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Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

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Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:32 am

should we send the radical cleric Abu Qatada back to the Jordanian's or should we carry on paying to keep him under virtual house arrest? or is the European human rights judges right that he could face systemic use of torture. or do you just believe like me, that you would just wish to have him removed from the UK a country he hates? [i]
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:50 am


Stox,

Would this fellow seek to destroy the UK from Jordan? I've great respect for Islam; consequently, my disgust for Islamafascist adulterers of the Qur'an runs deep, and if this fellow is such an adulterer, your justice system needs to act in the interests of UK security.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:38 am

Possibly we are again looking at an example of distraction politics.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Shirina on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:15 pm

Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK? I think Abu Qatada's words go beyond a disgruntled citizen shaking his fist at the government because of taxes, don't you think?
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:32 pm

Things were so much simpler in 1170 when Henry II was able to say, "Who will rid us of this turbulent Priest?"

.......... and get a RESULT!
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:09 pm

Shirina wrote:Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK? I think Abu Qatada's words go beyond a disgruntled citizen shaking his fist at the government because of taxes, don't you think?

Unfortunately the European Court ruled he could not be sent back in case he was tortured. And we are, at the present, bound by their ruling. Problem is, it's not their country that could be under threat. It's ours!
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by astra on Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:21 pm

Shirina wrote:Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK? I think Abu Qatada's words go beyond a disgruntled citizen shaking his fist at the government because of taxes, don't you think?


Because Prime Minister Blair wattered down the Treason Act in 1998, so that the Lisbon Treaty could be signed (there is a bit in the Lisbon Treaty about Habeas Corpus) the laws of the land are more or less left to europe! What on earth the British politicos think they are doing in Westminster now - apart from wasting time and fressh air I do not know!
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by astradt1 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:30 pm

Treason Act in 1998

Surely the Treason Act could only be brought against those from the country involved...

This 'cleric' is Jordainian....

If he came in to the country under forged passport we must have grounds to send back to the last port of exit before he landed on British soil...........

Or could we send him to Hague on the grounds he is calling for/ordering 'Crimes against Humanity' to be commited........Is't that how they got Milosevic et.al.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:44 pm

Technically, all of the Earth's inhabitants are entitled to a United Nations passport if they cannot obtain any other.

Clearly we should be encouraging the gentleman concerned to get a UN passport so that we could expel him to Geneva or New York.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Ivan on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:02 pm

Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK?
Shirina. Yes. But he's never been charged with anything in the UK, and the authorities are reluctant to put him on trial, arguing that the evidence which would have to be produced could compromise members of the security services and even put them in danger.

The UK government wants to deport Qatada to Jordan - his native country - but it's alleged that the evidence held against him there was obtained under torture. He's also wanted on terrorism charges in Algeria, the USA, Belgium, Spain, France, Germany and Italy.

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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by ROB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:25 pm

Ivan wrote:
The UK government wants to deport Qatada to Jordan - his native country - but it's alleged that the evidence held against him there was obtained under torture.

Shouldn’t matter. Deport him as an undesirable, and let him sleep in the bed he’s made in his native country.

“You shall reap what you sow.”
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:07 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Stox,

Would this fellow seek to destroy the UK from Jordan? I've great respect for Islam; consequently, my disgust for Islamafascist adulterers of the Qur'an runs deep, and if this fellow is such an adulterer, your justice system needs to act in the interests of UK security.

Rock
I think this guy is a pain in the butt. he distorts the Qur'an and calls for holy war against the West. I.E. the UK and US mostly. its high time he was called to court to face up to his attacks that are based on hate. Rock there are very few people I dislike but this guy is one of them. He was born in Jordan yet fights not too be sent home to face up to his attack on his own government. its just crazy Rock
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 am

Shirina wrote:Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK? I think Abu Qatada's words go beyond a disgruntled citizen shaking his fist at the government because of taxes, don't you think?

yes I believe this is the case Shirina. this guy hates the West. its time he was packed off home. right now it got very messy within court battles within the UK and EU. its become quite crazy in my view
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:16 am

Ivan wrote:
Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK?
Shirina. Yes. But he's never been charged with anything in the UK, and the authorities are reluctant to put him on trial, arguing that the evidence which would have to be produced could compromise members of the security services and even put them in danger.

The UK government wants to deport Qatada to Jordan - his native country - but it's alleged that the evidence held against him there was obtained under torture. He's also wanted on terrorism charges in Algeria, the USA, Belgium, Spain, France, Germany and Italy.


Ivan
The whole thing is just uttly crazy with this guy. its called taking the pee. There are very few people I dislike. but his hate is just a bit too much even for me Ivan.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by witchfinder on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:17 pm

If you have principles you have to stand by those principles no matter what, no if s, no but s and no exceptions.

If you are against torture, then you are against torture, if this man is sent to Jordan without asking any questions, then we have compramised our principles, because allthough we do not want him here, we do not condone torture.

We do not like extremists, we do not want residents who are traitors or promote terrorism, and we do not support states that use torture, this is a difficult situation; We also need to remember that we are supposed to lead by setting principles, by setting an example.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:41 am

witchfinder wrote:If you have principles you have to stand by those principles no matter what, no if s, no but s and no exceptions.

If you are against torture, then you are against torture, if this man is sent to Jordan without asking any questions, then we have compramised our principles, because allthough we do not want him here, we do not condone torture.

We do not like extremists, we do not want residents who are traitors or promote terrorism, and we do not support states that use torture, this is a difficult situation; We also need to remember that we are supposed to lead by setting principles, by setting an example.

witchy
I do not disagree with most of what you are saying....but how can we keep someone who believes its quite right to promote acts of terrorism within the UK? I am not sure I could look a mother in the eye after there was a terror attack and found this man had been promoting it? the main issue for me is he should not even be here in the first place.. what would you do with him?
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:44 am

Ivan wrote:
Isn't inciting the people against the government illegal in the UK?
Shirina. Yes. But he's never been charged with anything in the UK, and the authorities are reluctant to put him on trial, arguing that the evidence which would have to be produced could compromise members of the security services and even put them in danger.

The UK government wants to deport Qatada to Jordan - his native country - but it's alleged that the evidence held against him there was obtained under torture. He's also wanted on terrorism charges in Algeria, the USA, Belgium, Spain, France, Germany and Italy.


ivan
agreed...but what would you do with him?
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:47 am

astradt1 wrote:Treason Act in 1998

Surely the Treason Act could only be brought against those from the country involved...

This 'cleric' is Jordainian....

If he came in to the country under forged passport we must have grounds to send back to the last port of exit before he landed on British soil...........

Or could we send him to Hague on the grounds he is calling for/ordering 'Crimes against Humanity' to be commited........Is't that how they got Milosevic et.al.

astradt
this is my view and could not agree more with it......If he came in to the country under forged passport we must have grounds to send back to the last port of exit before he landed on British soil...........
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by ROB on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:10 am


This adulterer of the Qur'an is Jordanian, so you government should stop sitting on their hands and send him back home to Jordan.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Shirina on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:18 am

We also need to remember that we are supposed to lead by setting principles, by setting an example.
We would also do well in establishing principles that are realistic and viable. Remember one of the greatest pieces of advice anyone can give: Never make a promise you can't keep.

America has not heeded this advice, for it tried to paint itself as a nation so virtuous and righteous that it could never obtain or maintain those principles and still thrive and survive in the modern world. Thus America, especially given its position on the world stage, has often let itself down. The higher the pedestal, the greater the fall.

Britain, too, needs to consider whether it wishes to be the destination for terrorists looking to seek asylum from their own criminal acts. Perhaps Britain should consider whether harboring terrorists is in keeping with its principles, as well, and if the two principles conflict, which one is greater?

Allow me to quote former Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. When a nation is at war, many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight, and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right."

I believe Qatada presents a "clear and present danger" to the citizens of Great Britain, and lest we forget, Great Britain IS at war ... at war with the very same people Qatada is championing! I find the fact that Jordan practices torture to be wholly irrelevant. The principles for Britain only apply to Britain, not Jordan, and since Britain is not the nation carrying out torture, those principles have been upheld. Otherwise, Britain will merely become a dumping ground for expatriated terrorists fleeing justice, and with idle hands, these terrorists will ultimately turn on their hosts safe in the knowledge that "principles" will prevent their ever being expelled.

Someone once said after 9/11 that "the US Constitution is not a suicide pact." This meant that we cannot hold such a slavish devotion to the Constitution that it becomes the instrument of our own destruction. If a set of principles cannot be upheld without causing immediate or long term risk to the nation, then those principles were never realistic to begin with and need to be re-evaluated. I believe Qatada to be nothing more than a ticking bomb - perhaps literally - and Britain harbors such a man at her own risk. I would then have to ask, when that bomb goes off, who protected the dead, the survivors, and their families from their own hellish tortures? It certainly will not have been the British government, who thought keeping a known terrorist from being tortured was more important than preventing the death, maiming, and emotional evisceration of its own citizens.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:39 am

Apparently it requires the full agreement of 46 other countries if Britain wants to change the way the European Court of Human Rights exerts its authority on the British judiciary.

How likely is that?
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:30 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
This adulterer of the Qur'an is Jordanian, so you government should stop sitting on their hands and send him back home to Jordan.

Hi Rock
I could not agree more with you. I have no real problem with this at all...his is Jordanian born and that is where he should be right now..as there should be no place in the UK for people who support acts of terror on people who live and work in the UK. i have no issues of morality over this guy at all. There are so few people I dislike in the UK. but this guy sits very high on my list Rock...
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:34 am

Shirina wrote:
We also need to remember that we are supposed to lead by setting principles, by setting an example.
We would also do well in establishing principles that are realistic and viable. Remember one of the greatest pieces of advice anyone can give: Never make a promise you can't keep.

America has not heeded this advice, for it tried to paint itself as a nation so virtuous and righteous that it could never obtain or maintain those principles and still thrive and survive in the modern world. Thus America, especially given its position on the world stage, has often let itself down. The higher the pedestal, the greater the fall.

Britain, too, needs to consider whether it wishes to be the destination for terrorists looking to seek asylum from their own criminal acts. Perhaps Britain should consider whether harboring terrorists is in keeping with its principles, as well, and if the two principles conflict, which one is greater?

Allow me to quote former Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. When a nation is at war, many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight, and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right."

I believe Qatada presents a "clear and present danger" to the citizens of Great Britain, and lest we forget, Great Britain IS at war ... at war with the very same people Qatada is championing! I find the fact that Jordan practices torture to be wholly irrelevant. The principles for Britain only apply to Britain, not Jordan, and since Britain is not the nation carrying out torture, those principles have been upheld. Otherwise, Britain will merely become a dumping ground for expatriated terrorists fleeing justice, and with idle hands, these terrorists will ultimately turn on their hosts safe in the knowledge that "principles" will prevent their ever being expelled.

Someone once said after 9/11 that "the US Constitution is not a suicide pact." This meant that we cannot hold such a slavish devotion to the Constitution that it becomes the instrument of our own destruction. If a set of principles cannot be upheld without causing immediate or long term risk to the nation, then those principles were never realistic to begin with and need to be re-evaluated. I believe Qatada to be nothing more than a ticking bomb - perhaps literally - and Britain harbors such a man at her own risk. I would then have to ask, when that bomb goes off, who protected the dead, the survivors, and their families from their own hellish tortures? It certainly will not have been the British government, who thought keeping a known terrorist from being tortured was more important than preventing the death, maiming, and emotional evisceration of its own citizens.

I agree with every word of that Shirina.
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Re: Should Abu Qatada be sent to Jordan?

Post by Ivan on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:28 pm

"Abu Qatada was deported to Jordan on 7 July 2013, after the UK and Jordanian governments agreed and ratified a treaty satisfying the need for clarification that evidence gained through torture would not be used against him in his forthcoming trial.

On 26 June 2014, Abu Qatada was found not guilty by a Jordan court of terrorism charges relating to an alleged 1998 plot. He will remain in prison pending a verdict due in September 2014 on a second alleged plot
."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Qatada

As Qatada has been sent to Jordan, the question has been answered and so this thread is now locked.
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