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Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

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Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astradt1 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

During one of her latest campaign stops in New Hampshire, Bachmann told the audience, in response to a question about healthcare that to protect the best heatlhcare system it had to remain a free market system, and that if you can't afford the best than you will have to rely on charity.........

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/bachmann-tells-man-no-teeth-rely-charity

It could be inferred that she is suggesting that only those who can afford the best should get the best......

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:15 pm

Hard cases make bad law, but such misunderstandings can arise from simple ignorance. Take your ailing car to a Garage with a simple instruction to "fix it" is likely to end in tears. Similarly, to turn up at a medical establishment expecting free treatment in the absence of personal or State health insurance is rather naive.

No one at the ER even mentioned payment or even asked if I had insurance.

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:30 pm

Sometimes a response can vary with attitude.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:02 pm

"Clearly very Naval"

No matter how I try, my belly button won't float.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:14 pm


“CVN” = “Rumble, Youngblood, Rumble.”
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:29 pm

Nothing more need be said.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Marshabar on Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:29 pm

Did Bachmann tell him meth use was a bad idea too?  Lots of toothless people around these days thanks to a government that props up and benefits from the drug trade.

http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/narcoDollars.html
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by witchfinder on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:07 pm

What I fail to understand about the Conservative way of thinking is that if your at the bottom of the pile - no qualifications - low waged - out of work - out of luck - totaly fed up, turning to alcohol or drugs, then the answer is to make these people even poorer and even worse off by threataning to take welfare away from them.

Yes - we all know that some people will not get of their backsides and help themselves, but the truth is that most simply want a helping hand, a lifeline, a break.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:10 am

but the truth is that most simply want a helping hand, a lifeline, a break.

And most of them will never get it. Even if all the layabouts woke up tomorrow morning and decided to go job hunting, a large majority of them will be considered unemployable especially in this economy. They simply do not have the means to compete. In an age when employers are so swamped with applications that they have to troll the social networking sites hoping to find a reason to disqualify someone, a person who hasn't worked in 10 years or has too many large gaps in their employment history will find their applications in the trash faster than greased lightning. Low-end employers would rather hire an untried kid than an adult who has proven him/herself irresponsible for the last X number of years. The cycle of welfare is not easy to break when you do not have the ability to compete for jobs ... and I absolutely HATE competing for jobs. I'm not a competitive person; I prefer cooperation over competition. Fortunately I already have a job, but many others who have little formal education and haven't really accomplished anything in life will find themselves sitting by the phone for a very, very long time. Eventually, people give up and turn to welfare as an answer to survival.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:02 am

Historical authors such as Charles Dickens provide an accurate picture of life without a benefits safety-net, and a traveller in the 21st. Century can easily find evidence of private wealth amidst public squalor. Those at the bottom of the pile feel obliged to beg and/or steal.

It's not only Socialists who believe that paying benefits to the needy is a cheaper alternative to Civil Commotion.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by astra on Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Indeed

Daniel Defoe, in his "Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain" describes many of these instances -
"tho' there are remains also on the English side, yet, not so plain, and in many places things much restor'd, and in a way to be more so: But the poverty of the common people, and the indolence of the gentry, will fully account for the difference. The bridge over the river at Annand is very firm and good, and there is a tolerable good market."


http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/text/contents_page.jsp?t_id=Defoe
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:33 pm

Bachmann is toast.
Toothless man unable to take advantage of the situation.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:32 am

Ontarians pay fifteen to twenty percent sales tax.
I believe it's 13%.

"The harmonized sales tax being proposed by Ontario will combine the eight percent provincial sales tax with the five percent federal goods and services tax (GST) to create a single 13 percent harmonized sales tax (HST) administered by the federal government. The Ontario HST is scheduled to take effect July 1, 2010."
http://canadaonline.about.com/od/money/a/ontariohst.htm


3.As stipulated before, I read that Detroit had the treatment/procedure that Quebec lacked desired by Quebec's governor general (with the disclaimer that it could have been Ontario, and it could have been the premier).


As the old saying goes, "facts is facts"; since I am reality-driven, I pay attention to facts.
Does anyone else see the irony here? "I pay attention to facts. It could of been the governor general, unless it was the premier. Maybe it was Quebec, unless it was Ontario".
Are you sure it was Detroit?







Last edited by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:40 am

Why should doctors of any stripe have to pay a king's ransom in education bills and then work for peanuts? I have a great deal of difficulty with this part.

Canadian doctors DON'T pay a king's ransom for their education. Canadian universities are heavily subsidised by taxpayer monies. My niece graduated from McGill medical school 2 years ago. Grand total? $27,000 for the entire thing.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:21 am

weltschmerz wrote:
Thursday 13 October 2011 at 15:20 RockOnBrother wrote:
Ontarians pay fifteen to twenty percent sales tax.
I believe it's 13%.
"The harmonized sales tax being proposed by Ontario will combine the eight percent provincial sales tax with the five percent federal goods and services tax (GST) to create a single 13 percent harmonized sales tax (HST) administered by the federal government. The Ontario HST is scheduled to take effect July 1, 2010."
http://canadaonline.about.com/od/money/a/ontariohst.htm
Thursday 13 October 2011 at 15:20 RockOnBrother wrote:
3. As stipulated before, I read that Detroit had the treatment/procedure that Quebec lacked desired by Quebec's governor general (with the disclaimer that it could have been Ontario, and it could have been the premier).

As the old saying goes, "facts is facts"; since I am reality-driven, I pay attention to facts.
Does anyone else see the irony here?

No.

weltschmerz wrote:
Thursday 13 October 2011 at 15:20 RockOnBrother wrote:
"I pay attention to facts.

True. Thank you for reposting truth, and thank you for quoting me accurately.

weltschmerz wrote:
Thursday 13 October 2011 at 15:20 RockOnBrother wrote:
It could of been the governor general, unless it was the premier. Maybe it was Quebec, unless it was Ontario".

My bad. It was neither the former governor general, the gorgeous Head of State that knocked my socks off every time I saw and/or heard her, the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean, nor the current governor general, the Right Honourable David Johnston. Where I said “governor general”, I meant “governor.”

In fact, given the fact that I’m going from memory:


  1. It could have been the governor of Quebec;
  2. It could have been the governor of Ontario;
  3. It could have been the premier of Quebec;
  4. It could have been the premier of Ontario.


In any case, it was one of the two highest government officials of one of the two most populous provinces of Canada. If you desire that I “tie it down” tighter, I would appreciate your assistance in doing so, assistance you are ideally situated to provide. If you do choose to assist me in my quest to be as precise as possible insofar as paying attention to facts is concerned, I thank you in advance.

weltschmerz wrote:
Are you sure it was Detroit?

I am sure it was the United States of America. I believe it was Detroit.

Moving on: My post of Thursday, 13 October 2011, 15:20 (GMT+1), quoted in its entirety, for reference:

Thursday 13 October 2011 at 15:20 RockOnBrother wrote:
astra wrote:
Rock!

... WE EACH PAY INTO THE NHS £17.50 per WEEK  what's that 25 dollars.
Maybe $30.00, which would be a bit more than $120.00 per month, which compares very favorably to the $600.00 per month paid by my family now. Even if the $120.00 is individual, which would require multiplying by the number of individuals in my legal household, I'd still save a bundle.

US health care coverage is broke like hell.
astra wrote:
Compare my COST to your insurance and there is NO comparison!
True that.
astra wrote:
The EXTRA you are paying is going straight into the insurance companies coffers - for nothing else than corporate greed!!
I don't know where the extra is going. I do know where the extra is not going; it's not going to offset or eliminate my co-pays, and it's not going to ensure that the medications and dosages paid for are the medications and dosages prescribed by my doctors, which amounts to accountants' decisions superseding medical doctors' decisions (and I betcha ain't nar one of those accountants ever sniffed the inside of a medical school).
astra wrote:
We are short of nothing - do NOT believe the scare stories that you hear!

I don't. I believe the true stories that I hear, including these true stories:


  1. New Zealand (Auckland, the most populous city) was short of the life-preserving treatments that my New Zealand friends needed to preserve their lives. My friends are alive and healthy today because San Francisco had the treatment.
  2. The Netherlands (Amsterdam) was short of the life-preserving procedure that my friend's Dutch aunt needed to preserve her life. My friend's aunt is alive and functioning today because Dallas had the procedure.
  3. As stipulated before, I read that Detroit had the treatment/procedure that Quebec lacked desired by Quebec's governor general (with the disclaimer that it could have been Ontario, and it could have been the premier).


As the old saying goes, "facts is facts"; since I am reality-driven, I pay attention to facts.

astra wrote:
My AVASTIN costs over $4.000 dollars - £2.300 a MONTH  and I pay no more money into the kitty.  Everyone pays into this.
Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution (see it here: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8) delineates the delegated powers of Congress, which cannot exercise authority in areas in which it is not authorized to exercise authority; thus, Congress cannot pass a law requiring any citizen or resident of the United States of America to participate in and pay for any interstate commerce activity. To put it simply, Congress can regulate interstate commerce, but Congress cannot coerce interstate commerce.

The Interstate Commerce clause was the authority relied upon by Congress to pass the portion of the health care reform law that was ruled unconstitutional by a federal circuit court of appeals. That's the portion that would have allowed the federal government to require that everyone pay into the kitty.
astra wrote:
OK so Ontario pays purchase tax!
Sales tax. To American USV sensibilities, exorbitant sales tax.
astra wrote:
To do so here,  is outlawed in UK by the EU pi55takers!
So assert your sovereignty and get out of the EU. The United States of America is a member of the United Nations, NATO, the Pan-American conference, G12 (or whatever), SEATO, and Lord knows what else, and neither my fellow Texans nor I have ceded our Texas sovereignty or our United States sovereignty to any damned body. Y'all might take a tip from us on that one.

And get y'all'selves a couple of CVNs, If Germany or France, the EU bully boys, should try to check y'all whilst y'all are exercising y'all's hard-earned sovereignty, park a CVN off their coasts, in international waters, and run through a few Super Hornet launch and recovery evolutions, just for practice, you understand, and watch the bully boys back off an leave y'all alone.

I trust neither Germany nor (especially) France as far as I can throw them.

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t36p30-bachmann-tells-man-with-no-teeth-to-rely-on-charity

Note entry #3 on the list, which you quoted sans contextual reference. For ease of identification, I’ve portrayed the entire section in red and italicized/emboldened the portion you’ve quoted.

If I am informed by any poster that any part of any post authored by me is confusing in any way, I’ll do my best to clear up such confusion.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:47 pm

First we take Manhattan - then we take Berlin!
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:52 pm

In fact, given the fact that I’m going from memory:



1.It could have been the governor of Quebec;

2.It could have been the governor of Ontario;

3.It could have been the premier of Quebec;

4.It could have been the premier of Ontario.


In any case, it was one of the two highest government officials of one of the two most populous provinces of Canada.

I love how you pay attention to "facts". It was Danny Williams, the premier of Newfoundland. Newfoundland is hardly considered one of our most populous provinces.



The New York Post, for instance, in an article headlined "Oh (no), Canada" used the news to take a whack at healthcare reform in the U.S. And the American Thinker blog -- among many others -- argued that Williams' choice is evidence of the inferiority of Canada's "technologically second-rate and rationed system."

In Canada, cardiac specialists defended the premier's decision as a matter of choice and at the same time noted that -- with few exceptions -- most cardiac procedures are both available and done well in Canada.

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

By way of contrast, doctors in Ontario -- Canada's most populous province -- handle more than 11,000 cardiac procedures a year in 11 specialized cardiac centers, according to Kori Kingsbury, CEO of Ontario's Cardiac Care Network.

It's one of the places a Newfoundland patient might go if appropriate care wasn't available in that province, but Kingsbury said most of those 11,000-odd procedures are, in fact, performed on Ontario residents.

Still, a "handful" of Ontario patients go to the U.S. every year for surgery, usually because they need emergency treatment and live close to the border, she told MedPage Today.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:55 pm

My bad. It was neither the former governor general, the gorgeous Head of State that knocked my socks off every time I saw and/or hear her, the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean, nor the current governor general, the Right Honourable David Johnston.

At least you got that right. The woman is drop-dead gorgeous. She even knocked MY socks off.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:56 pm

weltschmerz wrote:

In fact, given the fact that I’m going from memory:


1.It could have been the governor of Quebec;

2.It could have been the governor of Ontario;

3.It could have been the premier of Quebec;

4.It could have been the premier of Ontario.


In any case, it was one of the two highest government officials of one of the two most populous provinces of Canada.
I love how you pay attention to "facts". It was Danny Williams, the premier of Newfoundland. Newfoundland is hardly considered one of our most populous provinces.

I have an aversion to how you play one-upmanship, but I enjoy how your one-upmanship has prodded you into providing the facts that (1) I was unable to precisely recall, and (2) I was unable to dig up on the Internet. The enjoyment comes because I suspected that your desire to correct me would motivate you to provide me with information, facts, that I wish to know precisely.

Thank you.

weltschmerz wrote:
The New York Post, for instance, in an article headlined "Oh (no), Canada" used the news to take a whack at healthcare reform in the U.S. And the American Thinker blog -- among many others -- argued that Williams' choice is evidence of the inferiority of Canada's "technologically second-rate and rationed system."

I’ve no interest in The New York Post’s “take” on anything. If I’m going to invest time in reading a Ne York newspaper, it will be an actual newspaper, The New York Times. Similarly, I’ve no interest in The American Thinker blog.

What I do know is that either a governor or premier of a Canadian province chose an American facility rather than a Canadian facility for his own health needs. And thanks to you, I now have a name, Danny Williams, the premier of Newfoundland, and a specific “job title”, Premier of Newfoundland.

Once again, thank you for aiding m in my quest to pay meticulous attention to facts, in spite of your probable reason for doing so.

weltschmerz wrote:
In Canada, cardiac specialists defended the premier's decision as a matter of choice and at the same time noted that -- with few exceptions -- most cardiac procedures are both available and done well in Canada.

Yet the premier of Newfoundland, Danny Williams (thank you again for these facts), chose American rather than Canadian health care. If Canadian health care is excellent (which I believe to be true), then American health care must be just that more excellent.

weltschmerz wrote:
On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

By way of contrast, doctors in Ontario -- Canada's most populous province -- handle more than 11,000 cardiac procedures a year in 11 specialized cardiac centers, according to Kori Kingsbury, CEO of Ontario's Cardiac Care Network.

It's one of the places a Newfoundland patient might go if appropriate care wasn't available in that province, but Kingsbury said most of those 11,000-odd procedures are, in fact, performed on Ontario residents.

Yet Premier Danny Williams chose American health care rather than another province’s health care. Actions speak loudly.

weltschmerz wrote:
Still, a "handful" of Ontario patients go to the U.S. every year for surgery, usually because they need emergency treatment and live close to the border, she told MedPage Today.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

Danny Williams most likely lives in Newfoundland, a “fu piece” from the U.S. border. I suspect that Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Quebec are closer. Yet Danny Williams chose American health care.

Danny voted with his “feet” when it concerned his own life.

Now if we’re through with one-upmanship, I’ll share with you the core purpose of my three statements, one of which you’ve corrected, concerning patients in First World countries, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Canada, who chose American health care when their lives depended upon medical excellence.

American health care is superb; if it were not, I wouldn’t be alive. As I was pointing out to Astra in the post referenced by you, the excellent health care I receive cost damned near two arms, one leg, and the big toe off of the end of the remaining leg to pay for maintaining the good health of the body to which these parts are attached. Health care in America USV (United States Variety, in deference to the fact that Canadians are also Americans, and I pay attention to facts) ain’t broke, but health care insurance in America is broke like hell. Danny Boy has an advantage over me; he has health care insurance and he still has his arms, both legs, and both big toes.

I’m pretty much sure that certain provision of the health care reform law will be stricken, as the US Constitution delegates to Congress no power to mandate interstate commerce. If interstate commerce exists, Congress can regulate it, but Congress can neither create interstate commerce nor compel anyone to participate in interstate commerce.

That being said, and wait on the Supreme Court decision pertaining thereto, President Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. has succeeded in putting health care insurance in America USV “on the table” for close examination, an excellent example of astute and adept use of the “bully pulpit”, a skill well-practiced by, in reverse chronological order, Ronald Reagan (“Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”), John Fitzgerald Kennedy (“Ich bin ein Berliner!”), and Franklin Delano Roosevelt (“We have nothing to fear but fear itself”), but which has lain “untended to” through much of the second half of the 20th Century and the first eight years of the 21st Century. No matter the Supreme Court’s decision, I doubt if Americans USV will ever return to our previous attitude of benign neglect towards health care insurance.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:19 pm

I abhor how you play one-upmanship, but I enjoy how your one-upmanship has prodded you into providing the facts that (1) I was unable to precisely recall, and (2) I was unable to dig up on the Internet. The enjoyment comes because I suspected that your desire to correct me would motivate you to provide me with information, facts, that I wish to know precisely.
Whether you abhor my posts or not is none of my concern. However, if you're going to post "facts" about Canada, it would behoove you to get them right, especially in light of your claim that you always pay attention to detail.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:49 pm

Yet the premier of Newfoundland, Danny Williams (thank you again for these facts), chose American rather than Canadian health care. If Canadian health care is excellent (which I believe to be true), then American health care must be just that more excellent.

The issue with the American health care system (ranked 38th by WHO) is not its excellence but its accessibility. It is grossly over-priced, the administrative side is bloated and inefficient (which is why medical billing coders are always in such high demand), we still use a lot of paper within the system (thanks to privacy nuts), and private insurance is a nightmare. Recent polling data shows that the majority of Americans are more worried about paying for their treatment than they are about the illness itself! It's pretty pathetic when the first thought that crosses your mind after being diagnosed with a serious condition is: How am I going to pay for it? How will it affect my family? Will I lose my home? Never mind questions like: Will I die? Will it reduce the quality of my life? Will it hurt? Will I lose the ability to work? Nope ... it's all about the effing money.

Just because some Canadian official came to the US for treatment doesn't mean a thing - sure, the US has some of the best doctors in the world, but only because they get paid $400k per year whereas in other nations they might be paid $100k. But who really cares? It's not like these doctors are accessible to anyone but the rich. These doctors may as well be on the moon.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:11 pm

weltschmerz wrote:

I abhor how you play one-upmanship, but I enjoy how your one-upmanship has prodded you into providing the facts that (1) I was unable to precisely recall, and (2) I was unable to dig up on the Internet. The enjoyment comes because I suspected that your desire to correct me would motivate you to provide me with information, facts, that I wish to know precisely.
Whether you abhor my posts or not…

I did not say I abhor your posts. I said “I abhor how you play one-upmanship”, a bit more intense than “I have an aversion to how you play one-upmanship”, the edited, more accurate rendition.

weltschmerz wrote:
However, if you're going to post "facts" about Canada, it would behoove you to get them right…

If I’m going to post facts about Canada, “it would behoove [me] to” continue to do what I do.

weltschmerz wrote:
especially in light of your claim that you always pay attention to detail.

That’s why I do what I do. If you’re done with what you ‘re doing, perhaps you might comment on the factual content of my post, including the fact that a Canadian premier chose American health care rather than the more geographically accessible Canadian health care available in neighboring provinces.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:53 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Yet the premier of Newfoundland, Danny Williams (thank you again for these facts), chose American rather than Canadian health care. If Canadian health care is excellent (which I believe to be true), then American health care must be just that more excellent.
Shirina wrote:
The issue with the American health care system (ranked 38th by WHO) is not its excellence but its accessibility.

Thus, the issue is health care insurance, the primary access method, rather than health care. It’s important to know what’s broke in order to fix what’s broke.

Shirina wrote:
It is grossly over-priced…

Yeah, buddy!

Sorry for the occasional typo, by the way; it’s kinda hard typing with your foot when you’re missing your big toe.

Shirina wrote:
… the administrative side is bloated…

Ya think?

Sitting in my gastro-intestinal doc’s office, and he tells the story about how my medical insurance company, the one for which I auctioned off both arms, one leg, and the big toe off of the remaining foot, to “pay the freight”, told him that the medication he prescribed for his patient was “inappropriate.”

He told the bean-counter where to get off (nicely). Between counting pennies, that fine fellow, who had never smelled the inside of a medical school, then connected my doc with the insurance company’s medical consultant, the sage who had advised that my doc’s prescription was “inappropriate.”

Here’s the punch line: My doc says to me, “The consultant was a retired dermatologist!” If I’m lying, I’m flying.

Shirina wrote:


… and inefficient…

Efficiency would significantly increase if bean-counters and their retired dermatologist consultants would “get out the way, damnit!”

Shirina wrote:
… private insurance is a nightmare.

I live the nightmare regularly.

Shirina wrote:
… the majority of Americans are more worried about paying for their treatment than they are about the illness itself!

Gotta know what’s broke to fix it.

Shirina wrote:
Just because some Canadian official came to the US for treatment doesn't mean a thing

It does in fact mean something, and something significant. It means that Premier Danny Williams, the Newfoundlander who sought treatment in the United States, due to his emancipation from “out of pocket” medical expenses, courtesy of Canada’s excellent health care insurance, is free to seek the best possible medical care, regardless of costs.

Danny Boy can afford in my country what I cannot afford in my country. He’s got excellent health care insurance; I’ve got bean counters who consult with retired dermatologists.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:41 pm

Like all patients, Mr. Williams wanted the best surgery available – meaning prompt treatment and a good outcome, with minimal complications and a relatively easy recovery.

He was offered the standard treatment for his condition, mitral valve repair. The surgery requires that the breastbone be cracked. which suggests longer recovery time.

Mr. Williams, wisely, sought a second opinion. Every surgery patient should.

The Premier was told the mitral valve could also be repaired with minimally invasive surgery – with smaller incisions and no cracking of the chest, suggesting less recovery time.

Up to that point, Mr. Williams did his homework relatively well. But then his decision-making went off the rails.

He contacted Lynn McGrath, a Memorial University alumnus who is a cardiovascular surgeon in New Jersey.

Dr. McGrath recommended a surgeon at Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami who does minimally invasive surgery, Joseph Lamelas.

While these men are excellent health-care practitioners, they know little about Canada’s health system.

Had Mr. Williams asked his questions of the right people, he would have learned what procedures are offered in Canada, and that cardiovascular outcomes in this country are as good as in the U.S., and often better.

The surgery that Mr. Williams wanted and was medically appropriate was not available in St. John’s, but is available in at least seven Canadian cities
.

(And let’s dismiss quickly the suggestion that every procedure should be offered in small centres like St. John’s. In surgery, high volumes translate into better quality and safety, so it is wise to bring patients to central locations.)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/williamss-heart-surgery-choice-was-based-on-ignorance/article1480937/

Evidently, Mr Williams didn't do his homework, but time was of the essence.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:48 pm


Where and when did Premier Danny Williams receive the needed surgery?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:08 am

The enjoyment comes because I suspected that your desire to correct me would motivate you to provide me with information, facts, that I wish to know precisely.

I'm not in the mood to be prodded or motivated to provide you with that information. If you have a burning desire to know where he had the surgery, look it up yourself.

(It wasn't Detroit)
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:22 am

weltschmerz wrote:
I'm not in the mood to be prodded or motivated to provide you with that information.

I’m not “in the mood” to play one-upmanship.

weltschmerz wrote:
If you have a burning desire to know where he had the surgery, look it up yourself.

I have (1) “a burning desire” to seek and acquire knowledge, and (2) “a burning desire” to avoid contests of one-upmanship.

weltschmerz wrote:
(It wasn't Detroit)

That’s not an answer to either of my questions. If and when you’ve an answer to either of my questions, I welcome your input.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by weltschmerz on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:36 am

Sure, you've made mistake after mistake, and if I set the record straight, you accuse me of some sort of one-upmanship, instead of admitting you were wrong. I strongly suspect that it's your modus operandi. The only thing you got correct was that Michaelle Jean is a beautiful woman.

Look it up yourself, instead of manipulating or prodding me to do it for you.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Ivan on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:45 am

Michaelle Jean is a beautiful woman
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Ivan on Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:16 am

An extract from an article by Suzanne Moore:-

"In the USA, people are living in tents or underground in drains. These ugly people, with ulcers, hernias and bad teeth, are the flipside of the American dream. Trees twist through abandoned civic buildings and factories, while the Republican candidates, an ID parade of Grecian 2000 suspects, bang on about tax cuts for the 1% who own a fifth of America's wealth. To see the Grapes of Wrath recast among post-apocalyptic cityscapes is scary. Huge cognitive dissonance is required to cheerlead for the rich while 47 million citizens live in conditions close to those in the developing world."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/16/suzanne-moore-disgusted-by-poor

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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:48 am


Ivan,

In every story worth its salt, we find "who", "what", "when", "where", "how", and "why." Does Suzanne Moore address "why?"

Or, more personally, does she differentiate between those who are "ptochos" and those who are "penes?"

A specific example of the importance of this differentiation follows.

A young man who was my non-genetic brother held a Masters degree in Engineering Management from a prestigious school of engineering attached to a prestigious university. He was project manager of a Hughes Aircraft system (classified) contracted by the United States Department of Defense. He owned a condominium, three bedroom two bath, “on the Westside” (figuratively and literally), a fairly pricey sports sedan that we called “The Batmobile”, and was “on his way.” He was about 27-28 at the time.

One year later, literally, he was jobless, carless, and homeless. Everything he owned was either on his back or in a couple of pillowcases he was using as carry-around storage. What happened? Coke, more specifically, lots and lots of coke, not crack, mind you, but the powdered stuff, the form that a California Department of Education approved high school health text, copyright circa 1981, labeled as “non-addictive.”

I’ve compassion but neither sympathy nor empathy for those who, like my brother, have chosen to be jobless, carless, homeless, and dammed near clothes-less.

One was in Calcutta for several months, another was in a small town near Mumbai for several days, and each reported jobless, carless, homeless, and just about clothes-less people who’ve never had a choice. It is with these that my empathy and sympathy lay, and to whom, hopefully, my sporadic and meager donations go.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:32 am

How do the top 1% of earners get so much more publicity than the other 99?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by Shirina on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:38 pm

I’ve compassion but neither sympathy nor empathy for those who, like my brother, have chosen to be jobless, carless, homeless, and dammed near clothes-less.
You've just demonstrated the very same propaganda that the right-wing media machine throws out to the public for them to chew on. Most people are compassionate people, and the right-wingers looking after the top 1% have always needed a mechanism whereby the compassion of the ordinary person is somehow circumvented. Viola! The way to do this, then, is to convince the public that the poor and destitute are there by their own choice. Thus began the systematic dismantling of human compassion by drumming it into our heads that the condition of poverty is entirely preventable - just get up off your lazy butt, pull yourself up by those ever-present and thoroughly proverbial bootstraps, and just get a job! If you want proof that the poor are all lazy, drug-addled, and shiftless, we'll hold up some anecdotal stories - like your brother - and paint everyone with that brush.

And it's working. Because it's super-easy to sit in a comfortable house with your steady, well-paying job, and narrow your suspicious eyes at the plight of others. Thus when people march to the polling stations to vote for a conservative Republican looking to make the rich even richer, a person's conscience can be at ease knowing that the poor brought it all upon themselves. It's their fault, after all! Yes, yes, if it wasn't for their drugs and alcohol, they'd all be successful! *votes for conservative Republican*. After all, I have a good job, so why don't they?!

And thus you artificially create the mentality of blaming the victim. What's predictable, of course, is the NIMBY factor. I have asked business owners all over the internet - would YOU hire a person who has been sitting on welfare for the past 5 years? Would YOU hire a person who has a "colored" past involving substance abuse or perhaps minor criminal offenses (vagrancy and the like)? Would YOU ignore well-qualified applicants to give a former deadbeat a chance? Oh my, the back-peddling would be humorous if the stakes weren't so high. The problem, then, does not only lie with the poor - it also lies with the employer who simply will not hire the very same people they want to find a job. Go figure, right?

The bottom line, of course, is this: Whenever someone talks about the plight of the poor, the unemployed, and the needy, the very first response is one similar to Rock's. Someone ALWAYS has to give a counterpoint. "Well, what about the druggies? What about the lazy? What about the alcoholics?"

Well ... what about them? Sure, they exist. No one is saying they don't. Yet I find this focus on these people a mighty fine example of how one tap dances around the issue. It is a proven fact now, based on 2010 census data, that almost 50% of Americans are either in poverty or considered low income. Does that mean half of Americans are lazy drug addicts? The numbers of the poor are FAR too large now for the standard right-wing arguments to hold true - not that they were ever true to begin with.

When an article is produced that addresses our problems (such as Suzanne Moore's) it needs to be tackled head-on and not deflected with "buts" and anecdotes, the exceptions that disprove the rules. Bringing up people who screwed up their own lives sounds like denial to me, a denial that a much larger problem exists. It sounds like the kind of excuses an alcoholic gives his family. I know, my father was an alcoholic. If you confront the alcoholic on being drunk 6 of the past 7 days, the first thing he'll say is, "But I wasn't drunk on the 7th day!" As if that makes everything okay. Therefore, saying your brother wrecked his life with drugs does not, in any way, diminish or eliminate the over-arcing problem of increasing poverty in this country. During a time when the American Dream is beyond the hope of half the population, going to bat for the rich almost seems ludicrous ... what do they need that they don't already have? More money? More power? More influence? Are we willing to give them the shirts off our backs so that they can have it?
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:20 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
I’ve compassion but neither sympathy nor empathy for those who, like my brother, have chosen to be jobless, carless, homeless, and dammed near clothes-less.
Shirina wrote:
You've just demonstrated the very same propaganda that the right-wing media machine throws out to the public for them to chew on.

No, I am not. I’m speaking truth about my brother, a real person, not a propaganda symbol, who lost his career that earned substantially more than one hundred thousand dollars per year in 2012 US dollars, his condo that would be valued at half a million dollars in in 2012 US dollars even with the downslide in housing prices, his car that would cost more than forty thousand dollars in 2012 US dollars, and his fiancé’s car that would cost over thirty thousand dollars in 2012 dollars, that ended up a calendar year later living on the streets of Los Angeles with two pillow cases containing all of his possessions beyond the clothes he was wearing propped inside the front door of another brother’ house.

I never speak of people that others use as propaganda symbols. This young man is my brother. I mourned for him then, and I am mildly happy for him now, or the last I knew, which was that, as on 2010, he was back in the home of his childhood, with a job of some sort, and clean and sober through faithful adherence to the Narcotics Anonymous program. But that happiness is muted by knowledge of where he was going. By now, he should be a senior engineer, among the brain trust at a company developing secret weapons for DARPA rather than working for minimum wage plus a few dollars and living in the home of his childhood.

Add more than forty thousand and more than thirty thousand and you get more than seventy thousand dollars, meaning that he sniffed more than seventy thousand 2012 US dollars worth of coke up his nose within a year.
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Re: Bachmann tells man with 'no teeth' to rely on charity

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:23 pm

à chacun son goût.
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