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Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

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Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:07 pm

First topic message reminder :


This threadstarter was stimulated by one that was written by Ivan down below !

On a TV programme recently, ( sorry, cannot remember its title ), I got the shock of my life when I saw some things done by "clever" animals that I had never seen or even considered before:

There were many examples of animals like dolphins and whales and other creatures doing things that I have seen before, like using tools for example, but when I saw the presenter of the programme competing against a chimpanzee who was showing amazing memory actions and reactions with a game on a monitor screen, my mind was truly "blown-away".

I will explain:

On this screen were some random numbers set out in random spaces and then quickly covered by squares. The contestant was then supposed to remember the numbers and then touch the squares in the chronological order that the numbers were on the screen before they were covered by the squares.

OK...I hear you say, "that is easy is it not" ?

Well, the presenter that was competing with the chimp thought so too until they started to put more numbers on the screen and they started to give less and less time with which to memorise the numbers before they were covered by the squares.

At half a second of exposure of the numbers and with six numbers on the screen the chimp and the presenter were just about equal with their accuracy and speed of touching the screen in the right order but when more numbers were added to the screen and less time was given for the remembering of the numbers the chimp started to pull ahead.

By the time that there were about ten numbers on the screen and only one sixth of a second was given for memorisation of the numbers and their positions the chimp was way ahead of the presenter in the speed and accuracy of his screen-touches. After a while the presenter could not even get one right while the chimp was still getting all of them right in around eight seconds of total time.

It was made clear that this was not a test that the chimp was able to learn by repeated practice as each time the numbers were presented they were always at random.

The whole programme was fascinating and entertaining but that bit with the chimp beating the human for memory and speed of reaction was mind-blowing.

Did anyone else here see this programme as if you did I would like to talk about how animals can beat us so-called "clever" Homo-Sapiens in the many ways that require brain-power if not instinct.

Regards.....

Papaumau.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Suffice it to say that Humans share 98% of DNA with Gorillas.

What It Really Means To Be 99% Chimpanzee
Jonathan Marks
Department of Anthropology
University of California, Berkeley
Jmarks@sscl.berkeley.edu
Presented at the Annual Meeting of the American Anthropological Association
Biological Anthropology Today:
Topics For Non-Biological Anthropologists
(Presidential Symposium)

Interesting reading.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:29 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Suffice it to say that Humans share 98% of DNA with Gorillas.


Yes I saw that too Oftenwrong !

Mind you, in DNA a two percent difference is a very large difference if we want to see what separates us from the apes.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:43 pm

quote Oftenwrong

Suffice it to say that Humans share 98% of DNA with Gorillas.

..................................................
If you want to know how similar a human and chimp DNA sequence is, you simply add up the matches. But if you want to know how similar a human and chimp are, the obvious question is: Compared to what?

Compared to a starfish, let’s say , humans and chimpanzees match in having bilateral symmetry, a central nervous system, a skeleton – bone for bone, muscle for muscle, organ for organ, humans and chimps match right down the line. They’re not 98% physically identical, they are 100% identical, if your frame of reference is an echinoderm.

The body and DNA paradox thus isn’t a paradox at all. The pairwise DNA comparison is an empirical question; the pairwise body comparison is nonsense. In fact, it could be the silliest thing I ever hoid.

The second point I’d like to make is complementary to that. It’s about similarity.

We are accustomed to imagining scales of similarity ranging from 100% similar – that is to say, identical – to 0% similar, that is to say, totally different. This is the conceptual framework within which we interpret the 98.6% or whatever similarity of human and ape. They are really, really similar, almost identical.

But in fact, DNA similarity is not structured in quite that way. There are, as everyone knows, only 4 bases in DNA. And this places an odd statistical constraint on the comparison of sequences. No DNA similarity at all – that is to say, two random sequences that share no common ancestry – are still going to match at one out of four sites. In other words, the zero mark of a DNA comparison is not zero percent similar, but 25% similar.

Once again, the DNA comparison requires context to be meaningful. Granted that a human and ape are over 98% genetically identical, a human and any earthly DNA-based life form must be at least 25% identical. A human and a daffodil share common ancestry and their DNA is thus obliged to match more than 25% of the time. For the sake of argument let’s say 33%.

The point is that to say we are one-third daffodils because our DNA matches that of a daffodil 33% of the time, is not profound, it’s ridiculous. There is hardly any biological comparison you can make which will find us to be one-third daffodil, except perhaps the DNA.

In other words, just as Simpson argued in the 1960s, the genetic comparison is exceptional, not at all transcendent. DNA comparisons overestimate biological similarity at the low end and underestimate it at the high end – in context, humans are biologically less than 25% daffodils and more than 98% chimpanzees.

The focus on base-pair mismatch itself is misleading, for it encodes a number of archaic assumptions about genetics and evolution. In fact, it ignores what is quite possibly the most significant development in biology in the last quarter-century – namely, the complexity of genome structure.

If humans and chimpanzees are over 98% identical base-for-base, how do you make sense of the fact that chimpanzees have 10% more DNA than humans? That they have more alpha-hemoglobin genes and more Rh bloodgroup genes, and fewer Alu repeats, in their genome than humans? Or that the tips of their chromosomes contain DNA not present at the tips of human chromosomes?

Obviously there is a lot more to genomic evolution than just nucleotide substitution. But the percentage comparison renders that fact invisible, and thus obscures some of the most interesting evolutionary genetic questions.

Once you..............

Extract from 'what it really means to be 99% Chimpanzee

Jonathan Marks, university of California.
Interesting reading. I know it all nowEmbarassed

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:19 pm


Well Trevor, even after reading that a few times I still don't understand most of it ! Smile

That said I think that I get the point that you are trying to make !

I found it interesting, ( talking about the apes ), that it has been recently discovered that none of the apes can get HIV or go on to develop AIDS and maybe that is because, in that two-percent difference between us and the apes they have the ability to negate the AIDS virus.

Maybe we could do with being more ape-like as we try to evolve into Homo Superior eh ?

Oh...BTW... Yes, it is true that apes can get Simian Immunodeficiency Virus or ( SIV ), which can go on to look like AIDS, but it is now believed that the HIV disease that transforms into human AIDS was originally created by at least two species of monkey and that it bypassed the apes and came direct to us as HIV.

See THIS and THIS

Regards.....

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by polyglide on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:27 pm

Of course we share DNA with other creatures, we were all created at the same time using the same method and no doubt the same materials, there is nothing strange about that, indeed, it would be stranger if that was not the case.

I know, I know, the million dollar quesion again.


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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:36 pm

Quote Papaumau.

Well Trevor, even after reading that a few times I still don't understand most of it ! Smile

I found it interesting, though I agree it was difficult. I did find out one thing however. If I'm 33% daffodil that explains why my feet itch to get in the garden in the spring. Smile
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:34 pm

polyglide wrote:Of course we share DNA with other creatures, we were all created at the same time using the same method and no doubt the same materials, there is nothing strange about that, indeed, it would be stranger if that was not the case.

I know, I know, the million dollar quesion again.


"WE were all created at the same time" were we ?

Sorry mate but that is creationism once again is it not ?

As evolution has it, life came out of the primordial soup as amino-acids hit by lighting strikes and from there all life started to branch. The branches of that particular tree would be impossible to show here as there are now squillions of them with each one being slightly different in DNA from all of the others.

While it is true that as we get closer to the apes our DNA starts to look decidedly similar, but it is different enough in that two-percent to ensure that we are in fact different species.

I know that it might be a horrific idea if it could be made to work, :affraid:, but we are so different that we cannot procreate with each-other. Even animals like tigers and lions - which are also different species - can successfully procreate and produce Ligers or Tigons but we cannot make man-apes or ape-men. ( or women, come to that ). Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by moonbeam on Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:55 pm

Papaumau wrote:Even animals like tigers and lions - which are also different species - can successfully procreate and produce Ligers or Tigons but we cannot make man-apes or ape-men. ( or women, come to that ). Evil or Very Mad

Regards.....

Papaumau.
I have seen ligers and they are beautiful, if a bit odd-looking. Somewhere, in some one of a million photo albums, I'm sure I have pictures. But no need for me to go looking when you have the wide world of google, right?! Very Happy


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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:30 pm


Now you have triggered my obsession with Google again !

