Gospels vary considerably. Why? They (the writers) were all writing to different groups of people, so they wrote those things they thought their readers should know.
Luke wrote, though chronologically wrong, about the lead up to Jesus Birth because his reader/s was/were Greek. The others to people who were aware of Jewish History.

One interesting thing. Many things were attributed to the King, when he didn't actually do them. Made him look good.
David, for instance, should have been with his army besieging a city, according to one account. We know he wasn't by another account. He was actually committing adultery at the time:oops:

Now I'll shut up.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:51 pm

Breaking News.....

We can stop worrying about the Assyrians.

They're all dead.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:10 pm

by oftenwrong Today at 9:51 pm



Breaking News.....

We can stop worrying about the Assyrians.

They're all dead.

Then you needn't worry if a horse and chariot park outside your house tonight:lol: How much is it to park. I'll need change.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Papaumau on Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:30 pm


Awful Truth said:

I saw a guy on The Big Questions recently who stated, unequivocally, that every single word in the old and new testament was the inalienable word and command of God! Even though this fundamentalist ideologue's argument for such a simplistic assertion, was about as logical or rational as believing Elvis Presley was a god, he just sat there as if his marbles had turned to dust. He would not capitulate or moderate his one view for anyone. Set in stone.

And here - I believe - is the great danger that we all suffer under because of blind and uncompromising faith.

Once even the most previously-reasonable person is caught in that trap of dogma we find that there is little room left for the views of others or even for basic common sense.

Of course the obvious target here must be - from the point of view of the secular West - that it is the fundamentalist Muslims that are the great source of a lot of fear, but if we think about it, I believe that all fundamentalist religious teachings, including the Christian ones and the Judaic ones can be just as dangerous.

I have always believed that extremism in any form is counter-productive to a happy and a freedom from fear life for the rest of us.

Regards....

Papaumau.

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by polyglide on Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:13 pm

Seek and ye shall find.

The bible is a book inspired by God but written by man.

There has never been anything in which man has been involved that has not in some way been misused or wrongly accounted.

The original writing may have been altered to some extent and added to to make a better understanding and many of the events we take at face value are in fact just a way of expressing a certain point and not to be taken literally.

Those who seek the truth and look at all the facts relative to the Bible and look for the reasons why some things do not appear to be quite right will find the answers whilst those with daft ideas regarding evolution will still be in a dream world.

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Shirina on Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:08 pm

whilst those with daft ideas regarding evolution will still be in a dream world.
Religious dogma has been losing ground to science for the last 100,000 years. That's not going to change.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:43 pm

What a comfort it must be to participate in a discussion which can never have a definitive resolution.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:28 am

It is very simple:

The reason why people question the efficacy of 'religion' is that modern human rights tenets inform people that some religious organizations have very little to do with justice, let alone the actual doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Any religion that conflicts with basic human rights is a bad religion.

This week, for example, the Catholic Church of Cuba, when questioned as to why the growing Catholic church in Cuba was not fighting more for the human rights of Cubans, stated that his church was not concerned with human rights but wanted to further the message of Christ (read Catholic mantra).

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:16 pm

oftenwrong wrote:What a comfort it must be to participate in a discussion which can never have a definitive resolution.



Ahh but Oftenwrong....it does !

The ones that are looking for a definitive answer find almost all of their answers in science ! ( We don't know everything yet ). The ones of faith are not even looking for a definitive answer to anything as they accept what they read in their holy books as true simply because they believe it to be so. They do not require or want proof, as to even look for proof suggests that their faith is weak.

Regards.....

Papaumau.


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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by polyglide on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:03 pm

There will never be proof of evolution because it is not a viable alternative to creation, science has been trying to prove evolution for 100,000 years and is no nearer aswering my quesion regarding the life cycle of a butterfly and a little wren, other than saying they evolved in stages, just give me the stages from the pool of volcanic liquid to the actual beings and without any supposition just plain facts stage by stage and I will consider the result with good grace but I am afraid I would be waitiong forever because it makes no sense whatsoever.

We may also add the acorn and the oak tree.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:42 pm

polyglide wrote:There will never be proof of evolution because it is not a viable alternative to creation, science has been trying to prove evolution for 100,000 years and is no nearer aswering my quesion regarding the life cycle of a butterfly and a little wren, other than saying they evolved in stages, just give me the stages from the pool of volcanic liquid to the actual beings and without any supposition just plain facts stage by stage and I will consider the result with good grace but I am afraid I would be waitiong forever because it makes no sense whatsoever.

