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Religious fascism or just common sense?

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Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by AwfulTruth on Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:14 am

First topic message reminder :

BBC Article

You may have heard of the controversy surrounding the advert that was to appear on the side of some buses, which read:

'NOT GAY! Post Gay; Ex-Gay AND Proud. GET OVER IT!'

The banning of this ad has been based on the idea that such an advert would cause widespread offence, not just to gays, but also amongst those who find this kind of ideology offensive and unacceptable.

I listened this morning to the BBC's 'This World', where two of the protagonists behind the ad, were interviewed, along with a gay vicar who was diametrically opposed to the mindset of these people. They respondents were Mike Davidson (anti-gay) from Core Issues LINK, Colin Coward (gay man), Director of Changing Attitudes LINK and Rev Lynda Rose (anti gay) from Anglican Mainstream LINK.

During the interview the vicar rightly pointed out that these people have a history of verbal abuse towards gay people, and he also took offence to their habit of attempting to talk over him, while he was supposed to be speaking.

What annoyed me the most was that the interviewer/journalist failed to question them as to whether they might actually be religious fascists. This seems to be a very common sense question: are they simply persecuting gay people because they hold fascistic, hateful, ideas about being gay and gay people? Also, it is very interesting to note that Mike Davidson has been struck-off the membership of the professional body The British Psychodrama Association. Apparently they decided he was seriously breaking their code of conduct and did not wish to be associated with views they deem as being extremist and not based on sound evidence LINK to Ex-Gay Watch.

Moreover, they believe that people who are gay become gay because they have made a moral decision to be gay, either through circumstance or through being made to be gay and so need to go straight again.

They firmly believe that the state of being gay can be cured, as it is a perversion that is an abomination to God, and that gay people can become heterosexual via therapy and repentance. Indeed, Colin Coward refuted this ideology but once again that hoary old trope, in the form of that biblical quote that all bigots hurl at you when losing the plot, was brought out of the hat. They conveniently, apparently, did not wish to bring out any of the others tropes, including the one that says its OK to stone adulterers to death and OK to have more than one wife...yawn!

I do wish I had been at that interview as I would have confronted them with what I believe is wrong with them, and not what they believe was wrong with me.

It was simply staggering how very nasty and unpleasant these people actually were and it sent shivers down my spine that people could be so offensive, so abusive and so very deluded.

Being gay is NOT an illness; it is a natural manifestation of nature mirrored throughout the animal world in which there is irrefutable proof that gay animals (animals that pair with their own gender and do not breed) perform a dynamic function within animal social groups. For example, flamingo social groups have up to 30% of same sex pairs, all of whom serve as surrogate parents for unwanted eggs. Observers have recorded female egg layers pushing eggs towards male couples (who also make nests in readiness), so that the 'gay' birds can adopt, hatch and nurture the chick inside the egg and thereby preventing the egg from dying.

WIKI
The Telegraph
Gay Animals Out of the Closet?
Psychology Today

As for being cured, well, as a lifelong gay man I can assert here, most definitely, that at NO point in my life did I ever 'choose' to be gay, or for that matter, I have never made a moral choice to become gay. It is not an optional extra or a decision open to me because I simply am what I am.

Scientific opinion clearly does not see homosexuality as a perversion, but now asserts that this state of being is actually a normal state as a variation of human nature. Sexual proclivity is essentially then, genetic. Hard-wired as being gay, or bisexual or heterosexual, is much more what the truth here is all about.

Difference is NOT a foreign country; it is merely a manifestation of the broad variety of nature's beings, including the human variety.

The real evil here, for me, is not the gay element, but actually the religious fascism element.

Religious fascism is an evil that dares not speak its name - so who really needs to get over it?




Last edited by Ivan on Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:36 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Mon May 28, 2012 5:29 pm

Why does anybody care?
Nothing better to do at the moment?

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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Mon May 28, 2012 5:31 pm

What is the point you would not understand the answer?

study
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon May 28, 2012 5:48 pm

Shirina wrote:
Why does anybody care?
Nothing better to do at the moment?

Catch you later. There's some paint I have to watch drying.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Mon May 28, 2012 8:26 pm

Catch you later. There's some paint I have to watch drying.

I highly recommend watching grass grow. I think that is slightly more entertaining than drying paint.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by astra on Mon May 28, 2012 8:56 pm

It's the watching slugs and worms crawling through the grass, or watching flys genuflect to their Maggot God on the newly painted door!!

Why do they always do that?
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon May 28, 2012 9:07 pm

Shirina wrote:
Catch you later. There's some paint I have to watch drying.

I highly recommend watching grass grow. I think that is slightly more entertaining than drying paint.

Not likely. The more the grass grows, the more the lawnmower calls, the more my conscience pricks looking at next doors neat lawn. Ah well, what is the old saying. 'Keeping up with the Jones's'. Still their name isn't Jones, so what the 'eck. Wink
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon May 28, 2012 10:40 pm

astra wrote:It's the watching slugs and worms crawling through the grass, or watching flys genuflect to their Maggot God on the newly painted door!!

Why do they always do that?

It's not reasonable to expect flies to read the "WET PAINT" notice.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by astra on Mon May 28, 2012 10:51 pm

AH!


Yeah!

Why is it that when you put those WET PAINT signs up, there are always volunteers who touch the paint?.

They ARE ALWAYS the ones who bitterly and vocifferously complain that they have "Paint on their fingers" as well!
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Tue May 29, 2012 2:25 pm

OK. I will explain exactly what science is.

Science involves nothing more than what some people think may be the answer to a problem that is presently unsolved.

They use many means to attempt to prove their theories but they are just that theories.

On any one subject you may have directly opposite opinions with each person involved adding to or subtracting from their first thoughts.


Many theories have in the past proved correct but far more have proved to be incorrect and many of those we have used in many ways and have had to change them.

I can give you many examples of evolution having been discredited on many grounds and if you wish for a list then I will willingly give you one.

As I have said previously Iam only interested in the truth but can assure you I have debated many things with many people from all walks of life and have learned how to put down anyone who feels obliged to come up with silly remarks and I have never lost yet.

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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by astra on Tue May 29, 2012 2:44 pm

To the lists!!

Let the joust commence!
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Ivan on Tue May 29, 2012 2:49 pm

I...have learned how to put down anyone who feels obliged to come up with silly remarks and I have never lost yet.
polyglide. Having read these threads quite extensively, I must conclude that that is indeed your opinion, and yours alone.
No

(By the way, I sent you a PM some considerable time ago concerning a possible avatar. Would you at least open it and read it, please?)
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Tue May 29, 2012 7:56 pm

Many theories have in the past proved correct but far more have proved to be incorrect and many of those we have used in many ways and have had to change them.
Unlike religion, science doesn't deal in absolute truths. This is what gives science the ability to change as new facts are found and new discoveries are made. Even then, science can be inflexible, as well. Often new facts are not brought to light until the proponents of the old facts are long in their graves. Yes, some theories are wrong, some theories are right. But ... you, yourself, mentioned all of the technological marvels that have been invented in just the past 150 years. Going from the rickety Wright Brothers plane to putting a man on the moon in only 67 years is pretty astounding.

Yet none of those marvels - from the first telephone all the way to the internet - could not not have taken place if science was so unreliable. Our scientific knowledge is always improving and increasing - it is always a work in progress. Creationists' views are hinged upon the idea that no new discoveries will be made and no knew knowledge will be learned. Without that paradigm, their whole argument falls apart. Here's an example:

When Thomas Edison was working on inventing the first sustainable electric light bulb, he tried over 10,000 different filament materials before he stumbled upon the one that worked. If a Creationist burst into Edison's laboratory while he was testing filament #2,702, it would have failed, and the Creationist would say, "See? I told you an electric light bulb was absolutely impossible!" Of course we know now that an electric light bulb is far from impossible, but if one were to base success or failure upon one snapshot of history, we would still be living in caves.

