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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:29 pm

Ship-building, steel and coal has not been bolloxed up by Europe

In the 1950s and 1960s the UK built ships for Singapore, Malaysia, Nigeria and a whole host of other places, and today these countries now build their own ships, as third world nations become emerging nations, and as emerging nations become developed nations, their reliance on places like the UK, France, the United States or Germany is greatly diminished.

In 1950 Toyota built less than 12,000 cars - by 1968 it was over 1 million

In 1950 no one would have believed that by 2000 South Korea would be building ships for the Australian and New Zealand navies, and defence equipment for the middle east.

The dominance of the United States and the western powers on building everything from power station turbines, ships, cars, defence equipment, engineering harware and oil refineries no longer exists, the market place is much tougher with more competition.

The ending of ship building on the Tyne, the Clyde and in Sunderland was predictable, its fate was sealed when nations of the empire began gaining their independence after the Second World War.




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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astra on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:09 pm

MY point is Witchfinder, season's felicitations to you!, that there is now a world wide shortage of shipping to carry the tonnage that now circles this planet! We should be in there building and crewing those monsters, but due to the Conservative ideology, we neither build ships, or crew them. Any Ferry you look at at Cairnryan or Stranraer, the biggest we got right now, is registered overseas and manned by a crew of foreigners!

Again, the Wear shipyard (Austin & Pickersgills) was "Run Through" by a Rapier held by both Stenna and Westminster!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:29 pm

Well astra

My father, uncles and grandfather all served on ships built in the north east, they were employed by now defunked shipping companies "Turnbull & Scott" - "Rowland & Marwood" and "Headlams", and the ships had names like "Runswick"; "Killdale"; "Sandsend" and "Egton", all villages around the North York Moors.

All the local shipping companies have now gone, as has all the ships, the last one was laid up in Hartlepool ( The Egton ) before been scrapped.

Its a sad fact that British ships who would need to pay British wages cannot compete with crews that are happy to be paid £50 per week, and British or EU registered ships have tougher rules than say a Liberian or Panamanian registered ship, owners choose not to register here.

The United States has a rule which states that coastal trade from one US port to another, must be carried out by a US registered vessel with American crew.

The world has changed, and sadly great companies like Doxfords have gone, but thats what happens, nothing stays the same.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:41 pm

".... nothing stays the same."

and thank God for that, otherwise we would still be driving horse-drawn vehicles, using typewriters to communicate, and going to bed by candlelight.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:37 am

witchfinder wrote:The economic giants of the world in the near future will be China, India, the United States and Brazil.

If the Euro sceptics of Britain got their way, then where would Britain stand in the world of tomorrow, just how important do people like Nigel Farage or David Hannan believe Britain will be in 2050. ?

By 2050 the United States will be dwarfed by a China which will have a GDP estimated to be almost double that of the US, if the EU works together as a single economic power then we will have a significant, important voice.

A Europe of individual nations with individual currencies and with no co-operation will be a bunch of insignificant states, all with little influence.

Its time to forget the British Empire, the Second World War and sending in the gun boats that we no longer have, stop living in the past, its time for something new and different.

Be brave, go for it

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:12 am

astra wrote:
What industry



WHERE TO START?

Directives from Europe to Sir Monte Finniston to lower preduction and prices of British Steel - THEY had us produce less steel and charge MORE for what we were selling, as the French Germans and Italians could NOT keep up with us!

Coal, Now shipped in to TYNE DOCK from Poland Talk about taking coals to Newcastle!

Shipbuilding on the Tyne and on the river Wear all bolloxed up by Europe - OH no laws were broken, they are much too canny for that!! but contracts changed half way through the building slowing delivery and imposing delay fines
Rail rolling stock contracts signed then dishonoured so Rolling Stock manufacture ended in York
Now we have the British Military Uniforms being won by a German Company who have instantly outsourced this work to Turkey - not even in the EU yet!! (Heaven Help Us)

Hi astra
I believe the greatest mistake the UK made over the last 30 years has been our total failure in our Manufacturing production economic policy...its a far bigger mistake than UK banking in my view...its left us economically weak with only 17% of our economy today coming from manufacturing...Its very fair to state that the Tory party set out to weaken union power that was found in most part within manufacturing companies...its also quite fair to say that we on the Left did not defend the economic arguments that manufacturing must be a key industry within our economy...not all of us thought this..but most fell for the Right wing arguments....now we are paying a very heavy price for this failed economic thinking....However, its not often that you get the chance to re-fight an old economic argument like we have today... its still not to late for us to turn this all around...the only real problem is the government we have in power today sees itself as safe-gruarding just one area of the UK economy...so to change this silly economic policy that is based on some 1980s policy...this government has to go and be replace by a pro manufacturing government... its just that simple...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by ROB on Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:10 am

astra wrote:
WHERE TO START?

Directives from Europe to Sir Monte Finniston to lower preduction and prices of British Steel - THEY had us produce less steel and charge MORE for what we were selling, as the French Germans and Italians could NOT keep up with us!
 

Could that possibly be the same Germany that tried to destroy the United Kingdom from the air during the Battle of Britain, the same Germany that had barges awaiting Goering’s success to embark German troops in the Operation Sea Lion, the same Germany that recruited neo-Nazi Arabs to revolt in Iraq circa 1942, and the same Germany whose U-boats damned near sank Britain out of existence during the Battle of the Atlantic? I could go on, but I shan’t.

Could that possibly be the same France that oh=so=valiantly battled the invading Germans for an entire six weeks before utterly collapsing and establishing Vichy France in the territory left them by their German overlords, contributing to the stranding of hundreds of thousands of British troops at Dunkirk, the same France whose Vichy French troops fired upon Brits and Americans in1942 during Operation Torch? I could go on, but I shan’t.

Could that possibly be the same Italy that allied itself with Germany, the same Italy whose troops invade North Africa and killed British soldiers? I could go on, but I shan’t.

And there are Brits who are surprised? Wake up and smell the coffee. The governments of these countries, your oh-so-precious allies (of convenience) have always evidenced disdain for and covert hatred of Britain by their exhibited actions.

Meanwhile, you’ve neglected inconvenient allies, who stood shoulder-to-shoulder with you whilst the fearless French cut and ran, still patiently wait. I’m speaking, of course, of Australia, New Zealand (look up the composition of the cruiser fleet that sunk the Graff Spee in the South Atlantic in 1939), and Canada, O Canada, that increases its Royal Canadian Navy by leaps and bounds to escort convoys through Doenitz’s wolf packs, and to whose bravery the United Kingdom just might owe its existence today.

astra wrote:
Coal, Now shipped in to TYNE DOCK from Poland  Talk about taking coals to Newcastle!
 

Natural-resource-poor Britain allows its one abundant natural resource to create jobs for Poles and profit Poland while the United Kingdom endures unemployed homeless folks on the streets of London? My, my, my.

astra wrote:
Shipbuilding on the Tyne and on the river Wear all bolloxed up by Europe - OH  no laws were broken, they are much too canny for that!! but contracts changed half way through the building slowing delivery and imposing delay fines
 

Once the Queen of the Sea, you’ve shipped your hard-earned crown cross channel. Didn’t your oh-so-loyal France, ally to the biter end, or six weeks, whichever come sooner, get to employ droves of French workers (at the expense of British workers looking for non-existent jobs) building some state-of-the-art true ocean liner (capable of trans-Atlantic sprints at close to 30 knots) that wears an honored British name?  

astra wrote:
Rail rolling stock contracts signed then dishonoured so Rolling Stock manufacture ended in York
 

Wasn’t the first working railroad in the world British?

astra wrote:
Now we have the British Military Uniforms being won by a German Company who have instantly outsourced this work to Turkey - not even in the EU  yet!! (Heaven Help Us)
 

Yes, Lord, Astra, my wise brother, heaven help those who can smell neither brewing coffee nor the pot of poison, spelling ultimate destruction, brewing right across the channel.

If you can’t defeat the British Lion, de-claw the thing and render it a pussycat.

Tell you what. I’ll immigrate to the UK, become a citizen, help you get elected MP as head of your party, and when you’re called to form a government and become Prime Minister, I’ll be your assistant for defence and commerce, and labor (not “Labour”, as in party), and push through completion of the big deck carriers (call the ball, angled deck, steam catapult launch: Royal Navy inventions), return of all coal processing to the UK, and return of all UK shipbuilding to the UK, no matter the protests and screams of those who wish to pawn off UK sovereignty, military strength, and economic strength to bribe Germany, France, and their road dog Italy into liking the UK.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:03 am

First we take Manhattan - then we'll take Berlin.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:14 am

UK Prime Minister David Cameron, who with the Czechs refused to sign, said his proposals for cutting red tape and promoting business had been ignored.

[ BBC report: EU summit ]

As per usual everyone has an agenda relevant to current issues, but Cameron has a different agenda which has nothing to do with the matter at hand, he is rather like a child jumping up at the table where adults are sat.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:34 am

witchfinder wrote:UK Prime Minister David Cameron, who with the Czechs refused to sign, said his proposals for cutting red tape and promoting business had been ignored.

[ BBC report: EU summit ]

As per usual everyone has an agenda relevant to current issues, but Cameron has a different agenda which has nothing to do with the matter at hand, he is rather like a child jumping up at the table where adults are sat.

Cameron's "proposals for cutting red tape and promoting business" have more to do with legalising children being sent up chimneys once again, an official 60-hour working week and the right to fire staff at will.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:56 am

Just a thought. In the Dimbleby Lecture the other night the speaker, Sir Paul Nurse, geneticist and Nobel Laureate winner, said this. And this was the summing up. We cannot compete with cheap costs from Asia. The nation has always been at the forefront of science. We should concentrate on developing our abilities and education in the sciences and remain in the forefront in the future.

I don't believe he was saying we should not have some manufacturing capacity, but that we should concentrate on what we are good at. Obviously the country cannot run on science alone. Our discredited financial sector still plays a significant role, which would be watered down if Brussels had its way.

It will be interesting to see the result of the French Presidential Elections and how any change will affect European affairs.






Will François Hollande be the president to rescue France's economy?


The socialist candidate with a narrow lead in the race for the French presidency says he has more to offer than just austerity













    • Angelique Chrisafis in Paris
    • guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 28 February 2012 15.19 GMT
    • Article history


Guardian article I found interesting.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astra on Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:32 pm

#1 .(Reuters) - Hong Kong Airlines Ltd has threatened to cancel an aircraft order with Airbus in the latest escalation of tension over the European Union's decision to make flights pay for their carbon emissions, the South China Morning Post reported.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/01/uk-hongkong-airbus-idUSLNE82000X20120301


#2 .Hong Kong Airlines Ltd has threatened to cancel an aircraft order with Airbus in the latest escalation of tension over the European Union's decision to make flights pay for their carbon emissions, the South China Morning Post reported.

The Hong Kong-based regional carrier, backed by China's fourth-largest carrier Hainan Airlines Co Ltd, said it was under pressure to cancel its order for 10 Airbus A380s with a list value of $3.8 billion, the Hong Kong newspaper said.

"We cannot do something which is against our country's interests," it quoted airline president Yang Jianhong as saying.
http://thegwpf.org/international-news/5106-climate-wars-escalate-chinese-airline-may-cancel-airbus-order.html


Seems to me that the EU love to make noises, all the WRONG noises.

Same as this country - Ideology getting in the way of business


#3 .To meet demand, China's domestic airlines will need to buy an estimated 4,330 new aircraft valued at $480 billion over the next two decades. China expects to order 1,100 new transport aircraft and 1,000 general aviation aircraft between 2011 and 2015 coming years According to civil aviation officials. China has quickly assembled one of the largest airline fleets in the world. A total of 145 new aircraft were delivered in 2005
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=313&catid=13&subcatid=86


We in UK no longer build WHOLE aircraft, we build parts - wing engines andsuch like. This EU pondering could cost us dearly

SO IS the EU really the way forward. I argue it is better to make a pigs dinner of circumstances for ourselves rather than have some numb nut do it for us!

Ofcourse, it is always nice to be able to blame someone else!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:56 pm

Domestic politics in the UK have been so absorbing since the Budget that we have forgotten to keep pace with what continues to beset the Eurozone.

The Greek position is still unclear, as forthcoming elections are expected to see a victory for Parties OPPOSED to the previously-announced austerity plan. Spain now has a right-wing government, but no money. The Spanish Banks are consolidating by forming ever-larger Groups that have taken over the minnow Savings-Banks that previously safeguarded the peasants' savings by keeping them local. All Banks still have tremendous exposure to uncollectable debts on Property, and the hiving-off into a separate entity of the worst examples has, unsurprisingly, had no useful result. Spanish sovereign debt means rates in excess of 6% now apply to loans from outside sources.

Italy is hardly in a better position, and now competes for the tax domicile of foreign companies by offering bargain rates. That can also be said of Ireland, where many "British" and "American" companies are now resident.

Dog, as they say, eats dog.
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Is it possible to have a rational and enlightened discussion about the European Union?

Post by Ivan on Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:35 pm

In my opinion, the European Union is an enigma. It divides political opinion on both the left and right. It’s seen by the left as a corrupt, undemocratic vehicle of corporate collaboration on the path to world government, and it’s hated on the right because its bureaucracy and worker entitlements are seen as part of a socialist club and it’s claimed that EU regulations make it less easy to do business. This is a subject that can generate a great deal of heat but not always much light. My own opinion of the EU has swung from anti to pro to agnostic over the years.

Most UK opponents of the EU focus on the fact that as one of the wealthier member states, we contribute more than we receive. They tend to quote our gross contribution, which is about three times greater than our net contribution when grants and rebates are taken into account. They complain that much of this money pays for the outdated and wasteful Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), while a sizeable amount goes towards the Structural Funds which transfer money to poorer areas of the EU.

Another argument against is that the EU started life as the European Economic Community but has since become more political, covering even foreign policy and justice, with some of its supporters aiming for a federal Europe. The EU seems undemocratic, as it’s less accountable to the people than national governments tend to be (the present UK government being an exception it seems). Most EU decisions are made or shaped by the EU Commission, which is led by unelected commissioners and run by an appointed bureaucracy. The democratic element of the EU model - the European Parliament - has fewer powers than a national legislature and rarely influences EU decisions. In this respect, the EU is seen as undermining the nation state.

Supporters of the EU will tell you that 57% of our trade is with the EU, and up to three million British jobs (10% of the total workforce) are linked to exports to the EU. Opponents will say that the EU wouldn’t stop trading with us if we weren’t a member, but I suspect the trade might reduce. Because of our membership, 60 million customs clearance documents per year no longer need to be completed, cutting bureaucracy and reducing costs and delivery times. It's claimed that the EU has been able to tackle many anti-competitive practices such as cartels, monopolies, and excessive and unnecessary regulation.

With hindsight, it’s easy to see that economic union via the euro, without political union first, was going to prove problematical. Yet the euro was a great idea in theory for eliminating exchange rate uncertainty and increasing price transparency.

Many Europeans have shown a more positive attitude to the EU than the British have, but then we’re always slow on the uptake. We didn’t have a decimalised currency until 1971 and we still haven’t completely adopted metrication. We refused to join the EEC when it started in 1957, then begged for membership throughout the 1960s, eventually being allowed to join in 1973.

Supporters of the EU say that it’s helped create, in a continent previously torn apart by warfare, an area of peace and stability, where we can have our arguments around a negotiating table or across a debating chamber rather than on the battlefields of Europe. Opponents of the EU will claim that NATO achieved that. Supporters say that the EU is a set of highly interdependent countries with a need to find common solutions to common problems in a whole range of areas.

Opponents of the EU want a referendum on our membership because they think they would win it. To be fair, nobody under the age of 55 has had a vote on our membership, since the only referendum took place in 1975. That was two years after Ted Heath, who, like a typical Tory, broke his promise and took us into the EEC without our consent. Most supporters of the EU don’t want a referendum because they don’t want to change the status quo, and they’d probably argue that we haven’t had a referendum on whether we want to remain part of the UK, although the Scots will get that chance soon. I wonder how many of those who want a referendum on the EU are opposed to the Scots having one on their withdrawal from the UK? Yet haven't they been tied to the rest of Britain for over 300 years without being asked to approve of the arrangement?

So can we have a sensible discussion on our EU membership? I’ve got an open mind on this one, have you? Let’s have no misleading figures, no silly and stale slogans like ‘Evil Union’, and no speculative scaremongering about the catastrophic effects of withdrawal. Let’s see if we can shed some light on this widely misunderstood yet very important subject.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:44 pm

The European Union has a combined population of over 500 million inhabitants, 7.3% of the world population.

That means 500 million different opinions. Should be easy to have a sensible discussion, Ivan.

Possibly the unique aspect upon which everyone might unite is the profligate nature of the Brussels administration's expenses.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:58 pm

The embryo of the EU goes back further than the EEC or the Common Market, it can be found in the European Coal & Steel Community (ECSC) which was founded in 1950.

At the time the coal and steel industries were the two major industries of the industrialized world, but in essence the ECSC was about France and Germany, it was an economic treaty but it also had political intentions, it was all about ending the mistrust and suspicions between the two nations.

From the very outset and begining, the EU was all about the realization of what a war torn Europe had done to people, to nations, to families, to communities and to peoples way of life, at last politicians wanted to co-operate and end misery and suffering once and for all.

This is the European dream

I suppose that when the American civil war broke out, many at the time said that a United States of America wouldent work, that there are too many ideological and cultural differences, little did these people know that after that civil war the United States was stronger and better.

I am convinced, just as I have always been convinced, that sooner or later there will be a United States of Europe, and the current problems will be overcome, it makes sense for Europe to be united.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQCGrI46KwA
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:00 pm

The embryo of the EU goes back further than the EEC or the Common Market, it can be found in the European Coal & Steel Community (ECSC) which was founded in 1950.
I'd say it goes back even further, to the Benelux arrangement which came into effect in 1948. The treaty to establish it was signed in September 1944, just weeks after those three countries had been liberated from the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelux
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:16 pm

Opponents of the EU want a referendum on our membership because they think they would win it. To be fair, nobody under the age of 55 has had a vote on our membership, since the only referendum took place in 1975. That was two years after Ted Heath, who, like a typical Tory, broke his promise and took us into the EEC without our consent

Is it possible to have a rational and enlightened discussion about the European Union????? Er no, not when you can't help yourself and bring party politics into every argument or discussion. I notice you didn't mention Blair back tracking on his promised referendum though.....typical


So Ivan......can you have this discussion without party politics or is this thread another outlet for your anti Tory feelings

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:52 pm

blueturando. Tory broken promises are much in the news these days, and it does no harm to remind members that it's nothing new for a Tory to say the opposite of what he or she intends to do, as long as it wins them votes. Anyway, it sounds as if you want to bring party politics into the discussion with that tired and dishonest old chestnut about Blair's referendum, so fair enough.

At the 2005 election, Blair promised to hold a referendum on the proposed EU Constitution. This was a plan to repeal all previous EU treaties and start again. However, as it required the approval of every member country, and as within a month of Labour's election victory both France and the Netherlands had rejected the proposal, it was dead in the water. Had Blair then held a referendum on something which was already history, he would no doubt have been castigated for wasting taxpayers' money, and it would have been as absurd as when David Davis called a pointless by-election about something else which never happened. It really is typical Tory opportunism to try and make something out of that.

The bureaucrats in the EU came up with the Lisbon Treaty in 2007, after Blair had gone. Lisbon was just another add-on treaty, not a new constitution. I've seen on our previous forums plenty of differences between Lisbon and the old abandoned constitution, and even those who claim that they are intrinsically the same refer to 90% similarity - which means that they were not identical and again proves that there wasn't a blatant broken promise to compare with "no top-down reorganisation of the NHS".

Most of those clamouring for a referendum didn't want one on the technicalities of a treaty (or constitution) but on whether we should be in or out of the EU. Of course, Cameron did give his "cast iron" guarantee to hold a referendum specifically on the Lisbon Treaty, a promise on which, like a good Tory, he reneged. Which I think is where I came in!

Now is there any chance we can discuss the pros and cons of the concept of the European Union, so that if there ever is an in/out referendum we can all be in a better position to make an informed judgement? On this issue, I'm a 'don't know' these days.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm

There realy dosent need to be a political dimension to debating the subject of Europe, because Europe can be Liberal, Conservative or Social Democratic, the EU is not dominated by any particular ideology.

The "big three" ie Germany, France and the UK are currently all governed by Conservatives, its likely that France will switch to the Socialists, and who knows, perhaps Germany may switch from CDU under Angela Merkel to Social Democratic.

In the UK many Conservatives see the EU as been a socialist organisation due to the many laws and protections that have been adopted over the years to protect ordinary people, employment rules, laws governing how many hours a person can be expected to work, consumers rights, the rights of the individual, regulations concerned with health and safety.

Lets face it - Conservatives in this country dont like regulation, instead they prefer deregulation, a free for all, market forces rule ok, let capitalism take its course, in this country "employment rights" is a dirty phrase to David Cameron, George Osborne and the new Lib Dem converts.

I have never been able to understand how such things as basic standards which safeguard peoples basic welfare can be somehow political, surely is it not common sense and human to give your citizens minimum rights and basic protections.

Only in this country do Conservatives see such things as statutory minimum rights as been a hindrance, in Germany things are very different.

This is another reason why I am a Europhile, because the new Europe is for the people, rules and laws are made to benefit the ordinary man and woman, not the wealthy few or big business, I would suggest to the British Conservative Party to go and see how the Germans do things.



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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:46 pm

The trouble about having a rational discussion about the EU is that the damn thing won't stand still.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:37 pm

Ah yes, an honest debate about the reality of yet more state control (a lefty lovein) an unelected self help organisation that is forever looking for more ways in which to control every aspect of life. An organisation that whilst watching the EU community collapsing before it's very eyes and calling for more austerity cuts has asked for a 7% increase in it's budget. You really couldn't make it up. Yes let's have a debate.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Red Cat Woman on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:15 pm

Well its my own view that the Right wingers only wish it to be a money making club for big business. what they really hate is the fact its grown into something that has helped a great many working families. however, the right wing have spent so much time and money running it down that today people believe it.

There has been some fine policies that have come out of the EU in my short life time. not that anyone will agree with me. but then many people have no real idea what it does and what's more.. the UK press are not at all interested in telling them any good news that comes from it either. so its just impossible to hold any honest debate on this subject. as any debate that takes place ends up with the Right wingers come out with there inconceivable ideas that are quite frankly absurd.

still your quite right Ivan, as the left is also split on this subject, but not as bad as the Tory party.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:24 pm

Many of the problems of belonging to the EU can be explained by drawing the analogy with a large family gathering for Christmas. It sounds like a lovely idea, but you know it's all going to end in tears.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:30 pm

Especially when uncle alan starts kicking off coz aunty mabel got a slightly nicer looking roast spud and extra gravy! lol And I can still hear the screams that ensued from that game of monoply when uncle alan was caught with 5 counterfeit get out of jail free cards. I had to mop the blood up, it even stained the carpet! haha
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat May 12, 2012 11:42 am



One year on from a similar demonstration in Madrid's main square, "The Indignants" are staging a three-day demonstration against the economic crisis, against Politicians and against Capitalism's abuses.

One of the organisers, Noela Morenio, from Pamplona, said that although there had been tremendous support on the internet and in local groups, a street gathering of peaceful protest in the Capital was necessary to keep the issues before the Press and public.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 29, 2012 8:08 pm

Public Opinion all over Europe seems to be hardening in favour of expelling Greece from the Eurozone, also mistakenly referred to as a monetary union.

Should the Greeks return to the Drachma, their money would lose perhaps half its value, most European Banks would have to write-off colossal loans that would never be repaid, and the currency speculators would pick-off the next four weak-economy Countries in the following order: Portugal, Spain, Italy and perhaps Ireland. At that point reality would acknowledge that the Eurozone was no more.

Which would not be good news for anybody.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Wed May 30, 2012 8:48 am

Check out your savings at the moment OW, ask yourself could it get worse?

On the bright side cash is king if you visit Greece and the exchange rate is pretty nifty at present. Laughing

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 30, 2012 11:05 am

tlttf wrote:Check out your savings at the moment OW, ask yourself could it get worse?

Even the most risk-averse Pensioner has some difficulty in choosing a home for their savings right now. Banks and Building Societies demonstrated their reliability in 2008 and clearly still don't even trust each other. Deposits are "guaranteed" by the Government up to a personal limit of £85,000 but the same Government provides guarantees for National Savings as well as imposing austerity on everybody. Bank Rate has been at one-half of one percent for years, and the MD of the IMF wants that rate to be cut(!). Anyone who made a "last chance" investment in an Equities ISA in March, before the start of this current tax year, has by now lost 15% of their money.

On your suggestion, landy, I have asked myself that question posed above, and decided that Money is never going to be worth more than it is right now, so my advice to Savers would be to make hay while the sun shines.

If you've promised yourself a new car, a conservatory or a round-the-world cruise, buy it now!

We're all Sybarites together now.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:57 pm

Can you believe MEP Mary Honeyball (real name apparently) is still advocating the Euro as the currency Britain should have joined. How do MEP's get elected and do any of them hold down previous jobs prior to jumping into the trough?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:10 pm

Come the Revolution, be assured that MEP's will be among the first to kiss Mme. La Guillotine.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:04 am

Ah yes, there are some traditions worth keeping. Very Happy

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:54 am

I see Miliband has categorically stated that no matter what he will not hold a referendum on Europe. He has told 100+ labour mp's (that want one) that it won't happen whilst he's the leader.

Has he just given up on any hope of getting into the trough come 2015?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:10 pm

tlttf. Strange line of argument. Have the Tories promised an in/out referendum in 2015? Have the Liberal Democrats? Okay, there’s UKIP to pick up disillusioned Tories, but when it comes to general elections, the EU always seems low in people’s priorities. Jobs, homes, schools and the NHS are what interest voters, and though some might try and argue that the EU is detrimental to those matters, I doubt if many people will connect with the idea.

Anyway, who knows what will be happening with the EU by 2015? The euro will either collapse or there will have to be greater fiscal integration between the countries that use it. If the euro does collapse, who can say that the whole EU structure might not crumble too?

As to the next election, take a look at all the polls visible since 21st May on this site:-
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
Labour has been consistently ahead by between 8% and 16%, and with about 80% of cuts still to come and the economy failing to improve because Of Osborne’s crackpot policies, this government isn’t likely to become more popular in the next couple of years. The Tories haven’t won an election in the last twenty years, or even achieved more than 36% of the vote in that time, and my guess is that 2015 will see a bigger Labour landslide than 1997.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:32 pm

Good post Ivan, just amazed that nobody has picked up on my deliberate mistake regarding Miliband, when reality it was Cameron that stated it, does that mean there's a lack of research going on prior to posting? Very Happy

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:55 pm

just amazed that nobody has picked up on my deliberate mistake regarding Miliband, when reality it was Cameron that stated it, does that mean there's a lack of research going on prior to posting?
tlttf. Members should do research before posting their own messages. It shouldn't be necessary to check the authenticity of other people's posts, because we should be able to assume that they will enlighten discussions by telling us, in good faith, what their authors believe to be the truth.

It was quite plausible that Miliband might have ruled out a referendum on the EU, and as I was out of the country for twelve days, I haven't kept up to date with the goings on. I now understand that Labour might indeed promise such a referendum but campaign vigorously for an 'in' vote.

It is against both the rules and the spirit of this forum to deliberately post misleading information, and I'm sorry you chose to do so, whatever your reason. How can you expect members to take your messages seriously if you don't at least try to post the truth?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:15 pm

Tories like to use a bald untruth to wrong-foot their opposition. In Parliament last week, Sir George Young scolded the Labour Party for having introduced the fuel duty escalator.

That was a measure introduced in 1993 during a Conservative administration. The annual fuel escalator was set in 1993 at 3% above the rate of inflation.

On its introduction it added three pence to a litre of fuel and raised the tax burden on unleaded petrol to 72.8% of the total cost.

When the Conservatives left office in 1997, the escalator was at 5% and had contributed a 11.1 pence rise to the cost of unleaded fuel. Tax as a proportion of total cost stood at 76.3%.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2000/world_fuel_crisis/933648.stm
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:11 pm

Quote : "....just amazed that nobody has picked up on my deliberate mistake..."

Quite understandable, when appearing between so many 'accidental' ones which have been made over time... Very Happy
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Shirina on Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:58 pm

I've always railed against misleading, hyperbolized statements designed to convince a person to adopt a particular ideology based on false pretenses. In other words: Propaganda. In my country, the right-wing owns the airwaves, and if I had 48 hours in every day, I still would not have the time to counter the hyperbole and outright lies spewing from the Right like pus from an infected wound.

I've been looking into recent studies on how memory works ... it's part of my effort in trying to decode why people are so willing to believe in lies even when the truth is readily available. As it turns out, memory is easily influenced by social pressure. In one experiment, a group of people sat down at a table and told stories over dinner. However, five of the participants were told to lie to the sixth member, telling her that events did not happen the way she remembered them. In truth, the sixth person was quite accurate in her recollection, but the social pressure to conform to the other five members' memory of the same event caused the sixth person to change her account.

At that point, the sixth member began to not just say she believed the stories of the other five, but to actually believe the stories of the other five. In other words, she wasn't just saying she agreed with the other five just to fit in socially, she actually came to believe a series of events occurred that, in fact, did not occur. Those lies actually became a part of her memory.

In 30 days, that sixth member was asked to fill out a questionnaire about the events. This time, there were no social pressures - and she still picked all of the incorrect choices; the lies had become part of her long term memory, as well. The brain actually created new memory pathways.

It just goes to show you how propaganda works and why people succumb to it.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:34 pm

Sometimes one's personal safety can depend upon appearing to belong to a consensus.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astradt1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:47 pm

It would seem that Dave has done yet another U turn now saying that, 'He Is prepared To Hold Referendum On EU'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/06/30/david-cameron-eu-referendum_n_1640336.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The move comes a day after the PM risked a further rift with his own backbench MPs as he dismissed calls for a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union (EU).
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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