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Council prayers are ruled unlawful

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Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by witchfinder on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Town Council in the English town of Bideford has had its prayers ruled unlawful by the high court in London, the prayers which were said or given at the start of each council meeting upset one councillor who is an athiest, councillor Clive Bone objected on the grounds that prayers had no place in a council meeting.

The councillor took his dispute to the National Secular Society (NSS) who took the case to the high court, it is been seen as a test case which could affect council meetings and local government all accross the country.

Personaly I see this as a victory for common sense, and as councillor Bone himself said, I believe strongly in the principal of freedom of religion, but I also agree in the principal of freedom FROM religion, and religion does not have a place in civil or civic life.

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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by Shirina on Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:35 pm

Shirina......I always find it confusing that religious people find the naked body that their own God gave them offensive.....Isn't that an insult to God?
Organized religion is 80% about sex - who to have it with, when to have it, what sexual positions you are allowed to use, how often, for what purpose, blah blah, blather blather. Most holy books contain thousands of pages of text, but the religious tend to zero right in on any passage dealing with sex, and that becomes central to the faith. Never mind all that "tripe" about loving thy neighbor since that might include SEX! Oh noez!


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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:10 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Although I am a Christian I agree. There are many people in the world who have values that exceed those of some Christians/religious people. Sad

Then belief is not a prerequisite to a moral, decent, ethical, productive and happy life. If people can be so without God then God is essentially unnecessary. In fact, belief and religion may be a hindrance to a productive and happy life.


Not so. People vary. It is obvious that to some a faith is a vital aspect of their life. To others it is of no consequence. Neither side has the moral high ground. We all are different. An old US gospel singer used to sing 'it's what you do, not what you say, that's gonna count on judgement day'. Putting aside the 'judgement day', whatever motivates a man to 'good works' is right for that man, and consequently for those he helps.

If belief and religion may be a hindrance to a productive and happy life, then so are many other things in life quite unrelated to religion. It is all a matter of balance.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by astra on Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:28 pm

Trevor,

When in Scotland over 30 years ago, a farm worker who took one of the American 'cults' too much to heart, was giving all his spare cash to the 'church' to his families detriment.

They got to him coz when he needed an electrician, plumber or builder, one would come from the 'church' and do the work 'payment in kind' (I have NO idea, rev. Hornby, WHAT the guy did for the congregation who asked his services!)

Thing is, the cottage was TIED ACCOMODATION. A dispute was deliberately set up by the land owner, who saw all this work on HIS cottage and had the grieve sack the farm worker. No job, no house, so the family were jobless, penniless and homeless in one stroke. When the Church of J.C. and Latter Day Saints found this unfortunate fellow was of no further use, he was as good as blackballed by the 'congregation' and the family left to their own devices!
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by astradt1 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:45 pm

Anyone find it strange how the government has very quickly worked out how to get the rules/law changed in this instance, but find it very hard to change other laws which could help the general population and what the population want???
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by ROB on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:03 am

Shirina wrote:
Organized religion is 80% about sex…
RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Does any religion matter at all today? by RockOnBrother on Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 16:26

Summary of the teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph, Sermon on the Mount, Matthew Chapters 5-7:

Of the twenty-one (21) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 5:

  • Nineteen (19), 90.48%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 9.52%, involve sex.

Of the eleven (11) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 6:

  • Eleven (11), 100.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Zero (0), 0.00%, involve sex.

Of the eight (8 teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapter 7:

  • Eight (8, 100.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Zero (0), 0.00%, involve sex.

Of the forty (40) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapters 5-7, the Sermon on the Mount in its entirety:

  • Thirty-eight (38), 95.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 5.00%, involve sex.



Summary of the teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Jesus son of Joseph, Matthew Chapters 1-7:

Of the five (5) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapters 1-3:

  • Five (5), 100.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Zero (0), 0.00%, involve sex.

Of the forty (40) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapters 5-7, the Sermon on the Mount in its entirety:

  • Thirty-eight (38), 95.00%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 5.00%, involve sex.

Of the forty-five (45) teachings of Jesus recorded in Matthew Chapters 1-7:

  • Forty-three (38), 95.56%, do not involve sex.

  • Two (2), 4.44%, involve sex.

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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by Shirina on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:43 am

Hello, Rock:

I think you're missing the point, though I am partially to blame for not making it more clear.

I said organized religion is 80% sex. I didn't say the Bible was 80% sex. In fact, I pointed out how there are thousands of pages of text yet organized religion (and its adherents) often zero in on any verse that contains sexual rules and regulations. They're obsessed with it - thanks to St. Augustine who decided to push his prudishness onto everyone else.

It wouldn't matter if the Bible contained only 3 verses about sex, those 3 would become central to the faith. Now ... maybe within a church (which I do not attend), the "love thy neighbor" part is taught and practiced, but outside of it, I just see a lot of second-hand judging in the name of God.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by astradt1 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:51 am

Roc

I notice you only cite only one 'apostile' from the New Testement not the whole bible....I do not see modern christian religion as being based soley on the new testement, otherwise we would not mention the 10 commandments.......

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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by Papaumau on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:48 pm


I don't know about"sex" being an important part of religious life but I do see a serious connection with religion and procreation. It is a well known fact that the Roman Catholic church in particular right across the world and in some of the poorest communities in the world encourage their faithful to procreate so that they bring up large families that will be automatically added to the swell of membership to that church. It does not appear that the inclusion of abject poverty in such large families is an important part of the ministries that they bring to these poor folks.

This brings me right back to the "indoctrination" suggestion that I made before as this form of automatic teaching is then endemic to these families who in turn go on to have large families "in the faith" as well.

As has been said by many people in and out of religion before: These churches take money from these poor families via the collection-plate and while the families stay poor the church goes on and on into great riches and have their churches and their bishops and cardinals decked in golden icons and raiments. One of the largest land-owners in the world is the Roman Catholic church and yet we do not see any of this land being used to build quality but affordable homes for their parishioners.

Regards.....

Papaumau.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:27 pm

All human life results from a sexual act.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:03 pm

astra wrote:Trevor,

When in Scotland over 30 years ago, a farm worker who took one of the American 'cults' too much to heart, was giving all his spare cash to the 'church' to his families detriment.

They got to him coz when he needed an electrician, plumber or builder, one would come from the 'church' and do the work 'payment in kind' (I have NO idea, rev. Hornby, WHAT the guy did for the congregation who asked his services!)

Thing is, the cottage was TIED ACCOMODATION. A dispute was deliberately set up by the land owner, who saw all this work on HIS cottage and had the grieve sack the farm worker. No job, no house, so the family were jobless, penniless and homeless in one stroke. When the Church of J.C. and Latter Day Saints found this unfortunate fellow was of no further use, he was as good as blackballed by the 'congregation' and the family left to their own devices!

I know little about the Mormons so can only say that is seems a very cruel thing to do, both by the landlord, and the Mormons. The Mormons are not considered as part of the christian church. However, the Christian church has not been guiltless over the centuries. Sad
Religion of any kind that relies on 'force' to spread its beliefs is not worth its salt. The old Spanish Inquisition had a great many converts. In truth people followed in mind and not in heart, and in fear of the consequences if they didn't.
This is the one thing that the Taliban can't understand. At some time in the future people will rebel against indoctrination, even as the Church is finding out now. After all, there is a line at which everyone has a sticking point on a particular subject. And religion happens to be one of those things.
Nevertheless if you're not in church next Sunday you'll be excommunicated - from cuttingedge2 - ooops Smile
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:52 pm

Papaumau wrote:
I don't know about"sex" being an important part of religious life but I do see a serious connection with religion and procreation. It is a well known fact that the Roman Catholic church in particular right across the world and in some of the poorest communities in the world encourage their faithful to procreate so that they bring up large families that will be automatically added to the swell of membership to that church. It does not appear that the inclusion of abject poverty in such large families is an important part of the ministries that they bring to these poor folks.

This brings me right back to the "indoctrination" suggestion that I made before as this form of automatic teaching is then endemic to these families who in turn go on to have large families "in the faith" as well.

As has been said by many people in and out of religion before: These churches take money from these poor families via the collection-plate and while the families stay poor the church goes on and on into great riches and have their churches and their bishops and cardinals decked in golden icons and raiments. One of the largest land-owners in the world is the Roman Catholic church and yet we do not see any of this land being used to build quality but affordable homes for their parishioners.

Regards.....

Papaumau.

I accept your comments about the church and great riches. This, however, pertains to the RC church only, excluding the Mormons.