Just click HERE and you will find a page full of them.

I have yet to find a picture of an ape-man or a man-ape other than Tarzan ! Twisted Evil

Regards....

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by moonbeam on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:42 pm

What I recall seeing looked most like this. Very short mane and faint stripes. There is a facility in the southern part of my state that does big cat rescues, and that's where I saw them. It doesn't appear that they have them anymore, though. They've changed names and owners. Used to be called Big Cats of Serenity Springs.


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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by polyglide on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:56 pm

That is the whole basis for creation,like will only breed like if left to nature, that is the way all life was made . so matters would not become confused and unable to function in a proper manner, just imagine if you could cross
any animal with any other animal or plant with any other plant.

The robots presently in existance just show that man is starting to use the 90% of his brain that is dormant.

When man can maake a robot that can be a female and a male that can reproduce their like without any help then that would be something to shout about.


I am afraid there are numerous possibilities to untilize all that the earth has to offer, many far beyond our present understanding, however, Iam also afraid we will not have the time to take advantage of same.

The next age will be the nuclear age and in my opinion the last one, we overstepped the mark in splitting the atom, every present sign points to man not only wiping out all life but also contaminating the earth.

There is no doubt that there has been disasters in the past from which the earth has recovered but the present state is an entirely different proposition, man has, unfortunately, not taken the last chance to recognise the creator and we will suffer accordingly, by ignoring his advice on how to conduct our lives we have ended up in no mans land regarding a future.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:29 pm


Polyglide said:

That is the whole basis for creation,like will only breed like if left to nature, that is the way all life was made . so matters would not become confused and unable to function in a proper manner, just imagine if you could cross
any animal with any other animal or plant with any other plant.

Actually, if we look a bit closer we find that many animals and plants that are part of a sub-species can in fact produce hybrid offspring. ( sometimes this is done by the cross-pollination that the bees do or by the experimentation that randy animals do if left to their own devices ), Sadly many of these hybrids both in animals and plants are not fertile in themselves and each time that a hybrid is needed the cross has to be done with the first-level sub-species each time.

I am thinking about mules being created out of donkey/horse crosses and how many fruit-trees and other plants can be crossed by us - using a number of different techniques - in order to make hybrids.

I would have thought that if the line that any creator created was meant to stay pure he/she or it would not have allowed us to muck about with such hybrids.

As time goes by and we get smarter and smarter we find that our scientists are starting to not only make living parts for humans, ( by the use of the manipulation of stem-cells ), but I would not be one bit surprised that - as you suggest - if it is at all possible to make a robot sentient we WILL find out how to do it and then do it.

At that point we will have become the creators and all of the other imaginary Gods will be made redundant !

Regards....

Papaumau.


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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:51 pm

Quote Papaumau.

As time goes by and we get smarter and smarter we find that our scientists are starting to not only make living parts for humans, ( by the use of the manipulation of stem-cells ), but I would not be one bit surprised that - as you suggest - if it is at all possible to make a robot sentient we WILL find out how to do it and then do it.

But can we keep it just sentient, that is aware, sensing, or will man attempt to 'evolve' the robot into a living, thinking being. Then the 'god' man might find himself back where he is now - only knowing that there is a 'god' now superior to himself. And not just a figment of his own imagination.

I guess you know the old 'joke about the super new computer, which when asked it's first question 'Is there a God' replied 'There is now'.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:14 am

trevorw2539 wrote:Quote Papaumau.

As time goes by and we get smarter and smarter we find that our scientists are starting to not only make living parts for humans, ( by the use of the manipulation of stem-cells ), but I would not be one bit surprised that - as you suggest - if it is at all possible to make a robot sentient we WILL find out how to do it and then do it.

But can we keep it just sentient, that is aware, sensing, or will man attempt to 'evolve' the robot into a living, thinking being. Then the 'god' man might find himself back where he is now - only knowing that there is a 'god' now superior to himself. And not just a figment of his own imagination.

I guess you know the old 'joke about the super new computer, which when asked it's first question 'Is there a God' replied 'There is now'.


I guess that that depends on your recognisation of the full meaning of the word "sentient".

