Welcome to Cutting Edge. Guests can see and read the contents of most of the boards on this forum but need to become members to read all of them. Currently membership is instant, but new accounts may be deleted if not activated within fourteen days.

If you decide to join the forum, please open your welcome message for further details. New members are requested to introduce themselves on the appropriate thread on our welcome board.

Members may post messages and start threads, but it is essential that they read our posting rules and advice before doing so. If you have any immediate questions or queries, please post them on the suggestions board.

After posting at least ten messages, members are able to contact each other and the staff through our personal messaging system.

This forum is administrated by Ivan and moonbeam and moderated by boatlady and astradt1.

Thank you for visiting Cutting Edge.

Is secularism under threat today?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Is secularism under threat today?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:51 am

Is Secularism under threat today? as there is no doubt that secularism is increasingly seen by some as a threat to Liberity. as Conservative party chairman Lady Warsi is the latest to raise the so-called alarm. speaking of her fear that Militant secularisation is taking hold of our societies. she pulled no punches in claiming that 'at its core and in its instincts it is deeply intolerant'' and that it ''demonstrates similer traits to totalitarian regimes'' what do you think?
avatar
Stox 16

Posts : 1064
Join date : 2011-12-18
Age : 58
Location : Suffolk in the UK

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:19 am


Stox,

I cannot speak to the deep divide between Conservative and Labour that I've seen on this forum, so I'll leave that alone. A study of English history (I'm not as familiar with Scottish or Welsh history) reveals a consistent thread of a concept U believe is accurately encapsulated by the phrase "government under God", describing a government not under religion, and that excludes all religions, but rather government under the Creator of all men, as in "all men a re created", the first portion of the oft-quoted "all men are created equal", the common Creator under whose mandate governments purposed to ensure inalienable human rights unto all men are instituted. from this concept flows rights assumed by UK, Australian, Canadian, New Zealander, and US citizens, such as freedom of thought, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of the press, freedom of peaceable assembly, and more.

Those who inadvertently nibble away at this concept of government under God nibble away at the foundation upon which their inalienable right to nibble is established.

If you don’t mind causing your head to hurt, read this from the late 17th Century:

The Second Treatise of Civil Government, John Locke, 1690
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:43 am

What on earth is Religious Secularism? Is it similar to Dry Water?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11906
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by Shirina on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:43 pm

A study of English history (I'm not as familiar with Scottish or Welsh history) reveals a consistent thread of a concept U believe is accurately encapsulated by the phrase "government under God", describing a government not under religion, and that excludes all religions, but rather government under the Creator of all men
Without religion, God is just an amorphous concept - the belief that some generic higher power somewhere might have created the universe. But that's not really what "Under God" means, and we all know that. God, in the American sense at least, is referring to the Christian God with all of the religious baggage that brings.
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:18 pm


B’r’shythe bara Elohim

The first three words of the Hebrew Bible tell (1) “when” and “where” (“b’r’shythe”), the beginning of space/time, (2) “what” (“bara”), created (in context, everything from nothing), and (3) “who” (“Elohim”), immeasurable, inconceivable power.

By popular convention, Elohim is rendered “God” in English.

According to the first three words of the first verse of the first chapter of the first book of the Hebrew Bible, God pre-exists everything; thus, (a) God pre-exists religion/religions, singular or plural, take your pick, and (b) God pre-exists humans.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:08 am; edited 3 times in total
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by blueturando on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:22 am

God pre-exists humans

Do dinasaurs pre-exist humans? and if so, why? Can you explain Gods plan there?

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by ROB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:52 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
God pre-exists humans
 
blueturando wrote:
Do dinasaurs pre-exist humans?
 

Insofar as I know, yes.

blueturando wrote:
if so, why?
 

Because they were here and gone before we were here.

blueturando wrote:
Can you explain Gods plan there?
 

Which part?
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:06 am

We are probably lucky to live in a Society capable of accomodating both views. There are no obvious penalties for losing one's Belief, unlike the situation in other Countries.

" Apostasy (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda‎) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation." The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11906
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:51 pm

Can you explain Gods plan there? Just a thought from a simple man.

Eleven years ago I moved into my council flat. It has a fairly large garden that had not been touched by the previous occupant for years.
I spent some time planning what I wanted and how to accomplish that.
I spent 12 months preparing the basic layout.
After that I started by planting young seedlings and plants to give me a start. Some would flower the first year only, others over a period of years. Down the years the garden has been evolving. Some plants were not successful and were removed and replaced by other plants. Some were killed by exceptional weather conditions, or by natural predators. Some were attacked underground and died. Others were too successful and had to be checked before they overwhelmed other plants.
For some plants I have put in guides - trellis etc. to help them. If they don't follow the guides then we have a problem and they will clash with other plants.
One day the garden will be completed, though I doubt I will finish it.

That's a very simple way I look at creation and the Creator. I have never believed in a 'seven day creation'. Seven periods/ages.

We, as rational? human beings have been given guides to try to help us along the way. To some it's religion - to some it's conscience - others I leave to you.

To me it's the Christian way. Others Islam, and so on. Humanists I assume it's conscience?

I know my thoughts throw up many questions, many of which I don't have the answer to. So, with respect to all you intelligent people out there, I am not prepared to get into contentious discussion.
Take it or leave it Rolling Eyes


avatar
trevorw2539

Posts : 1369
Join date : 2011-11-03

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by ROB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:22 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
That's a very simple way I look at creation and the Creator. I have never believed in a 'seven day creation'. Seven periods/ages.
 

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day (Genesis 1:5).

day, Hebrew yôm, "yome", a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), age, always, chronicles, continually, continuance, daily, each, forever, everlasting, evermore, perpetually, presently, season, space, then, process of time, when, whole age.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:27 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
trevorw2539 wrote:
That's a very simple way I look at creation and the Creator. I have never believed in a 'seven day creation'. Seven periods/ages.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day (Genesis 1:5).

day, Hebrew yôm, "yome", a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), age, always, chronicles, continually, continuance, daily, each, forever, everlasting, evermore, perpetually, presently, season, space, then, process of time, when, whole age.

Are you saying it could be either?

Have you noticed that the Bible is very Hebraic. It counts a day as 'the evening and the morning'. Whereas a day to us is morning and evening.
avatar
trevorw2539

Posts : 1369
Join date : 2011-11-03

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:31 pm

How others deal with it ....................

From,

Mr.Venkatakrishnan.K.

Mob : 09892699145

E-Mail: venkat_krishnank@rediffmail.com.

Date: - 20th JUNE 2005.

Subject :- Anti-Hindu Secularism Is THE MOTHER Of Hindu Communalism !!
==================================================


Dear FORUMHUBBERS,

Please read this Article in an HONEST AND UNBIASED manner and let me know your learned views. I am entitled to this, as a democratic citizen of this Nation- which would have been the BEST NATION had it not been for our CRUEL & CUNNING Politicians! My friends, know me for my “WACKY “ sense of humor , so please bear with my style of Key-board Manship . Oh ! how I wish I could “WACK” our Politicians – JIN KE WAJEH SE, YEH DESH JAHNNUM SE BHI KARAB JAGAH BAN GAYI !!
Once again it is election time in the “Nation bleeding “ state i.e Bihar. We Mumbaikars say “U.P. Mein sabi hai PAAPI aur Bihar mein sabi hai BEKAAR”. Once again, in Bihar, a “Competition” to prove who is more “Secular” has begun in a FULL FLEDGED manner. The major task in this respect is to “WOO” Muslims.

The most beautiful Girl in the world, Ms. Aishwarya Rai, (only a “MENTAL CASE” will call Ms. Angelina Jolie as “Beautiful”, let alone MOST beautiful girl in the world) comes from my College & we guys were always DAMN GOOD at “WOOing girls”.

But “WOOing” Muslims is a BIT CONFUSING, NOT all Muslims are girls, although many Muslim girls (including my 2 Muslim Sisters from Pakistan - Ms. Fiza Zaki & Ms. Siham Quereshi ) will easily win all the beauty pageants, had these contests been conducted in a decent manner. We,Kafirs (especially ones like, Ms.MALLIKA SHERAWAT )are extremely LUCKY,because we can "GET AWAY" with indecency.!

Mr. Ram Vilas Paswan, it appears has taken the Cream, by PINING for a Muslim Chief Minister. He has even started dressing and looking like a Muslim – with Muslim cap etc. May be he will CONVERT TO ISLAM and become the Chief Minister himself ! Politicians (though some are "X" rated) are "XTRA" Smart people !!

Paswan’s formula is DALIT-MUSLIM Vote Bank.

Lallu & Mullu (Mulayalam) Yadavs are working on OBC-MUSLIM vote bank. Congress Party is working on UPPER CASTE-MUSLIM vote bank. The Commies (CPI & CPM)too are not far behind in either Appeasing Muslims &/or Abusing Hindus. The “secular” state of Andhra Pradesh has given 5% reservations to Muslims in all Government Institutions. This means nearly 40 % of the Muslims will have reservations (Muslims constitute 14% of our population, use your sense of Maths, Matey!) The Hindutva types, will be doing their best to feed on the FEAR caused to the Hindus by all these “Appease Muslims” Parties .

Election campaign in Bihar makes one realize that “APPEASEMENT OF ISLAM”, “ CASTE-BASED VOTE BANKS” AND “APOSTASY AGAINST HINDUISM” constitute the Three Pillars of the “Tripod”, of “Secular” politics in India.

Congress Party practices secularism out of a FEAR OF ISLAM (a bit like “Stockholm Syndrome”) whereas Non-Congress “Secular” Parties try to MANIPULATE Muslims to get a booty called “Muslim vote Bank”. This serves Muslims (especially their Clergy) Very well.

I bet a person who can “Appease Muslims” and Abuse Hindus, the Most, will easily be crowned the “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS OF INDIAN SECULARISM”. As of today I feel a certain, Mr. Lal Krishna Advani (who resembles the charecter "COMMON MAN" in R.K Laxman's cartoons), is pretty close to WINING this
CROWN (Clown?).This is a tremendous “Feat” by him, considering the fact that he was the architect of Babri Masjid demolition and the Founder of Hindu Fanaticism-Hindutva. We cannot seperate "SIN" from "SINdhi", can we ?

As the caption of this article indicates, this type of SECULARISM IS THE “MOTHER” OF HINDU COMMUNALISM or “HINDUTVA”.

Hinduism preaches tolerance and righteousness. Hinduism also does not lay any emphasis on LOYALTY TO THE RELIGION, nor does Hinduism pander to a concept of Religion based “Self-Interest” or practice "Religious Imperialism". Muslims have committed genocide against Hindus, in the medieval past. They betrayed Hindus by Partitioning India, when India got freedom. If there had been anybody else in the place of Hindus (eg. Jews, Christians,Commies etc..), I guess, Islam would not have been allowed to exist in India after Partition. That would have been a big blow to us Indians (especially Film lovers like the chap who stares at me in the mirror). Imagine India without SRK & A.R.Rehman!

No religion has committed as many crimes against another, AS THE MUSLIMS HAVE COMMITTED AGAINST HINDUS, no religion has been so Generous and Merciful to another religion, as the HINDUS HAVE BEEN TO MUSLIMS!!

Yet Hindu fanaticism or “HINDUTVA” happened and caused this Nation and its people a great deal of tragedies. The reason is, the above-mentioned “SECULARISM”, is a HUGE threat to Hinduism’s existence. So Hinduism, the otherwise tolerant religion , will once again fall prey to religious Fanaticism, if Anti Hindu “Secularism” is practiced any further. Thus nullifying all our efforts to defeat communalism and run this country in a sensible way.

True secularism is the one practiced by Developed Nations, like USA, where Religion and Non-religion are kept SEPARATE from each other. Certain PRAGMATIC nations like CHINA, control and manage religions in such a way that it does not cause harm to the Nation’s goals or people’s welfare.

India must follow a WISE "MIXTURE” OF BOTH, i.e separate religion from Non-religion and at the same time CONTROL Religious activities so that they are not harmful to people’s welfare, thus maintaining the sanctity of religion and at the same time making Non-religious entities as Efficient and Effective as possible. This is what I call “GENUINE SECULARISM” or “PRAGMATISM”.

Devoid of Genuine secularism, India will cease to exist as a civilized Nation and become a CURSE on humanity.

Religion and Non-religion, like Limewater and Milk, must be kept separate from each other. MIXING THEM TOGETHER WILL SPOIL BOTH

We must do everything we can to complete the “incomplete” work of “Bodhisattva” Dr.AMBEDKARSAHEB, by finishing off Caste System once and for all. The sooner we eradicate Caste-System, the sooner will India become a “Developed Nation”, as envisioned by our great and beloved President, Dr. A.P.J. Kalam.

Hey Guys (&Gals), after you give me your “learned” VIEWS on this Article, I’ll send the same to our President Dr. A.P.J. Kalam. He is a wonderful confluence of Science, Spirituality, Secularism & Statesmanship and a “Guru” to all of us Indians. ! So give me your feedback ASAP!

Hence, my dear friends I earnestly appeal to all of you, to do everything you can to stop these CRUEL & CUNNING minded politicians, who are “APPEASERS” of Islam and “ABUSERS” of Hinduism and go under the Nomenclature “SECULARISTS”. Is the election commission SLEEPING? Is there a Law against these “Secularists”. If so, then we must make use of this LAW to STOP them, else once again the dreadful MONSTER “Hindutva” will resurrect and cause unbearable pain, in a VICIOUS-CYCLICAL manner, to the common people of this TRAGIC Nation Called INDIA, for generations to come !!

HAI!! MERE WATAN KE LOGON, AB AUR KYA ZULM, HUM SAB KO, IN “SECULARISTS” KE WAJEH SE SABAR KARNA HOGA, KHUDA BHI NA JAANE !

Please, DO RESPOND ASAP!!

HINDU-MUSLIM BHAI BHAI !

SARE HEHAN SE ACHCHA HINDOOSTAN HAMARA HAMARA .... !

Yours Sincerely,

Venkatakrishnan.K.


http://www.forumhub.com/indsports/6540.13.50.04.html
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11906
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:33 pm

Oftenwrong.

About time someone said it like it is. I would disagree with you on 2 points - IF I could understand what you were saying. Embarassed
avatar
trevorw2539

Posts : 1369
Join date : 2011-11-03

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:26 pm

Don't shoot the messenger!!
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11906
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by ROB on Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:45 am

trevorw2539 wrote:
That's a very simple way I look at creation and the Creator. I have never believed in a 'seven day creation'. Seven periods/ages.
 
RockOnBrother wrote:
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day (Genesis 1:5).

day, Hebrew yôm, "yome", a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), age, always, chronicles, continually, continuance, daily, each, forever, everlasting, evermore, perpetually, presently, season, space, then, process of time, when, whole age.
 
trevorw2539 wrote:
Are you saying it could be either?
 

Yes, I am, and in so doing, I am saying what the word itself is saying.

trevorw2539 wrote:
Have you noticed that the Bible is very Hebraic. It counts a day as 'the evening and the morning'.  Whereas a day to us is morning and evening.
 

Yes I have.

One friend “hit me up” about six or seven months ago with this epiphany: Noticing again that “Hebraic” depiction of day, he points out that the whole tenor of Genesis Chapter One is a progression from disorder to order; thus, poetically, from nighttime, or “evening” (darkness, chaos) to daytime, “morning” (light, order), bringing in the portion in which God’s Spirit hovers “over” the raw creation.

Brings to mind Robert Nesta Marley’s poem/song, a portion of which refers to this progression.

Could You Be Loved, Robert Nesta Marley, performed by Bob Marley and the Wailers

A Jewish friend, a Reform Jew, while not keeping strictly “kosher” on Shabbat, does not engage in certain activities from about 6:00 PM Friday to about 6:00 PM Saturday local time, “close enough”, he says (he’s Reform) to Shabbat. I like his protocol, and I enjoy conversing with him during Shabbat.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is secularism under threat today?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum