Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

+41
polyglide
Redflag
Claudine
Chas Peeps
patakace
stuart torr
Penderyn
Dan Fante
David Head
skwalker1964
Tosh
boatlady
iamjumbo
blueturando
Papaumau
the sap
Frances Fox
Ivanhoe
KnarkyBadger
biglin
Mel
Adele Carlyon
Red Cat Woman
trevorw2539
Stox 16
atv
keenobserver1
sickchip
bobby
Charlatan
Phil Hornby
Phoenix One UK
Ivan
tlttf
astradt1
GreatNPowerfulOz
jackthelad
Shirina
astra
oftenwrong
witchfinder
45 posters

Page 9 of 25 Previous  1 ... 6 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 17 ... 25  Next

Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by witchfinder Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
witchfinder
witchfinder
Forum Founder

Posts : 703
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : North York Moors

Back to top Go down


The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Tosh Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:52 am

I have a feeling the centre is moving to the left, certainly outside the gullible south, as evidenced by the Tories continuing dire poll performance. If the south came to its senses, we'd never see another Conservative government, or even a Conservative-including coalition.

I really don't know what you mean by left, and the South is not gullible because they happen to disagree with your political vision. People now vote on issues rather than ideologies, the vast majority accept regulated capitalism as the means for producing wealth and regulated socialism as the means for distributing wealth. The war is over and the far right and left lost, and lost badly.


Tosh

Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:05 pm

".... the same way as Germany albeit with a different voting system .... "

Our voting system is certainly different. The Liberals were sucked into coalition in the trusting belief of imminent reform - and were unceremoniously blown out in bubbles by their Tory "partners" within a year.

The Sainted Thatcher was "elected to govern" by successive votes of 43.9% in 1979; 42.4% in 1983 and 42.2% in 1987 which even our cat understands to mean that more than half of the Voters chose somebody else.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Tosh Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:14 pm

The Sainted Thatcher was "elected to govern" by successive votes of 43.9% in 1979; 42.4% in 1983 and 42.2% in 1987 which even our cat understands to mean that more than half of the Voters chose somebody else.

Thatcher didn't invent our electoral system.
Tosh
Tosh

Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by skwalker1964 Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:21 am

Tosh wrote:Your obvious bias shines through, a change of mindset is required by both employers and employees, viewing mutual cooperation as collaborating with the enemy just about sums up the problem in our industrial relations.
The Germans can afford to protect their workforce from unemployment because they have a surplus not a deficit. I disagree the Germans protect their workers more than we do, their system is more flexible and employer friendly.

Perhaps. But I think it's more that the unions no longer hold the power that they once did, and the less powerful party can't afford to become too co-operative if the more powerful party will just take that inch and want another mile. And in Germany, of which country and its system I have extensive experience, it's a far more prolonged and expensive process to get rid of someone - and much more difficult to start in the first place.
skwalker1964
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Tosh Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:39 am

Perhaps. But I think it's more that the unions no longer hold the power that they once did, and the less powerful party can't afford to become too co-operative if the more powerful party will just take that inch and want another mile.

Non cooperation was at its worst when unions had too much power, and it was no coincidence that this attitude was at its worst in unions of nationalized industries. These unions had the luxury of being able to ignore the economic realities of the balance sheet, it did not matter if their demands caused losses or higher prices, the public would pick up the tab.

It is also rather naive to believe the upper echelons of the Trade Union movement had no ideological axe to grind, against any democratic government whose policies they did not agree with.

A few of my friends worked in the printing industry, and their attitudes to modern technology and modern working practices was simple, not on my watch. They were the most overpaid and pampered workers on the planet, and it took nearly 25 years for the industry to change, now just spread this dinosaur attitude throughout the union controlled industries and you have the sick man of Europe.

Union power still exists in the teaching union, the number of teachers dismissed for being poor at their job is less than priests, are we really suggesting that teachers are not part of the human race, and are virtually infallible ?

My father was a Civil Servant all his working life, in his own words you would have to shoot someone in front of witnesses to get sacked, and even then they would make you redundant.

In my opinion I would ban unions from the public sector and make strikes illegal, they are not really competing in the market place and a contract of employment with inflationary pay rises would suffice. Its not as if their conditions are being driven down by the market or by greedy capitalists.
Tosh
Tosh

Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Tosh Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:55 am

Workers are like children, they operate best under a carrot and stick principle, if you want a dysfunctional child then just employ one without the other, it does not work.

Britain in the 70s and 80s was being run by dysfunctional children, and Mother Maggie brought back the stick.
Tosh
Tosh

Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:07 am

Tosh wrote:-
the number of teachers dismissed for being poor at their job is less than priests
Any evidence to support that wild assertion? No, I thought not.

I would ban unions from the public sector and make strikes illegal
LOL. “Scratch a Tory and you get a fascist”, as Nye Bevan once said.

This thread is about the EU. If it’s going to degenerate into another discussion on Thatcher, kindly conduct it in the appropriate place:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t226-thatcher-changed-britain-for-the-worse
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Tosh Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:13 pm

18 teachers sacked in 40 years, that is less than 3 per decade, there are 500,000 teachers.....and 1 gets sacked every 3 years, these people must be angels.

Yet that is what is revealed by tonight’s edition of BBC TV’s Panorama, which claims that over the past four decades a mere 18 teachers have been drummed out of the profession for incompetence.

Back in the early days of the Blair government, the then Chief Inspector of Schools Chris Woodhead caused a sensation when he stated that some 15,000 teachers were incompetent and should be sacked.

Two years ago, the General Teaching Council’s chief executive Keith Bartley said there could be as many as 17,000 ‘substandard’ teachers among the 500,000 registered teachers in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1292046/Incompetent-doctors-sacked-earth-useless-teachers.html
Tosh
Tosh

Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:57 pm

LOL. “Scratch a Tory and you get a fascist”, as Nye Bevan once said

Any evidence to support this wild assertion Ivan?

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 57
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:06 pm

blueturando. My name isn't Nye Bevan, go and ask him. Oh, sorry you can't, he's dead - and his family, who didn't have £60 million stashed overseas, paid for his funeral themselves.

As fascism is the merger of state and corporate power, then Cameron and his cronies, hell-bent on handing everything in sight (even police dog handlers) to private corporations, are by definition fascist.
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Mon May 13, 2013 12:46 pm

In the 1997 general election, the Tories received their biggest hammering in a century. They’d been in power for eighteen years, so undoubtedly “time for a change” had some resonance, just as it did in 2010. However, the main reasons that the Tories were booted out were economic incompetence (spectacularly demonstrated on ‘Black Wednesday’), broken promises (“we will cut taxes year on year”), sleaze (when ‘back to basics’ turned out to be ‘bonk to basics’) and such divisions in their party over the EU that showed they were unfit to govern. Those four factors are in place again now.

Voters don’t like divided parties, and the way the Tories are tearing themselves apart over the EU at the moment should help to ensure that they stand no chance whatsoever at the next election. But what is it that makes so many of them so desperate to leave the EU? Writing for ‘The Sunday Herald’, Iain MacWhirter says that if you ask them, they give relatively trivial examples, such as compulsory seatbelts for children under the age of twelve and regulations on food standards, health and hygiene. Eurosceptics also mention the Human Rights Act and claim the failure to deport people such as Abu Qatada is something to do with the EU, which is rubbish. The Human Rights Act and the European Court of Human Rights are under the jurisdiction of the Council of Europe, an organisation of 47 countries which is quite separate from the EU.

I think there are two reasons that the Tories (and their UKIP sideshow) want to leave the EU. One is so that it’s easier to destroy the employment rights that the EU gives to workers, but the main one is to protect the interests of bankers and the City of London. As MacWhirter writes:

“The EU is in the process of constructing a fiscal and banking union because of the eurozone crisis….To finance all this and police the banks, the EU wants to cap bankers' bonuses and introduce a financial transactions tax on banks' activities. This money would go into an insurance fund to guarantee a future bailout is paid for by banks, not taxpayers. Many regard these measures as the very least needed to get banking back onto a stable and socially-responsible footing.

