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Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

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Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

During one of her latest campaign stops in New Hampshire, Bachmann told the audience, in response to a question about healthcare that to protect the best heatlhcare system it had to remain a free market system, and that if you can't afford the best than you will have to rely on charity.........

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/bachmann-tells-man-no-teeth-rely-charity

It could be inferred that she is suggesting that only those who can afford the best should get the best......

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:00 pm

astra wrote:
Rock!

... WE EACH PAY INTO THE NHS £17.50 per WEEK  what's that 25 dollars.

Maybe $30.00, which would be a bit more than $120.00 per month, which compares very favorably to the $600.00 per month paid by my family now. Even if the $120.00 is individual, which would require multiplying by the number of individuals in my legal household, I'd still save a bundle.

US health care coverage is broke like hell.

astra wrote:
Compare my COST to your insurance and there is NO comparison!

True that.

astra wrote:
The EXTRA you are paying is going straight into the insurance companies coffers - for nothing else than corporate greed!!

I don't know where the extra is going. I do know where the extra is not going; it's not going to offset or eliminate my co-pays, and it's not going to ensure that the medications and dosages paid for are the medications and dosages prescribed by my doctors, which amounts to accountants' decisions superseding medical doctors' decisions (and I betcha ain't nar one of those accountants ever sniffed the inside of a medical school).

astra wrote:
We are short of nothing - do NOT believe the scare stories that you hear!

I don't. I believe the true stories that I hear, including these true stories:

New Zealand (Auckland, the most populous city) was short of the life-preserving treatments that my New Zealand friends needed to preserve their lives. My friends are alive and healthy today because San Francisco had the treatment.

The Netherlands (Amsterdam) was short of the life-preserving procedure that my friend's Dutch aunt needed to preserve her life. My friend's aunt is alive and functioning today because Dallas had the procedure.

As stipulated before, I read that Detroit had the treatment/procedure that Quebec lacked desired by Quebec's governor general (with the disclaimer that it could have been Ontario, and it could have been the premier).

As the old saying goes, "facts is facts"; since I am reality-driven, I pay attention to facts.

astra wrote:
My AVASTIN costs over $4.000 dollars - £2.300 a MONTH  and I pay no more money into the kitty.  Everyone pays into this.

Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution (see it here) delineates the delegated powers of Congress, which cannot exercise authority in areas in which it is not authorized to exercise authority; thus, Congress cannot pass a law requiring any citizen or resident of the United States of America to participate in and pay for any interstate commerce activity. To put it simply, Congress can regulate interstate commerce, but Congress cannot coerce interstate commerce.

The Interstate Commerce clause was the authority relied upon by Congress to pass the portion of the health care reform law that was ruled unconstitutional by a federal circuit court of appeals. That's the portion that would have allowed the federal government to require that everyone pay into the kitty.

astra wrote:
OK so Ontario pays purchase tax!

Sales tax. To American USV sensibilities, exorbitant sales tax.

astra wrote:
To do so here,  is outlawed in UK by the EU pi55takers!

So assert your sovereignty and get out of the EU. The United States of America is a member of the United Nations, NATO, the Pan-American conference, G12 (or whatever), SEATO, and Lord knows what else, and neither my fellow Texans nor I have ceded our Texas sovereignty or our United States sovereignty to any damned body. Y'all might take a tip from us on that one.

And get y'allselves a couple of CVNs, If Germany or France, the EU bully boys, should try to check y'all whilst y'all are exercising y'all's hard-earned sovereignty, park a CVN off their coasts, in international waters, and run through a few Super Hornet launch and recovery evolutions, just for practice, you understand, and watch the bully boys back off an leave y'all alone.

I trust neither Germany nor (especially) France as far as I can throw them.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:16 pm

And get y'allselves a couple of XCVNs, If germany or France, the EU bully boys, should try to check y'all whilst y'all are ecercising y'all's hard-eraned sovereignty, park a CVN off their coasts, in international waters, and run through a few Super Hornet launch and recovery evolutions, just for paractice, you understand, and watch the bully boys backm off an leave y'all alone.

I trust neither Germany nor (especially) france as far as I can throw them.
[quote]

Gunship diplomacy and against fellow NATO, UN, G12 and G20 members way to go ROB, but the again didn't Perry talk abot texas ceding from the Union last year?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:20 pm

astra wrote:
Rock!

... WE EACH PAY INTO THE NHS £17.50 per WEEK  what's that 25 dollars.
Maybe $30.00, which would be a bit more than $120.00 per month, which compares very favorably to the $600.00 per month paid by my family now. Even if the $120.00 is individual, which would require multiplying by the number of individuals in my legal household, I'd still save a bundle.

US health care coverage is broke like hell.

astra wrote:
Compare my COST to your insurance and there is NO comparison!
True that.
astra wrote:
The EXTRA you are paying is going straight into the insurance companies coffers - for nothing else than corporate greed!!
I don't know where the extra is going. I do know where the extra is not going; it's not going to offset or eliminate my co-pays, and it's not going to ensure that the medications and dosages paid for are the medications and dosages prescribed by my doctors, which amounts to accountants' decisions superseding medical doctors' decisions (and I betcha ain't nar one of those accountants ever sniffed the inside of a medical school).
astra wrote:
We are short of nothing - do NOT believe the scare stories that you hear!
I don't. I believe the true stories that I hear, including these true stories:


  1. New Zealand (Auckland, the most populous city) was short of the life-preserving treatments that my New Zealand friends needed to preserve their lives. My friends are alive and healthy today because San Francisco had the treatment.
  2. The Netherlands (Amsterdam) was short of the life-preserving procedure that my friend's Dutch aunt needed to preserve her life. My friend's aunt is alive and functioning today because Dallas had the procedure.
  3. As stipulated before, I read that Detroit had the treatment/procedure that Quebec lacked desired by Quebec's governor general (with the disclaimer that it could have been Ontario, and it could have been the premier).


As the old saying goes, "facts is facts"; since I am reality-driven, I pay attention to facts.

astra wrote:
My AVASTIN costs over $4.000 dollars - £2.300 a MONTH  and I pay no more money into the kitty.  Everyone pays into this.
Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution (see it here: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8) delineates the delegated powers of Congress, which cannot exercise authority in areas in which it is not authorized to exercise authority; thus, Congress cannot pass a law requiring any citizen or resident of the United States of America to participate in and pay for any interstate commerce activity. To put it simply, Congress can regulate interstate commerce, but Congress cannot coerce interstate commerce.

The Interstate Commerce clause was the authority relied upon by Congress to pass the portion of the health care reform law that was ruled unconstitutional by a federal circuit court of appeals. That's the portion that would have allowed the federal government to require that everyone pay into the kitty.

astra wrote:
OK so Ontario pays purchase tax!
Sales tax. To American USV sensibilities, exorbitant sales tax.
astra wrote:
To do so here,  is outlawed in UK by the EU pi55takers!
So assert your sovereignty and get out of the EU. The United States of America is a member of the United Nations, NATO, the Pan-American conference, G12 (or whatever), SEATO, and Lord knows what else, and neither my fellow Texans nor I have ceded our Texas sovereignty or our United States sovereignty to any damned body. Y'all might take a tip from us on that one.

And get y'all'selves a couple of CVNs, If Germany or France, the EU bully boys, should try to check y'all whilst y'all are exercising y'all's hard-earned sovereignty, park a CVN off their coasts, in international waters, and run through a few Super Hornet launch and recovery evolutions, just for practice, you understand, and watch the bully boys back off an leave y'all alone.

I trust neither Germany nor (especially) France as far as I can throw them.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:14 pm

New Zealand (Auckland, the most populous city) was short of the life-preserving treatments that my New Zealand friends needed to preserve their lives. My friends are alive and healthy today because San Francisco had the treatment.

I hate to break the news to you, ROB, but America isn't any different. You should try looking up the artificial scarcity of certain life-saving drugs that the Big Pharma companies are creating. It has forced health care providers to purchase these drugs from third party "back door" sellers for as much as a 1200% mark-up in price. It has become so bad that even the government is slowly mobilizing to take action, though not nearly as tough an action as is needed. The government only wants to require Big Pharma companies to notify health care providers in advance when a shortage will occur.

But this is a concrete example of why some things should never be about profit. Most of the drug shortages are not caused by hard-to-get ingredients becoming even harder to get. Instead, Big Pharma companies are cutting or stopping altogether the production of drugs that are not high-profit. To hell with the people who need them to stay alive ... unless you can afford to purchase those medicines at a 1200% mark-up above actual market value.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:37 pm

Shirina wrote:
New Zealand (Auckland, the most populous city) was short of the life-preserving treatments that my New Zealand friends needed to preserve their lives. My friends are alive and healthy today because San Francisco had the treatment.

I hate to break the news to you, ROB, but America isn't any different.
No problem, your example, however true it might be, not withstanding.

You've broken no news to me, because America USV is in fact different, enough so that New Zealand doctors, hardly "third world" quality, who diagnosed my friends' maladies quickly enough, just as quickly put them on a flight for San Francisco (Air New Zealand, I believe) and pre-arranged their speedy admittance to the medical facility where the available treatment therein, unavailable throughout New Zealand (or Australia), preserved their lives.

They are alive and healthy today due to availing themselves of treatment available in neither New Zealand nor Australia but available in the United States. That's fact.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astra on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:50 pm

"Varying reports containing medical tourism statistics put the number of American patients seeking healthcare abroad between 500,000 to 750,000 in 2007."
http://www.health-tourism.com/medical-tourism/statistics/


I only put in "american health tourism" into my search engine and am astounded by the SHEER NUMBER of 'hits' I have made.


This ALSO is BIG BIG business in USA, and the reason must surely be along the lines of Shirina's points.

It is cheaper abroad, and you get to see nice places (when you come round after the procedure)

Although, Brits who were treated in India have reported problems on their return home, and the good ole NHS was left to tie up the loose ends, for free of course!
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by gator on Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:13 pm

Interesting discussion with good points on both sides of the fence. Here's a bit of a Canadian slant on things. While Canada's health care system is somewhat good, it ain't the latest and greatest thing that ever came down the pipe. Here's a little comparison called Me and My Dog and it is from personal experience.
 
ME. I need an MRI scan. The wait can be anywhere up to two years, depending on the severity of the condition. In my case, it was fairly severe so I only had to wait about three weeks. The doctor said that he would have preferred to have it done within three hours. In addition, because those few MRI's available are always in use, you may have to be there at two o'clock in the morning. Of course, this is a serious inconvenience to those of us who live far out of town. On the good side, when it finally happens, it doesn't cost a lot of money other than transprotation costs, outrageous parking fees at the hospital and whatnot.
 
MY DOG needed an MRI scan. Mrs. Gator and I talked it over with the vet during regular office hours. It cost about $40.00 and they did it the next day while we went for a liesurely coffee. And it was done in a small town with a population of about 5000. Ain't that something? A small town can afford an MRI scanner for pets but they are forbidden to have one for people because of some bumbling bureaucratic regulation.
 
ME. I need dental work. It's at least a three week wait. I do have some coverage which the company I worked for until I retired said was pretty good - not the best coverage available but definitely in the top ten percentile. One key hint about dental work in Canada - bring money, lots and lots and lots of money.
 
MY DOG also needed some dental work. It cost about $300 and included the cost of her being knocked out of course. Again, next day service or at least it could have been had it not been for the fact that I worked shiftwork and couldn't make it in the next day. All in all, my dog's dental work was no more expensive than mine and there is no health care plan for pets that I was aware of at the time.
 
ME. Our family physician is still working 80+ hours a week. I really don't know how he does it and remains sane. He is always pleasant to deal with and always competent and always behind schedule.
 
MY DOG. If we had an appointment to get our dog checked/repaired, the vet was always with us within ten minutes of our appointment time. Vets also have to go through a huge educational expense and their costs reflect that.
 
 
Anyway, we got that little anecdote out of the way. Now a question or two or three.
 
1. Why should doctors of any stripe have to pay a king's ransom in education bills and then work for peanuts? I have a great deal of difficulty with this part.
2. If a vet can get an MRI done on an animal in short order, why can't it be done with humans? Are we not at least as important in the overall scheme of things as some dawg?
3. What about self inflicted injuries? when people go in for high risk sports such as skydiving or motocross racing, should they have their injuries repaired on the taxpayers dime as well? This does not seem proper.
 
One last point. Travel insurance. Any time we travel outside of Canada, we always get travel insurance. It  is a bit costly but still way cheaper than winding up in a US or Mexican hospital bed and having to sell the farm to pay for it.
 
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:29 pm

Speaking of anecdotes, I was just reading an account on another forum about a retiree who was in a traffic accident with her husband - severe enough that two months later, he died of his wounds. The medical expenses were so great that it wiped out her lifetime savings and caused her to have to move in with one of her children ... and she hates it there (which is what the post was actually about, not the medical expenses).

Isn't it grand to work your tail off your entire life only to have it all whisked away in an eyeblink thanks to our wonderful and expensive health care system.

Why should doctors of any stripe have to pay a king's ransom in education bills and then work for peanuts?

Unless you're a small town GP, you normally don't work for peanuts. I've lived in a lot of small towns over the years, and I've yet to find a small town GP that was younger than 50, and most of them are quite a bit older than that. Perhaps small town GPs do not become small town GPs until later in their careers - after they paid off their debts working in a city hospital.

At any rate, MSNBC ran a story some months back about the 20 fastest growing salaries in America. Of those 20, 11 of them were doctors. Of those 11, doctors were in the top 6. I think the garden variety GP was in there somewhere. Most of them, however, were already making well over $400k per year, and they were receiving 13% raises. The increase in their salaries totaled more than what most people make to begin with, and they'd be lucky to get a 3% or 4% raise.

That's one chunky peanut.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:45 am

If you begrudge paying a Doctor for his skill and knowledge, the principal alternative is Prayer.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:49 pm

I'm confused...exactly why should a private, for-profit company produce a product which is not profitable for them to produce simply to have it available in the marketplace?

I think Shirina's outrage is misplaced...instead of being furious at private corporations, she should be furious that there is no government option for the manufacture and distribution of said medications.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:39 pm

I'm confused...exactly why should a private, for-profit company produce a product which is not profitable for them to produce simply to have it available in the marketplace?

Well, if you believe that profit is more important than the moral and ethical concerns of saving people's lives, then I can see how that would be confusing. These Big Pharma companies are not teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and thus have to close down production lines to stay in business. In fact, the drugs they discontinued still brought in a profit, just not a big profit, so there is no true justification for removing them from the market place. Rather, the Big Pharma companies want to maximize profits at the expense of the American people, and I find that to be outrageous.
instead of being furious at private corporations, she should be furious that there is no government option for the manufacture and distribution of said medications.

While it is standard practice for those of a conservative nature to direct all blame and anger toward the government, my own anger will be directed toward where it belongs - the Big Pharma companies. The government is not withholding life-saving drugs just to boost profits. If not for their actions, the government wouldn't have to manufacture and distribute those medicines in the first place. In addition, during a time when people want to cut government spending, the chances of anyone voting in a bill that would require the government to spend a lot of money building a manufacturing plant, hiring hundreds of workers, and creating a distribution network, is roughly slim to none.

Big Pharma already has this infrastructure in place, but closing down production of blood pressure medication so they can shift workers to making more vanity drugs like Viagra or some such is unconscionable.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:04 pm

I'm confused...exactly why should a private, for-profit company produce a product which is not profitable for them to produce simply to have it available in the marketplace?
I'm not sure if it's the same in the USA but over here in Britain we are aware that when a Drug company develops and markets a new drug they have a production licence (Copy Right) on it's formula for a number of years, during this time they are able to charge what they like under the excuse of recovering their research and development costs, once this time is over then other companies are able to produce that drug.....often and a greatly reduced price...and still be able to make a profit......

Example Novartis Pharmaceuticals UK Ltd's Clozaril £77 for 100 tablets or Sandoz's Zaponex £33.88 per 100 tablets........

It is usually at this point the drug company comes up with an 'new' improved version or replacement and the cycle starts again...

Of course the drug company will have already primed doctors to purchasing their 'New' drug, by claiming that it is the best ever at treating whatever it is being used for......