When I use that word I mean that this "sentient" being would not only be able to "sense" it's surroundings but it would be "alive" and self-aware in the great scheme of things.

Where we would need to be very careful would be if this "sentient" robot was able to build copies of it'self ( If not make copies like we do ), then very soon we would be overrun by them and they might choose to just get rid of us as inferior to themselves. ( Actually, that idea has already been suggested in many books by the great Asimov and many other science fiction writers ).

I suppose that if we are ever able to create life where there was none before we WOULD then be on a par with the Gods.

Being an evolutionist I do not think that all life was started by any great creator in the sky. No, I think that the creator was Mother Nature and as she made the rules it seems that she made us able to manipulate life in just about any way that we want to.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:17 pm

Papaumau Quote

( Actually, that idea has already been suggested in many books by the great Asimov and many other science fiction writers ).

Yes. read his books. Love science fiction. Always being told I live with my head in the clouds:)
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:53 pm



Yes me too Trevor ! In fact I read science fiction and enjoy it so much because so many of the ideas that were once first seen in sci-fi books are now actually coming to fruition.

I have always believed that there is much more basic truth in sci-fi than there will ever be in science fantasy, fairytales or religious or ghost stories.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:31 pm

Papaumau wrote:

Yes me too Trevor ! In fact I read science fiction and enjoy it so much because so many of the ideas that were once first seen in sci-fi books are now actually coming to fruition.

I have always believed that there is much more basic truth in sci-fi than there will ever be in science fantasy, fairytales or religious or ghost stories.

Regards.....

Papaumau.

H.G Wells. First men on the moon. 60+ years later there we are. Just waiting for the Time Machine to appear.

Asimov, Arthur Clarke etc. great. Looked at cryonics with the idea of coming back in 2000 years to see what has happened. But can't stand the cold:lol!:
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by polyglide on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:43 am

The whole point is that when matters are left alone and not used as experiments by man then like just breed their like.

Any hybrid is usually infertile and trees have only been grafted and hybratized by man and would just revert to normal if left alone..
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:16 pm


Trevor w said:

H.G Wells. First men on the moon. 60+ years later there we are. Just waiting for the Time Machine to appear.

Asimov, Arthur Clarke etc. great. Looked at cryonics with the idea of coming back in 2000 years to see what has happened. But can't stand the cold:lol!:

Yes mate that is so true. I too am waiting for time travel and something else..."Antigravity" as if we can discover that then flying would be made so much easier.

"Cryonics"...or the freezing of human tissue so that it can be brought back to life many years in the future might be the answer to getting to the stars. The thing is, that even if we could make such long journeys to the stars the space-time problem would mean that the time would just pass normally back home and people would be born, live and die in large numbers before the travellers could get anywhere, never mind come back to tell us about it.

Then Polyglide said:

The whole point is that when matters are left alone and not used as experiments by man then like just breed their like.

Any hybrid is usually infertile and trees have only been grafted and hybratized by man and would just revert to normal if left alone..

And while that is true to an extent I think that that does not effect what happens with evolution or with natural selection as, given time, nature will always find the best way to create new life so as to be able to handle the environment within which it exists.

Again I believe that this has nothing whatsoever to do with the directing hand of some ethereal entity in the sky. I think it is all about nature doing what it needs to do to survive.

All that aside I do think that we WILL continue to experiment with life and we WILL continue to do things that some might see as Godlike, just because we can.

Regards....

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by polyglide on Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:54 pm

The nearer man gets to discovering the truth without accepting that there are beings better than himself, with powers we could not understand the nearer he comes to self destruction.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by tlttf on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:07 pm

Sorry poly, I've been reading the conversations with great interest upto now, however I don't believ there is a race of being superior to us, nor a benevolent creator and as such I don't see how or why self destruction comes into it.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:34 pm

by tlttf Today at 5:07 pm



Sorry poly, I've been reading the conversations with great interest upto now, however I don't believ there is a race of being superior to us, nor a benevolent creator and as such I don't see how or why self destruction comes into

You obviously haven't seen 'a Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy'.Smile
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by astra on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:40 pm

Them Cybermen!!! Twisted Evil


Er Em!