In the same way, Creationists base their whole argument upon a snapshot of present history while completely disregarding future discoveries. If evolution and the Big Bang can't be irrefutably proven right now, right this very minute, then it will NEVER be proven and so we should all revert to mythology and superstition to explain it all. That is the same logic as bursting into Edison's laboratory while he is testing filament #2,702 and demanding that the bulb he is working on right that minute light up ... and if it doesn't, then we should all just forget about the electric light bulb. Let's all go back to living in the darkness! Never mind the reality that it will take several thousand more tests before Edison hits upon the right answer.

As I have said many times, your arguments are based on what we don't know rather than on what we do, a classic "God of the Gaps" argument.
I can give you many examples of evolution having been discredited on many grounds and if you wish for a list then I will willingly give you one
Evolution is not a perfect theory, but again, it's because we don't know everything. Claiming it's been discredited based on that same previously mentioned historical snapshot is just reverting back to the "God of the Gaps" again. Some time ago I gave you a list of things about the human body that only evolution can explain. For instance, people being born with extra bones that would be useful only if we walked on all fours, or men having nipples. Why would God create such things? Or is this another example of Satan mucking about - like when he buried all of those dinosaur fossils (LOL!)
and have learned how to put down anyone who feels obliged to come up with silly remarks
Yeah, I've noticed that any remark that doesn't go along with your version of religion is considered "silly."
and I have never lost yet.
Unless you are a member of a formal debating team with judges and rules, you can't possibly know if you've won or lost.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 29, 2012 8:17 pm

".... you can't possibly know if you've won or lost."

Though you can abandon an unproductive argument and move on to something different, as we have seen.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Tue May 29, 2012 8:22 pm

Though you can abandon an unproductive argument and move on to something different, as we have seen.
True ... but being only one of two (three?) Americans on this board, the topics for me are rather limited. Sometimes we just have to find productivity where we can.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 29, 2012 8:43 pm

Seems to me an imposition therefore to feel obliged to rise to the bait every time it is offered.

A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Proverbs 15;1
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Wed May 30, 2012 10:49 am

Hi Ivan, I have just read your message, sorry for not doing so sooner but the box said no new message.

A white dove would be nice.

regards.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am

I have a deep desire to attempt to have people look at matters that they appear directly opposed to and view them based on what is actually known and not on speculation or theories etc;

We know the universe is here, we are aware of some of what it contains [but this may be only a very small part of the actual] we also know what we can see and have learned about our little planet.

What we are not certain about is, how and why.

We do know for certain that something cannot come from nothing, unless anti matter can be established, so there must be a creation of some kind or another, I can see no objection to that statement.

I have said how I think matter came about and also how everything was created and you may dispute this but there is no logical reason why this is not a possibility.

If anything is created there must therefore be a creator, there is so much proof of the interdependancy of many things towards another that any random means of their existance can be ruled out on logical grounds.

Now you may not believe in GOd, that is your perogative, however, surely it may be worth considering matters in a purely open minded way.

I can assure you I would be willing to consider any other alternative that has any credibility based on all the known facts.

What I am not interested in is remarks like paint drying.

Those making such remarks would fall asleep before the paint dried and would not wake up to reality before it needed a new coat.

regards Ivan.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 30, 2012 11:37 am

polyglide wrote:I have a deep desire to attempt to have people look at matters that they appear directly opposed to ....

Indeed, whilst there are others with a deep desire to avoid being told what to think, polly.

'twas ever thus.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Wed May 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Those making such remarks would fall asleep before the paint dried and would not wake up to reality before it needed a new coat.
What "reality" would that be?
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Wed May 30, 2012 7:40 pm



My favorite "hymn" Twisted Evil Quite a bit of lively debate on the comments section too! Wink
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Thu May 31, 2012 2:53 pm

See you do not even know what reality is
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Thu May 31, 2012 3:00 pm

See you do not even know what reality is
I want to know what YOU think reality is.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Thu May 31, 2012 3:03 pm

Just off the cuff, reality is accepting that which is known including ones limitations.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Thu May 31, 2012 3:23 pm

Just off the cuff, reality is accepting that which is known including ones limitations.
But religion is not known. It is a belief. That is why they call it faith.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Thu May 31, 2012 3:35 pm

I like the word faithless better...for me it's a lovely positive word!
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Thu May 31, 2012 3:41 pm

I was using the word in general terms and it had nothing to do with religion.

I find it hard to understand how you seem unable to keep things confined to the point in quesion and bring in totally irrelevant matters.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Thu May 31, 2012 5:00 pm

I find it hard to understand how you seem unable to keep things confined to the point in quesion and bring in totally irrelevant matters.
Hello! Look at the title of this thread!

Some of us are trying to keep it on topic.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:54 am

On the other thread I have given that which was asked for on this one and I will give it on this one.

Put Darwin's Theory Discredited on your computer and you will have ample proof that evolution is not ctredible.

So lets start with considering the alternatives.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:17 pm

Put Darwin's Theory Discredited on your computer and you will have ample proof that evolution is not ctredible.
Sure, polyglide, and 99% of those searches will direct me to biased Christian websites that have a vested interest in ensuring that it's discredited.
So lets start with considering the alternatives.
In the US, evolution IS the alternative.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:31 pm

When I tackled a Church of England vicar on Twitter recently, and asked him if he was for creation or evolution, he replied (in typical C of E fashion) "both". In his mind at least, he has squared the circle by saying that God created the world and then allowed it to evolve!!

For nearly five hundred years, the C of E has been as much a political institution as a religious one, and it shows!
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:58 pm

Attributed to Archbishop Temple (of Canterbury). 'I believe in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I regret it does not exist.' Crying or Very sad
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Shirina on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:18 pm

When I tackled a Church of England vicar on Twitter recently, and asked him if he was for creation or evolution, he replied (in typical C of E fashion) "both". In his mind at least, he has squared the circle by saying that God created the world and then allowed it to evolve!!

At least that's a more rational belief than a silly Adam and Eve story.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Blamhappy on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:31 pm

I think that's what a lot of priests and vicars would say. I never heard anyone dismiss evolution in my religious upbringing.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:36 pm

It was inevitable that Darwin's publication would have upset the God-fearing Victorians, who built more Churches than any other generation before or since.

For various reasons, Christianity has taken hold of large numbers in 21st. Century America who want something firmly to believe in. Such beliefs are strengthened by having something to oppose, such as the concept of evolution.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:54 am

Then if evolution is the alternative, PROVE IT.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:54 pm

polyglide wrote:Then if evolution is the alternative, PROVE IT.

The alternative to what? To this....?

Bereishit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz
Genesis 1.1

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Genesis 1.2

To prove that might be an excellent place to begin.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:22 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Bereishit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz
Genesis 1.1

An excellent transliteration accepted by scholars. I prefer this one, slightly different:

Hebrew Bible:

B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.

Genesis 1:1

Please exposit and explain what you have posted. Thank you.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:49 pm

Someone wants "proof" of a belief and someone else asks for an explanation. I'll leave you people to convince each other.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:11 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Please exposit and explain what you have posted. Thank you.
oftenwrong wrote:
… someone else asks for an explanation.

The “entity” that you have identified as “someone else” is me (account name “RockOnBrother”); I have in fact requested of you (1) an exposition, and (2) an explanation, of the following excellent transliteration of Genesis 1:1 posted by you:

oftenwrong wrote:
Bereishit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz
Genesis 1.1

I await your exposition and explanation of this text. Thank you.
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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:23 am

Anyone who does not believe in evolution is sadly lacking.

I believe in both.

An acorn will evolve into an oak tree, all the seeds for the plants will evolve into plantsetc;

The point is where did the acorn come from and the seeds etc;

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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:33 pm

Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?
by polyglide Today at 11:23 am


Re: Evidence for the existence of God
by polyglide Today at 10:55 am

Could you explain your differing views on the above.
On one you discredit evolution. On the other you believe in it. Or am I reading it wrongly?



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Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?

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