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:40 am

"While it is standard practice for those of a conservative nature to direct all blame and anger toward the government, my own anger will be directed toward where it belongs - the Big Pharma companies. The government is not withholding life-saving drugs just to boost profits. If not for their actions, the government wouldn't have to manufacture and distribute those medicines in the first place. In addition, during a time when people want to cut government spending, the chances of anyone voting in a bill that would require the government to spend a lot of money building a manufacturing plant, hiring hundreds of workers, and creating a distribution network, is roughly slim to none." ~ Shirina


Your demand is that "life saving drugs" be made available to the general population on principle alone. For that, you need to take the issue up with the government...not a private corporation which has no compunction to manufacture a product in accordance with your ethos regardless of profit or ability to bring the product to the marketplace. I don't blame the government for not having "drugs"...I'm pointing out that YOUR indignation is ill-placed and illogical. A company has no obligation to produce a "life saving drug" anymore than a company has an obligation to produce slinkys. I, unlike you, understand that life is not fair and that even though "good" can be done that you can't COMPEL people to "be good for goodness' sake", let alone corporations.

If you expect charity from a business, you will continually be disappointed...not because the business is doing anything wrong but because of your own flawed expectations.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:59 am

I, unlike you, understand that life is not fair and that even though "good" can be done that you can't COMPEL people to "be good for goodness' sake", let alone corporations.

What's funny is that this is precisely what conservatives think will happen. That, if left to their own devices free of governmental influence, corporations will do the right thing. It is one of the biggest arguments I have heard from the Right in support of deregulating private businesses. Perhaps you should take a jaunt over to Moonbeam's board, visit the Politics and Markets section, and tell the conservatives therein that no, one should not expect them to do the right thing unless there is profit in it.

And there is rarely profit in doing the right thing. If there was, then this world wouldn't be half as unfair as you say it is.

But I'm not the "lay down and accept it" kind of person. When I see injustice and wrongs, I speak out against it. I may be powerless in any other capacity, but I'll be damned if I'll quietly and meekly "accept" that which we should not accept.

The world may not be fair, but that doesn't mean I have to champion it, and I certainly don't need to defend it.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:25 am

If you expect charity from a business, you will continually be disappointed...not because the business is doing anything wrong but because of your own flawed expectations.

And this leads back to the original post where Buchmann said that those who can not afford healthcare could rely on Charity but if 'Big' Business is unwilling or unable to provide that charity where will it come from?........

With all but a few exceptions those who could most afford to be charitable seem to be only interested in donating money to political figures and parties and as you have already intimated if there is nothing in it for those who can afford charitable works why do they give to politics other than to hbe the power behind the 'throne' so to speak?...

Perhaps the next question that should be asked is 'Why do people give to charity?'
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:40 am

astradt1 wrote:
If you expect charity from a business, you will continually be disappointed...not because the business is doing anything wrong but because of your own flawed expectations.

And this leads back to the original post where Buchmann said that those who can not afford healthcare could rely on Charity but if 'Big' Business is unwilling or unable to provide that charity where will it come from?
One place from which it will not come is the air, as money doesn’t fall from the sky.

Quick history lesson: Discretionary income, from whence comes charity, did not exist prior to the industrial revolution and the concurrent rise of capitalism. Capitalism coupled with modern industrialism and its offshoots (including the electronics/communication revolution by which we communicate hereon), generates money in volumes unimaginable prior to the 19th Century.

It isn’t that capitalism didn’t exist until the 19th Century; it’s that the 19th Century enabled capitalism to expand such that our 21st Century world would be incomprehensible to an 18th Century human. If we were to dispose of capitalism, our world as we know it would collapse as our world’s economy imploded.

Capitalism, and economies fueled thereby, are the core of all of which we speak, including health care coverage of all stripes. A time machine journey to either 18th Century Britain or 19th Century America would reveal that no one had health coverage, not landowners, not nobility, not royalty, not even that crazy king that we “kicked out” 1775-1783. Without capitalism, health care coverage would disappear.

There’s y’all’s starting point. Y’all proceed on from that truth.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:40 am

QUOTE: Discretionary income, from whence comes charity, did not exist prior to the industrial revolution and the concurrent rise of capitalism.

Actually it did exist in substantial part due to the tithes voluntarily paid by Churchgoers, which were passed on to the deserving poor in the form of alms.

There is little in contemporary society which has no foundation in the past.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:00 pm

"What's funny is that this is precisely what conservatives think will happen. That, if left to their own devices free of governmental influence, corporations will do the right thing. It is one of the biggest arguments I have heard from the Right in support of deregulating private businesses" ~ Shirina

Define "doing the right thing".

Obviously, you think that it means that they will voluntarily distribute their earnings to those who hold no claim to them. To some, "doing the right thing" means looking out for the best interests of the business principals and those who've vested themselves into the business venture.

The fallacy of liberalism is that people are entitled to things which they have not earned and the withholding of these items from them by their rightful owners is immoral.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:03 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
QUOTE: Discretionary income, from whence comes charity, did not exist prior to the industrial revolution and the concurrent rise of capitalism.

Actually it did exist in substantial part due to the tithes voluntarily paid by Churchgoers, which were passed on to the deserving poor in the form of alms.
Actually, it didn't exist.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:11 pm

Actually, it didn't exist.

Is that because it's not mentioned in the constitution?

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astra on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:32 pm

company has no obligation to produce a "life saving drug" anymore than a company has an obligation to produce slinkys. I, unlike you, understand that life is not fair and that even though "good" can be done that you can't COMPEL people to "be good for goodness' sake", let alone corporations.

OZ

I think what Shirina is getting at (Though I would HATE to be seen to be speaking for the Lady) is that those companies treat the plebs as fodder, charging what they will, when times are good. When times turn bad or hard, they look to their friends in government (who may have/may not have recieved 'pleasures' from said companies). Both these factions treat the tax take as a personal purse. That the tax system is fed by the plebs in the first place is taken for granted! I have a thread on the Cancer strategies of big business and the links provided show what has been happening since the 1950s

At NO TIME do companies and Politicians act for the "Weal o' the Realm" - the good of the country, but for their own betterment. The Bankers are the epitamy of this example, getting themselves tied in knots, and DEMANDING tax dollar/pounds to bail them out, because they DESERVE such to happen! It seemed (from here in UK) acceptable to bail out Wall Street with billions of Tax$ but not ok to help the likes of General Motors!
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:38 pm

astradt1 wrote:
Actually, it didn't exist.

Is that because it's not mentioned in the constitution?
It's because it didn't exist.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:57 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
astradt1 wrote:
Actually, it didn't exist.

Is that because it's not mentioned in the constitution?
It's because it didn't exist.

And your proof/evidence is?????
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:12 pm

Define "doing the right thing".

C'mon, Oz, let's not delve into defining the obvious. Companies who manufacture a life-saving drug have a moral responsibility to the people, a responsibility they CHOSE to accept when they decided to open their doors for business. They are not making Pet Rocks, bamboo steamers, or earrings. They are making a product that can literally condemn a person to death should that product be withheld. If the company can produce these drugs and still make a profit, NOT doing so is morally wrong.
Obviously, you think that it means that they will voluntarily distribute their earnings to those who hold no claim to them.

Your argument just took a wrong turn. Where did I say that they should voluntarily distribute their earnings? I haven't. These Pharma companies were selling these drugs and making a profit. They were not handing them out free of charge nor was producing the drugs putting the company at financial risk. The only reason why they decided to stop production is because they wanted MORE profit, and that is where the questionable morality comes into play.
To some, "doing the right thing" means looking out for the best interests of the business principals and those who've vested themselves into the business venture.

In this case, "doing the right thing" simply means being greedy.
The fallacy of liberalism is that people are entitled to things which they have not earned and the withholding of these items from them by their rightful owners is immoral.

You really need to get your argument back on track. You're talking about welfare here. I'm not. I'm talking about a business producing a life-saving product for a profit generated by the consumers who purchase them. Instead, these Pharma companies aren't happy with the profit they make from these drugs so they decided to focus their efforts on more profitable drugs. Could they do both? Of course. Hell, they could even expand, create some jobs, and make ALL of the drugs they are capable of producing.

But no. They just want to focus all of their energies on manufacturing the high-end drugs. To hell with the consumer.


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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:03 pm

My argument is not off track...a company which manufactures a product has no "moral obligation" to produce it or continue to produce it beyond whether it is profitable to do so.

We are guaranteed the right to life...which means we are guaranteed that no one may deprive us of our life without due process. The right to life does not encompass the right to "quality of life" nor does it include the right to the extension of life through medicine.

There is NO moral obligation for a private, for-profit company to manufacture "life-saving" medications. If you want to vent your righteous indignation in an appropriate fashion, lobby that the government lay claim to the medication under the commerce clause and the general welfare stipulation and manufacture it at taxpayer expense.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:56 pm

A time machine journey to either 18th Century Britain or 19th Century America would reveal that no one had health coverage, not landowners, not nobility, not royalty, not even that crazy king that we “kicked out” 1775-1783.

They didn't have it because they didn't need it. There was no such thing as kidney transplants, open heart surgery, or CAT scans. Even the ubiquitous X-ray machine did not begin appearing in doctors' offices until the early-mid 20th Century. The was no health care 'industry' and bartering was still a time-honored method of payment.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astra on Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:05 pm

...a company which manufactures a product has no "moral obligation"



OK BUT!

These pharma, when they come up with a new drug, a new cure all (which Thalidomide was s'pposed to be) hail all the pundits and media machine, that they are the bestest, most caringest company on the planet. You are now saying that the co-decile "we may remove a few tried and tested reliable drugs from the market as they are now not profitable ENOUGH would be OK?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:21 pm

My argument is not off track...a company which manufactures a product has no "moral obligation" to produce it or continue to produce it beyond whether it is profitable to do so.
That wasn't your argument. You were talking about whether companies should be giving away their products or having it confiscated - ostensibly by the government.
We are guaranteed the right to life...which means we are guaranteed that no one may deprive us of our life without due process.
Note how I said it was morally wrong not legally wrong. Corporations are not beholden to anything in the Constitution. They don't have to give anyone free speech; they don't have to give you a vote; they don't have to give due process, a trial, a jury, or even the right to face your accusers; and they don't have to give you life, liberty, or even the opportunity to pursue happiness.

AND because they don't have to, almost all of them don't. To me, that speaks volumes about the nature of business and the worship of the almighty Dollar.

Fact is, I'm not fooled. The government - the quintessential evil of our age if you believe the conservative hype - is very limited in what it can do. Corporations are not and aside from government regulations (which conservatives want to do away with) and the legal law (employers can't execute people, obviously), they can do what they wish. Because of that free pass, corporations are inherently fascist and dictatorial.

I find the willingness for a supposedly freedom-loving faction like conservatives to embrace authoritarianism and dictatorial policies in the workplace to be a rather bizarre dichotomy.

I just saw a post on another forum where conservatives are going ape over the FBI using facial recognition software to identify wanted criminals and potential terrorists. Oh, that's an invasion of our privacy! Big Brother is watching you! It's the evil gub'mint at it again!

Meanwhile, corporations are nosing around in your credit and financial histories, they're nosing around in your supposedly confidential medical information, and now they're nosing about in your social life by trolling social networking sites to see if you're behaving properly.

And the conservatives don't CARE! Well, if you want to ignore the 800 lb. gorilla, that's your prerogative. But if there is any freedom-curtailing nonsense coming from anywhere in this country, it's from the corporate world. Calling the transition to florescent light bulbs "tyranny" (as many have) while defending a company that will not hire or even fire you because of what you say on Facebook ... that makes no effing sense.

I still stand by what I said before. It is morally reprehensible that a company would allow untold numbers of people to go without life-saving drugs for the sake of bigger profits. Nothing will change my mind on that issue. Any individual or organization that has the power and capability to save a life and chooses not to is acting in an immoral fashion - and that goes double if the only reason why is to make a bigger buck.

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astra on Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:10 pm

Seems to me that the Big Pharma worship the $ and £ and that their mindset is in Bushido!
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:39 pm

QUOTE: Actually, it didn't exist..

For an American, nothing existed prior to the Declaration of Independence.

The History of the World is like the Old Testament. Bunk.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astra on Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:57 pm

It really is amazing wot yer find on an innocent trawl through the net!

Al-Arafah Islami Bank Ltd Chairman Badiur Rahman distributes solar panels free to a person in Shahjadpur under Sirajganj yesterday. The bank donates free solar panels among poor people in the area who have school-going children in their families under its corporate social responsibility initiatives. Photo


"Corporate Social Responsibility Initiatives!"
http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/photo_gallery.php?pid=206484


It CAN be done, It IS being done, just not here - by here read USA & UK


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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:41 pm

The bank donates free solar panels among poor people in the area who have school-going children in their families

Yep it does happen, and in truth, many Pharma companies do offer free medication for those with low incomes. Therefore, they aren't completely heartless. However, if they quit making the drug altogether, the purpose is defeated.

There's another lesson to be learned here, as well. American conservatives really push the idea of having the poor rely exclusively on charity, but the above quote gives an example of why that idea won't work. As is often the case, as it is in this case, charity applies mostly to children and to people who have children. Here in my state of North Carolina, one cannot even get Medicaid - which is the government program that provides health care coverage for the poor - unless you have children. Of course, North Carolina is a conservative state. Liberal states do not require you to have children in order to qualify for Medicaid.

I find that philosophy rather ironic given that conservatives are constantly angry with "welfare moms" - women who have children just to increase their welfare allotments. Strange how conservative states set up welfare so that one must have children to even qualify. And then they wonder why poor women become "welfare moms."
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by thatcher on Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:29 pm

Just to be clear...IT IS AGAINST THE LAW IN THE UNITED STATES TO TURN ANYONE AWAY IF THEY NEED MEDICAL CARE.  Afterall, how do you think all the illegals get care?
 We have many very large charities in the US.  The hospital shops the bill to the different charities and they pick up the tab or a portion of it.  Maybe that's what Bachmann was referrring to.
 Any guy without teeth can get dentures free of charge.  That's rediculous.  Any teaching hospital would do it for him but other clinics would as well.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Farley on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:12 pm

The only poor people in the USA with lousy dental care are the dumb ones...right Thatcher?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:20 pm

IT IS AGAINST THE LAW IN THE UNITED STATES TO TURN ANYONE AWAY IF THEY NEED MEDICAL CARE.

That's only true for emergency rooms in public hospitals ... and even they can turn you away if they deem your situation not to be an immediate emergency.

Clinics can only provide the care they are capable of providing, and for most of them, that means very little.

Plus, some free clinic pharmacies will not carry any type of scheduled drug
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:34 pm

Is this one of those folk beliefs? Like the one about it being illegal for a Bar to refuse you a drink of water?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:11 am

Is this one of those folk beliefs? Like the one about it being illegal for a Bar to refuse you a drink of water?

Yep.

I was personally refused treatment at an ER when I needed help with an unknown bacterial infection (eew, right?). I had just graduated college so I had no insurance and I could no longer use the campus doctor, so I went to the ER. I was briefly examined then promptly showed to the door. I was told that "they don't do that here" and that I needed to see a general practitioner. If that weren't bad enough, they sent me a bill for $152 a week later.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:48 am

Hard cases make bad law, but such misunderstandings can arise from simple ignorance. Take your ailing car to a Garage with a simple instruction to "fix it" is likely to end in tears. Similarly, to turn up at a medical establishment expecting free treatment in the absence of personal or State health insurance is rather naive.

In business, a Credit Controller will want to know if they're going to get paid before providing Goods or Services, so how does a health-provider differ?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:25 pm

"What does CVN stand for - yes I know it is an aircraft carrier but where does CVN come in???"

I dont know what CVN stand for, but I may be able to assist with others.

HMS is for Her Majestys Ship, as used by the Royal Navy.
USS is for Unnited States Ship as used by US Navy
IMB is for Issa My Boat  as used by the Regia Maritima, Royal Italian Navy.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:13 pm

"I dont know what CVN stand for ............"

Clearly very Naval
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:15 pm

Hard cases make bad law, but such misunderstandings can arise from simple ignorance. Take your ailing car to a Garage with a simple instruction to "fix it" is likely to end in tears. Similarly, to turn up at a medical establishment expecting free treatment in the absence of personal or State health insurance is rather naive.

No one at the ER even mentioned payment or even asked if I had insurance.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

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