The idea that the C.of E. is extremely rich is a fallacy. Those days are long past. In the 18/19th century it was one of the largest landowners in the UK. Now its land ownership is fairly small in comparison with other organisations - about 180,000 acres according to figures a few years ago.
It has finances that seem large at first glance. However, taken in the context that the church supports a worldwide organisation, in comparison with a multinational company its assets and finances are not exceptionally large. If anyone is interested their accounts are published every year and make thrilling and exciting reading - if you are interested in figures. If not they make excellent paper for - er - lighting the fire.

Whilst I don't deny that the RC church discourage contraception, large families are common from early times. Mainly because of the need to have prodigy to help in the family, the mortality rate and to defend familly and tribe/nation. A status symbol was a large family of SONS. (sorry ladies).
Contraception is known as far back as the 1800's BC
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by ROB on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:24 pm

Shirina wrote:
I said organized religion is 80% sex. I didn't say the Bible was 80% sex.

Shirina,

Thank you for clearing that up. “Organized religion” is a term that tends to cover up the reality of the entity. Each an every entity to which the term “organized religion” can be affixed is composed of people, humans, women and men that differ in substantive composition in no significant way from you or me. In other words, they’re just people.

A bit off topic to illustrate: I was once in awe, subconsciously, of college/university professors. Then some became my peers, and the awe evaporated. They’re just people.

Back on topic: Nearly three decades ago, a man spoke, and my life changed. The man was “just a fellow human”, in pretty much his own words, and his message to me and others was two-fold, (1) the meanings of certain portions of Jesus’ teachings, exposited, not interpreted, derived by reading and understanding Jesus’ words in the language in which they were recorded by the four chroniclers, and (2) that I and others could access, exposit, and understand the same Greek words as are accessed and interpreted for us by theologians, church leaders, and even such venerated-by-other-people as the pope.

In other words, these persons that we tend to hold in awe are just people. The various priests, bishops, archbishops, pastors, fathers, cardinals, popes, patriarchs, and all other people of all other titles are… watch out, now… just people, just like you and me.

All of this is a lead-in to this: God’s Word is as accessible to you and I as it is to “organized religion”, i.e., other people who are just people. The man who changed my life set me free of all these people’ “takes” and “spins” on God’s Word. Jesus promised just that, as recorded by John:
__________________________________________________________________________________________

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32).
__________________________________________________________________________________________

I recommend freedom from the edicts of other people who, like you and me, are just people. This freedom frees me of the onus of people separating me from my Creator. The idiot who despoils funerals has no right to tell me what I must believe based upon his spin on God’s Word, and neither does the pope. The Bible is translated into English, and several excellent translations are available, including the two I most like, the 1611 King James Version and the late 20th Century New American Standard Bible. Although none of these are absolutely accurate translations, several reference sources are available from which people of intelligence such as you and I can easily exposit any questioned passage for ourselves from the original language.

Jesus said, “I come that you might have life, and have life more abundantly.” Had this promise not proven itself true, I would have no logical reason to believe Jesus. This promise has proven itself true, so it is entirely logical to believe Jesus.

Jesus, not organized religion, speaks to all aspects of life. Since almost all human life on earth is the result of sexual intercourse, if one such as Jesus speaks of life, one at some point in time must speak of sexual intercourse. Since I believe Jesus, I believe Jesus when he speaks of sexual intercourse. One key aspect connecting all of Jesus’ references to sexual intercourse is that they are unspoken and incidental to Jesus’ points.

For instance, Jesus teaches, through an apostle, “Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath; instead, raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” Where is the sex? For a father to have children, sex is involved. Notice, however, that sex is unspoken and incidental to the point, which is to reign in fathers’ tendencies to be dictatorial.

I’ll stop here because I need to get back to work.

Rock


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by blueturando on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:08 am

In other words, these persons that we tend to hold in awe are just people. The various priests, bishops, archbishops, pastors, fathers, cardinals, popes, patriarchs, and all other people o all other titles are… watch out, now… just people, just like you and me.

And the people who created the fantasy stories which make up the Bible were just people like you and me Rock

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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by ROB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:35 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
In other words, these persons that we tend to hold in awe are just people. The various priests, bishops, archbishops, pastors, fathers, cardinals, popes, patriarchs, and all other people of all other titles are… watch out, now… just people, just like you and me.
blueturando wrote:
And the  people who created the fantasy stories which make up the Bible were just people like you and me Rock

Nope.

