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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:24 am

A second Brexit referendum? It’s looking more likely by the day

From an article by Vernon Bogdanor:-

Both membership of the single market and a customs agreement would require us to accept much EU legislation without being able to help formulate it – including any legislation the EU chooses to enact in future. We would become, in effect, a satellite of the EU, relying on the Commission or other member states to defend our interests. Such an outcome – regulation without representation – proved unacceptable to Americans in the 18th century. It would probably prove equally unacceptable to the British people in the 21st. There is no logic to a “soft” Brexit – a form of withdrawal that mimics EU membership, but without the influence that comes from membership. The ultimate choice we face is either “hard” Brexit or remain.

Britain will be negotiating, therefore, for a free trade agreement in a “hard” Brexit. If one leaves a tennis club because one does not wish to pay the subscription and does not like the rules yet still wishes to play tennis, one’s leverage is not strong. In addition, a trade agreement would probably have to be ratified unanimously by the European Council, by a majority in the European Parliament, and 27 national and 11 regional parliaments – and we are up against a two-year time limit. There is, apparently, a Japanese saying to the effect that the shorter the time limit, the deeper your wallet needs to be.

Some British politicians suffer from an imperial reflex, however. For them, Britain lies at the centre of the world. We only have to state our aims and other countries will be generous enough to help us achieve them. Last year Brexiteers argued that Britain should leave an EU composed of ill-intentioned foreigners whose interests were in conflict with its own. This year it has been magically transformed into a charitable institution that can be relied on to safeguard our interests.

May called an election to strengthen her negotiating hand, but there is probably no Commons majority for her version of Brexit. Indeed, there is probably a stronger representation of remain MPs in Parliament today than before the election. With a deadlocked Parliament, the possibility of an unfavourable deal and both parties divided on Europe, it may start to appear that the only way out of the impasse is a second referendum in which the government’s deal is put it to the people for legitimation.


For the whole article:-
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/03/second-brexit-referendum-case-getting-stronger-political-deadlock-life-raft

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:55 pm

Former EU official: Conservative Brexit strategy the most harmful government policy for over 50 years

"The decisions taken by the former PM David Cameron, exacerbated by the decisions taken by his successor, are the most harmful decisions that have been taken by a British government for decades" said Sir Michael Leigh, who was a European Commission director-general from 2006 to 2011. "You have to go back to the Suez crisis in 1956 or to Munich in 1938 to find decisions taken by a British government that will turn out in time to have had such negative consequences for the United Kingdom."

He echoed concerns expressed by other former diplomats that May's government is both unprepared and ill-equipped for divorce talks with EU negotiators. One of the big problems hindering progress, Leigh claims, is the difficulty facing the EU in trusting the British government when it is so obviously divided over so many key issues. "Under these conditions, Barnier has got to be concerned that anything Davis says on any given day could be contradicted the next day by another cabinet minister.”


http://uk.businessinsider.com/sir-michael-leigh-may-brexit-munich-1938-2017-8
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:00 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:40 pm

David Miliband wants a re-run of the referendum. Practically guaranteed. (?)
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When the cat's away ....

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:16 pm

Tory hardliners emerge as cabinet's Brexit war winners



http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tory-hardliners-emerge-as-cabinets-brexit-war-winners/ar-AAq894h?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

The political parties will be holding Annual Conference in October. Suppose TM then commands, "Back me or sack me!" Will any Tory challenger risk picking up the option and thus precipitating ANOTHER general election? Mr. Corbyn's supporters must fervently hope so - it would be 1997 all over again.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:59 pm

I long for another General Election - it won't solve the problems we now have - but it might be the beginning of preventing things getting worse
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:47 pm

UK offers climbdown on European courts deciding cross-border cases

Britain will be subject to the rulings of European courts after Brexit, the government has conceded, in an apparent climbdown from its promise of judicial independence.

In the latest in a series of policy papers that seek to blur the edges of hard Brexit, the government argues that for the smooth settlement of cross-border disputes it is necessary that foreign judgments sometimes apply to individuals and businesses in the UK.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/21/brexit-paper-backs-away-from-pms-promise-of-judicial-independence
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Conservatives come together to sell a Brexit transition

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:45 pm

The Brexit team are trying to kick the can further down the road. Just take a couple of years longer to sort things out.
How is that going to help the ailing British economy?

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/conservatives-come-together-to-sell-a-brexit-transition/ar-AAqWxMR?li=BBx1bGE&ocid=ientp

Is anyone still in charge?
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Would you buy a second-hand car from this man?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:45 pm

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Well there's a surprise

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:32 am



"A United States of Europe" was clearly the intention as far back as General DeGaulle, who hated everybody but particularly the USA to whom he hated being beholden for having rescued his Country from the Nazis.  Creating the Euro had the specific purpose of providing an alternative reserve currency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
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Now it's getting silly

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:34 am

Merkel’s message to Theresa May: Brexit means Brexit

Britain wants to pick up the pace. EU negotiators in Brussels are taking their time. Blackmail and sabotage, cry Westminster’s Brexiters. The explanation is more prosaic. The more urgent a deal begins to seem for Britain, the higher the incentives stack in favour of a stalling strategy from the EU27.

This, of course, is how the process was designed. Article 50 of the union’s treaty was written to discourage nations from leaving. As soon as Theresa May set the article’s two-year clock ticking in March, she conceded the advantage to those sitting on the other side of the table. The PM was warned of the danger by her advisers. But that was before she had lost an election and Britain had to confront the hard reality that it cannot have its cake and eat it.


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/merkel%e2%80%99s-message-to-theresa-may-brexit-means-brexit/ar-AArU0Zu?li=BBx1bGE&ocid=iehp

"Misreading Bonn and later Berlin has been one of the more reliable threads of 44 years of British EU membership."
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by sickchip on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:47 pm

As someone who voted remain I would like to apologise. I realise now I was entirely wrong, and would like to apologise for arguing here, and on other sites, against those who voted to leave.

BREXIT is clearly the best thing for Britain and was the right decision by a wise, and insightful, electorate.

Once again I apologise for ever doubting Brexit was the right decision.

I can't believe I ever doubted it would all go so well, and that we Brits can now look forward to a bright, happy, and prosperous future.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:40 pm

It does really seem to be going terribly well, doesn't it?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:33 am

The thot plickens!

"The Daily Express says French President Emmanuel Macron plans to offer the UK a flexible new EU membership deal - with the backing of German Chancellor Angela Merkel."



http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/photos/what-the-papers-say-a-look-at-todays-front-pages/ss-BBufa43?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=mailsignout#image=3
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:42 pm

Brexit: 'Zero chance' leaving EU will make Britons better off, Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman says

Paul Krugman has said there is “zero chance” Brexit will boost trade and has slapped down suggestions that leaving the European Union will make Britons better off. He rejected the assertions of Brexiteers that leaving the single market and customs union will ultimately help the UK export more to the rest of the world.

“I don’t think there’s any plausible case that Brexit is a good thing for the British economy as a whole”, Krugman said. The overwhelming majority of trade economists are in agreement that leaving the EU is likely to harm the economy.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-paul-krugman-zero-chance-britain-better-off-eu-leave-single-market-custom-union-exports-trade-a7965871.html
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:15 am

The theory runs that once out of the EU's clutches, Britain can make its fortune by dealing directly with places like the US, China, India etc. But Trump's USA has just poured cold water on our ideas, with a "straw in the wind" action:

America's Department of Commerce announced yesterday it had made a preliminary finding that the Canadian firm Bombardier had received unfair state subsidies and sold its C Series jet below costs. It has now imposed an interim tariff of 219.63 per cent on the company's new commercial jets to the US. Bombardier, which is one of Northern Ireland's largest employers, has branded the ruling "absurd".

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-bitterly-disappointed-over-bombardier-tariffs-in-boeing-feud/ar-AAsvIJ9?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=iehp
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:16 pm

Reader comment from the FT......


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKvE4YpXcAgYYaL.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:37 pm

nicely put
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:03 pm

Michael Foot has up to now been credited with authorship of "The longest suicide-note in history".

How else could you describe Brexit?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:59 pm

Theresa May under pressure over ‘secret advice’ on halting Brexit

From an article by Toby Helm:-

Theresa May is under pressure to publish secret legal advice that is believed to state that Parliament could still stop Brexit before the end of March 2019 if MPs judge that a change of mind is in the national interest. The move comes as concern grows that exit talks with Brussels are heading for disaster. The calls for the PM to reveal advice from the country’s top legal experts follow government statements declaring that Brexit is now unstoppable, and that MPs will have to choose between whatever deal is on offer next year – even if it is a bad one – or no deal at all.

Nick Clegg has said: “The claim that Article 50 is irreversible was always a myth put about by Brexiters who want to stop the British people from changing their minds. Theresa May’s threat that MPs will have to vote for whatever deal she presents to them next autumn, otherwise the UK will crash out of the EU without a deal, is also patent nonsense. Article 50 was never the one-way conveyor belt to Brexit as claimed by the government. It can be stopped at any point.” He said that MPs should ask themselves one question when they come to vote in a year’s time: “Does the deal measure up to the promises made by Brexiters to their constituents before the referendum? If not, MPs should reject the deal, urge the government and the EU to stop the clock, and give the country the opportunity to think again.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/07/theresa-may-secret-advice-brexit-eu
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:05 pm

"give the country the opportunity to think again."

Or to put it another way, keep having referenda until the thick voters get it right!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:53 pm

and this, of course, is why the referendum was such a stupid idea in the first place - if you think voters are thick, why ask them to decide a really complex issue?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:28 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:16 am

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Our wonderful negotiators have a plan

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:45 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:03 pm

The only explanation for the British posture over Brexit negotiations is that we are trying to confuse the other side with a pretense of total incompetence.

It's working so far.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:49 pm

Certainly is - either that, or our negotiators are completely incompetent and we're f*cked
Time for a new government methinks
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:18 am

"The EU risks triggering another financial meltdown if it punishes the City to make a 'political point' about Brexit", the chief executive of the London Stock Exchange warned today. Xavier Rolet said any attempt to seize back euro trading would lead to unacceptable 'systemic financial risk'.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4992010/EU-warned-risks-financial-meltdown-punishing-City.html#ixzz4vqsl9vsP


Well he would say that, wouldn't he?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:53 pm

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:34 pm

It's the only publication worth reading these days.

Luckily Mrs H bought me a subscription for Christmas last year - I hadn't read it for about 15 years before that...
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Brexit means Brexit

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:35 pm

This government has "nailed our colours to the mast." (Brexit means Brexit. Reattach the Great to Britain!)

Would any party have the nerve to throw everything into reverse - and would the EU agree to a volte- face on the terms Britain enjoyed pre-referendum?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:36 pm

I think that if the reality of Brexit were explained in all its aspects - simply and clearly - many people would change their minds. You must know that many people really have no idea of all the implications, they simply vote on their 'gut' feeling.  Oh, and their age. Try and tell old people that the 'good old days' of the 1960's was actually the country  sliding into economic ruin - until we joined the CM and changed our strategy. They don't want to understand or know the truth. They want to be 'free' in a world where Nothing is free. We are all subject to rules and regulations. We are not free to travel widely - except that at countries permission. We can't fly over another country without permission. We are bound by International Agreements and Conventions as well as our own laws.  

Donne had it right  'No man is an island'. Neither is any country.

Britain never has been Great - except in the terms of military power.  It has relied on conquest, rape and pillage of other nations natural resources, slavery and ...  oo-er.

Is it comfortable in the Tower of London?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:08 am

They’re back, as wrong as ever. Enough of Nigel Lawson and his band of 80s ultras

From an article by Will Hutton:-

"In any league table of national figures who have been consistently wrong on almost every major judgment, Nigel Lawson must rank close to number one. As Britain and his party reel from the impact of intolerable intergenerational and geographical inequality, stagnating productivity, a vast personal debt burden, and now the poison of Brexit, Lawson is the man most closely associated with the ideas and policies that have brought us to our current pass.

With a wholly unjustified reputation for being an economic superman that buoys up his no less unjustified self-confidence, Lawson remains an insidious, if wizened, scorpion, as indiscriminately dangerous to his own side as to his ideological opponents. Beware his carefully targeted venom even if his attacks only prove you are in the right: millions will have immediately sided with the chancellor, Philip Hammond, when Lawson called for his resignation because he was undermining a hard Brexit.

Too many people remain in thrall to this out-of-time hulk that should be towed out to sea. Yet, extraordinarily, Lawson is the ringleader of a group of Thatcherite ultras who now crowd on to our airwaves, exploiting the mythology of Thatcherite greatness to insist Britain must make a complete break with the EU.
"

For the rest of the article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/21/enough-of-nigel-lawson-and-his-band-of-80s-ultras-brexit
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:55 am

Lest we forget: Chancellor Lawson's contribution to the Nation's prosperity

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/141485.stm
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:20 am

Britain’s Brexit team, courtesy of Frankie Boyle

Liam Fox - a man who looks like he could finish a steak while looking at footage from Hiroshima.

Boris Johnson, who for the first time finds himself in a cabinet without it involving someone saying: “Quick! My husband’s home early!”

David Davis - Sid James after a ‘This Morning’  makeover and a half-hearted tilt at therapy.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/28/night-of-the-living-dead-britains-brexit-team
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 am




Yeah, yeah, yeah .... and anyone who doesn't agree is an enemy of the people.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:28 pm

And there was me thinking that the EU cost us £350m a week! After all, buses don't lie, do they?  scratch

This was written by David Schneider:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNkGFn0WsAEG9Og.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:40 pm

Babbling about Brexit progress, Dave only oozes defeat

Extracts from an article by John Crace:-

In press conferences following negotiations, Michel Barnier used to make a point of making most of his remarks in English to make things easier for David Davis. But at the sixth time of asking he’s clearly decided there isn’t any language that Davis properly understands, so he might as well speak in his native French. The EU wasn’t asking for, nor would be making, any concessions, he said. And while some work had been done – with a little help, Davis was now often able to locate the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland on a map – there was still much more that needed to be done.

On the substantive issues, Davis appeared equally lost. He still hasn’t grasped the logic of Northern Ireland needing to remain in the single market and the customs union to prevent the need for a hard border and he also appears not to understand the fundamental imbalance of power within the negotiations. As for the financial settlement, “substantial technical progress” had been made. Britain had finally agreed the currency. If not the amount.

There were just two weeks to try to save Brexit. Dopey Dave looked around for help, before it dawned on him that he was the person on whom the country was counting. His expression was of a man who had only just realised he was completely out of his depth. Defeat oozed out of every pore. The Brexiter for whom hubris beckoned unless the Maybot was suddenly willing to hand over €60bn. “We’re making progress”, Davis insisted as he was led away by his child minder. Barnier couldn’t resist a little smirk. He’d had tougher negotiations with his kids over how much TV they could watch than he had with the British contingent. His kids would never have limited their options so catastrophically by triggering Article 50 before they knew what they wanted as an outcome.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/babble-brexit-progress-dave-ooze-defeat-barnier
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:49 pm

But he does have spreadsheets, which show progress.

Yikes!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:57 pm

The Observer view of Britain’s shambolic Brexit negotiations

Extracts from an ‘Observer’ editorial:-

Boris Johnson, is busy losing a personal battle with Iran over his gross mishandling of the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian woman jailed in Tehran on fabricated charges. Johnson lacks the sense of responsibility and gravitas required for his job. Theresa May picked him because, after the Brexit referendum, she could not refuse him a senior post. He has repeatedly proved himself unworthy of the honour. May should show some teeth – and sack him.

The Johnson embarrassment is but one of many unfortunate by-products of Britain’s biggest problem: Brexit. May and her Crazy Gang cabinet appear not to grasp the dismaying extent to which the UK’s views are now dismissed, ignored and ridiculed on the international stage. As Britain flounders under the baleful influence of a clique of Tory hard Brexiters, the diminution of its global reputation proceeds apace. What is the world at large to make of a leader who is so clueless and lacking in authority that a senior minister, Priti Patel, can parade around Israel like a PM-in-waiting, holding high-level talks and peddling controversial initiatives at a sensitive juncture, all apparently without her knowledge or agreement?

May’s government is a chronic shambles; even its Tory press supporters admit as much. But so, too, undeniably, are the Brexit negotiations. Last week’s talks, rather than forging consensus on issues of money, citizens’ rights and the Irish border, revealed widening differences. Michel Barnier, the EU negotiator, has now given Britain two weeks to find solutions. Yet there is David Davis again blithely claiming that progress is being made, while pleading for Europe’s political leaders to rescue him. He has made a monumental mess of things and should be replaced.


https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/11/observer-view-on-britains-shambolic-brexit-negotiations
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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