We may also add the acorn and the oak tree.

Religion is in the same boat then. We suppose there is a God. We have no physical proof.

We suppose he created all things. We have no physical proof.

We suppose he inspired the Bible. We have no physical proof.

Everything we have is based on one thing - faith. Faith in God, Qu'ran or whatever it may be.

In fact proof is all on the side of science. I'm not a scientist, and I doubt anyone here can go through the whole procedure of evolution in intimate detail. Putting together all the facts, big and small, would take many years, many scientists, biologists and other ...ists, and if it were to be done I suspect neither you or I would have sufficient knowledge or understanding to comprehend even the smallest part.

I happen to believe in evolution. I also believe in a being beyond my understanding who started it all. But I cannot, and will not, accept 'creation' literally, as recorded in the Bible, and previous variations of the same. That doesn't make sense.

If you can understand the period in which these things were written i.e. their lack of knowledge of real biology, of evolution, of the aeons of time before their period, you can understand why they wrote as they did.

In 4000 years science will dwarf ours, as ours does our predecessors. People will look back at us as being almost savages, ignorant and warmongering, diverse opposing cultures with little real understanding.

And that's while they are taking a day trip to Mars to visit grandma.Smile

Good luck with your searching and beliefs.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Shirina on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:09 pm

science has been trying to prove evolution for 100,000 years

Charles Darwin posited his theory 100,000 years ago? Damn, the first printing of his book must be worth a fortune!

Religious, supernatural, and magical explanations for events in our universe have never panned out. Not once. Ever. Invariably, all of those things we once attributed to a god have been explained scientifically, and while it always takes time for religion to adjust, it always does until religion itself accepts the scientific explanation over the superstitious one. The current theory on evolution may someday prove to be wrong, but not because science gives way to Adam and Eve. It will only be wrong if a better scientific theory is proven to be right.

Science is sometimes wrong. Much of the time, however, science is proven to be correct. Religion has NEVER been proven correct, and people all over the world have been believing in this or that since before Sumeria. There has been plenty of time for religious belief - regardless of flavor - to be proven true.

In addition, religion is stagnant. God does not hand us updated versions of holy texts. If religion changes at all, its only because science rendered part of it obsolete. Science, on the other hand, is dynamic and sometimes fluid. It can admit its errors and seek to correct them whereas religion, in many cases, still dwells in the Bronze Age. Temporal distance has made religion immune to true scrutiny which is why billions can believe God told Abraham to sacrifice his son and see Abraham as a true believer ... but if a mother of today drowns her children because "God told her to," then she's not only insane, she's a murderer. Fortunately, the mother of today does not have that temporal distance protecting her, but should this story survive for 6,000 years, that same mother might end up becoming another Abraham - a true believer and keeper of the faith.

Since modern religious experiences are poo-pooed away as the ravings of lunatics - even by other believers - nothing new occurs within religion and so nothing knew is learned. Science, however, expands our minds into an infinity of possibilities.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:27 pm


Darwinism, aka macro-evolution, has never been proven. In fact, either Darwinism is misnamed “theory” or Einstein’s General and Special Theories of Relativity are misnamed “theories.”

Darwinism can neither be replicated nor verified in any way. Einstein’s E=mc2 is currently being replicated in each operational United States Navy CVN and each United States Navy and Royal Navy SSN, SSBN, and SSGN (US Navy). Einstein’s General Theory was verified in the 1920s during a solar eclipse, when an astronomer measured the bending of light around the sun.

Either Darwinism is a theory, and Einstein’s theories are not, or Einstein’s theories are theories, and Darwinism is not.

Finches in the Galapagos? Compelling evidence of micro-evolution, nothing whatsoever to do with macro-evolution.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Shirina on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:40 pm

Finches in the Galapagos? Compelling evidence of micro-evolution, nothing whatsoever to do with macro-evolution.

The problem that I have seen innumerable times in these discussions is the over-use of the False Dilemma fallacy. Creationists argue that the lack of proof for evolution equates to definitive proof of a Creator. It simply doesn't work that way (which is why the argument is fallacious).
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:25 pm

Embarassed Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?
by Shirina Today at 7:09 pm






science has been trying to prove evolution for 100,000 years

Charles Darwin posited his theory 100,000 years ago? Damn, the first printing of his book must be worth a fortune

Unfortunately it was carved in stone and dropped coming down the mountain. Hang on. That was the 10 commandments
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:09 pm

polyglide wrote:There will never be proof of evolution because it is not a viable alternative to creation, science has been trying to prove evolution for 100,000 years and is no nearer aswering my quesion regarding the life cycle of a butterfly and a little wren, other than saying they evolved in stages, just give me the stages from the pool of volcanic liquid to the actual beings and without any supposition just plain facts stage by stage and I will consider the result with good grace but I am afraid I would be waitiong forever because it makes no sense whatsoever.

We may also add the acorn and the oak tree.


Though some of God's creatures never get beyond the first stage of evolution.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:28 am

Shirina wrote:
The problem that I have seen innumerable times in these discussions is the over-use of the False Dilemma fallacy. Creationists…

My name is not “Creationists.”

Shirina wrote:
… argue that the lack of proof for evolution equates to definitive proof of a Creator.

Have you seen me argues such? Since I cannot remember ever putting forth that argument, could you tell me when and where I did so?

I have stated as fact that, Galapagos finches notwithstanding, Darwinism, a model, a conjectured scenario, cannot be replicated or verified in any way. In contrast, Einstein’s Theories of Relativity have been repeatedly verified, and E=mc2 is being replicated aboard every operational CVN, SSN, SSBN, and SSGN as I type.

I stand on that which I have said. The arguments of someone I do not know, I believe you called her/him “Creationists”, are irrelevant to the position upon which I stand.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Shirina on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:37 am

My name is not “Creationists.”
So you're saying that you no longer believe the universe was created by The Creator?
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:07 am

Shirina wrote:
My name is not “Creationists.”
So you're saying that you no longer believe the universe was created by The Creator?

Nope.

On this thread, I’m saying that:

  1. My name is not “Creator”;

  2. Darwinism, a model or conjectured scenario, has never been replicated or verified in any way;

  3. Einstein’s theories have been verified, and E=mc2 is being replicated by operational CVNs, SSNs, SSBNs, and SSGNs as I type.

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:39 am

Polyglide

To state that there is no 'proof' of the evolutionary dynamic is like saying a Victoria sponge-cake does not evolve in the mixing bowl but is miraculous materialized by God himself. The hand of God makes cakes? I have heard of a Catholic nunnery outside Rome that claims to make little cakes (since the middle ages) in the shape of Mother Mary's tits (I kid you not); being called 'seni della madonna' - the breasts of the Madonna!

No way, Polyglide, the evidence and dynamics of evolution are monumentally apparent, real and irrefutable. Yes, have creationist views if you care to but please do not tell scientists they have got it wrong: you are not a scientist and neither am I!

Point: Genetic science tells us that we possess the same DNA structure, inherent within our own genetic helix, that belonged to the very first worm-like creature that climbed out of the primordial swamp, so to speak; from which we have evolved. Genetic science can provide such proof of evolution. I believe that proof - I have discerned it to be reliable.

If your genetic structure was analysed, Polyglide, you would, like all of us, be amazed at where our ancestors hailed from.

We evolve from something. Evolution is an absolute, not an opinion, God or no god! King Canute thought he could hold back the sea but ended up with wet feet - a triumph of evolution as crowning an end point to his legs with the function of keeping him upright. Just a pity he wasn't using them to retreat while he was ahead!


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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:31 am

AwfulTruth wrote:
To state that there is no 'proof' of the evolutionary dynamic is like saying a Victoria sponge-cake does not evolve in the mixing bowl but is miraculous materialized by God himself.

Since Darwinism remains unproven, your comparison is moot. Darwinism is merely a model, a conjectured scenario, which is not replicable and has never been verified.

AwfulTruth wrote:
… the evidence and dynamics of evolution are monumentally apparent, real and irrefutable.

No it is not. To the contrary, “evidence” of macro-evolution is in fact not evidence of macro-evolution, and the dynamics of evolution have been verified only in micro-evolution.

We know that dogs have evolved into dogs more suitable to human tastes, an example of observed micro-evolution, but dogs evolving into dogs is not amoeba evolving into dogs.

AwfulTruth wrote:
… please do not tell scientists they have got it wrong:

Why not? Einstein did. In fact, in an indirect fashion, Einstein told Sir Isaac Newton that he had it wrong, that gravity isn’t a pull, it’s a push.

AwfulTruth wrote:
Genetic science can provide such proof of evolution.

No it cannot. Correlational data neither evidences nor proves causative relationships.

AwfulTruth wrote:
I believe that proof - I have discerned it to be reliable.

Your belief regarding DNA data does not cause it to be reliable.

AwfulTruth wrote:
If your genetic structure was analysed, Polyglide, you would, like all of us, be amazed at where our ancestors hailed from.

We evolve from something.

Not necessarily. The only living entities from which I know that I am descended are my known human ancestors; thus the only “something” from which I know I could have evolve, if indeed I have evolved, are my known human ancestors, from one of which, if anything, I have devolved. In either case, any evolution or devolution has been micro-evolution/devolution, human to human.

AwfulTruth wrote:
Evolution is an absolute, not an opinion…

No it is not.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Papaumau on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:04 am

polyglide wrote:There will never be proof of evolution because it is not a viable alternative to creation, science has been trying to prove evolution for 100,000 years and is no nearer aswering my quesion regarding the life cycle of a butterfly and a little wren, other than saying they evolved in stages, just give me the stages from the pool of volcanic liquid to the actual beings and without any supposition just plain facts stage by stage and I will consider the result with good grace but I am afraid I would be waitiong forever because it makes no sense whatsoever.

We may also add the acorn and the oak tree.



Polyglide.....

There is actually tons of empirical truth backing up the "theory" of evolution if the denier wants to look for it.

That is why I cleave to science and not to fairy-tales in seriously-flawed books written by seriously-flawed men.

At least science searches every second of every minute of every day for answers to the problems associated with evolution but the religions make no headway at all as they are happy to accept that what they "know" has to be true because their holy books say so, and for no other reason.

Maybe it might be a good thing if the people of blind faith were brave enough to try to examine their faith by looking at the tons of science that is out there so than at least then they would be fully informed.

They might start by looking HERE and afterwards wonder how the brilliant Charles Darwin knew about how nature works even before DNA had been discovered.

Regards....

Papaumau.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:16 pm

Rock

I am duly dumbfounded by, sorry, your formalized yet scatological approach to arguing against my view; that creationism is hogwash laced with mythology, delusion (not you personally!), misinformation, and blind faith in the literal meaning of biblical didactics that preclude any rational or logical conclusion. That the bible was written by ignorant story tellers is a view I take which explains why the bible is such wondrous work of imaginative fiction. That is all it is.

I would no more consult the bible for historical accuracy than consult a 1922 edition of the railway timetable for tomorrows train times.

I have not seen God today so I cannot get his current viewpoint on this issue. Exclamation

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Shirina on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:07 pm

Nope.

Then you're a Creationist. It's really that simple. Belief in a Creator = Creationist.

And Creationists are very fond of using the False Dilemma fallacy as I've previously indicated.

It is an effective argument against those unaware of the fallacy. It is why evolution is always required to throw down their proof while Creationists can simply hide behind "faith" when asked to throw down theirs. In every discussion and debate over evolution vs. creation that I've ever seen, Creationists offer up nothing to prove the existence of a creator while they simultaneously demand that non-scientists and laymen write massive dissertations on genetics, molecular biology, and the like. I have repeatedly warned evolutionists not to fall for this trap, to not allow themselves to be put on the defensive, but they are so eager to prove their points that they almost invariably fail to heed my advice.

Religion is simple. It is designed for the uneducated - even the illiterate - to easily understand. Science is difficult and requires years of education and specialized knowledge. Based on that reality alone, creationists have always held the upper hand in these discussions. Genesis 1:1, a single line in the Bible in order to understand creationism versus entire libraries of books that must be read to understand evolution. This is a weakness of the evolution position, a weakness that creationists exploit with predictable regularity. Yet it is also a flaw built into the creationist position, as well, for more often than not the only material on evolution that a creationist has read comes from a creationist source.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:04 pm

Shirina wrote:

Nope.
Then you're a Creationist.

My name I not “a Creationist”, either. Hopefully, we’ve no need to touch again upon what my name is not.

Back to Darwinism, my chosen topic. That which Darwinism falsely claims as proven has not been proven. Darwinism is a conjectured scenario, a model, touted as proven fact when in fact it is not.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:30 am

Good posts!

Creationism is a direct manifestation of the compulsion of man to dominate, control and indoctrinate the masses as a form of big brother control. The underlying ethos, I would expound here, is that the underbelly of all religions is the compulsive dynamic of power politics.

The idea is that an omnipotent God, and omnipotent minor gods as in the Catholic church, can spy on us and is a profoundly ancient assertion and was devised to condition people into believing the fallacy that God can see and hear everything including every single human being's thoughts and actions.

This is not an inch away from the complicit idea that great kings had a similar power via their police, spies and informers: both concepts of control are designed to do the very same function and often ran alongside each other (the Queen is DoF?). To strike real fear within the followers/subjects and so elicit a compliant flock, via didactic discipline and intellectual capitulation (even if that means feigning belief or respect). Playing the game to please the power bases - religious or not - is an imperative not lost on those who know or suspect that they are being fed baloney.

Creationism is a man-made concept and is also a manifestation of the supreme arrogance of mankind. The idea that the world was created for 'his' benefit, so that God's chosen people could inherit the earth and live alongside the stupid animal also-rans, is an idea of monumental arrogance and egocentric mumbo jumbo. It bears no burden of proof, either, which abrogates the responsibility of anyone to provide proof of concept - even if it be God him/herself showing up just to clarify their existence and confirming the reality of the situation.

In the past proof of evolution was explained away as the devil's work (another artificial construct designed to control people), or as a wilful misinterpretation promulgated by wicked heretics or worse.

Creationism is the pure and most ancient form of mind control. A thought fxck that lays the foundation for the mythological ideology that presents a god that sees, hears and knows everything, a god of almighty power; a god of wrath; a god of miracles; a god of revenge and ultimately, a god of diverse punishment.

This creationist trope is not just wrong, it is also a dangerous psychological form of enslavement designed to elicit awe. wonder and above all, compliance through a visceral fear of hell and damnation. If you refused to comply, then the devil was inside you, etc.

Creationism equals power. Creation represents power. Creationism is the religious bedrock that represents the disempowering of the masses, and therefore the blunt subjugation of human thinking so to halt any heretical questioning of this primaeval assertion, and fulfil the quest for a human imperative for supreme monotheistic-based supremacy.

Creationism is the primal mechanism that galvanises the religious machinery of control.

It is not a case of 'deus ex machina'; God is actually NOT in the machine. It is mankind who is the machinery of control.



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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Ivan on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:17 am

Awful Truth. That's one of the best postings I've ever read on a forum.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:33 am

Thanks Ivan - many thanks! Very Happy

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:45 pm

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:27 pm


Yes AwfulTruth I will go with Ivan on this one !

That was a very readable, accurate and to-the-point view.

The thing is that the people of faith will not only not listen to those wise words, they will dismiss them out of hand as they are already enslaved in the unsupported and unsupportable teachings of their holy books. In their desire to have and to hold both forgiveness for their "sins" and somewhere for their souls to go after death they will blindly fight for their unproven theisms.

Even as an atheist I would also fight and die for their right to hold those mistaken views.

Regards.....

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:46 pm


No defense of the indefensible Darwinism seems imminent, so perhaps it’s time to move on.

The probability of all variables required for human existence to occur by chance is 1010123 to 1 (from a reliable source); in other words, the probability of human existence occurring by chance is so statistically unlikely that it approaches a statistical impossibility.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Shirina on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:09 pm

No defense of the indefensible Darwinism seems imminent, so perhaps it’s time to move on.
It's not "indefensible" Rock. It's just that no one here is truly qualified to defend it ... except for Snowyflake. And, to be totally honest, even if a qualified scientist actually came onto this board and DID defend it, I doubt very much you'd understand it. Not because you're dumb, but because you don't have the background. There once was a scientist on the old MSN boards who went by the name Brentosaurus; he would get into evolution discussions and write posts that were far more technical than I was capable of understanding. Oddly enough, none of the Creationists ever had any kind of refutation.
the probability of human existence occurring by chance
But I do know enough to know that it wasn't "by chance." There are all sorts of variables: abundance of food on the planet, the absence of higher predators such as T-Rex, the gravity of the planet, the amount of water, tidal forces, on and on, that factored into humans evolving here.

The other problem with your probability is the assumption that human beings are the only possible sentient outcome. If one of those variables was different or absent altogether, we very well could be a different species yet still sentient. Even assuming your probability is correct, it doesn't mean anything if there are 1010123 possible permutations for intelligent life. At that point, it becomes a mathematical certainty that some form of sentient life will develop. If the dinosaurs, for instance, developed sentience, then they would be here instead - probably claiming that the probability of dinosaurs evolving by chance is 1010123.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:22 pm

Thanks you guys!

ROCK WROTE:

"The probability of all variables required for human existence to occur by chance is 1010123 to 1 (from a reliable source); in other words, the probability of human existence occurring by chance is so statistically unlikely that it approaches a statistical impossibility."

Actually, now we know that the cosmos is much, much bigger, with billions of galaxies stretching into infinity, we can say that your calculation is wrong.

The likelihood of life is absolute, and that there will always be somewhere where life has progressed to the equivalent level of, say, a whale, elephant or even a monkey culture like us lot. :cherry:

Truth is that life will take all forms and maybe on one planet there is a strange vegetable with a degree, or a messy pile of slime with the IQ of Einstein. Who knows!


It's cool to be pragmatic about probability.

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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:01 pm

Rock On Brother wrote:
No defense of the indefensible Darwinism seems imminent, so perhaps it’s time to move on.
Shirina wrote:
It's not "indefensible" Rock.

If it’s not “indefensible”, please defend it. In the entire time in which I’ve been aware of Darwinism, a time period encompassing my initial belief in Darwinism and my subsequent doubt as to the logicality of Darwinism (“logicity” ought to be a word), I’ve never seen or heard a defense of Darwinism that doesn’t depend upon presentation of multiple speculative scenarios.

Shirina wrote:
It's just that no one here is truly qualified to defend it…

There have certainly been people eminently qualified to defend it in various “venues” in which I’ve found myself from time to time. So far, no defenses save those which rely on speculative scenarios.

Shirina wrote:
And, to be totally honest, even if a qualified scientist actually came onto this board and DID defend it, I doubt very much you'd understand it.

I don’t. If I can understand that which I’ve studied and mastered so far, understanding Darwinism would be as difficult as a walk in the park. In fact, I do understand Darwinism, which I why I understand that Darwinism is indefensible.

Shirina wrote:
… because you don't have the background.

I’ve sufficient background; I’ve sufficient inherent capacity. Conversely, Darwinism has insufficient logicality (dang it, “logicity” ought to be made into a word).

RockOnBrother wrote:
… the probability of human existence occurring by chance…
Shirina wrote:
But I do know enough to know that it wasn't "by chance."

And you know this in spite of the fact that “by chance” approaches a statistical impossibility?

Shirina wrote:
There are all sorts of variables: abundance of food on the planet, the absence of higher predators such as T-Rex, the gravity of the planet, the amount of water, tidal forces, on and on, that factored into humans evolving here.

The probability calculation takes variables into account.

Shirina wrote:
The other problem with your probability

It’s not “[my] probability.” I did not calculate it; I have reported it.

Shirina wrote:
… is the assumption that human beings are the only possible sentient outcome.

There is no such assumption; 1010123 to 1 is the probability of human existence occurring by chance.

Shirina wrote:
Even assuming your probability…

Once again, not “[my] probability.”

Shirina wrote:
… is correct, it doesn't mean anything if there are 1010123 possible permutations for intelligent life.

Yes it does; it means that the probability of human existence occurring by chance approaches a statistical impossibility.

Shirina wrote:
At that point, it becomes a mathematical certainty that some form of sentient life will develop.

No it doesn’t; at odds of 1010123 to 1, it approaches statistical impossibility.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:17 pm

AwfulTruth wrote:
ROCK WROTE:

"The probability of all variables required for human existence to occur by chance is 1010123 to 1 (from a reliable source); in other words, the probability of human existence occurring by chance is so statistically unlikely that it approaches a statistical impossibility."

… your calculation…

It’s not “[my] calculation.”

AwfulTruth wrote:
Actually, now we know that the cosmos is much, much bigger, with billions of galaxies stretching into infinity, we can say that [the quoted] calculation is wrong.

No, we do not know that “[the quoted] calculation is wrong.” In fact, I know that the quoted calculation is as accurate as is humanly possible.

AwfulTruth wrote:
The likelihood of life is absolute…

The probability of human existence occurring by chance approaches a statistical impossibility.

AwfulTruth wrote:
… and that there will always be somewhere where life has progressed to the equivalent level of, say, a whale, elephant or even a monkey culture like us lot.

Absolute terms such as “always” tend to be challengeable in certain scientific circles.
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Re: Are atheists and left-wingers more intelligent?

Post by AwfulTruth on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:21 pm

Unless you are omnipotent I cannot see where you pull in any gravitas for your presumption that intelligent life is not possible elsewhere. The dogma is screaming out, sorry.

Of course it will not be human life - it will be some other manifestation of universal DNA. Let us think laterally, out of the human test tube...

Have you seen the film 'Alien'? Wink

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