Welcome to Cutting Edge. Guests can see and read the contents of most of the boards on this forum but need to become members to read all of them. Currently membership is instant, but new accounts may be deleted if not activated within fourteen days.

If you decide to join the forum, please open your welcome message for further details. New members are requested to introduce themselves on the appropriate thread on our welcome board.

Members may post messages and start threads, but it is essential that they read our posting rules and advice before doing so. If you have any immediate questions or queries, please post them on the suggestions board.

After posting at least ten messages, members are able to contact each other and the staff through our personal messaging system.

This forum is administrated by Ivan and moonbeam and moderated by boatlady and astradt1.

Thank you for visiting Cutting Edge.

The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Page 5 of 26 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 15 ... 26  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
avatar
witchfinder
Forum Founder

Posts : 703
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : North York Moors

Back to top Go down


Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astradt1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:47 pm

It would seem that Dave has done yet another U turn now saying that, 'He Is prepared To Hold Referendum On EU'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/06/30/david-cameron-eu-referendum_n_1640336.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The move comes a day after the PM risked a further rift with his own backbench MPs as he dismissed calls for a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union (EU).

astradt1
Moderator

Posts : 955
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:54 pm

I understand that Liam Fox is prepared to go and renegotiate our membership of the European Union - as long as he can take a friend along with him.
Wink
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 6834
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:03 am

This may be the appropriate moment to remind Readers of the immortal line from Groucho Marx:

"I wouldn't dream of belonging to a Club that would have someone like me as a member!"
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Mel on Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:22 am

Excellent post Shirina. To me you have explained perhaps why so many people here in the UK voted against the Labour party. Propaganda works and the Tories are good at it as was Hitler, although that is another story.

Thank you for that post, I found your comments most interesting.
avatar
Mel

Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Impossible to have a rational discussion regarding the EU. To fully integrate there can be only one political entity otherwise it's impossible to set the monetary rate across different countries. If that was a working idea how come the USSR is no more? It would appear that Germany is forging ahead with a unity plan that failed them 65 years ago!

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:52 pm

It isn't difficult to make a case for saying that all the present problems of the Eurozone arise from the inclusion of Germany. Germany's economy has consistently been too strong for anyone else to keep up with. The zone only functioned for as long as the Chancellor was prepared to subsidise other EC members.

Now German voters are making a stand. With the inevitable result.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:08 pm

So the right thing to do would be for Germany to revert to the Deutchemark, if nothing else it would allow France to come out on top for once. Surprised

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:55 am

To understand why it is a good idea to be a part of Europe, you must understand two things, firstly that the business of trade is rapidly moving away from single nation trading agreements, this is happening all accross the globe.

Secondly, you need to have an open mind, a mind which does not simply shut down where the horizon ends near the white cliffs of Dover.

Take for example one of our traditional trading partners from the Commonwealth, I refer to Canada, the bulk of Canadas exports and imports are with the United States, and the level of trade within North America combined with the close proximety of the three * North American nations has resulted in a free trade agreement and free trade area (NAFTA).

The North American Free Trade Agreement means that business, trade and negotiations with Canada, Mexico and the US are all done via NAFTA, and it also means that Britains trade with Canada is done via the EU-NAFTA trade agreement, NOT via a UK-Canada trade agreement.

As time moves on, the natural progression of free trade areas like NAFTA will result in the free movement of goods, services and capital, a customs free zone is the obvious next step, people are allready talking about a single currency, its been discussed and not ruled out.

The EU and NAFTA are only two such regions of close co-operation, areas of free trade and of attempts to standardize rules, terms, laws and regulations.
There are many other regional unions which are progressing along at different paces, from the Gulf States to ASEAN to Latin America, there is talk and plans for political, economic and monetary union.

If the UK decided to do the reverse of what everyone else is doing, then where would it leave us ?, would we be vulnerable as a small, lone trading nation, think about it.

And secondly, why not have the vision for a united Europe, where is the common sense or the logic in 27 nations all neighbours with 27 different currencies and 27 different sets of rules and regulations, does it REALY make sense. ?

For how much longer is Britain going to be "the outsider"
avatar
witchfinder
Forum Founder

Posts : 703
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : North York Moors

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Polling suggests that if Government stopped telling us, "Daddy knows best" and did actually stage a referendum on continued EU membership, that the UK population would return a clear (60+%) majority for casting ourselves adrift.

Is everyone familiar with their lifeboat station?

avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:46 pm

Nice to see you back witchy. Why can't we have a free trade agreement with Europe, why should we have to import their laws? To trade in an open and fair market was the original intention when we first joined, we gave up a lot of national protection as part of the payment. Since joining what started as a trade agreement is now being pushed toward a federal Europe (does that mean we can get the same social benefits as the rest). One government doesn't fit all, we have different histories, different traditions and different languages (accepting of course they also speak English). If anybody believes that a grouping of 27 countries will live happily under one big political umbrella has obviously forgotten history and lost their senses. Personally I love travelling around Europe (they put EU laws in place when it benefits their own economy). Though being an Englishman (Yorkshire to boot) I want to live in England under English law (Just wish it was enforced more).

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:38 pm

When it comes down to your nationality or the flag, or what label is attached to you, or sovereignty, does it realy matter that much ?, if you could be well off with a better standard of living as a European as against been poor with a low standard of living been British, what would you choose. ?

The cost of replacing the British nuclear deterrant [ trident ] is currently estimated to be £20 billion, and the Conservatives are willing to pay it.
But imagine if the UK shared its nuclear deterrant with France, potentialy halving the costs and leaving upto £10 billion to either pay off the deficit or put into hospitals.

Imagine co-operating on everything from science and technology to defence and energy, think about the benefits to ordinary European people.

The question has got to be why do we have to have seperate nuclear deterrants, seperate nuclear power and energy programmes, we have the world most successful passenger plane, we have the European Space Agency and we have the worlds best multi-role fighter jet (typhoon), co-operation within Europe has led to some great things.

Broaden your mind - look beyond the white cliffs of Dover
avatar
witchfinder
Forum Founder

Posts : 703
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : North York Moors

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astra on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:06 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9378567/The-time-will-never-be-right-for-David-Cameron-to-hold-a-referendum-on-the-EU.html

Mr Cameron claims that 3.5 million British jobs depend on us remaining part of the European Union. This comment always goes undisputed. It is based on the number of jobs dependent on exports to the EU and assumes that leaving the union would mean no further business between us and the EU – an incredibly weak, illogical argument. In 2010, the EU sold us £50 billion worth of goods more than we sold them. In short, they need us more than we need them. There is no chance of Mercedes, for example, refusing to sell us cars if we amicably divorce ourselves from political union.

The EU is a Seventies solution to a Fifties problem. The world has moved on since the “Common Market”, with World Trade Organisation agreements guaranteeing trading terms. Countries like Norway, Switzerland and even Mexico have free trade deals with the EU. Trade will continue as it does now with consumers making their choices in the marketplace. We are the world’s fifth-largest trading nation and yet, incredibly, we are banned from negotiating our own trade deals around the world.
avatar
astra
Deceased

Posts : 1864
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : North East England.

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by biglin on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:07 pm

I think one of the great tragedies of history is that people often end up doing wrong things for good reasons.

When the EU was set up it was against a background of the devastation caused by Hitler and the Second World War.

Things are very different now.

It was also only six countries at the start.

Even when we joined I think there were only about nine member states.

Now my own view is that it is an institution that's outserved its usefulness.

It has IMO become a crypto-fascist organisation run by monstrously totalitarian types and is now apparently able to dictate which governments countries can have.

Yes, a referendum on the EU was promised by Blair, Brown and Cameron and none of them have kept their promise. That's because IMO they all buy into the system and know that any referendum would result in a no vote.

biglin

Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-07-07
Age : 39
Location : London and Yorkshire

http://biglinmarshall.proboards.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:57 pm

If you think Britain's economic situation is dire now, just imagine the situation that would follow a vote for withdrawal.

Nigel Farage as PM.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by biglin on Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:10 pm

Well, since most of our trade is outside the EU; since the member states would still trade with us if we were out just as they did before we were in; since if that happened it would almost certainly NOT be a UKIP government presiding over withdrawal I'd say the whole scenario of that last post is based upon false premisses!
The EU is a fascist conspiracy against the working classes and always has been

The sooner we get out of this unelected self-serving dictatorship the better!

biglin

Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-07-07
Age : 39
Location : London and Yorkshire

http://biglinmarshall.proboards.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:37 pm

most of our trade is outside the EU
Your opening premise is wrong. 58% of the UK's exports go to EU countries.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Europe/United-Kingdom-INTERNATIONAL-TRADE.html
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 6834
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by KnarkyBadger on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:40 pm

oftenwrong wrote:If you think Britain's economic situation is dire now, just imagine the situation that would follow a vote for withdrawal.

Nigel Farage as PM.

Truely terrifying!!! Farage is an odious little man.
avatar
KnarkyBadger

Posts : 94
Join date : 2012-07-30
Age : 38
Location : Gravesend Kent

https://twitter.com/KnarkyBadger

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by biglin on Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:28 pm

Ivan wrote:
most of our trade is outside the EU
Your opening premise is wrong. 58% of the UK's exports go to EU countries.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Europe/United-Kingdom-INTERNATIONAL-TRADE.html

No longer true. Most of our trade is now outside the EU.

I honestly can't understand why people are so enthusiastic about allowing this bunch of unelected fascists to dictate to us when we'd be better off in every way if we got the fat cat bureaucrats off our back.

biglin

Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-07-07
Age : 39
Location : London and Yorkshire

http://biglinmarshall.proboards.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:24 pm

QUOTE: No longer true. Most of our trade is now outside the EU.

Statements carry more weight supported by a reference to the source of such information, biglin. If it's not The Daily Wail, perhaps you could share it with us. Thanks.

If we're only to be concerned with opinion, which Country do you think is Britain's best customer?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by biglin on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:17 am

Best in the sense of quantity or quality?

My objection to the EU is that it is a fascist conspiracy against the working classes and has been working to impose a capitalist slavocracy on us for years.

Even if 99% of our trade was with the EU so what?

Morality is more important than economics.

If you want a vision of hell think back to Blair cuddling Gaddafi.

That summed up everything that's wrong with the functional and economic appraoch to politics.

To say nothing of how low the Labour Party was prepared to sink.

biglin

Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-07-07
Age : 39
Location : London and Yorkshire

http://biglinmarshall.proboards.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by biglin on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:20 am

In answer to your question, here are a few links at random proving that what I say IS true

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/theeu.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9410648/Britains-main-export-market-is-no-longer-the-EU.html

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CF8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsrt.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fbritain-exports-more-goods-to-nations-outside-eu-for-first-time-since-1970s-640024.html&ei=wAobUKviBaXK0QXI0IHIAw&usg=AFQjCNFDvSAGEDvwaX2MyThOoUcQCSP-fw&sig2=bfQLuW7Cx5RFdcVaNyzrwQ

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2175802/Export-boom-whisky-Rollers-helps-trade-trend-swing-outside-EU-time-70s.html

biglin

Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-07-07
Age : 39
Location : London and Yorkshire

http://biglinmarshall.proboards.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:42 am

the link to vernon coleman appears inactive

The Telegraph report quotes the notoriously inaccurate ONS to say that exports to Europe for the three months to May fell. (During a period of extreme instability for the Euro)

The google reference is to another Telegraph report suggesting that British Traders are seeking alternative markets in South America whilst the Euro uncertainty continues. That's a surprise, isn't it?

The final quote is the same report from a different medium.
"According to a report by the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), the UK has exported more goods to non-EU countries over the past three months than it did to its traditional main export market in Europe.
Over the period, some 51 per cent of British exports went outside the EU – a rise of 13.2 per cent compared with the same time last year. Meanwhile, exports to within the EU fell by 7.3 per cent.
Scott Corfe, of CEBR, said: 'This is the first three month period for which this has been so since the 1970s, we believe.’


Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2175802/Export-boom-whisky-Rollers-helps-trade-trend-swing-outside-EU-time-70s.html#ixzz22TjIUyA1
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:04 pm

(from another recent CEBR release):

"EU youth unemployment: 22.6% - Greece 52.8%, Spain 52.7%, Portugal 36.4%, Italy 34.3%, Ireland 29.2%, France 22.8%, UK 22%, Germany 7.9%"

That may be having an impact on the quantities those Countries are currently importing. Presumably the Office for National Statistics report at the end of August will assist.


avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:56 am

blueturando wrote:
Opponents of the EU want a referendum on our membership because they think they would win it. To be fair, nobody under the age of 55 has had a vote on our membership, since the only referendum took place in 1975. That was two years after Ted Heath, who, like a typical Tory, broke his promise and took us into the EEC without our consent

Is it possible to have a rational and enlightened discussion about the European Union????? Er no, not when you can't help yourself and bring party politics into every argument or discussion. I notice you didn't mention Blair back tracking on his promised referendum though.....typical


So Ivan......can you have this discussion without party politics or is this thread another outlet for your anti Tory feelings

Bluey,

To questions for you.

Do you believe that workers in any Western civilised workforce should receive a decent minimum wage ?, and should workers rights be sacrosanct ?
avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:58 am

biglin wrote:Best in the sense of quantity or quality?

My objection to the EU is that it is a fascist conspiracy against the working classes and has been working to impose a capitalist slavocracy on us for years.

Even if 99% of our trade was with the EU so what?

Morality is more important than economics.

If you want a vision of hell think back to Blair cuddling Gaddafi.

That summed up everything that's wrong with the functional and economic appraoch to politics.

To say nothing of how low the Labour Party was prepared to sink.

""My objection to the EU is that it is a fascist conspiracy against the working classes and has been working to impose a capitalist slavocracy on us for years"".

Would you mind elaborating please ?. ie when you say "us", who precisely do you mean ?
avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:26 am

Do you believe that workers in any Western civilised workforce should receive a decent minimum wage ?, and should workers rights be sacrosanct ?.

Of course I do Ivanhoe, but there is a problem. How do we make UK PLC competetive on the world market when other nations (including us) will just import cheap goods from countries like China?
You can have the minimum wage as high as you like but if there is little chance of growing British manufacturing, no one will earn this wage

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Shirina on Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:27 am

Of course I do Ivanhoe, but there is a problem. How do we make UK PLC competetive on the world market when other nations (including us) will just import cheap goods from countries like China?

Their business model is doomed to failure, and some smarter companies are beginning to realize this. A company simply cannot make a product for $0.10 per unit then turn around and sell it to unemployed or underpaid consumers for $5 per unit. Here is what someone at Forbes says:

I quote at such length because it is an extremely important point. Wages paid to manufacturing workers in China are not determined by the productivity of those specific workers. They are not determined by US wages, by the profits that Apple makes nor even by the good intentions of the creative types that purchase Apple products. They are determined by the wages paid by other jobs in China and that is itself determined by the average level of productivity across the Chinese economy.(LINK)

I call shenanigans on his assessment. The wage any company pays their employees is decided by the company itself, not by what every other company is paying. If they go by standard "market forces," then they choose to do so, but there is nothing stopping them from paying workers more ... well, except perhaps, lower profits.

Henry Ford figured out that making a product that your workers can't afford to buy isn't a good business model, and this resulted in Ford becoming one of the most successful automakers in the world - so much so, in fact, that Ford was the only auto company that did not need bailed out by the US government when the recession hit. China's economy is where America's was in 1910, and sooner or later, Chinese workers will begin protesting for higher wages and better working conditions.

But ... even if that does not manifest, companies cannot hope to survive by stripping away middle-class wages from the middle-class people, expect them to work for half as much, then turn around and sell them high-priced products made with cheap labor to maximize profits. Anyone with an understanding of elementary math can figure this one out, and some companies are bringing back jobs even if it means higher-priced labor. Perhaps they see the writing on the wall ... and those companies that continue the current trend? Well, they'll be filing for bankruptcy by 2020 (if not sooner).
avatar
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:32 am

If you want a vision of hell think back to Blair cuddling Gaddafi.
biglin. Which Blair did for a reason - he was persuading Gaddafi to give up his nuclear ambitions.

My vision of hell would be Thatcher supping tea with genial old Augusto Pinochet, and even running out with a present for him shortly before his plane left the UK. Nothing to be gained for the UK or the world - just the friendship of two vile fascist disciples of Milton Friedman. Water certainly finds its own level.

Is it possible to have a rational and enlightened discussion about the European Union?
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 6834
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:47 am

It really is time to put Mervyn King out to graze. Having failed to foresee the credit crunch of 2008, failed to control inflation for five years, and diluted the value of the Pound by printing money, he is now blaming weakness of the Euro for Britain's failure to achieve growth.

The Eurozone is in fact growing faster, so how is that to blame for our troubles? The blame lies with a Chancellor of the Exchequer who doesn't understand percentages, since he has just committed to making a "110 percent effort".
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:23 am

blueturando wrote:
Do you believe that workers in any Western civilised workforce should receive a decent minimum wage ?, and should workers rights be sacrosanct ?.

Of course I do Ivanhoe, but there is a problem. How do we make UK PLC competetive on the world market when other nations (including us) will just import cheap goods from countries like China?
You can have the minimum wage as high as you like but if there is little chance of growing British manufacturing, no one will earn this wage

Bluey,

A question. Western European countries have much higher minimum wages than ours, so how do you personally think they survive ?
avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:58 am

Which countries are talking about? France, Germany? Those countries seem to buy a lot more of their own 'well made' products than we do. As for the other countries....I don't think theyre doing so well. We don't really make anything anymore and when we did, many of the products were sub standard or these industries were blighted with strikes

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:40 am

blueturando wrote:Which countries are talking about? France, Germany? Those countries seem to buy a lot more of their own 'well made' products than we do. As for the other countries....I don't think theyre doing so well. We don't really make anything anymore and when we did, many of the products were sub standard or these industries were blighted with strikes

bluey,

Since Thatcher and todate, that's over 30 years, Britain has been a short term, low waged, insecure workbase. We have little or no workers rights, people are insecure in housing, jobs, wages, and pensions, and welfare provision, and this is basically because the party of the "right" which you uphold, believe in none of these things.

Running alongside all this, we have the highest house prices, including high private rents, we have a "low" income tax base", we have an unjust form of local tax, ie council tax, and all this while we as a nation care of right wing Government's including New Labour, have adhered to market forces.

All this came about over 30 years ago under Margaret Thatcher, and we have never looked back.

I am asking you, to read my first and second paragraph's, and tell me, if you could have one wish, how would you make Britain a better place to live and to work, and to retire ?.

How would you do it. ?

avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:07 pm

Ivanhoe......The problem started way before Thatcher. Many of our industries were uncompetetive and heavily subsidised. There are many reason British manufacturing failed and they include: The Unions, Governments and poorly made products.....(See British Leyland)

Thatcher does take a large part of the blame, but successive governments both Blue and Red and have failed to takle the issues....and don't seem to have any intention of doing so either.

As far as wishes go, well I would need more than a few to make Britain a better place to live, work and retire. I'm probably not the best person to answer this as I am one of the people who deserted the sinking ship many yeras ago

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:14 pm

blueturando wrote:Ivanhoe......The problem started way before Thatcher. Many of our industries were uncompetetive and heavily subsidised. There are many reason British manufacturing failed and they include: The Unions, Governments and poorly made products.....(See British Leyland)

Thatcher does take a large part of the blame, but successive governments both Blue and Red and have failed to takle the issues....and don't seem to have any intention of doing so either.

As far as wishes go, well I would need more than a few to make Britain a better place to live, work and retire. I'm probably not the best person to answer this as I am one of the people who deserted the sinking ship many yeras ago

bluey, where do you live now ?
avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:51 pm

The Channel Islands, but born and raised in the UK

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:03 pm

blueturando wrote:The Channel Islands, but born and raised in the UK

bluey, I admit that im pretty ignorant here so please tell me how things are done on the Channel Islands re- health, education, trasnport, and even pensions.

I assume the population pay income taxes ?, and local taxes ?
avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:07 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
blueturando wrote:Ivanhoe......The problem started way before Thatcher. Many of our industries were uncompetetive and heavily subsidised. There are many reason British manufacturing failed and they include: The Unions, Governments and poorly made products.....(See British Leyland)

Thatcher does take a large part of the blame, but successive governments both Blue and Red and have failed to takle the issues....and don't seem to have any intention of doing so either.

As far as wishes go, well I would need more than a few to make Britain a better place to live, work and retire. I'm probably not the best person to answer this as I am one of the people who deserted the sinking ship many yeras ago

bluey, where do you live now ?

bluey, German and French industry and manufacturing also receive subsidy and investment care of their State. Jobs are not left to the whim of market forces, there is regulation. So how in your opinion do they achieve this today. ?
avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:35 pm

Is it time to choose sides, yet?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:02 am

Ivanhoe.....For starters we stayed out of the EU despite a lot of Pressure from Blair for us to join. It was the only way for us to set the laws and policies that would benefit the local population.
I wont go into too much detail because it will bore you to death, but we have stronger employment and immigration laws here, laws that favour locally born people and long term residents over recent arrivals
The minimum wage is set at £7.00 per hour, but 97% earn more than this. Our top rate tax is much lower, but income tax receipts are much higher per capita than the UK.
Hospital is free, but doctors and dentist is not (except for pensioners) The unemployed get subsidised treatment.
The real saving is made on government spending. We have an indepenent scrutiny panel that oversees any major government spending. There is a lot more transpancy and far less waste

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:16 pm

blueturando wrote:Ivanhoe.....For starters we stayed out of the EU despite a lot of Pressure from Blair for us to join. It was the only way for us to set the laws and policies that would benefit the local population.
I wont go into too much detail because it will bore you to death, but we have stronger employment and immigration laws here, laws that favour locally born people and long term residents over recent arrivals
The minimum wage is set at £7.00 per hour, but 97% earn more than this. Our top rate tax is much lower, but income tax receipts are much higher per capita than the UK.
Hospital is free, but doctors and dentist is not (except for pensioners) The unemployed get subsidised treatment.
The real saving is made on government spending. We have an indepenent scrutiny panel that oversees any major government spending. There is a lot more transpancy and far less waste

bluey, Blair didnt taken the UK in general into the EU. The only way the UK is connected to Europe is via our £50 million a day funding into the EU, Germany as leading players in Europe, which we Britain arent, pay much more.

The UK doesnt have strong employment laws, because Blair woulfd not adopt the EU Social Charter.

The EU have higher income tax rates, the UK has low income tax rates, what's the top income tax rate on the Channel Islands ?



avatar
Ivanhoe

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:21 pm

The RATE of income tax is possibly of less importance than the efficiency of its collection. The small size of the Channel Islands relative to the UK makes tax-evasion difficult there, because everybody in business knows everybody else and it would soon become apparent if a Trader was doing surprisingly well.

One of the things to emerge from Britain's current economic malaise is that many of "our" Companies have their Head Office in a Country with a gentler tax regime, such as Switzerland or Ireland, or declare all their sales profits in a place like Luxembourg. Or the Channel Islands.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11527
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 26 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 15 ... 26  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum