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The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

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The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

The credit crunch, a global crisis or not ?

This was the title of the longest running, active subject on the now discontinued MSN message boards, and when those boards were discontinued the thread was transferred to the newly created Cutting Edge board in March 2011.

OK so who will begin then ? ( Mark III )
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:09 am

witchfinder wrote:The Conservatives did not have a clue what to say or what to do when the banking crisis hit in 2008

Only a few days before the worst of the crisis hit accross the world, the Nobel prize committee awarded the prize in economics to professor Paul Krugman, this is what professor Krugman said as the crisis was gripping markets accross the world.

He went on: "Mr Brown and Alistair Darling, the chancellor of the Exchequer ... have defined the character of the worldwide rescue effort, with other wealthy nations playing catch-up."

He praised the British Government for having acted with "stunning speed" to address the financial crisis, again contrasting Mr Brown's efforts with those of Henry Paulson, the US Treasury Secretary.

"This combination of clarity and decisiveness hasn't been matched by any other Western government, least of all our own," he wrote.

Despite initially basing the US plan on buying up "toxic" mortgage debts, Mr Paulson has since suggested that he may follow Mr Brown in injecting money directly into the banks as fresh capital. Several European leaders are also expected to announce similar plans.

Luckily for the world economy, however, Gordon Brown and his officials are making sense," he added. "And they may have shown us the way through this crisis." [ END ]

And every time I hear Osborne, Cameron and yes, even Clegg saying how they inherited a defecit from the previous government, it makes my blood boil, when Gordon Brown took decisive action to rescue the country fron going down the pan, and when much of the rest of the western world followed - the Conservatives had nothing to say, they did not have a clue.

And looking at the state of the economy now, they still havent a clue


I could not agree more with you myself Witchfinder. I also happen to believe that what Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling did at the time of the World banking crisis was one of the most skillful acts of economic management I can remember seeing within my life time. you only need to look at the mess of the great depression of 1929 to see what could of happened to see this. The mental pressure on both of them must of been almost unbearable at the time. as not only did people wake up with still having a bank account but a roof over there heads and a plan the rest of the world could follow and understand. not a bad days work at all in my view.

yet today I hear many argument's being put forward by our friends on the Right who blame the Last government for weak regulation. yet when i ask them to show any world wide banking regulation that was put in place beforehand that stop what happened here in the UK or world wide. there is no reply at all? I wounder why? so what are they trying to tell us now? are they trying to say that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling should of had some great big insight in too all of this? or that he could act like some sort of Astrologer and see all this coming? if so then this is utter rubbish.

The other more interesting point is the right will not face up to the role they played in all of this? as this was a crisis that was made some 30 years ago and not in just 2008. I have yet to hear one Tory anywhere come on the TV or write in a newspaper and own up to Mrs Thatchers Deregulation lay at the root of this banking crash in 2008. for me this was the most irresponsible act in the history of the city of London. in fact i can still remember Mrs Thatcher tell the world that the UK would move away from what she called the outdated manufacturing industry to the new free market financial service sector and the 1980s big bang was the start of this great new dawn for the people of the UK. so by the time of Labour's 1997 General election win the Government had one of the most unbalanced economy's in the world. for me Labour's biggest mistake was to not stop this movement away from our core manufacturing industrial base and leave us with this unbalanced economy that hanged on just the financial service sector.

yet the seeds of what we face today are a direct result of Mrs Thatchers time economic bomb she left us. I have spent the last 30 years arguing that unless we move away from this obsession with the financial service sector and back into manufacturing industry a crash like 1929 or 2008 was always likely to happen. as this would lead to act of extreme greed by very few at the top. as the lessons that this would not happen are to be found in the 1929 crash.

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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:23 am

HERE IS THE ECONOMY BEFORE THE EURO CRISIS.

our growth figures are behind Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Spain, we are just holding our own with Greece and Portugal the very basket cases that are so mocked by Osborne and the Tory fan's going on about on here. However, there is Growth in overall Unemployment and benefit payments as we saw 12,400 new claimants in March. So the Coalitions borrowing more to pay for record levels of Unemployment just like was forecast by the OBR. The whole Coalition Gamble is based on cutting spending and increasing tax rates and hoping for growth. So far they have managed 0.5% growth in April 2011 making good on there lose of growth in 2010 of 0.5%. so have managed to go around in full circle in six months. This is the biggest and riskiest macroeconomic experiment undertaken by any advanced country in living memory. so far its just not coming off at all.

Growth Forecast downgraded for the forth time by (OBR in April 2011
Growth forecast in the Tory budget down for a 3rd time to 1.7% (Budget 2011
Growth forecast in the City as low as 1.2% 2011
GDP sluggish at just 0.5% for April 2011 (OBR)
GDP Contracted by 0.5% in the Q4 in 2010 (OBR)
GDP is 0.8% lower than in November 2010 (OBR)
GDP IS 0.2% lower than MARCH 2011 (OBR)
GDP April's figures have just clawed back last years 0.5% contraction in 2010 (OBR)
GDP is 1.1% lower than the OBR thought it would be in Sept 2010 (OBR)
Government Borrowing forecast up by £54 Billion (Budget 2011)
Government Borrowing topped the £10 billion by just Feb 2011 (OBR)
Government Borrowing to be £10 billion higher every year from 2012 (OBR)
Unemployment up to record 17 year high (ONS)
Unemployment record was set in 1981 at 2.6 million or 9.8% of the Workforce
Unemployment for woman rose for the 10th month in a row March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment increased by 20,000 the highest three month figure since Jan 1997 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 7.7% of economically active population March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment forecast in the budget set to rise to 8.1% in 2012 (Budget 2011)
Unemployment is now 2.46 million in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Claimants increased by 12,400 in March 2011 to April 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Woman Claimants increased by 9,300 to 474,400 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Men Claimants increased by 3,100 to 994,200 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment benefit payments up to 1980s levels (ONS)
Manufacturing was flat Feb 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing production out put 1.5% decline in April 2011 (ONS)
Industry account for just 17% of UK GDP (ONS)
Industrial production fell overall by 1.2% Feb 2011 (ONS)
Construction had dramatic fell by 4.4% in April 2011 (OBR)
Construction housing budget slashed in the budget 2011 by 60% (Budget red book)
UK Overseas Aid spending is now the Highest in Europe 2011
UK's Exposure to Greek default taken by UK Banks 75 Billion Euros 2011 (FPC) 2011
Regulatory Burdens on Employers being imposed in 2011/12 will cost £23 billion (British chambers of Commerce)
UK Vehicle Production 7.6% lower in April 2011 (ONS)
Inflation record set in 1981 at 11% (ONS)
Inflation up with forecasts of 4% to 5% (Budget 2011)
Inflation has rose as the UK plunged £12 billion into the red 2011 (ONS)
Inflation at 4.5% in April 2011 heading to the Bank of England's forecast
Real Incomes fell by 0.2% to the dark days of Thatchers 1981 Levels (ONS)
The Coalition set to rake in £4.5 Billion a year more in Tax than Gordon Brown did in 2009 (ONS)
Tax evaded each year is 23% Feb 2011 (HMCR)
Corporation tax unpaid cost the UK £16 Billion in 2010 (HMCR)
Factory gate prices rose 0.9% between February & March 2011 (ONS)
Factory gate prices rose at an annual rate of 5.3% in May 2011 (ONS)
Mortgage & Credit card debt will soar to £2,126 billion by 2015 (ONS)
Mortgage debt now accounts is around £21,000 per person April 2011 (ONS)
North sea Oil Tax up by £2 Billion for 2011, with HMCR taking 88% in Tax (ONS)
The Worst squeeze on living standards for 90 years
Consumer spending accounts for 65% of the UK economy April 2011 (OMS)
Consumer spending shows the biggest fell in total sales since the survey began in 1995 (KPMG)
Personal Spending shows it first drop in personal spending power since the Thatcher slump in 1980s (KMPG)
Petrol down by 1p with VAT up by 2% in the Budget 2011
Food Prices rose 7.4% in the biggest rise since 2009 (ONS)
CPI has put the cost of living double its target from 4% in Jan 2011 to 4.4% in April 2011
RPI has gone from 5.1% to 5.5% the highest since 1991 (ONS)

in fact in 1919 the national debt stood at 135% of UK GDP (Lord Skidelsky former Tory spokesman on the Economy in the Lords) he goes on to say, The truth is that its not the fear of government bankruptcy but governments determination to balance the books which lowers business confidence, by reducing expectations of employment, incomes, and orders. is he right?

Will the Murvyn King save the Coalition from themselves or will Osborne lead us all into a double dip economy crash? as he sings in his bath? as so far they don't even have a theory about how the economy will avoid a double dip crash.

or is there only plan to pray and buy time in the vain hope something will happen?
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by tlttf on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:37 am

At last a government that is willing to remove the banking risk from the retail saver. By separating the risk between the investment and retail banks, the banks will be allowed to fail if they choose to gamble. Considering the Tories are meant to be the bastard child of all things bankable, they're doing more to curb the excessives than the previous troughites.

Strangely like most ex ministers Mandelson (government employee) moved from a £200, 000 flat in 1997 and now lives in a £8,000,000 house now. Good wages for somebody that never had to take a risk. Doesn't it make you proud of how they look after the old boys!

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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by witchfinder on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:12 am

stox - the word "regulation" to Conservatives in this country and the United States is a dirty word, it belongs in the same category as "red tape" and "quangos", the ideology of Thatcherism and Reaganomics strongly advocates totaly free markets, profit or loss, survive or die, dog eat dog.

I continualy argue the case for the "social market economy", the system which has proved highly successful in Germany and Scandanavia, and which has provided a strong, well balanced economy with successful business aswell as good pensions and protections for workers.

The United States and the UK can only look at the German example with envy, strange that a Conservative leader leading a Conservative government puts as much emphasis on regulation and fairness as it does on supporting business and industry - the third way.

The Conservatives regard employment rights, industrial tribunals and rules governing safe or acceptable working environments as "uneccessary red tape", hence the rolling back of employment laws in favour of the bosses been able to do as they please without any come-back.

THere is a difference between German and French Conservatives and British Conservatives, our continental neighbours tend not to treat people as a mere commodity, they tend to treat them as humans.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:37 pm

tlttf wrote:At last a government that is willing to remove the banking risk from the retail saver. By separating the risk between the investment and retail banks, the banks will be allowed to fail if they choose to gamble. Considering the Tories are meant to be the bastard child of all things bankable, they're doing more to curb the excessives than the previous troughites.

Strangely like most ex ministers Mandelson (government employee) moved from a £200, 000 flat in 1997 and now lives in a £8,000,000 house now. Good wages for somebody that never had to take a risk. Doesn't it make you proud of how they look after the old boys!

When the Bank of England cut rates, it had the effect of boosting the profits of lenders - the banks and other financial institutions - rather than leading to sharp reductions in interest payments by borrowers. The other side of that coin is that Pensioners and other Savers have been robbed, literally, of millions of pounds since 2008.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by sickchip on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:11 pm

Let's see what'll happen to Joe Public if interest rates rise to 3/4/5 % ......does it bear thinking about? That's how much of a mess we're in.
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The credit crunch - should we be putting money under the mattress?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:54 pm

Nobody can be unaware of events in the Financial markets. Foreign Banks (which in the context includes British ones) are quietly removing what money they can from Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etcetera, just to be on the safe side. Long-term loans are not quite so easy to recall. The British Government has contingency plans to assist its citizens who live abroad, if necessary.

On the level of individuals, should anyone pull up the drawbridge? Are "Savings" safe anywhere? Is there any financial Institution anywhere that you think you can trust with your money just at the moment?
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:07 pm

Will cash be of any use?

Perhaps investing in stocks of wheat, potatoes, corn etc..... will be more beneficial at least we will have the abillity to operate a barter system with each other.

Might need a bigger shed for this.........
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Quote : " Is there any financial Institution anywhere that you think you can trust with your money just at the moment?"

One must have faith that the Pease Pottage Equitable Building Society and Corner Store are 'sound as a pound'... :affraid:
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:17 pm

A glimmer of light appears at the end of the tunnel. Or perhaps a finger in the dyke?
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:40 pm

oftenwrong wrote:A glimmer of light appears at the end of the tunnel. Or perhaps a finger in the dyke?

I think i must have landed on channel four by mistake? Shocked
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by True Blue on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:11 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Nobody can be unaware of events in the Financial markets. Foreign Banks (which in the context includes British ones) are quietly removing what money they can from Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etcetera, just to be on the safe side. Long-term loans are not quite so easy to recall. The British Government has contingency plans to assist its citizens who live abroad, if necessary.

On the level of individuals, should anyone pull up the drawbridge? Are "Savings" safe anywhere? Is there any financial Institution anywhere that you think you can trust with your money just at the moment?

I wouldn't trust UK financial institutions... collectively they carry more debt than any other first world nation. Perhaps the UK government is enforcing those austerity measures on its citizens so that it has scope to increase government debt via bailouts for those debt heavy financial corporations.



You may want to read the article from which the picture is sourced. Total British debt is at 950% of GDP. Shocked
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by witchfinder on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:25 pm

The data and statistics in the post by True Blue are very missleading, the figures as a percentage of GDP includes private held debt, which of course has nothing to do with the government or the state, it includes for example mortgages, credit card debt, bank loans and business loans, all borrowed money which no British government is either responsible for or accountable for.

A few facts worth pointing out here and remembering

As of September the public sector / government debt of the UK represented 62% of GDP

The equivelant public debt of Japan is 194% of GDP - Italy over 100% and the United States 75%

In the late 1940s the UK national debt was 180% of GDP

As a proportion of GDP, Britain’s national debt has been higher than it is now for 200 of the past 250 years. Read that sentence again. Check it on any graph by any historian. Since 1750, there have only been two brief 30-year periods when our debt has been lower than it is now.

The biggest liars about British debt are the current British government, at no time have our bond yields ( the interest which we pay on debt ) risen significantly over the past five years, including the period when the credit crunch / banking crisis and recession hit us.

Yes - we realy should address the deficit, but there is absolutely no need what so ever to get rid of the deficit as quickly as possible, there is no great urgency as George Osborne will have you believe, as far as the IMF are concerned - if there is a credible plan in place to bring the deficit under control then thats fine.

The plan of George Osborne has back fired, he has stunted growth which has set his political plans way off course, the defecit cannot now be cleared in the lifetime of this Parliament as originaly planned, he may as well have gone with Alistair Darlings plan to half the defecit in the lifetime of this Parliament, something which was achievable.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:34 pm

Quote : " The data and statistics in the post by True Blue are very missleading..."

Be fair. What is the purpose of any good Tory boy but to make a few misleading statements in support of the cause...? Very Happy
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:02 pm

Surely one would have to follow before one could be mislead?
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by bobby on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:18 pm

Sorry if I took so long in respoding KO but I've only just stopped laughing, geez you tories do have a great sence of humour.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by True Blue on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:31 pm

witchfinder wrote:The data and statistics in the post by True Blue are very missleading, the figures as a percentage of GDP includes private held debt, which of course has nothing to do with the government or the state, it includes for example mortgages, credit card debt, bank loans and business loans, all borrowed money which no British government is either responsible for or accountable for.

The data and statistics are not misleading... rather, they make it perfectly clear that government debt is quite manageable, yet there is Britain in the midst of austerity measures... Why?

Looking at the total debt of a nation compared to the Gross Domestic Product of same, gives an indication of the credit worthiness of that nation. Can they, as a nation, afford to repay debts?

Separating out the debt into the various sectors in which it occurs is also a very telling exercise... it shows that Britian's dominate industry, Finance, is more debt ridden than any other first world nation. That is very bad. That spells c-r-a-s-h.

The total debt of a nation has everything to do with governance. It allows them to plan for an affordable future and anticipate economic trends. That data, for example, is saying quite clearly that Britain can look forward to a further downturn in their economy and increased unemployment.

If nothing else... it explains your austerity now when government debt is so low... Britain's Government is preparing for an increase in the cash drought and may even need to bail out some of those financials... as well as increase its welfare obligations.

PS: I'm no tory... My politics is central pragmatism with a hefty dose of Libertarianism. In fact I'm best described as anti capitalist without resorting to stupid left wing control freak beliefs. Capitalism does not support Liberty... did you know...
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:52 am

True Blue wrote:
witchfinder wrote:The data and statistics in the post by True Blue are very missleading, the figures as a percentage of GDP includes private held debt, which of course has nothing to do with the government or the state, it includes for example mortgages, credit card debt, bank loans and business loans, all borrowed money which no British government is either responsible for or accountable for.

The data and statistics are not misleading... rather, they make it perfectly clear that government debt is quite manageable, yet there is Britain in the midst of austerity measures... Why?

Looking at the total debt of a nation compared to the Gross Domestic Product of same, gives an indication of the credit worthiness of that nation. Can they, as a nation, afford to repay debts?

Separating out the debt into the various sectors in which it occurs is also a very telling exercise... it shows that Britian's dominate industry, Finance, is more debt ridden than any other first world nation. That is very bad. That spells c-r-a-s-h.

The total debt of a nation has everything to do with governance. It allows them to plan for an affordable future and anticipate economic trends. That data, for example, is saying quite clearly that Britain can look forward to a further downturn in their economy and increased unemployment.

If nothing else... it explains your austerity now when government debt is so low... Britain's Government is preparing for an increase in the cash drought and may even need to bail out some of those financials... as well as increase its welfare obligations.

PS: I'm no tory... My politics is central pragmatism with a hefty dose of Libertarianism. In fact I'm best described as anti capitalist without resorting to stupid left wing control freak beliefs. Capitalism does not support Liberty... did you know...



I have come to even believe they have no real economic or fiscal policy at all.

So this was the Government who bragged they would go into the next General Election with the books balanced. while taunting Alistair Darling for saying he would need to make £30 billion cuts. while Tories shouted out asking what Hospitals and schools would he close? what benefits and Jobs will he cut. my, my how times have change. as here we are in just 2011 and only 2 years into the banal government with Gideon blaming everything from Snow to high oil prices even before the eurozone crisis. in fact anything will do to blame as long as its not down too Gideon. as here was Gideon taking office with a small economic recovery: only to now see Gideon facing his 2nd recession within just two years.

So what did we find out? yep we found out there economically bankrupt

BORROWING AT NEW BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS WHILE GROWTH AT A RECORD LOW AND INFLATION AT A HIGH AND UNEMPLOYMENT RUNNING AWAY. but that its not down to Gideon. o know its down to everyone else.

BUDGET 2010 BORROWING TO 2011.
2010/11 borrowing was to be £122 Billion. but ended up at £127 Billion
2011/12 Forecast was £101 billion but will now be £120 billion
2012/13 Forecast was £70 billion but will now be £100 billion
Total Borrowing Gideon said in 2010 would be £299 billion but will now be £347 billion
that's if he can stop dipping into more borrowing in the meantime?
WHO IS BORROWING AND OVERSPENDING? THE TORY PARTY IS

So what have the Tory lead Government spent from 2009 to 2011? £758.7 billion
HM Treasury, OBR Source

So Unemployment must be getting better? as its the Tory party in charge. So how big will Gideon's Unemployed Army get?

Unemployment UP from the 2010 forecast from 7.9% to 8.1% 2011
Unemployment Up from the 2011 forecast to 8.7% in 2012
Unemployment small drop in 2013 to 8.6%
HM Treasury, OBR Scoure

Gideon tells us this will all happen and if it goes wrong it will all be down to the Euro. nothing to do with him at all.

A drop in everyones disposable incomes up from 7% to 8% the worst fall in disposable incomes since the 1970s. still Gideon did not look worried about this at all. but then he himself can afford it. just hope everyone else can?

So What's left of plan A That has become plan A plus a 8 % fall.

(1) To hack to bits the public sector and then sit on his hand a wait for the private sector to take up the slack TORY FAILURE
(2) TO cut fast and Deep in a re-run of there failed policies of 1980s, as this was their only stimulus they could think of at the time. yet this statement has been shown by the OBR to do nothing of the sort. (from there own figures) TORY FAILURE
(3) TO end reckless borrowing and overpending. only to borrow an extra £122 Billion and overspend by £111 Billion TORY FAILURE
(4) TO end QE. only to end up begging the bank of England to do some more QE £75 Billion TORY FAILURE


[/b]
SO PLAN A WAS SUCH A GREAT SUCCESSES, AS BONDS ARE CHEAPER, SO GIDEON CAN BORROW EVEN MORE. O YIPEEEE
Still I am 100% sure that the Tory fan club will narrate all there old jargon, as the plough on with there only meaningless mythological mantra as they re-use all there old soundbites in the vain hope to hide there parties total economic failure.

BETTER THERE ALL HAPPY TODAY

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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:02 am

witchfinder wrote:stox - the word "regulation" to Conservatives in this country and the United States is a dirty word, it belongs in the same category as "red tape" and "quangos", the ideology of Thatcherism and Reaganomics strongly advocates totaly free markets, profit or loss, survive or die, dog eat dog.

I continualy argue the case for the "social market economy", the system which has proved highly successful in Germany and Scandanavia, and which has provided a strong, well balanced economy with successful business aswell as good pensions and protections for workers. FULLY AGREE STOX

The United States and the UK can only look at the German example with envy, strange that a Conservative leader leading a Conservative government puts as much emphasis on regulation and fairness as it does on supporting business and industry - the third way. FULLY AGREE STOX

The Conservatives regard employment rights, industrial tribunals and rules governing safe or acceptable working environments as "uneccessary red tape", hence the rolling back of employment laws in favour of the bosses been able to do as they please without any come-back. FULLY AGREE STOX

THere is a difference between German and French Conservatives and British Conservatives, our continental neighbours tend not to treat people as a mere commodity, they tend to treat them as humans.
FULLY AGREE STOX


I cannot argue with any of this Withfinder. I have been arguing all of this from the very start of the 1980s

As recent engineering manufacturing job losses demonstrate how totally uncommitted this Tory lead coalition government is to re-balancing the UK economy. As they continue to pursue financial engineering with their friends in the city and banks. at the expense of real engineering manufacturing jobs at companies like Forge-masters and now Bombardier, while our near European neighbours like Germany powers ahead by once more securing real manufacturing contracts from both the UK and China that are worth billions of pounds in exports?

How much more of UK manufacturing engineering sector will the Tory party decimate this time? to add on top of what Thatcher destroyed in the 1980s. the loss of the Bombardier contract will put up to 20,000 more people out of work while the taxpayer will shell out yet more money in unemployment benefits while this Coalition Government borrowing yet more money to pay for the unemployed people in manufacturing. This one contract will see a knock effect of Job losses in maintenance contract as well.

once more the Midlands, North, Wales, and Scotland will be paying the price for the bankers in the South east, London and Surrey. So much for Cameron's talk about re-balancing the UK economy then.


Last edited by Stox 16 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:16 am

tlttf wrote:At last a government that is willing to remove the banking risk from the retail saver. By separating the risk between the investment and retail banks, the banks will be allowed to fail if they choose to gamble. Considering the Tories are meant to be the bastard child of all things bankable, they're doing more to curb the excessives than the previous troughites.

Strangely like most ex ministers Mandelson (government employee) moved from a £200, 000 flat in 1997 and now lives in a £8,000,000 house now. Good wages for somebody that never had to take a risk. Doesn't it make you proud of how they look after the old boys!

While I welcome any attempt to split casino investment banking from high street retail banking by reintroducing banking regulation that was first removed by the then Tory Government in the 1980s. However, all Tory acts of reform in financial sector should in my opinion be greeted with a great deal of caution. as knowing the track record of both the financial sector and the Tory party they pay to look after there interests, i suspect their will be a great deal of foot-dragging as yet over any implementation of any forthcoming legislation to correct the mistakes made by the Thatcher Government with regards to any financial sector regulation.

i noted with great interest Gideon statement of legislation not coming in to effect till 2019?

One should also note the following
Still here is some facts anyway of Tory party Donations, Source: The Bureau of Investigative Journalism

Hedge Funds donation £1.38Million
Financiers donation £1.31 Million
Fund Asset managers donation £1.16 Million
Banking £0.61 donation
Private Equity donation £0.57 million
Trading/Broking/Dealing donation £0.47 million
Multiple City sectors donation £0.31 million
Financial service donation £0.19 million
Insurance donation £0.19 million
City lobbyists /PR donation £0.08 million

Total of £6.27 million from Friends within Financial Services Sector.

Top donator David Rowland property developer and former Tax exile £1.160,936 million

also the Tories received £25,000 from Abdul-Majid Jafar the executive director of Crescent Petroleum Group. yet in records in companies House he is listed as being resident in the UAE. Still that will not bother the Tory Fan club on here. as it does not matter were the old cash comes from in there eyes. buck here, a buck there no matter. bet the Tories thought that UAE stood for United Amateur Economics Group.

Also Syrian born businessman Ayman Asfari head of Petrofac gave £79,200 last year. in 2008 Asfari's company won two contracts approved by Syrian government worth $1 Billion or £640 million. President Assad attended the opening of one of these projects. has dual Syrian and British nationality. sound a nice old boy ha ha

wonder if he chats with Cameron about how Assad deals with riots and freedom of speech. Just cannot see Cameron turning too Tanks in London. as we could not afford the petrol to run them over here, under Ozzies economic plan. The Army would never stand for the fitting of 50p slot meters in Tanks or would they? if only the Tories could get the Army pay for itself could be the only way they could get growth in the economy you know. say 50p for ten minutes ride or fire a shot and get one free.

Lebanese businessman Fouad Makhzoumi was the highest single woman donation of £308,000.

Former head of Lehman bankers in European and Asian operation, who got out just days before the bank went bankrupt in 2008, Jeremy Isaac's who now runs a private equity firm gave a donation of £50,000. sort of bail out a banker and the banker pays the Tory party. nice that.




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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:20 am

What Capitalists in the real world have in common with the game of Monopoly© is that neither actually produces wealth.

In pushing finite assets around the tabletop, some get rich at the expense of others, but the size of the pot is unaltered.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:16 am

bobby wrote:Sorry if I took so long in respoding KO but I've only just stopped laughing, geez you tories do have a great sence of humour.

Glad you appreciated it. Would you now kindly stop trying to put a label on everyone, just becuase one doesn't agree agree with the opinion of the masses it doesn't make them a tory.

Thanking you in advance.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by sickchip on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:25 pm

.....let's forget all this doom and gloom, and look forward to the Olympics! An expensive event.....but worth every penny of our money. Come on London....oops I mean the UK. Wink
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by bobby on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Hi sicky, I think its the Londoners who are to be pittied in this case, as they are footing the Lions share of the costs, and despite what that arsehole Doris Johnson says, they will not benefit by it one iota
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by sickchip on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:41 pm

So, who does benefit from the olympics? The soup thickens!
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by bobby on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:44 pm

keenobserver, I appologise if I have upset you, by labeling you a Tory. But as this is a political thread, its hard to believe that someone without an allegance would have much to input, whereas you do and it seems to me to be more Tory idealised, or perhaps Lib-Dem as there isn't much between the two nowadays , perhaps this is another assumption I have got wrong as I am only human, but if something looks like a dog and barks like a dog the impression most will reach is that it is a dog. Again appologies for upsetting you.
As a matter of interest, if you told us where your loyalties lay, there would be no further errors in judgement.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by bobby on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:48 pm

sickchip, its funny you mention "soup" as soup kitchens are probably the only benefit the poor will have left after this poxy Government has finished, then i'm sure Herr Cameron will find a way of turning them into a Tory proffit.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:24 pm

bobby wrote:keenobserver, I appologise if I have upset you, by labeling you a Tory. But as this is a political thread, its hard to believe that someone without an allegance would have much to input, whereas you do and it seems to me to be more Tory idealised, or perhaps Lib-Dem as there isn't much between the two nowadays , perhaps this is another assumption I have got wrong as I am only human, but if something looks like a dog and barks like a dog the impression most will reach is that it is a dog. Again appologies for upsetting you.
As a matter of interest, if you told us where your loyalties lay, there would be no further errors in judgement.

No need for apologies(but leave the dog references alone). I wouldn't say my loyalties lie with any particular party, as I personally find them all wanting in one respect or another. So it generally depends on the topic and mood of the day what side I would lend support or oppose, because I can't really be arsed with the he said/ she said attitude of modern politics.

As with my support of OW's idea on Winter Fuel Payments, if any party had the brains to take the idea up I would be more than likley to offer support and forgo other opions that are less important to me, as it offers a threefold strike -

1) It maintains the winter fuel allowance for the most needy in our society
2) It hits the utility companies for a change
3) It benefits the most needy in our society but at no cost to the taxpayer, which has to be good all round( unless HMRC offer the utility companies some sort of tax relief)

It's now a case of getting that idea to a politician somewhere that would actually appreciate the magnitude of such a policy, and would have some sort of influence that could gather enough cross party support in the house to have it implemented. Do we know any?

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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:06 pm

The European Central Bank offer to lend money to Banks has resulted in applications for nearly 500 billion Euros, and has had to be restricted.
Quelle surprise! Who would have thought that so many Bankers were swimming without their trunks on?
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by sickchip on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:51 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The European Central Bank offer to lend money to Banks has resulted in applications for nearly 500 billion Euros, and has had to be restricted.
Quelle surprise! Who would have thought that so many Bankers were swimming without their trunks on?

Very Happy

....I guess shy bairns get no sweets!
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:54 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The European Central Bank offer to lend money to Banks has resulted in applications for nearly 500 billion Euros, and has had to be restricted.
Quelle surprise! Who would have thought that so many Bankers were swimming without their trunks on?


Good, they got my applicattion, thought it might have got held up in the christmas post. Laughing
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:11 pm

You can't sail in TWO yachts at the same time. Give some back!
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by keenobserver1 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:51 pm

I don't have two yachts, it's a Catamaran!!!!
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:30 am

oftenwrong wrote:What Capitalists in the real world have in common with the game of Monopoly© is that neither actually produces wealth.

In pushing finite assets around the tabletop, some get rich at the expense of others, but the size of the pot is unaltered.

I cannot agree more with you.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:52 am

Here is how well the Economy was running by from Q2 TO Q3 in 2011. The first set of figures were before the Euro zone crisis. [b]

The UK Economy is now not just limping along, but has almost come to a total stop. So lets just take a look at how the new Tory whizzkid Ozzie is doing after his last lot of limp excuses from too much Snow to too much Sun. Can the Tory lead Coalition show were this growth is going to come from? or are you going to ask the Olympic committee if they can hang the games out for all of 2012? as the only growth i can see coming will come in Q3 in 2012 and you could even see 1% if we are all lucky. let face it, if this is the A plan I cannot wait to see what the B plan is? as A must stand for apathetic.

Growth forecast Downgraded for the 4th time by (OBR) April 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for the 3rd time to 1.7% (Budget 2011)
Growth forecast Downgraded for the 2nd Time by CBI to 1.3% in July 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for the 3rd Time by IMF to 1.3% in July 2011
City Growth forecast as low as 1.2% at the time of the 2011 Budget
GDP Growth in December 2010 Contracted by 0.5% in Q4 (OBR)
GDP Growth April 2011 is just 0.5% in Q1 (OBR)
GDP Growth July 2011 is just 0.2% in Q2 (OBR)
GDP Growth in April 2011 just clawed back the 0.5% lost in Q4 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth is 1.1% lower than the OBR thought it would be in Sept 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth is 0.8% lower than in November 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth is 0.2% lower than in March 2011 (OBR)
GDP Growth is now rising at a slower rate than, 1930s,1970s,1980s,1990s (ONS)
Coalition Inflaction forecasts of 4% to 5% (Budget 2011)
Coalition Inflation has rose as the UK plunged £12 billion into the Red (ONS)
Coalition Inflation up to 4.5% April 2011 heading to 5% (Bank of England)
Coalition Inflation set to rise in Q3 to 5% as utility bill take hold in June 2011 (FT)
Coalition Government Borrowing forecast up £54 billion (Budget 2011)
Coalition Government Borrowing Topped £10 billion in just Feb 2011 (ONS)
Coalition Government Borrowing set to be £10 billion every year to 2015 (ONS)
Government and Taxpayers hold a 83% stake in Lloyds and RBS, and took at £30 billion share market fall
Out standing Banking debt to UK Taxpayers is £112 billion in June 2011 (Bank of England)
Unemployment up to a 17 year high still (ONS)
Unemployment increased by 20,000 the highest three month figures sin Jan 1997 (ONS)
Unemployment JSA claimants increased by by 24,400 to 1.52 million in June 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment for woman claimant increased by 9,300 to 474,000 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment for Woman claimants increased by 9,500 to 493,000 in June 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment for men claimants increased by 3,100 to 994,200 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment for men claimants increased by 15,000 to 1.03 million in June 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 7.7% of economically active population March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment that is now economically inactive increased by 32,000 to 9.33 million in June 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment of people made redundant increased by 144,000 from may to July (ONS)
Unemployment fell just 1% to 2.45% in June 2011,(ONS)
Manufacturing production output declined by 1.5% in April 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing production output declined by 0.3% in June 2011 (ONS)
Industry account for just 17% of the UK GDP (ONS)
Industrial production overall declined by 1.2% Feb 2011 (ONS)
Industrial production in North Sea oil fell by 1.4% in Q2 July 2011 (ONS)
UK Vehicle production fell 7.6% in April 2011 (ONS)
UK Vehicle production fell 3.5% in July 2011 (SMM)
UK Business bankruptcy & liquidation increased by 4.4% over the some period in 2010 (BSN)
UK Business bankruptcy & liquidation was 4,121 in Q1 an increase of 3.7% (BSN)
UK Business bankruptcy & liquidation was 4,232 in Q2 an increase of 2.7% (BSN)
UK Business company & individual insolvency record peaked at 2.6% in 1993 (BSN)
UK Business debt relief orders (DRO) Up 6,788 or 20.3% in Q1 2011 (BSN)
UK Business debt relief orders (DRO) UP 7,257 or 15.3% in Q2 2011 (BSN)
UK overseas Aid spending is now the highest in Europe in 2011 (ONS)
UK exposure to Greek debt default taken by UK Banks is 75 billion Euros
UK bank exposure to Eurozone weakest Economies is £200 billion (Bank of England/FT)
Home repossession peak set in 1991 at 97,000 homes (Council of Mortgage lenders)
Home repossession up 40,000 in 2011 (Council of Mortgage lenders)
Home repossession forecast to rise to 45,000 homes in 2012 (Council of Mortgage lenders)
Mortgage & Credit Card debt will soar to 2,126 billion by 2015 (ONS)
Mortgage UK debt account is around £21,000 per person living in the UK April 2011 (HSB)
Factory gate prices rose 0.9% between Feb & April 2011 (ONS)
Factory gate prices rose at an annual rate of 5.3% in May 2011 (ONS)
Construction has dramatic fall by 4.7% in April 2011 (ONS)
Food prices rose by 7.4% in the biggest rise since 2009 (ONS)
Food prices will rise by 14% by the end of 2011 (FT)
Food prices rose 5.8% in May 2011 (ONS)
Tax evaded each year is 23% Feb 2011 (HMCR)
Tax evaded by corporations cost the UK £16 Billion in 2010/11 (HMCR)
Tax North sea oil up by £2 billion for 2011, with HNCR tacking some 88% in Tax (HMCR)
Tax, The Coalition Government is set to rake in £4.5 billion more in Tax than Gordon Brown did in 2009
Gas 18% & Electric 16% prices up by 30% overall in August 2011
Full poverty is set to rise to 140,000 in 2011, with heating taking up to 10% of incomes (uSwitch)
Consumer spending accounts for 65% of UK economy (ONS)
Consumer spending had its biggest fall in total sale since the survey began in 1995 (ONS)
Consumer spending saw its first drop in personal spending since the Thatcher slump in 1980s (ONS)
Petrol price down by 1p with VAT UP by 3% in the Budget 2011
VAT Up from 17% to 20% in the 2011 Budget
CPI has put the cost of living double its target from 4% JAN 2011 (ONS)
R.P.I has gone from 5.1% to 5.5% the Highest since the Tory Government of 1991 (ONS)

Well the only party talking about a quick fix is the Coalition and the Tory party. but based on the last Q2 of GDP growth figures there is no fear of any quick fixes at all. In fact the only real growth that is taking place is to be found in all the wrong economic growth areas, such as unemployment JSA Payments, Business bankruptcy and Home repossessions with food inflation now set to rise by 14% by the end of 2011. all this is feed UK inflation at 4.5% that can only rise to 5% in Q3. Even some of the Coalition Deadheads in this laissez-faire Coalition are slowly waking up to the fact they have no economic vision of growth at all.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by bobby on Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:58 pm

Dear o Dear Stox, I never realised we where so bad off, I think I will go and fall on my pen knife.

Keep up the good work Stox your posts are real eye openers. Lets hope the right eyes are watching. Bob.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:16 pm

"the only party talking about a quick fix is the Coalition and the Tory party. but based on the last Q2 of GDP growth figures there is no fear of any quick fixes at all."

There wasn't any growth in Q2, but in the Third Quarter GDP rose by 0.1%. Rejoice! Rejoice!
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by astra on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:22 pm


but in the Third Quarter GDP rose by 0.1%. Rejoice! Rejoice

'every little helps'



those who little need it!
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:34 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"the only party talking about a quick fix is the Coalition and the Tory party. but based on the last Q2 of GDP growth figures there is no fear of any quick fixes at all."

There wasn't any growth in Q2, but in the Third Quarter GDP rose by 0.1%. Rejoice! Rejoice!

I cannot agree more with you. its just amazing that this Banal Coalition has sat for two whole years doing nothing at all. just borrowing more and more to pay for there growth in Unemployment. while having no fiscal policy for growth at all. I can think of no more irresponsible economic act in my life time. if any other UK Government had posted figures like this, the press and the UK people would be up in arms. but then the right wing own the press do they not
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by Stox 16 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:37 pm

bobby wrote:Dear o Dear Stox, I never realised we where so bad off, I think I will go and fall on my pen knife.

Keep up the good work Stox your posts are real eye openers. Lets hope the right eyes are watching. Bob.

Bob, I hope someone sits up and takes note.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:34 am

In normal circumstances you might say it's our fault for voting them in, but nobody voted for this incestuous Tory-led mutual admiration society.
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Re: The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

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