Whoopsee! Embarassed


Them wiz Dr Who! Mad
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:59 pm

Zaphod Beeblebrox entertains Dr Who at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

Menu. xyfttywodbas steaks with veg. follow by deep frozen ropepppssw ice cream on meringue.

Nurse. I'm off on one. Where's my tablets.confused Smile
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:06 am


tlttf wrote:Sorry poly, I've been reading the conversations with great interest upto now, however I don't believ there is a race of being superior to us, nor a benevolent creator and as such I don't see how or why self destruction comes into it.

Hi there Tlttf.....( That's hard to pronounce ). Laughing

I think that we can "believe" anything we want to believe but the mathematical chances of there being life superior to ours somewhere in the universe is virtually a certainty. Whether these super-races will ever break the distance problem off travelling in space so that they can come here and enslave us or not is another great question that we will not have the answer to until they arrive and start to treat us like we treat the apes.

You talk of a "benevolent creator", but I have - over many years of self-examination - come to the conclusion that if there is any such super-entity living in the sky then that super-entity is in NO WAY "benevolent" if we see what goes on in his/her/it's name right around the world.

Your last point is one that I have also thought about myself and I am afraid that I have come to the conclusion there that as we get cleverer and cleverer and do not develop the wisdom that should go with such brain-power we ARE at great risk of destroying ourselves with our own ability of creating WMDs of many kinds.

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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by polyglide on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:15 pm

To just cover two points, one regarding the future of mankind.

Take a long look at the present situation in the world today and then see if you can see any real long term future if the Middle East and the Muslim problems are not solved.

I believe there is both a benevalant creator and also another being that is just the opposite, I could and have often cried at some of the events that have occured on earth but many are self inflicted by man and others I feel brought about by conflicts between things we do not understand.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by astra on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:11 pm

Back to the subject! :


I am surprised EVERY day by him on the left. He will make situations happen, and the ultimate end game is a reward, to which he is 100% successful! I accidentally cut too deep when clipping his claws an YES there was pain (No use some septs saying only humans feel pain)

It seems to me that some people deny that animals have feelings/intelligence to excuse their own dastardly existance!

Edit -

We KNOW how unintelligent humans are! (or perport to be)

Try telling someone out there that their dog is a sentient intelligent mammal just like wot they is. I wager you get an indignant instinctive "he's not" or "I'm not" before the penny drops. It is really easy to shake some people out of their tree!
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:33 pm

papaumau Quote

I think that we can "believe" anything we want to believe but the mathematical chances of there being life superior to ours somewhere in the universe is virtually a certainty. Whether these super-races will ever break the distance problem off travelling in space so that they can come here and enslave us or not is another great question that we will not have the answer to until they arrive and start to treat us like we treat the apes.


Absolutely. The only problem I have when discussing this is simple. WHO are they? WHAT are they? WHERE are they?

We are limited by our knowledge/lack of knowledge of science.

I'm always amused by the climax of Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy. The mice are in charge.

Now that is just a story, but it should remind us that we are beings who have developed to cope with Earths position and circumstances.

We always assume that every life form must be carbon based because that's all we know.

Without bringing religion into it, how do we know there aren't 'spirits', apart from the bottled ones. How do we know that there aren't creatures that are controlling us. Or who have set us on a path and left us to find our own way. (2001 - A Space Odyssey - 3 great films) What lifeforms might we find out there, and would we recognise them if we could even see them?

We really are arrogant if we think we are the only, and greatest, creatures in the Universe.

WhatI am trying to say, not very well, is that we do not know!

But then, what do I know.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:49 pm


polyglide wrote:To just cover two points, one regarding the future of mankind.

Take a long look at the present situation in the world today and then see if you can see any real long term future if the Middle East and the Muslim problems are not solved.

I believe there is both a benevalant creator and also another being that is just the opposite, I could and have often cried at some of the events that have occured on earth but many are self inflicted by man and others I feel brought about by conflicts between things we do not understand.

The never-ending problems in the middle-East are caused by religion, giving them - as they see it - no other choice but to wage war on the West until that holy war, ( or Intifada ), is complete. It will never be complete as the religions that hold the three antagonists at each-other's throats of Christianity, Islam and Judaism are too set in their dogma to even try to live with each-other.

As far as there being a Devil as the antithesis of God is concerned, I have always felt that that idea is something that allows bad things to happen and which discourages the faithful from blaming their Gods for the bad things in life. In other words...Where you have an entity of great good you also have to have an entity of great bad so that a balance is maintained and so that there is a direction for the faithful to go when things go wrong.

Regards....

Papaumau.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by True Blue on Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:16 am

astra wrote:It seems to me that some people deny that animals have feelings/intelligence to excuse their own dastardly existance!

It is a stupid thing to claim that animals lack emotion. Emotional content is not a higher order function of the brain.
Equally it would be stupid to assume that animals lack intelligence given that survival for any species in a variable environment requires some form of intelligence.

However, it would be the height of stupidity to assume that animals had a comparable emotional and intellectual existence to that of humans.

Language represents the great divide between humans and other animals. Note that language is not the same thing as communicating emotional content through grunts and tweets and so forth.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:12 am

The really intelligent animals have learnt to stay well away from Man.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by polyglide on Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:35 pm

I believe all animals have both feelings and intelligence but both limited to their needs to survive.

I have stitched an injured animals injury and the animal has shown no sign of feeling pain whilst doing so, at the same time a dog will yelp if hit, it will also learn what to do to get a treat and will show often undeserved love
and affection.

There is no doubt that animals are intelligent to a degree and that their pain threshhold is vastly different to ours and we should feel very privelliged that we have the opportunity to enjoy their company.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:24 pm



I think that what we are talking about here is DEGREE !

I believe that all living things that have nervous systems can feel pain and that that "degree" of pain felt is decided by the way that their brains are connected to their extremities.

An example was given above where a dog did not complain when it was being stitched but it might if being hit and I feel that that example is easily explained and comes under the same circumstances as also happens with humans when being stitched. On many occasions any such injury is already anaesthetised by the endorphins flowing around the wound and under such conditions, pain - of any severity - will not be felt.

All living creatures have intelligence of some sort built in but I am sure that as they/we climb the ladder to sentience they/we show different levels of this quality.

Emotions are something that are much harder to evaluate and measure as often these conditions cannot be felt by anyone other than the person or animal that is experiencing them at the time.

Many animals seem to show love but I have often wondered if these actions are just a manifestation of the pack rules that the ones in the pack that are below the alpha male or female have to show deference to the top-echelons. Fear is different, I think, as while this emotion is easy to see in the higher animals, it is not easy to detect in the lower ones. I think that we are simply guessing as to what our pets are feeling as they simply cannot tell us by any direct means.

Regards....

Papaumau.
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:54 pm

Quote Papaumau.

All living creatures have intelligence of some sort built in but I am sure that as they/we climb the ladder to sentience they/we show different levels of this quality.


I agree. Therefore I would say that many animals have a language, though not as we know it. Mammals like whales 'converse' over great distances. They use clicks -codas - of different types for different 'words'. Some other animals have similar methods. Because they don't have a larnyx like ours doesn't mean they don't 'talk' to each other. I also exclude the groans etc.

Oftenwrong is oftenright,

The really intelligent animals have learnt to stay well away from Man.

And my friend from the Alpha Centauri Galaxy agrees.cheers

Er. perhaps that's why I don't get many visitors.Wink
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by astra on Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:31 pm

in 2010, I had 2 GSDs - and BOTH were very intrested in a location in my chest, 1 inch to the right of the tip of my sternum. I thought they were playing! NO! They were pointing DIRECTLY to the spot that has me in my present predicament. These guys KNEW something was wrong and as confimed by the Surgeon the spot they marked was a Direct Hit for my Bowel Cancer. Few GPs can claim "Delta Hotel" in their carreer and some dogs are noted at finding these things.
I find this creepy.
Intelligence, or Natural Ability, or inbuilt trait?
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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

Post by Papaumau on Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:46 pm


I think that a very good sense of smell - especially in dogs - explains most of that Astra.

I also believe that most animals have - or have been given by evolution - improved senses so that they can do what they have to do to survive in this dog-eat-dog existence. ( Sorry Cool ). Many of these senses are much better individually than our equivalent senses are.

Regards....

Papaumau.


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Re: Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

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