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The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

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Post by witchfinder Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Post by Ivan Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:33 pm

Redflag wrote:-
What the EU gives us while on holiday in a EU is just the basics in health care if you need to kept in hospital or need an operation the Green card is not enough to cover the serious problems so there you would need Insurance just like if in a NONE EU country no difference there.
That is completely wrong! When I travel to Germany, I do not take out any additional private insurance. If the airline loses my suitcase, it is liable for reimbursing me. My home contents insurance covers any valuables when away from the house. And my European Health Insurance Card ensures that I will get the same access to necessary medical treatment under public sector health care (e.g. a doctor, a pharmacy, a hospital or a health care centre) as nationals of the EU country I am visiting. I know the system works because I had to use it once.

The card also ensures that if I have to receive medical attention in a country that charges for health care, I will be reimbursed, either immediately or after I get home.

http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/the_eu_and_you/faq/health/index_en.htm

So that's a good reason for staying in the EU. I'm still waiting for a valid reason for leaving ....... headbang

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Post by oftenwrong Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:34 pm

Just to recap..  All this posturing by Cameron came about before the General Election when UKIP threatened to cause serious embarrassment to the Tory Party.  That fizzled out but THE REFERENDUM was already a commitment.

Withdrawing now from the EU would be a leap in the dark for Britain.  Nobody can forecast how low the Pound could be forced to devalue (remember Lamont and the 15% Bank rate?).  Nobody can forecast what tariff barriers will arise against British exporters.  Nobody can say what effect it would have on the economy of Ireland and nobody can forecast how much of the City of London would transfer to Frankfurt or Zurich (though not Hong Kong FFS).
For how long would Honda, Nissan, BMW-Mini and Siemens etc. keep factories in the UK?
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Post by Redflag Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:46 am

I agree with part of your post OW, nobody knows what would happen if the UK pulls out of the EU but if we stay in the EU rest assured they will want us in a closer bond so that we cannot have another referendum to bring us out of the & also we cannot demand reforms of the EU because the EU will never change because behind it is the big Corporations and big businesses.
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Post by oftenwrong Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:37 pm

Redflag, Socialist MEPs on the Left of the political spectrum form almost half of the elected EU forum:

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 16 300px-European_Parliament_as_of_June_2015.svg

    European People's Party (216)
    Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats (190)
    European Conservatives and Reformists (75)
    Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (69)
    European United Left–Nordic Green Left (52)
    European Greens–European Free Alliance (50)
    Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy (45)
    Europe of Nations and Freedom (38)
    Non-Inscrits (15)
    Vacant (1)
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Post by Ivan Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:37 pm

A prisoner to his party: David Cameron and his battle with the Tory right

From an article by Nicholas Watt:-

"The most accomplished Tory leader in a generation has, from the early days of the Conservative leadership contest in 2005, been an unwitting prisoner of the right. It was the right who bounced Cameron into announcing that he would withdraw the Tories from the centre right EPP grouping in the European Parliament. Scenting blood and aided by the rise of UKIP, the right exerted relentless pressure on Cameron, who was eventually forced to concede in 2013 to an in/out EU referendum.

Cameron had only wanted to hold more limited EU referendums. In opposition he pledged to hold one on the Lisbon Treaty and alarmed the right when he abandoned this promise once the treaty became legally binding after its full ratification. He persuaded the Liberal Democrats to back a new law which triggers a referendum if the UK is asked to transfer further sovereignty to Brussels.

Cameron always regarded a referendum on whether Britain should remain a member of the EU as a step too far – he even whipped his own MPs in his first year in office to oppose such a move. But he found himself slowly boxed in and eventually announced in January 2013, in his speech at the London headquarters of Bloomberg, that he would hold a referendum. Once the referendum genie was out of the bottle it could never be put back in, as he embarked on a process that he has never been able to fully control.
"

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/17/prisoner-party-david-cameron-battle-tory-right
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Post by Redflag Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:31 pm

boatlady wrote:Or Mr Corbyn

With what the Tories have on offer boatlady for me it would be Jermy Corbyn EVERY TIME.
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Post by Claudine Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:00 pm

It looks to me like the Tory blood-letting will be beginning on Friday as of tomorrow. I'm wondering about the fate of IDS should Mr Cameron prevail in all this.
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Post by Ivan Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:38 pm

A message from Alan Johnson

"Back in 1975 I voted in the first European referendum. I voted for Britain to be part of Europe, and it is a decision I have never regretted. A lot has changed in the last 40 years, but for me the reasons for progressives to join the fight to keep Britain in Europe remain the same.

It is about British businesses. Businesses that rely on Europe for exports worth £227bn a year. But it is also about rights for British workers in those businesses: minimum paid leave, rights for agency workers, paid maternity and paternity leave, equal pay and anti-discrimination laws. And it is about Britain’s global influence. In this increasingly interdependent world, we can achieve more by working with Europe than we ever could alone. These values are at the core of the Labour Party, which is why there is no progressive case for Britain to leave.

Our first aim was to unite the Labour movement. We now have 214 out of 232 Labour MPs signed up to this campaign, including the entire shadow cabinet. We expect affiliated unions to demonstrate their support now that attempts to interfere with the social dimensions of the EU appear to have been abandoned in Cameron's renegotiation. At our conference, we were united, making it clear that Labour ‘supports the membership of the EU as a strategic as well as an economic asset to Britain and … approves of UK membership of the EU’. Conference was clear that winning this referendum is crucial to a stronger, safer, more prosperous Britain
."

http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2016/02/15/a-message-from-alan-johnson/
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Post by Ivan Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:56 pm

Brexit campaigners have conceded UK outside the EU wouldn’t have access to the single market

From an article by Will Straw:-

"The single market is central to our country’s economic future. This ongoing debate about the UK and Europe is not whether we would trade with the EU, but the terms on which that trade would be conducted.

Currently, as a full member of the EU’s single market, Britain benefits from having no tariffs on our trade and having a seat at the table when trading regulations are set. This increases UK-EU trade since trade barriers are reduced, which enables British-based businesses to expand in their nearest market and increase employment. This increases competition, which drives innovation and lowers prices. And this harmonises regulations, which lowers the overall burden of regulation on businesses. There is simply no alternative trading model which delivers these benefits to the same extent. Such is the attraction of the single market that it is a primary reason for foreign investment in the UK.

If we follow Nigel Lawson’s argument, we may get a trade agreement covering some goods, but we would likely pay tariffs on others, which would push up costs of imports for businesses and therefore consumers, and the costs of exports, which would hit demand for British goods. Even if we had a free trade agreement with the EU, we would not be in the room when our competitors were determining the terms of trade, for example the standards that products need to meet to enter the European market. Not only would that be bad for British business, but it would hardly be a boost for British sovereignty: we would go from rule maker to rule taker
."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12163008/Brexit-campaigners-have-conceded-UK-outside-the-EU-wouldnt-have-access-to-the-single-market.html
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Post by Redflag Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:33 am

IVAN There are fear stories coming out from both sides of the argument, I think its up to the individual to witgh up the pros & cons and then come to a decision.
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Post by Redflag Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:43 am

oftenwrong wrote:QUOTE: This is not about "national interest", its about the interests of the whole of Europe

A noble sentiment, but how many people are so altruistic?  Many believe that Charity begins at home, so that anything which adversely impacts on the family is to be suspected.  I happen to believe that membership of the EU is ultimately to Britain's advantage - but not at any cost.

All 27 members of the EU will be looking after their own interests first, and anyone who thinks differently hasn't been following events since 2008.

I am one of those thatbelieves that "Charity begins at Home" OW, and instead of sending all that money to the EU as our membership we could use that for any number of things that will benefit the people of the UK which could help our steel Industries which is in dire straits at the moment not unless you want our buildings (all types) built with cheap chineze CRAP.
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Post by oftenwrong Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:14 pm

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Post by bobby Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:42 pm

Red could you explain why being the carbuncle on the edge of Europe seems so advantageous.
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Post by Redflag Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:58 am

Bobby This is something you will have to work out for yourself, just as I did research what and how the EU does to pull the strings of the UK. I have put some of my reasons for wanting to leave the EU on another thread in this part of CE, and NONE of my reasons are too do with migrants or immigration.

I would hope you would read my reasons and allow me to have my own opinions, there are some Labour MPs that agree that we should leave the EU Kate Hoey is just one of them. Maybe you should watch todays program " Sputnik" on the RT channel and listen to the first part of that show and listen to Dr Gill and maybe you will feel ashamed of our Labour parties hand in the privatization of OUR NHS by Blair & Brown (this was started in 1988 by Tory MP Oliver Letwin) but is still been carried on by our shadow Health team today.
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Post by polyglide Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:27 am

When even families cannot agree, villages cannot agree on wether a tree should be felled, politicians cannot agree on even minor problems, along with many other disagreements, often over minor isssues in every aspect of life, can anyone think that Nations can come to any long standing agreement when all the differences involved are taken into consideration?.
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Post by Ivan Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:37 pm

there are some Labour MPs that agree that we should leave the EU Kate Hoey is just one of them.
Redflag. You really are scraping the barrel when you keep citing Kate Hoey as some sort of justification for supporting Brexit. She’s the foxhunting, former chairperson of the Countryside Alliance who is most definitely in the wrong party and should have been kicked out years ago. At the latest count, 214 of the 232 Labour MPs have declared that they will support us remaining in the EU, and below is what Jeremy Corbyn had to say to the Welsh Labour conference this morning (this is a verbatim report not subject to our usual copyright safeguards):-

Labour will be campaigning for Britain to stay in. It is due to the role Labour has played in Europe that we have delivered rights at work, rights to minimum paid leave, rights for agency workers, paid maternity and paternity leave, equal pay and anti-discrimination laws, and protection for the workforce when companies change ownership. And it was Labour – our excellent MEPs in partnership with trade unions - that made sure Cameron’sattempt to diminish workers’ rights was kept off his EU negotiations agenda. We will be running the ‘Labour In for Britain’ campaign because our case for being in Europe is about delivering a better Britain for workers and consumers.

Despite the fanfare, the deal that David Cameron has made in Brussels on Britain’s relationship with the EU is a sideshow, and the changes he has negotiated are largely irrelevant to the problems most British people face and the decision we must now make. His priorities in these negotiations have been to appease his opponents in the Conservative Party. He has done nothing to promote secure jobs, protect our steel industry, or stop the spread of low pay and the undercutting of wages in Britain.

Labour’s priorities for reform in the EU would be different, and David Cameron’s deal is a missed opportunity to make the real changes we need. We will be campaigning to keep Britain in Europe in the coming referendum, regardless of David Cameron’s tinkering, because it brings investment, jobs and protection for British workers and consumers.

Labour believes the EU is a vital framework for European trade and co-operation in the 21st century, and that a vote to remain in Europe is in the best interests of our people. We want progressive change in Europe to make the EU work for working people. That includes the strengthening of workers’ rights, putting jobs and sustainable growth at the heart of EU economic policy, democratisation and greater accountability of EU institutions and a halt to the pressure to privatise public services. Cameron’s deal will do nothing to address those issues.

His ‘emergency brake’ on migrants’ in-work benefits is largely irrelevant too. There is no evidence that it will act as a brake on inward migration. And taking benefits off low-paid migrants won’t put a penny in the pockets of workers in Britain, or stop the undercutting of UK wages through the exploitation of migrant workers. The issue the Tories do not address is the low wages and the way employers systematically undercut industry-wide agreements.

We will be standing up to the xenophobia of UKIP. Attacking Europe or demonising immigrants doesn’t
increase anyone’s pay, it doesn’t build a single home, it doesn’t treat a single patient, or provide a single child with a free school breakfast. Theirs is a vision of despair, a mantra of hate and fear, and Labour will never pander to it
.”
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Post by astradt1 Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:55 pm

With the Britex groups claiming they want to recover control of British law making and borders, we have an idea of how they intend to secure the borders but when, if ever, are they going to be honest and lay out the list of which EU 'imposed' laws they want to see repealed?
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Post by Ivan Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:18 pm

I am one of those that believes that "Charity begins at Home"
Redflag. Real charity doesn’t stay at home, but let’s not trade clichés. Britain’s contribution to the EU has nothing to do with charity. It buys us membership of the largest free trade area the world has ever seen, and we get back 40% of our contribution in grants and rebates, but Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan never point that out. Even overseas aid doesn’t usually amount to charity, but a way of buying influence or selling our exports. In the same way, EU funds are used to make poorer member countries more prosperous and more productive, so that they can trade with the rest of us. There are similarities with the way in which Henry Ford paid his workers well above the going rate, so that they could afford to buy his cars!

The reason our steel industry is on its knees is because of Tory policy, not the EU. Osborne is always pandering to the Chinese and buys their cheap, inferior steel. He couldn’t care less about northern steel workers, because most of them don’t vote Tory. So much for his ‘northern powerhouse’; what he's really creating is a ‘northern poor house’.

If we didn’t belong to the EU, we would still no doubt want to send 51% of our exports to it. In which case, we would still need to be part of the EEA and still have to contribute to the EU budget, yet we'd have no say in how it’s spent. We’d still have to adhere to EU trading specifications (such as oven gloves must be able to withstand a temperature of 200 degrees), but have no say in how they’re formulated. Leaving the EU is just the worst of both worlds, it’s a crackpot idea.
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Post by Phil Hornby Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:44 pm

One only has to look at the line-up of those wishing to leave the EU to have at least some doubts as to the wisdom of it :

Gove; Duncan Smith; Grayling, Patel; Farage...need I go on?

I suspect that Boris Johnson would love to join them, but will not dare to risk the damage to his political ambitions by being seen to challenge Cameron. But he is, naturally, waiting for his opportunity to make a Presidential Announcement to the waiting nation.

Has any of the past few days been about anything but the egos of the  big Tory beasts...?
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:51 pm

Nothing changes

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Post by Ivan Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:25 pm

Frances O’Grady, TUC general secretary, writes:-

Cameron’s aspiration to weaken workers’ rights was thwarted by intense lobbying by trade unions across Europe. When it became clear that he could not win French or German support, rather than face humiliation the demand was dropped. Some business groups have long complained about EU ‘burdens’, such as having to treat agency workers equally with permanent staff and a maximum 48-hour working week. Cameron’s bid to court favour with them would have come at high price.

This early episode in the renegotiation drama gives a taste of what the British government would do if freed from the rules of EU membership. Many vital workplace benefits the EU has given us – paid holidays, extra maternity rights and better conditions for part-time workers – will be at risk. Many Tories would welcome the opportunity to roll back employment protections that come from the EU. After all, this government has already started to attack workplace rights by bringing in big fees to take employers to a tribunal and reducing protection against unfair dismissal. Leaving the EU could also threaten good jobs – particularly in sectors like manufacturing which depend heavily on easy access to the EU market.

Presenting a case for membership based purely on benefits to business risks alienating large parts of the electorate. And scapegoating migrant workers for all of British workers’ ills won’t wash either. Migrant workers aren’t to blame for lousy pay and undercutting. The employers who exploit them – and governments who let them get away with it – are
.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/20/panel-response-will-david-camerons-deal-keep-britain-in-the-eu
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:52 pm

When you see who wants to leave the EU, I'm not sorry to be on the other side ......

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Post by Redflag Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:51 am

I am on the side of the REAL people that want to leave the EU, because I believe WE the people of the UK should be ELECTING the people that make our laws not a crowd of BUREAUCRATS that are unelected but CHOSEN by people within the EU.
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Post by Ivan Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:04 am

We elect MEPs to the European Parliament. We send ministers from our allegedly democratically-elected government to the Council of Ministers. That same government appoints a European Commissioner. Bureaucrats aren't, by definition, elected by anyone, either in the EU or the UK. The EU - which some people seem to forget we are a part of - is responsible for about 15% of our laws, not the 75% which liars such as Farage and Hannan repeat endlessly.

It could be argued that the EU is more democratic than the UK, with its hereditary head of state and its bought House of Lords. And then there is the FPTP voting system, which gave one party only a single MP for 3.88 million votes, while the Tories can get a majority of the seats in the House of Commons with the support of only 36.9% of those who voted. Under that system, we 'elect' those who make 85% of our laws.
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Post by Ivan Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:24 pm

Redflag wrote:-
There are also two treaties going through the EU at the moment, TTP & TTIP, neither of which will benefit the UK

We can't protect ourselves from TTIP by leaving Europe

From an article by Samuel Lowe:-

"I’m no fan of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), the massive free-trade agreement currently being negotiated by the US and EU. I worry that it will increase the ability of exporters and investors to unduly influence and undermine our environmental, health and social protections. Indeed, it already has. Nevertheless, claims that the threat of TTIP means we should vote to leave the EU are bewilderingly myopic.

The deregulatory threat of Brexit far outstrips that of TTIP. Much of the pro-Brexit camp is promising victory parties lit by bonfires of so called ‘red tape’. For many of them, the EU’s high environmental and consumer standards have long been seen as a drag on competitiveness, and an explicit reason to leave. (Remember: all that matters is that companies are allowed to produce products cheaply. Your desire to breath clean air, drink clean water and consume safe products is irrelevant.)

The UK has long been one of the biggest drivers of deregulation within the EU. Cameron claims that TTIP was his idea in the first place, and promised to give it a 'rocket boost' after the G20 summit. When the European Commission, swayed by public criticism, started to waver on one of the most controversial aspects of TTIP – the bit that allows a multinational company to sue a government if it dares undermine said company’s ability to profit – the UK got other member states together to tell the Commission they wanted it kept in
."

For the whole article:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-we-cant-protect-ourselves-from-ttip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html
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Post by Ivan Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:24 am

Two weeks would seem to be a long time in Tory politics...... Rolling Eyes

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 16 Boris_10
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Post by Redflag Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:08 am

Ivan wrote:We elect MEPs to the European Parliament. We send ministers from our allegedly democratically-elected government to the Council of Ministers. That same government appoints a European Commissioner. Bureaucrats aren't, by definition, elected by anyone, either in the EU or the UK. The EU - which some people seem to forget we are a part of - is responsible for about 15% of our laws, not the 75% which liars such as Farage and Hannan repeat endlessly.

IVAN The MEPs are the only ones that are elected by ALL people within the EU, BUT the Commissioners are CHOSEN and they are the ones that think up the LAWS for all of the EU and there is no come back on these COMMISSIONERS we can not get rid of them they are FACELESS BUREAUCRATS.
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Post by Redflag Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:18 am

Wrong Ivan if we leave BEFORE this treaty is signed we can not be included in it, but if we are still in the EU it will affect us for 20 years even if we come out at a later date.

If people think things are bad at the moment if we are still in the EU when TTIP is brought in we will have NO public services at all because already USA private health companies have there hands on OUR NHS already and I can bet these big American Corporations are rubbing there hands with glee if they do not get the contracts they can always take our gov't into there little private court and SUE for the loss of PROFITS just like they have at the moment with 23 different countries.
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Post by Redflag Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:16 am

With just a few days into the kick off for the 23rd of June and the remain side has came out quoting WW1 & WW2 if I remember my history lessons correctly the reasons for both wars was Germany wanting too DOMINATE Europe including the UK.

Gemany could not rule us by attacking the UK and Europe by land air & sea, so now they are trying to use money which will attract the greedy, so they try by attacking our weaknesses MONEY, and with so many big businesses and huge Corporations got caught up in the huge fishing net.

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Post by oftenwrong Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:46 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:One only has to look at the line-up of those wishing to leave the EU to have at least some doubts as to the wisdom of it :

Gove; Duncan Smith; Grayling, Patel; Farage...need I go on?

....Has any of the past few days been about anything but the egos of the  big Tory beasts...?


British pound to euro rate (GBP/EUR) at the lowest conversion rate since late 2014, but where next for the Sterling against the single currency and US dollar?

The British pound (GBP) slipped sharply in the red against a basket of global currencies after the weekend close, including the EUR, USD, AUD, NZD, CAD and the ZAR.

The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, shocked the markets today by announcing that he will campaign for the UK to leave the European Union, a move which has seen GBP tumble into negative territory against EUR and the USD.

http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/news/14769/gbpeur-gbpusd-weekly-pound-euro-dollar-rate-forecasts-2016.html
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Post by Phil Hornby Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:00 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:

I suspect that Boris Johnson would love to join them, but will not dare to risk the damage to his political ambitions by being seen to challenge Cameron. But he is, naturally, waiting for his opportunity to make a Presidential Announcement to the waiting nation.


Hornby also said the above - and was wrong!

Accordingly, I am working on my resignation speech ...
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Post by Ivan Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:59 pm

Free spirits? The Brexit brigade are just another bunch of elitists

From an article by Polly Toynbee:-

The line-up of outs is essentially a gallery of mavericks, self-promoters, lone wolves and fantasists from the right, with a smattering of those types from elsewhere. Duncan Smith, Grayling and Gove are not a heart-warming sight. Nor is Murdoch’s anti-BBC appointee, John Whittingdale. Priti Patel, employment minister and coming Brexit star, co-authored ‘Britannia Unchained’, castigating British workers as “the worst idlers in the world”.

The handful of Labour leavers include Kate Hoey, as eccentric as can be – pro handguns, hunting and grammar schools. As for Frank Field, he’s never happier than opposing his party with an air of above-the-fray martyrdom. Boris Johnson is the master-builder of the image of free spirits with consciences, deflecting every lie, every gaffe, dishonesty and U-turn with some self-deprecating metaphor.

Jeremy Corbyn has opted for in. Most unions are for in. Anyone on the left should shudder at the nature of the country we will become after a Brexit. Scotland will be gone, and little England will be ruled into the foreseeable future by out Tories. It is they who will conduct negotiations on UK withdrawal. with an angry EU driving tough terms to discourage others. Why would they be generous when half our trade depends on them, but a small fraction of theirs depends on us?

The outs extol escape from human rights restrictions and from the “red tape” of EU social and working rights. If migration is the issue that swings voters to leave, consider how a Brexit government would turn against the foreign-born: unfettered by human rights, Britain could become very nasty indeed.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/23/brexit-elitists-out-david-cameron
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Post by Ivan Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:35 pm

Redflag. A bureaucrat is an official in a government department, basically someone who works by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment. European commissioners are not bureaucrats, most if not all of them are politicians. For example, Leon Brittan, Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson were European commissioners.

The EU is arguably more democratic than the UK. MEPs are elected by proportional representation, UK MPs are voted in under the vagaries of first-past-the-post. One EU commissioner is appointed by each of the 28 democratically-elected national governments, unlike our House of Lords, where seats are regularly bought by generous donations to the Tories. The Council of Ministers consists of politicians – not bureaucrats – who have been elected in their own countries. The Commission President, currently Jean-Claude Juncker, is proposed by the Council of Ministers and elected by the already elected MEPs in the European Parliament. Unlike the UK’s head of state, he or she doesn't drop into the role by accident of birth.

I respectfully suggest that when you are in a hole you should stop digging. Can you offer us one valid reason for leaving the EU? You haven’t done so yet.
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Post by Ivan Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:45 pm

Redflag. Samuel Lowe, a trade campaigner at Friends of the Earth, is quite right. We can’t protect ourselves from the TTIP by leaving the EU. If you had bothered to read his article before shouting “wrong”, you’d have seen that the Tories are even more in favour of TTIP than the rest of the EU, and Cameron even claims that it was his idea! His government argues that TTIP could add £10 billion to the UK economy, and he talks of putting “rocket boosters” behind talks to secure the deal. So in or out of the EU, the TTIP will affect us while the Tories remain in power. And if Brexit happens, Scotland will leave the UK as sure as night follows day, after which the Tories will be even more entrenched in their ‘little England’.

I suppose you think Mr Lowe is wrong when he says: “If we are to tackle the true global issues, such as climate change, it is not enough to plough a lone furrow”? And the TUC general secretary is also wrong when she writes how “many Tories would welcome the opportunity to roll back employment protections that come from the EU?” Unite the union is wrong, the leaders of the Labour Party, the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems are wrong, and so is Caroline Lucas. Ed Miliband supports staying in the EU, as do at least 214 of the 232 Labour MPs. David Miliband tweeted that the case for Remain is “overwhelming”, adding that there is “no security in isolation, no power without allies”. Can you think of any other issue that would unite many unions and bosses, and on which even Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair agree? Don’t you think you are seriously out of step with the labour movement?
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Post by Ivan Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:00 pm

Redflag wrote:-
if I remember my history lessons correctly the reasons for both wars was Germany wanting too DOMINATE Europe including the UK.
You don’t remember correctly. The First World War was triggered by the assassination of an Austrian archduke, which brought two alliances into play – Germany, Austria-Hungary and Italy on one side, with Britain, France and Russia on the other. Germany had wanted some colonies in Africa (Britain and France had theirs already), and an arms race developed between these powers. That was as much the fault of Britain as the Germans, whose Kaiser did not have any plans to dominate Britain and replace his cousin on the throne.

Germany was bankrupt after the First World War, and for some daft reason, Britain and France thought they could make a destitute country pay for the conflict. The resulting impoverishment, coupled with a global financial crash which started in the USA in 1929, provided the conditions for extremism to flourish. The Nazis came to power and did want to dominate Europe. I repeat – the Nazis wanted to dominate Europe. Not all Germans, many of whom were opposed to Hitler. For example, people such as Willy Brandt fled the country and later became politicians in a peaceful, post-war West Germany.

Germany today is the largest country in the EU and therefore the biggest contributor, but it isn’t trying to dominate the continent. Any suggestion that it is amounts to the sort of disgraceful slur which you would expect to find in ‘The Daily Express’ or on a UKIP website. Germany appoints one EU commissioner, just like the other 27 countries, and the president is from Luxembourg, not Germany. There are 750 MEPs in the European Parliament, of which 96 are elected by Germany, hardly enough to dominate anything.

If scaremongering in 2016 about Nazi expansionism in the 1930s is the best that a Brexit supporter can come up with, then you’ve already lost the argument. On the other hand, it could be argued that there is something remarkable about 28 countries overcoming centuries of conflict and realising that if they stop fighting they’ll all be better off.
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Post by boatlady Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:33 am

a global financial crash which -------provided the conditions for extremism to flourish.


Seems to be the very conditions we have currently - reason enough, maybe, to maintain whatever peaceful alliances we can in the hope of stemming the tide of extremist thought.
Personally, I think we'd be mad to consider coming out of Europe at this point
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Post by Ivan Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:46 am

Redflag wrote:-
I would not give too much credence to Sturgeons claim that the majority of Scots want to stay within the EU Ivan
Nicola Sturgeon appears to be right. I’m reluctant to quote opinion polls after criticising another poster for over-reliance on them, but Professor John Curtice says: “There is no doubt: Scotland is markedly more pro-European, markedly more likely to say it's going to vote to remain, than is the UK as a whole”. He reckons the Remain side has a 12-14% lead in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35602861
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Post by Redflag Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:35 am

I am sorry boatlady that I seem to be the only one on CE that wants the UK to leave the EU, I can assure none of my reasons for leaving has anything to do with migration or immigration. The reason for big businesses wanting to stay is of course there profits and they have plenty of places to hide there money in off shore accounts.

Take one example of that which is La Gardes List it contained 100 names of people and businesses that withdrew there money out of Greece when they found out they would be forced to pay there correct amount of tax, and what did La Garde do with that List she put it in her safe instead of handing it over to the Greek gov't because they need to collect all tax that is due to help get them out of the hole that Greece found itself in because these people DO NOT WANT TO PAY TAX if it had not been leaked we would have never known about this FIDDLE.
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Post by Redflag Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:41 am

The Commissoiners are still unlected and more than likely they are the heads of big businesses & Corporations and they still tell the rest of us (entire EU) what laws we will HAVE to abide by with no redress to the Commissioners.
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Post by Redflag Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:51 am

I would not believe ONE WORD that comes out of Sturgeons gob, because she is looking for ANY reason to have another Independence referendum that is why SNP was set up in the beginning and there not called Tartan Tories for NOWT.
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Post by bobby Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:45 pm

Red, with respect, you have been solid in your support for Labour ever since you joined us, not only that but you have been a breath of fresh air in that you put your efforts where your mouth is. You have on many occasion told us of your fear of going back to the days of the workhouse, no NHS or Government help for the sick and needy. Why then do you now advocate Britain's only protection against those things becoming a reality?
Do you not think that if we end up on our own, without the protections given by the EU this rancid Tory Government will not immediately get rid of all of those benefits which includes employment protection and our human rights as both and much more will be taken from us.  
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