But the City of London's bankers are fiercely opposed to the tax. They don't want to lose their bonuses either….But a lot of the earnings of the City come from Europe and pulling out of the EU now would hand much of that over to Frankfurt and Paris. Anyway, do we really want to leave Europe just to make life easier for institutions such as Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland?”


The USA is opposed to British withdrawal from Europe, and Barack Obama has made his views fully known to Cameron. A lot of American firms have come to Britain to service European markets, and they don't want to find they are excluded from trade with Europe.

If these toxic Tories get their way, Britain will be denied the benefits of the single market, which has undoubtedly boosted prosperity. Trade within Europe has doubled since 1992, thanks to the abolition of tariffs and barriers to the free movement of goods and services in Europe.

Source used:-
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/why-the-tories-really-want-to-exit-europe.21040328
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Mon May 13, 2013 5:51 pm

Someone alleged that they overheard John Major say at the weekend, "I think this is where we came in."
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Tue May 14, 2013 2:36 pm

The Tories have descended into madness on Europe - Labour should leave them to it

Extracts from an article by George Eaton:-

Even now, as the Conservative Party descends into the depths of euromania, there are some on the left and the right who argue that it is Labour that should be worried. Don't the opinion polls show that the public overwhelmingly support a referendum on EU membership? True, but then the polls invariably show that, if offered a say on any issue, the voters always favour it. The salient point remains that just 1% of them regard it as "the most important issue" facing Britain (compared to apparently 90% of Tory backbenchers) and just 7% regard it as "one of the most important issues". The more time the Conservatives spend "banging on" about Europe, the less time they spend talking about the issues - the economy, jobs, housing, public services - that might actually help them win the next election.

For this reason, among others, Ed Miliband has been right not to match Cameron's pledge of an in/out referendum. To do so now would be an act of supreme political weakness. In this instance, little is required of the Labour leader other than to stand back and watch the Conservatives indulge in another bout of political self-harm.

Those commentators who declared Cameron's referendum pledge a masterstroke that would unite the Tories, scupper UKIP and revive his party's poll ratings were wrong on every count. Rarely has the Conservative Party looked less like "the natural party of government" and more like a sixth form debating society.


http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/tories-have-descended-madness-europe-labour-should-leave-them-it
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf Tue May 14, 2013 4:47 pm

Any party that refuses to deal with the EU concern that is worrying a reasonable % of the population is living in a fantasy land. Is trade with Europe good, why yes. Is control by Europe good, why no. Those that stick their heads under the bed end up with fluff up their noses. Very Happy

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Tue May 14, 2013 5:11 pm

The curious antics of the Tory Party this week are not designed to unite the Party, their purpose is to wrong-foot Labour, and coincidentally the Lib-Dem component of the (increasingly strained) Coalition.

"Ooh, look at them, if they're not voting for our Bill they must be opposed to the public having a say through referendum!"

Sixth-form debating ploy indeed.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Tue May 14, 2013 5:18 pm

the EU concern that is worrying a reasonable % of the population
Polling evidence says 7%. That's the same proportion of the entire electorate who turned out to vote for UKIP in the council elections this month. It's about the same percentage of people who think that Elvis Presley is still alive.

A pity that the Tories didn't think of holding a referendum to ask us if we wanted our NHS privatised. That issue concerns a lot more than just 7% of the electorate.
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Fri May 17, 2013 12:19 pm

EU cannot be serious on in-or-out question

Extracts from an article by Colin Drury:-

“The Conservative Party, as is its occasional want, is tearing itself apart over the EU. And now Cameron has promised a referendum on the whole shebang. In or out? Which means us lot get final say. Me, and you, and that bloke down the pub who can barely say his own name by two in the afternoon. If you ever wondered his views on Romanian farming policy, now’s the time to ask.

We should stay in the EU. Why? Not a clue. I think it because I do. I think it because my instinct is that there’s something remarkable (and remarkably civilised) about 27 countries overcoming centuries of conflict to realise that, hey, guys, if we stop brawling like drunks at closing time, we’d basically all be better off. My feeling is that it takes a special sort of small-mindedness not to see economic, cultural and diplomatic benefits from being one of lots, as opposed to the dude on the outside looking through the windows and hoping America wants to play instead.

I’m not an expert in the details, the subtleties and the nuances of international diplomacy and macro-continental economics. It’s not my job to be; it’s the government’s. It’s for it to research, to analyse and to make the right judgement in all our interests. Which begs the real question here. Not in or out. But why are we being given a say? See, a referendum is not a sign of democracy; it is a symbol of a leader shirking his responsibility, too scared to be resolute. I think we should be in Europe. I don’t think I should be making the decision.”


For the whole article:-
http://www.thestar.co.uk/features/columnists/colin-drury-eu-cannot-be-serious-on-in-or-out-question-1-5676627
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Fri May 17, 2013 12:22 pm

a referendum is not a sign of democracy; it is a symbol of a leader shirking his responsibility, too scared to be resolute.

Symptomatic of the stresses and strains in the Coalition methinks
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Sun May 19, 2013 4:55 pm

Denis Healey once said that being attacked by Geoffrey Howe was “like being savaged by dead sheep”. I think he got that wrong – does anyone remember what happened when Howe attacked a Tory Prime Minister back in November 1990? Now he’s launched a scathing attack on Cameron, saying that Euroscepticism is “infecting party soul”.

"Tory Party out of control over Europe", says Lord Howe

Extracts from an article by Daniel Boffey:-

Citing the intervention of President Obama, who last week championed reform of the EU over Britain's exit, Howe laments: "The Conservative Party now needs a US President to tell it what it once had the confidence to proclaim as common sense itself."

Describing a withdrawal from the European Union as a "very dangerous choice indeed", the peer says Britons have hugely benefited from greater competition, lower prices and wider choice, due to membership of the EU. Howe adds that much of the UK's inward investment depends on easy access to the £11 trillion EU economy. He writes: "Does anyone think that the UK's revival as a motor car manufacturing nation is based on the appeal of the British market alone to foreign investors?"

In a withering assessment of his party's long-standing preoccupation with Brussels, he adds: "This week has shown that the Conservative Party's long nervous breakdown over Europe continues, and what is essentially a Tory problem is now, once again, becoming a national problem, too." He says that Labour and the Liberal Democrats may need to bear the burden of retrieving the situation.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/18/tory-party-europe-lord-howe
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Sun May 19, 2013 6:50 pm

The Tory heartland is complaining that Cameron's proposals for same-sex marriages "were not in the manifesto"!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22585093

Oh, the Irony !!

This administration has perpetrated DOZENS of things that weren't in their manifesto. They are serial liars. Have the Local Tory Associations only just noticed?

oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by astradt1 Sun May 19, 2013 8:36 pm

Gay Marriage is the one issue not in the Tory Manifesto which upsets their gentle sensibilities....Privatising the NHS does not bother them.....
astradt1
astradt1
Moderator

Posts : 966
Join date : 2011-10-08
Age : 68
Location : East Midlands

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Mon May 20, 2013 7:46 pm

Much as we may feel flattered to have been directly consulted, a Referendum duplicates the vote which sent OUR representative to Parliament. If OUR MP is not reflecting our interests, what the Hell is he/she doing there?

oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Mon May 20, 2013 7:58 pm

Well, in the case of my MP, trotting round after that Pickles person, with a nose in a lovely shade of brown - don't know about yours.

Seriously, my idea is that we pay these clowns a tolerably good salary, and no end of perks, so they can become knowledgeable enough about the issues facing the nation to make informed and positive decisions in the best interest of their constituents.

With the best will in the world I couldn't expect to be as well informed as an MP with a team of researchers and daily access to senior figures in government - I've always understood that was why we had elected representatives.
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Mon May 20, 2013 8:16 pm

My MP is called Francis Maude, so enough said...... (and I don't stockpile petrol in my garage!) :affraid:

Makes me laugh to hear Tories demanding a referendum on the EU; I'd have liked one on the privatisation of the NHS, for which the Tories have no mandate, especially after promising "no top-down reorganisation of the NHS".

I wonder how many of those who claim that the EU is undemocratic also support an unelected hereditary head of state? Evil or Very Mad
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Mon May 20, 2013 9:18 pm

There is certainly very little consistency about their posturings and enthusiasms.
Typical amateurs if you ask me.
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Mon May 20, 2013 10:26 pm

"Amateurs" is one description. "Hypocrites" is another.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Tue May 21, 2013 8:51 am

That's a good word - but I didn't want to seem judgemental lol!
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando Wed May 22, 2013 2:52 am

a referendum is not a sign of democracy

When you have the 3 main parties all in agreement to signing up to EU treaties...Treaties that were tweaked a smidge just so they didn't have to have a referendum and the public being given no say what so ever since the early 70's...then I would say that was undemocratic.

If the EU is such a good thing for us then the YES campaigners, which includes all main parties should have no problem convincing the public to vote YES...Dont you think? Where is the democracy in NOT giving the voting public a choice?


Last edited by blueturando on Wed May 22, 2013 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 57
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Wed May 22, 2013 8:30 am

The simple fact is that the majority of the voting public is not well placed to understand the issues or to predict the likely outcomes of the change being proposed, not having a team of researchers nor access to disinterested sources of information - and often no time anyway to do the research. This makes them prey to the likes of Farage and his scare mongering tactics, and others of various political hues who have an agenda. The most striking and easily understood solution is not necessarily the right one, as no doubt you have learned in a lifetime of making smaller scale decisions in your own life.

We pay our elected representatives to understand the detail, to make decsions honestly and fairly in our best interest and to stand by their decisions and accept praise or blame if they get it right or wrong.

If they can't make the big decisions and deal with the consequences I'm not sure why they get the big salaries, generous expenses, subsidised restaurants and bars and time to develop lucrative second careers while in post.
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Wed May 22, 2013 12:31 pm

blueturando wrote:
a referendum is not a sign of democracy

When you have the 3 main parties all in agreement to signing up to EU treaties...Treaties that were treaked a smidge just so they didn't have to have a referendum and the public being given no say what so ever since the early 70's...then I would say that was undemocratic.

If the EU is such a good thing for us then the YES campaigners, which includes all main parties should have no problem convincing the public to vote YES...Dont you think? Where is the democracy in NOT giving the voting public a choice?

So sorry to see that Jersey appears to have sunk beneath the waves, blue.

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 About_guernsey_750_280

http://www.visitguernsey.com/about-guernsey
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando Wed May 22, 2013 5:00 pm

The simple fact is that the majority of the voting public is not well placed to understand the issues or to predict the likely outcomes of the change being proposed

But you do Boatlady? Are you and other well placed to say that remaining in the EU as it is now is the best solution for the UK?

Surely the arguments and facts for both for and against have to be explained to the British people and then they can make up their minds.

Hi OW....This looks like and Ad for Guernsey who are politically and financially in bed with Herm, Sark and Alderney. Jersey is separate, although there are talks of a coming together so to speak. On the larger map we are the bottom island of the 3 shown....and may I just add, not a part of the EU and have no problem with trading with EU countries. We are lucky enough to make our own laws Smile

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 57
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Wed May 22, 2013 5:42 pm

No, I am well placed to wish my government would make a decision in the interest of the country and then stand by it, instead of bowing to public opinion and promising a referendum which will divert attention from some more important issues.
If there were a referendum I would probably vote to stay in as I don't think the middle of an economic crisis is the time to be making giant changes to the economic environment that I for one couldn't begin to predict the repercussions of (as I said, I don't have a team of researchers to advise me)
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Mon May 27, 2013 5:01 pm

I have received written permission on Twitter to reproduce the following article by Richard Corbett (Yorkshire Labour MEP from 1997 to 2009):-

Boris Johnson and others claim that they want Britain to remain in the single market, but to opt out of everything else the EU does. But what are these other things? Why are they so objectionable?

The first thing to note is that Eurosceptics often complain about things that are nothing to do with the EU, but relate instead to the European Court of Human Rights. But this is an entirely separate body with separate membership, created by Britain and others after the war. Some Eurosceptics don't even know the difference, and others deliberately obfuscate.

So, having endorsed out the single market and set aside distractions like the European Court of Human Rights, let's look at what is actually left on the list of what we do with our partners at European level — and wonder what exactly Eurosceptics think they are objecting to!

Co-operation in foreign policy

This one is a red herring. At present, if EU countries all agree (by unanimity) a common line, they can act together. This can range from voting together at the UN, to agreeing joint trade sanctions against Burma and Zimbabwe, to co-operating on joint naval patrols off Somalia to counter pirates. But if countries disagree, they go their separate ways — as happened, famously, on Iraq.

So what's the problem here? Co-operation with our neighbours is a way to amplify our influence and share the burden. But it only happens when we want it to. If we don’t, we (or any other country) can stand alone, with no compulsion and no risk. So 'opting out' of this would be an empty gesture: we would simply close down possibilities, with no benefit whatsoever.

Co-operation on police and justice matters

We exchange intelligence with our neighbours, and we have set up shared systems to help fight crime.

This co-operation recently saw the return of Britain's most wanted fugitive from Spain, thanks to its centrepiece, the European Arrest Warrant. It also worked to get back one of the July 2005 London bombers from Italy. If there are problems with it, we should improve it, not walk away from it. Ditto for the police cooperation scheme, Europol, which is headed by a Brit.

In any case, Britain can opt out of this area without needing a negotiation or a treaty change. When the government said it was "minded to do so", a storm of protests came from police forces across Britain, the bar society, judges, the House of Lords, and others. The coalition is now deadlocked on the issue.

Co-operation on civil law

With around 2 million Brits living in other EU countries, why should we back out of the systems we've agreed so that their wills, divorces, child custody, health insurance and so on can apply across frontiers?

Co-operation on the environment

Pollution is by definition an international question. How could we possibly deal with it alone? The environment needs joint effort, not least in Europe and its common market, the world's largest single market.

Fishing

Fish have the unfortunate habits of swimming from one country's waters to another, so how on earth would we manage stocks, and tackle the problem of overfishing, unless we did it jointly? Granted, there have been a number of problems with this policy, but we could do nothing about them if we just left it to others.

Transport and other connections

Working together on road, rail, shipping, air, broadband, gas, electricity and other interconnections is a huge part of what the EU does. This is low-key work, but it's to obvious mutual benefit. What advantage would there be in leaving it?

Research and innovation

Developing cutting-edge technologies to improve health, manufacturing, the environment and so on is vital. But it’s also very expensive, and international duplication is wasteful. If we were offered an opportunity to share the costs through joint research programmes with other countries, why would we turn that down? Yet this is exactly what happens across the EU.

Erasmus student exchange scheme

What is it that Eurosceptics don't like about this popular scheme?

Mutual recognition of qualifications

Working out which diplomas from country A correspond to which qualifications in country B is important so we can avoid unqualified people being given responsibilities beyond their capabilities — sometimes with dangerous consequences. And when people are suitably qualified, they shouldn't need to re-qualify in each country at huge expense. This is important not just for people coming here to work, but also for Brits working abroad. Why would Britain want to back off from this system?

Helping less prosperous regions

When a common market was set up across Europe, it was recognised that some regions would gain more than others. So it was agreed to help those which lag behind. This was part of the deal for creating a common market in the first place, something we enthusiastically signed up to. And no wonder: British regions (especially the north of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland) have all benefited.

Agriculture

All industrialised countries subsidise their agriculture, some much more so than in Europe. It’s not like opting out of the EU would allow us to avoid this! In fact, having a common system across Europe is actually cheaper than having 27 competing and divergent national systems.

The Common Agricultural Policy is expensive, but its costs are steadily falling. Intervention in agricultural markets used to be over 70% of the EU budget. It will fall to under 30% over the next few years.

International development and humanitarian aid

Like joint research programmes, joint aid programmes avoid duplication, share the burden and are more effective. Again, why on earth would we want to walk away from these?

So the supposed agenda of Tory Eurosceptics ends up looking rather puzzling. If they really do like the common market, as they say, then it’s hard to see exactly what they don't like.

I suspect that, when you scratch beneath the surface, the things that these people most object to are actually the common rules for the common market — consumer protection rules and social standards, for instance. So, opting out of everything except the common market would not actually give the Tory Eurosceptics what they want. What they actually want is to opt out of a central part of the common market — presumably while keeping the rest. In particular, they want to opt out of the social chapter, the part of EU co-operation which covers workers' rights and social policy.

But this is never going to work. Sharing common rules is a large part of what it means to have a common market in the first place. No country is going to let one of its neighbours compete in its marketplace under a different set of rules from the rest, gaining an advantage simply by lowering health and safety standards or slashing the rights of workers.

So let’s not be fooled. The brand of Euroscepticism that's currently infesting the Conservative Party is really about undermining the rights of British workers. In other words, it’s a backwards step masquerading as populist anti-Europeanism — an attempt to turn back the clock and replace progressive social values with unfettered markets, lacking protections for the vulnerable.

http://www.richardcorbett.eu/opting_out
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Mon May 27, 2013 5:40 pm

Gulliver’s Travels was a controversial work when it was first published in 1726. In fact, it was not until almost ten years after its first printing that the book appeared with the entire text that Swift had originally intended it to have. Gulliver’s Travels serves as a biting satire, and Swift ensures that it is both humorous and critical, constantly attacking British and European society through its descriptions of imaginary countries.

Not a lot seems to have changed in 287 years.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Mon May 27, 2013 8:39 pm

But, sadly, we have no Jonathan Swift any more
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:21 pm

Weird that Belgium is amongst those that aren't transparent with their tax liabilities it is the "Land of the Control" after all, isn't it?

EU orders five countries to apply new laws on tax evasion
Source: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 01:47 PM
Author: Reuters


By Ethan Bilby
BRUSSELS, June 20 (Reuters) - The European Commission told five European Union countries on Thursday they must enforce new EU laws aimed at tackling tax evasion within the next two months or else face court action.
The EU's executive warning to Italy, Poland, Belgium, Greece and Finland's self-governing Aland Islands comes amid increased public anger about large international companies and wealthy individuals who pay little or no tax.


http://www.trust.org/item/20130620153601-xsjfd/?source=search

Lets have a referendum as soon as possible.


Last edited by tlttf on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot to provide the link.)

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:18 pm

Britain isn't big enough to control the Global companies who pay the smallest amount of tax they know they can get away with.

Neither is the European Union.  Nor the USA, nor China nor any other Administration acting alone.  Until the G20, or at a minimum the G8, reach agreement for concerted action the big boys will continue to evade responsibility.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by boatlady Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:35 pm

Lets have a referendum as soon as possible.

Not following your reasoning here tlttf - are you saying you think tax evasion is a good thing?
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:32 am

Not at all boatlady, I'm saying that as most of our laws are made by the EU and the EU is based in Belgium which is one of the countries that isn't transparent about it's tax liabilities now is a good time to walk away. How can they be trusted with our money. Our own government (whoever is in power) do a fantastic job of wasting our money without the help of the European Project.

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:54 am

Clearly we have become so inured to watching administrators wasting taxpayers' money that we hardly consider detailed comment to be worthwhile.  It's such a universal practice that moving into or out of a European Union is almost irrelevant, because each political change seems to add another accretion to the colonial-style tiers of Government.
 
A typical British wage-slave is working for The Treasury from January to April, only after that being able to exercise a degree of choice in spending some of those earnings. That spending will usually attract further taxation in the form of VAT.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:26 pm

tlttf wrote:-
the EU is based in Belgium
The EU is based in Brussels and Strasbourg (which is in France - I happen to be certain of that as I was there this morning), but so what? EU laws are neither Belgian nor French - they're EU laws.
 
Most of our laws are not made by the EU, that's a tired old UKIP lie. It isn't the EU bringing in a bedroom tax or the many other pernicious measures of Cameron's evil government; those laws are being made at Westminster, full stop.
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 9 Empty Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 9 of 25 Previous  1 ... 6 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 17 ... 25  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum