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Locked up in the USA

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Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:05 pm

This post could be put into another thread but I think this is the right one....

There is currently a British Businessman being held in jail in the USA for the alleged crime of selling batteries, which could be used in missiles, to Iran.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/05/christopher-tappin-extradited-bail-decision_n_1320264.html?ref=uk

He is currently being locked in his cell for 23 hours out of every 24 with the light kept on fall the time, when out of his cell he has one arm and leg shackled with one arm free to enable him to use his walking stick.....

The US prosicuter is opposing bail on the ground that this 65year old may be a 'danger to the community'....

It should be remembered that once he had lost his extradition case he surrendered himself to US Marshalls at Heathrow Airport....

On one of the morning new programms, last week, one of the Nat West Four talked about this treatment and said it was normal as the US Justice dept liked to soften up the accused to make them or will to take a plea bargain which of course means they do not have to present the 'full' evidence they have. They regularly tell the accused that if they don't take the deal they will never be able to leave the USA........

It would seem that Britain readly extradites UK citizens to the US but the US fights tooth and nail against it's citizens being sent abroad to be tried.....
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astra on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:14 pm

I cannot remember which administration allowed this farcical situation to arise (ie Lab or Con) but it was attested at the time that this is what would happen.

The negotiators on our side did not demand "Repricrosity" which more or less means that the US Marshalls can demand anyone they want.

There are plenty more IRA, Al Qieda terrorists in this country, don't see them shouting for them! (How many IRA terrorists do they shelter right now?)

One "cleric" comes to mind! If they were so determined about the war aginst terror they would have bagged him up long ago!
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:18 pm

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astra on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:39 pm

Well thanx pal!


If us bad Brits treated an American businessman the same way, Nimitz and Ronald Reagan would be sailing up the Thames!
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:10 pm

The list of American Citizens extradited to face any charges in a foreign court anywhere in the World is a very short list.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:08 pm

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:23 pm

US court agree 65 yearold a 'Danger to the Community' and refuse bail......

They claim that it's the infromation he knows that makes him a danger....

Now I remember there is/was a thread on this site in which it was claimed that the US Justice system dealt fairly with applications for bail and that only those who presented a clear and immediate danger would be prevented form being granted bail.

But this and the case of the former head of the World Bank show that if you are not a US citizen you will have to stay in jail...........
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:03 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:51 pm

Someone posted the following on a thread about bail........

Bail has nothing whatsoever to do with the crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

Bail is calculated upon (1) the likelihood that the person will show up in court on court day, and (2) the likelihood that the person will not be a danger to anyone if the person remains out of physical custody.

How can a 65yearold who has surrended his passport, walks with a stick and of limited finacial means be considered a flight risk?......If we take it that he is not a physical danger to the community.....

The reality is if you are not a US citizen then you will not get fair treatment if arrested in the USA...... and you will get no support from the current British Government.....
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by witchfinder on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:07 pm

Several observations from someone ( me ) who is as yet, open minded on this particular issue.

Yes - we all know that justice US style is not the same as justice British or European style, the American penal and justice systems are quite inhuman, indeed some would say barbaric.

There is a saying "theres no smoke without fire" and lets be honest here, this man did attempt to sell electronic parts to Iran which could have been used in missile manufacture, did Mr Tapping know what these parts were capable of been used for ? and did he realise he was breaking the law. ?

Only time will tell


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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:19 pm

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:21 pm

witchfinder wrote:
… the American penal and justice systems are quite inhuman…

No, they are not.

witchfinder wrote:
… the American penal and justice systems are… barbaric.

No, they are not.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:35 pm

The British Extradition Act 2003 dispenses with the need for a prima facie case for extradition. Thanks, Tony.




http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/police/operational-policing/extradition-act-2003
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:57 pm

witchfinder wrote:
… the American penal and justice systems are quite inhuman…

Roc wrote:

No, they are not.

Oh yes they are.......

witchfinder wrote:
… the American penal and justice systems are… barbaric.


Roc wrote:
......No, they are not.


Oh yes they are.....



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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:12 pm

He's behind you .......
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:48 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:19 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by witchfinder on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:08 pm

RockOnBrother

The US method of shackling people up in chains is a method long gone over here, most British people find the idea of chaining a 60 year old disabled man up not only inhumane, but also quite ridiculous, yes - even though he could be guilty of a crime.

There is a the case of a British man who was sentenced to death in the United States a few years ago, on the morning of his execution he was taken to the chamber where he was shaved and prepared for electricution.
At the last minute another reprieve arrived, he was taken back to his cell, now I dont care what crime this man committed, this was state torture and is not acceptable in any civilised society.

We dont detain people indefinately without trial in Europe, what happens at Guantanamo could never happen over here, and its nothing to be proud of, infact it makes a mockery of the phrase "land of the free".

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:26 pm

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Shirina on Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:10 pm

Yes - we all know that justice US style is not the same as justice British or European style, the American penal and justice systems are quite inhuman, indeed some would say barbaric.
For some folks it is quite obvious that everything an American does is somehow wrong compared to the way Brits do things. Such is the way of national and cultural rivalries, which, I might add, has more to do with this argument than any real "barbarism" inflicted upon American prisoners. Oh, did I say American prisoners? I meant to say British prisoners in American custody. Silly me to confuse the two since, if this had been an American criminal, the idea of being shackled in chains would not have even been an issue.

It would seem to some Brits, Americans ought to sentence their criminals to 20 years of living in a luxurious mansion in Beverley Hills. Oh wait, I did it again, didn't I. *cough* What I meant to say is that British criminals in America should be sentenced to 20 years of living in a luxurious mansion in Beverley Hills. If the criminal is American, shackle away!

This is all about nationalism, not a "barbaric" penal system.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Intersting jump has been made here.....Some seem to think we are commenting on a prison sentence for a convicted criminal

Tapping is being held, on what we British call REMAND, i.e. he still has to stand trial......

He is being denied bail on the grounds that he is a 'Danger to the Community' even though the crime he has been charged with had no violence in volved......

Has he has not yet been tried he is still being shackled arm and foot, he is being kept in a cell with the lights on 24hours a day.....he is only allowed out of his cell for 1 hour a day.......His son has said that tappin is not even allowed read books......

Sounds alot like the treatment being dished out at Guantanamo to me.......even down to the orange suites....
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:33 pm

The Frenchman accused of sexually molesting a Hotel chambermaid in New York was paraded for the Press in CHAINS long before there could have been any substantiation of Guilt.

That's barbaric.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Shirina on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:47 pm

A British prison cell:

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:54 pm

If you wish to discuss Christopher Tappin at some point in time, particularly the threat to innocent human souls that ground to air missiles provided to terrorists by illegal arms dealers pose, let me know. I look forward to hearing to your views on the threat to civilian air traffic posed by these weapons in the hands of terrorists, and what should happen to those who, for a profit, provide such weaponry to terrorists.

Where is the positive proof that Iran's air defences are in the hands of terrorist?

It is more likely that anti-aircrft weapons from Libya, since the fall of Gaddaffi, will find their way to terrorists.....

Roc, do you believe that Iran does not have the right to air defence? After all it was one President Reagan who allowed the sale of these missiles to Iran and that was after the Iranians had stormed the US embassy and taken hostages in the first place.........

Who is worse the ones who sell the weapons to terrorists or those who provide the funds?


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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Mel on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Hello Rockonbrother.

Without being seen to be stiring the pot here, is there some truth in this---?

The president of the Kent Golf Union, who faces up to 35 years in jail if convicted, was escorted into the courtroom on Friday wearing an orange-red prison jumpsuit, with his feet and one hand shackled.



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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astra on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:59 pm

half the iranian airforce is of American origin. Why so shirty all of a sudden?

[url=Iran Airforce, recently taken]Iran Airforce, recently taken[/url]
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astra on Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:12 pm

in the picture, not necessarily in order, Northrop F-15, Grumman F-14 and Mc Donnell Douglas F4E Phantom.
If you search through the site named at the bottom of the photo, you will find all these types being flown now! Add to the list, Northrop F5E.



these pics, don't know how I got 2, are in the public domain!


When faced with the above, I see a great difference between a fully airworthy jet and a bloomin' battery!



(no matter how 'old' a fighter aircraft is, if you are standing unarmed, a Sopwith Pup in the right hands will chop you to bits!)


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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by witchfinder on Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:05 pm

There are many aspects of American life and culture that are better and superior to the British way of life, to deny such would be foolish.

But it terms of been a progressive forward thinking nation, the US has always been a follower and not a leader.

Whether it be abolition of slavery, gay rights, penal reform, womens rights or justice - the Americans have alway played the game of catching up with the rest of us.

I am afraid that you may attempt to try and justify shackling a 60 year old disabled man in chains, but you simply cannot, as per usual these are methods long gone in the rest of the civilised world.



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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:15 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:50 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:10 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:07 am

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Shirina on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:37 am

half the iranian airforce is of American origin. Why so shirty all of a sudden?
Any and all US aircraft being flown by the Iranian air force were sold to Iran while the pro-American Shah was in power. America was not selling aircraft to Ayatollah Khomeini. In fact, all weapons slated to be sent to Iran were immediately cancelled once Khomeini seized power - including 4 state-of-the-art guided missile destroyers that were actually improved versions of the Spruance class. The American Navy took possession of these four ships and sailed them itself under the Kidd class.
Nope. Foreground looks like maybe a modified F-5, never a front line US fighter.
The camouflaged aircraft is definitely an F-5. The foreground aircraft in blue with the unusual twin stabilizer is probably an F-20 Tigershark, but it's impossible to tell without a better view of the wings. Neither aircraft were ever used outside of training by the USN or the USAF. Incidentally, note not one of those aircraft in the picture is carrying a missile. This is because the electronics in those aircraft are designed to launch American-made missiles. Since we haven't sold Iran any air-to-air missiles in 30 years, they most likely have none to put on their planes. Those are most likely trainers.
The president of the Kent Golf Union, who faces up to 35 years in jail if convicted, was escorted into the courtroom on Friday wearing an orange-red prison jumpsuit, with his feet and one hand shackled.
There have been plenty of courtroom fights with defendants leaping over tables, punching their attorneys, judges and clerks hiding under tables, bailiffs tackling defendants, etc. to warrant all criminals to be shackled. If you shackle some but not others, then there is no equality. Thus even violent criminals would be justified in asking why they are being shackled while others are not. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
But it terms of been a progressive forward thinking nation, the US has always been a follower and not a leader.
Yeah, that's why when the rest of Europe was being ruled by autocratic monarchs, America was the first nation since Rome to adopt a republic.
gay rights
Where in Britain is gay marriage recognized? In America, gays can be legally married in Washington, Oregon, California, Iowa, New York, Washington DC, Massachusetts, and soon, Maryland. Other states will most likely follow suit.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:29 am

Shirina wrote,
There have been plenty of courtroom fights with defendants leaping over tables, punching their attorneys, judges and clerks hiding under tables, bailiffs tackling defendants, etc. to warrant all criminals to be shackled. If you shackle some but not others, then there is no equality. Thus even violent criminals would be justified in asking why they are being shackled while others are not. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Ha yes, I well remember Jackson being brought to court in orange jump suit and shackles for his child abuse trial.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:36 am

I wonder if presenting the Accused in Court dressed in orange jump suit and shackles might affect the way impressionable Jurors feel about the matter?
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astra on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:43 pm

Rock, I am aware that you Americans no longer use the Phantom.

I am aware that if they stray out of their property, they will have to fight to be able to return home!

I am aware that the F5 is a trainer - designed AFTER the Shah's time

A trainer gets you onto other things, and Iran has tastier meat than Phantoms to dish up.

You own senator McCain is demanding you send ground troops into the area - he seems to like tha idea of troops going walkies!, and yes I am aware that Cruise missiles would sort the Iran Airforce out on the first morning - at about 3am all of the iranian airforce, that is not the point was making. Trainers get you to faster and heavier things
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:13 pm

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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astra on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:37 pm

I repose corrected Sad
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by astradt1 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:05 pm

Nice to see that at least on Judge on here has already seen all the evidence heard all the arguments and is now just waiting to pass sentance........on the British illegal arms dealer............
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Re: Locked up in the USA

Post by Scarecrow on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:20 pm

The awkward fact is that the US, though it shares our own common-law heritage, has a much more punitive view of the legal system, one which is also marked by the rough justice known as plea bargaining – pleading guilty to a lesser charge in the hope of leniency – as well as violent and terrifying prisons. US states also retain capital punishment on a wide scale.
The Conservative Government, while in opposition, promised to reform the law and they failed to do so.
An independent review of the UK's extradition arrangements by retired Court of Appeal judge Sir Scott Baker last year found that the current treaty between the US and the UK was both balanced and fair.
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Re: Locked up in the USA

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