If you want to talk about it, let me know.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:35 am

Ivan wrote:I listened to the 5pm news on Radio 4 (until it was time for the daily dose of royal sycophancy and a news bulletin from 1952) with some amusement. First we had Lansley telling us that things can't stay the same and so the NHS has to change, then we had that fat ugly pig Pickles telling us that prayers have been part of council meetings since about the time that Noah invited some more attractive pigs into his ark. Like the fascists that they are, the Tories have decided that if any judge interprets the law in a way that doesn't reflect Tory policy, the law will be speedily changed - by the end of the month apparently.

Another fat ugly Tory pig called Hailsham Hogg used to attack Labour governments for being "elected dictatorships". Now we have an unelected dictatorship, thanks to those useless, spineless cretins who call themselves Liberal Democrats.

Ivan
you know your summary is very fair one in my own view. As an ex-county cllr, I never was that bothered about praying before a council meeting. not that I had a feeling about this issue one way or an other. I was far to busy sorting out my paperwork and going over the Agenda to even notices the prayers. but would not wish to stop a Tory have a prayer or two before the meeting. As I always thought if anyone could help the Tory party it would be God. what I did find very interesting is how quick the Tory party got behind this issue. its my own view that right now they would start a debate about any subject as long as its not about there banal economy.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by Papaumau on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:28 pm


Yes trevorw2539.....

I think that you are right that the various subdivisions of the Protestant Christian church are now starting to shrink and may eventually fade away into obscurity. The faith in these numerous sub-divisions of the Protestant church is waning to such an extent that the congregations are now down to single-figures in some cases. The church-buildings that are attached to these weak sub-divisions are now being closed and sold off at a high rate all across the country and many are now being converted into flats or discos or even restaurants.

The people of Britain - in particular - are now so weak in their Christian faith that the rise and rise of Atheism and Secularism is a tide that will eventually see this section of Christianity reduced to the bare bones of what it once was.

It appears that it is now only the very strong religions that are able to resist this trend and that more and more of the weaker religions are now not willing to accept blind faith any more.

Regards.....

Papaumau.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by blueturando on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:06 pm

Rock...I am happy to discuss it with you but we both know the stories that make up the bible were mainly written between 60 and 95AD long after Jesus was said to have died. Other portions were added much, much later

So why wasn't it written sooner or as things happened?

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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:22 pm

blueturando wrote:Rock...I am happy to discuss it with you but we both know the stories that make up the bible were mainly written between 60 and 95AD long after Jesus was said to have died. Other portions were added much, much later

So why wasn't it written sooner or as things happened?

Please excuse me rudely butting in.

Do we know there weren't earlier writings, such as notes etc.

Plato wrote around 400BC. The earliest copy of his writings that has been found was around 900AD.
Sophocles wrote between 500-400 BC. Earliest copy found 1000AD.

There is a list of famous writers who fall into the above.

Christ was a wandering preacher who almost certainly didn't take a secretary with him. Upon his death many of the disciples were scattered.
There were no telephones, printers, shorthand typists, MP3 players. Even as today 'authors', 'celebrities' etc. tend to write their 'memoirs' towards the end of their lives, or when they settle down. Which would apply to Matthew and John. Luke and Mark are different. Luke took notes while travelling with Paul. The Gospel information he would have received from his contact with the disciples. His historical mistakes, are probably due to being a Greek. The Acts also from disciples, though much was first hand knowledge from his travels with Paul. Mark is, for me, a different proposition. I believe he was John Mark, the son of a couple living in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus. Thus he would have almost certainly have had contact with Jesus - either in the crowd, or more personal contact. He then travelled with Paul and Barnabas, and later helped Paul when he was in Rome.
Books such as Matthew are not compiled overnight but over a long period of time.

Sermon over.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:32 pm

"Opiate of the masses"

What does that mean?
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:37 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"Opiate of the masses"

What does that mean?

Getting high on communion wine?
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by astra on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 pm

The origins and first writings went up in smoke with the fire in the Great Library of Alexandria. Timings for this are bandied about, and any accuracy long since lost but stories and legends persist
http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm
Reading this piece, you see that the library was fated anyway so any figuring out has to be academic. (ouch) It seems whichever way you look at it the wisdom of the ancients was destined for ashes no matter who was looking after the place!

Then there is the council of Nicea in AD325
http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

Again too much to copy and paste - the authors don't appreciate that, much preferring the whole piece to be looked at

It seems to likkle old moi, that all that is in the bible has been engineered by man since the very start of time.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:52 pm

Put not thy Faith in soothsayers, for they publisheth only to make money.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 pm

astra wrote:The origins and first writings went up in smoke with the fire in the Great Library of Alexandria. Timings for this are bandied about, and any accuracy long since lost but stories and legends persist
http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm
Reading this piece, you see that the library was fated anyway so any figuring out has to be academic. (ouch) It seems whichever way you look at it the wisdom of the ancients was destined for ashes no matter who was looking after the place!

Then there is the council of Nicea in AD325
http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

Again too much to copy and paste - the authors don't appreciate that, much preferring the whole piece to be looked at

It seems to likkle old moi, that all that is in the bible has been engineered by man since the very start of time.

4 possible dates for the fire that partially or completely destroyed the Library. Plutarch puts it around 48BC by Caesar - to early. 3 other dates some centuries after the writing and discovery of Gospels. Around 270AD by Aurelion, 400 AD on the orders of the Pope of the time and around 620AD by the Moslems.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:01 pm

Astra. The writings of a few disciples were not of sufficient interest to the librarians of Alexandria to store them. They certainly had copies of the Tanakh - Jewish Canon - which are the writings of a major religion. Though where I got that fact from I can't remember. If I remember correctly they had copies of the Septuagint. Again because it was an important translation of the Hebrew Tanakh.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by ROB on Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:24 am


An example of atheism crammed down my throat.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

ACLJ Defending 2nd Grader After School Confiscated His Valentine’s Gifts Because of Message “Jesus Loves You”

At a Valentine’s Day “friendship party and chocolate celebration” [at James Madison Elementary School, Sheboygan, Wisconsin], [school] officials confiscated [Dexter Thielhelm] gifts… with… the message “Jesus Loves You” and… John 3:16.

The [American Center for Law and Justice] has issued a demand letter to the Sheboygan Area School District asking for assurances that the District will “cease its viewpoint-discriminatory treatment of religious speech.”

“It has been well settled by the Supreme Court that religious speech is protected by the First Amendment and may not be singled out for disparate treatment,” said David French, ACLJ Senior Counsel. “To censor Dexter’s speech because of its religious nature is pure and simple viewpoint discrimination.”

“It’s pretty simple really,” French said. “A student does not shed his constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate.”

http://greenmountainscribes.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/aclj-defending-2nd-grader-after-school-confiscated-his-valentines-gifts-because-of-message-jesus-loves-you/
__________________________________________________________________________________________

The Sheboygan School District has crammed atheism down my throat.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by Shirina on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:01 am

The Sheboygan School District has crammed atheism down my throat.
Do you actually attend or teach at a school in the Sheboygan School District?

By the way, schools are given a lot of leeway in terms of what is against the Constitution. If there is one place where "freedom of expression" is often discouraged, it is inside the walls of a school.
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Re: Council prayers are ruled unlawful

Post by ROB on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:23 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
The Sheboygan School District has crammed atheism down my throat.
 
Shirina wrote:
Do you actually attend or teach at a school in the Sheboygan School District?
 

Nope. In fact, prior to reading this article, I didn’t know Sheboygan existed.

Shirina wrote:
By the way, schools are given a lot of leeway in terms of what is against the Constitution.
 

No, they are not. Constitutionally-guaranteed human rights are guaranteed by the Constitution, not by school districts.

Shirina wrote:
If there is one place where "freedom of expression" is often discouraged, it is inside the walls of a school.
 

There must be a compelling reason to do so. For instance, a Jewish boy was not allowed to wear the Star of David around his neck or in any visibly way upon his person by a southern school district (I’ve forgotten which) a few years back.

Why? Because weaning the Star of David upon his person put his life in imminent danger. A Chicago gang that was making inroads into the area in which this school district is locate happens to be arch-rivals, as in “shoot on sight” another Chicago gang whose symbol is a six-pointed star identical to the Star of David.

The parents lost the lawsuit; the court ruled tha6 the school district had an absolute obligation to ensure the boy’s safety as best they could and as best they knew how.
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