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The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

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Post by witchfinder Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Post by oftenwrong Tue May 17, 2016 7:31 pm

The principal query I have is to wonder why every spokesperson (without exception) on both sides of the Leave/Remain debate wants to frighten us into agreeing with them.

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Post by Ivan Sat May 21, 2016 9:43 am

Europe is the natural place for the UK to be

From an article by Michael Prest:-

EU membership has magnified the UK’s standing beyond what it might have been outside the EU. As new powers emerge, our relative decline in the world continues. Power is shifting. A rising nation such as China has much less in common with the UK than did the US when it assumed leadership of the western world after 1945. An assertive Russia seeks to divide and weaken Europe. A once prostrate Germany has reunited and is Europe’s most powerful economy.

President Obama and many of our friends believe that UK influence from the inside is vital for maintaining the desired balance of power in a Europe whose sovereign member countries have agreed to come together peacefully – the very opposite of hyperbolic comparisons with Hitler. Influencing from within is also the most effective way to promote another central UK foreign policy – to strengthen relationships based on shared values, notably democracy, freedom, human rights, equality and the rule of law. These values are mainly European in origin and are the EU’s moral core. The UK upholds these values, even gave birth to some of them. We are an integral part of the European tradition. Europe’s values are our values.

Far from the UK’s comparative economic health and political traditions being reasons to leave the EU now, they are more than ever reasons to stay in. Our national interest lies in continued EU membership, not in siren calls to “take back control”.


http://infacts.org/europe-natural-place-uk/
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Post by oftenwrong Sat May 21, 2016 7:33 pm

All very true, but on June 23 will the lumpen-proletariat simply choose to "save our jobs" and vote for a plucky Brittania once again facing the World alone (as in 1939)?

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 21 Thebattleofbritain_hero
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Post by Ivan Sun May 22, 2016 4:44 pm

The Brexit camp are becoming so desperate that their lies are becoming ever more blatant. If campaigning in a battlebus with the £350 million lie emblazoned on its side wasn’t bad enough, we have the likes of Nigel Lawson, Michael Gove and Penny Mordaunt being economical with the truth concerning Turkey’s application to join the EU.

Turkey applied to join what was then the EEC on 14 April 1987. Negotiations were started on 3 October 2005. Since then, out of 35 chapters necessary to complete the accession process, 15 have been opened and 1 has been closed. For Turkey to join the EU, it must reach accession criteria in all 35 areas – and even more importantly, all existing member countries must agree to it. Any one country could block Turkey’s membership, just as France under General de Gaulle twice vetoed Britain’s attempt to join in the 1960s. Currently, Germany is known to be opposed to Turkey’s accession.

Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker has said that no new country will join the EU this decade, and he is known to oppose Turkey’s membership. When more countries are considered for membership, Montenegro and Serbia will probably be first in the queue. Yet despite all of this, we’ve had Lawson trying to scare viewers of ‘Question Time’ by saying that 75 million Turks could descend on the UK (just like Farage’s 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians). Then we had Gove claiming that Turkey was “on course to join the EU”, with all those millions of people posing a threat to UK housing and wages. Now today Mordaunt, who is the armed forces minister, has said that the UK doesn’t have a veto on Turkish membership of the EU. It does. New members are decided by unanimity, so the UK or any other member country could block its accession.

I don’t think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU. Only 3% of its land mass and 10% of its population are located in Europe. It has a poor record on human rights and a dictatorial government that’s even worse than ours. It’s been wanting to join for 29 years and has so far made virtually no progress. It would only need one country to block its accession, and if history tells us anything that country could be Greece. This scaremongering from desperate right-wing Tories is despicable. I very much doubt if Turkey will ever be accepted into the EU.
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Post by Ivan Sun May 22, 2016 11:01 pm

The Leave campaign is doubling down on immigration because it has been so badly beaten up on the economy

From an article by Andrew Rawnsley:-

For a time, some Brexiters cited Norway as an example of the benefits of being outside the EU. But there was a snag with Norway because it has to contribute to the EU budget and has to accept freedom of movement in order to enjoy the benefits of access to the single market. So the Outers quit Norway and travelled further afield in search of a model that they could recommend to the British people. This journey around the globe has taken them to destinations as diverse as Canada, Peru and Hong Kong. None of them have stood up to scrutiny as a model for a post-EU future for Britain.

As a result, the Outers have now wound up in Albania. In a recent speech, Gove cited Albania’s trading arrangements as an example that a post-EU Britain could emulate. When the smartest guy on your team has to suggest a small and rather poor state in the Balkans as a model for Britain’s future, you really are in trouble. Especially when the Albanian PM then says that he wouldn’t recommend becoming Albania.

The Outers have also floundered on the economy because of the enormous imbalance of forces between the two sides of the argument. Risk warnings about the threat to trade, investment and jobs have been issued by everyone from the IMF to the OECD, from the CBI president to the TUC general secretary, from the Bank of England governor to the US president and the PM of Japan. By contrast, the Leave camp can put up Norman Lamont.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/15/nigel-farage-remain-leave-eu-referendum-tories
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Post by Ivan Tue May 24, 2016 12:29 pm

Vote Leave’s campaign of fear will cause lasting divisions

From an article by Polly Toynbee:-

There seems no depth to which the out campaign will not sink. Who would predict that urbane ‘modern’ Conservatives would plunge so fast into a Powellite gutter of racism that has not been seen in Westminster for decades? Frantic, reckless, ruthless, the leavers have nowhere to turn but xenophobia, trounced by the tsunami of warnings of a Brexit economic shock.

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 21 Turkey10

“Turkey is joining the EU,” says their poster, as they warn of a crime wave of homicidal, kidnapping, gunrunners. No, Turkey will not join the free-movement EU, not while Britain and 27 others hold a veto. But Gove and Johnson treat facts with Trump-scale disdain, claiming Turks, Albanians, Macedonians, Serbs and Montenegrins are poised to invade. As Penny Mordaunt lied boldly: “I don’t think the UK can stop Turkey joining”. Oh, yes we can, and so can the Poles, Hungarians, Austrians and other increasingly migrant-phobic countries the Vote Leavers urge us to resemble.

Gove says 5.2 million are coming here by 2020, causing 57% more A&E hospital admissions. It really doesn’t matter that it isn’t true. For their campaign, facts get in the way – they are contemptuously judging that their supporters won’t know the difference. Besides, the likes of IDS have form on ignoring evidence, repeating untruths about migrants on benefits despite rebukes from the UK Statistics Authority. Who cares? It works for persuading people that benefit recipients are cheats, so why not suggest more than 5 million Turks and Albanians are coming? This is the new fact-free politics of identity and emotion, bred in the internet vortex.


For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/23/vote-leave-campaign-fear-brexit-referendum
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Post by oftenwrong Tue May 24, 2016 5:12 pm

Each side in the campaign is calling the other one liars.

I agree with them.
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Post by Ivan Tue May 24, 2016 11:57 pm

And sometimes they call each other liars when they are on the same side..... Shocked

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Post by boatlady Wed May 25, 2016 8:36 am

I was talking yesterday with a volunteer at the office where I work - guy from Mozambique, who lived in South America for many years and has been involved in overseas development work in a 'fringe' sort of way.

He of course has no vote in the referendum and is consequently able to have a degree of objectivity. He was saying, if he was an English 'man in the street' he would react to the expensive bureaucracy and occasional corruption of the EU and on that basis would vote 'out' - he added that he thought that would be a mistake because the issue is in fact more complex than most of us are able to grasp - we agreed that having the referendum is probably just the government's way of absolving itself from responsibility for what is not guaranteed to be a positive decision either way.

We went on to have an interesting discussion about the tendency of large bureaucracies to take resources further and further away from where they can actually do any good - a tendency that is becoming more and more evident in today's society, where more and more effort seems to be expended to produce less and less positive result.

An interesting discussion, which I will be thinking about for a while -----
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Post by Ivan Thu May 26, 2016 10:31 pm

I’m not sure that having no vote in a contest gives you a degree of objectivity. I felt very involved with the Austrian presidential election and the prospect of a fascist being elected (especially as I’d have felt inclined to cancel my holiday in that country next month if Norbert Hofer had won), and I don’t feel very objective about the possibility of Trump winning in the USA.  Mad

The EU could certainly save money on bureaucracy (about €114m a year) if it stopped the ridiculous procedure of moving everything from Brussels to Strasbourg every month. 6,000 cases have to be packed up before being loaded on to eight large trucks and sent 440 kilometres (275 miles) – and then back again. They really ought to settle on one place for the EU Parliament, and having been to Brussels (just the once) and Strasbourg (at least six times), the choice ought to be a no-brainer. While stuck in the most appalling traffic in Brussels, I asked the taxi driver what there was to do there. He said: “Jump on a train and go to Bruges”.  Shocked

As to “the tendency of large bureaucracies to take resources further and further away from where they can actually do any good”, the EU recognises that with its principle of subsidiarity. It means that in all cases, the EU may only intervene if it is able to act more effectively than EU countries at their respective national or local levels. I don’t think the EU is any more corrupt than any other large organisation, and as 80% of the EU budget is spent in the member countries, the balance of probability is that any corruption occurs there rather than in Brussels (or Strasbourg).
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Post by Ivan Fri May 27, 2016 4:33 pm

From a speech by Ed Miliband:-

My argument begins with the most basic of all Labour principles. It unites Keir Hardie and Tony Blair, Clement Attlee and Jeremy Corbyn. At heart our principle as a party is one of collectivism: the idea that we achieve more together than we can alone. It says it on our party card. It is true in Britain as we think about our great achievements produced by collective struggle and collective advance: trade unions, workers’ rights, the NHS, the minimum wage.

And it has always been the case that we have applied that principle internationally too: from the Spanish civil war, to the fight against the Nazis, to post war reconstruction. But the unique thing about the 21st century is that this principle of international co-operation applies to so many more of the problems we face. The idea that we could confront the great causes of the 21st century outside the European Union is simply a fantasy. We can’t end centre-right austerity across Europe on our own. We can’t tackle climate change on our own. We can’t make companies pay their taxes on our own. We can’t solve the refugee crisis on our own.

We need to expose the real agenda of most of those who would leave – a direct route to a more unequal, unfair, unjust Britain. Where the little Englanders look at the channel and see a moat, Britain’s success has been built for centuries by those who saw not a moat but sea lanes, shipping, the means of bringing our peoples together not dividing them.


http://press.labour.org.uk/post/141483265099/vote-remain-the-only-route-to-a-fairer-britain
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Post by Ivan Sat May 28, 2016 3:49 pm

The daily scare tactics beggar belief – they’re not working

From an article by Delia Smith:-

We, the long-suffering British voters, are subjected to what Jon Snow on Channel 4 News rightly described as a “positively poisonous” campaign. The much-maligned European Union, which in essence is a group of democratic countries attempting to work alongside each other, has now become a fierce battleground in the direct line of fire of some vicious rhetoric. The most abhorrent and offensive of all was the EU being compared to Hitler and nazism. Isn’t there a crossed wire here somewhere? Was it not within that horrendous regime that the very idea of egotistical, xenophobic and isolationist sovereignty was originally conceived? We voters are just reduced to having a laugh. What else can you do when you are told there are 70 million Turks lining up, like the Zulus in the Stanley Baker film, coming over the hill, set on seizing our jobs, our homes, our lives.

Almost imperceptibly (but then again, perhaps also staring us in the face) is that the world, whether we like it or not, is slowly beginning to become a global community. Why have we now achieved so much in science or in say, space exploration? Because scientists from groups of nations work closely together. The same with advances in medicine and practically any other field of invention and progress. The global village is not some romantic dream, it’s a reality. It is our responsibility to help to prepare the way to a united humanity in the belief that it can make the world a better place. Evolution, as history has shown, will not be knocked off course by a small group of islands claiming they want “sovereignty”.


For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/the-daily-scare-tactics-beggar-belief-theyre-not-working
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Post by oftenwrong Sun May 29, 2016 5:37 pm

Without being panglossian about it, things aren't turning out too badly for Jeremy Corbyn's lofty detachment from the fray. (Despite Blair's urging him to move towards the Centre, and commit more vociferously to the "Remain" option.)

What we see is the two divisions in the Conservative Party flashing knives at each other like so many Sicilian bandits settling a blood feud. "Fifty" Tory MPs are reported to be ready to oust Cameron after June 23 whatever the result.



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Post by Ivan Tue May 31, 2016 12:02 am

What one of the Brexit leaders has said previously……  Rolling Eyes

Why are we so afraid of Turkey? We would be crazy to reject Turkey.” (Boris Johnson, February 2007)

The single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers.” (Boris Johnson, December 2012)

Most of our problems are not caused by Brussels. My ideal world is, we’re there, we’re in the EU, trying to make it better.” (Boris Johnson, May 2013)

Leaving would cause business uncertainty, while embroiling the government for years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems that have nothing to do with Europe.” (Boris Johnson, February 2016)
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Post by Ivan Tue May 31, 2016 4:19 pm

I wish I didn't have to talk to myself for most of the time on this thread, but here's a nice little analogy from Twitter which demonstrates the fundamental flaw in the idea of Brexit:-

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 21 Brexit11
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Post by boatlady Tue May 31, 2016 7:05 pm

Had a chat today with someone planning to vote 'out'
She told me she is sick of Brussells making all our laws - I explained Brussells doesn't make our laws but sets guidelines which can affect the legislation governments are able to pass. Explained that EU standards about the treatment of workers are amongst the laws she is upset about - asked how she'd feel if her boss didn't have to give her a break - she looked thoughtful
Then we moved on to the hordes of immigrants coming here taking our jobs and overloading our public services and taking advantage of our generous benefit system. I referred her to some facts - 50% of immigrants don't come from the EU so leaving the EU won't stop immigration; some enormous percentage of trained staff in the NHS are from abroad - we would have no health service if we relied solely on British staff; British benefits and public services are among the least generous and well funded in Europe
We went on to talk about Muslims, trying to impose their faith and their Sharia Law on British people, dominating whole neighbourhoods so that English people no longer feel at home - I suggested that if the likes of the BNP would stop gatecrashing mosques to spread their 'Christian' message, maybe the Muslims wouldn't feel they have to assert themselves so much - if we would stop bombing their homelands maybe they would feel more comfortable in British society.
We returned to the issue of British Laws for British people - she wasn't aware of the Tories' plan to repeal the Human Rights legislation and thus divorce the country from the European Convention on Human Rights in favour of their own version of human rights for the British - asked her if she really trusts Cameron et al to make laws that will protect the interests of people like her - she's looking very thoughtful now - thanks Ivan - without cutting edge I'd never have managed to marshal, that much of an argument 'on the hoof'
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Post by Chas Peeps Tue May 31, 2016 11:36 pm

As a Green Party activist, I've been watching the standard of debate on the EU Referendum descending into a Tory Party pantomime with increasing despair. I'm sticking my neck out and saying that every mainstream political party's members are split to some extent on this the biggest decision facing the country since the one we didn't get to make prior to Blair's invasion of Iraq. Yes, I'm informed that even a small number of UKIP voters are in favour of remaining in the EU. I'm still trying to get my head around that as well as many other UKIP policies and supporters. Greens have a very different perspective on politics in general to the mainstream and on the EU it is no different.

Although a party of the radical left, Greens want an end to unsustainable economic growth and a switch to a sustainable economy based on renewable energy, a fairer society, freedom of movement, political and economic decentralisation and localism and a libertarian state underpinned by workplace and human rights.

A lot of the Greens' economic objectives are contrary to those of the near neoliberal EU but then the complexion of the EU at any point in time is bound to reflect the current political centre of gravity of member state governments. That is presently Christian Democrat but edging towards UK Conservative style crony capitalism.

Most Greens want to remain in Europe because:
It provides a last ditch bulwark against crony capitalist governments in the UK elected by an unfair broken voting system
It requires a higher standard of environmental protection than any UK parties of the right would want
It provides a minimum standard on human rights, workplace rights and freedom of movement than any UK parties of the right would want
The EU, together arguably with NATO, has demonstrably kept a far greater level of peace between EU member states and their non EU neighbours since 1957

With all of these advantages for anyone on the libertarian left, I believe on balance we should remain in the EU but campaign tirelessly for a politically progressive Europe with our sister parties. Greens and anyone else can achieve a huge amount of positive change by changes they make to their individual choices and lifestyle, no matter what any reactionary government tries to impose. I am just as able to buy a bottle of milk from one of our local farms as from milk sourced from across the EU.

We must push the subsidiarity rule to its outer limit and be more bold in our interpretation of it to prevent EU laws creeping into every aspect of our national life without sufficient justification.

I am campaigning for a better EU and a better Europe but want no truck with any of the Old Etonians that would reduce this monumental decision to a game of British Bulldog in Eton's quadrangle.


Last edited by Chas Peeps on Tue May 31, 2016 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Minor spelling mistake. Small change to wording on parties of the right.)
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Post by astradt1 Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:43 am

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan shared a platform with cameron to push for a remain vote, now the media and some Labour leaders are saying that he should not have, pointing at the loss of Labour seats in Scotland after Miliband shared a platform with cameron during the Scottish Independence referendum.....

Was Khan right or wrong?.......
Will it make any difference his standing in the Labour Party among Labour voters?...........
Should Labour stay separate from the main Remain campaign....a bit like Ukips out campaign?

Given that cameron made claims about Khan being a terrorist sympathiser while baking goldsmith during the Mayoral Election campaign it perhaps shows that politicians have to do things they do not always agree with just to get their point across, or support a point of view they strongly agree with, in camerons case it was the Tory Party keeping control of London and in Khan case keeping Britain in Europe.......
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:47 pm

Pragmatism is what keeps politicians in business, and many other Nations have a government composed of an all-sorts coalition which is obliged to embrace a surprising width of opinions in order to govern. That's what results when you move away from our FPTP adversarial system.

Westminster really should think hard about that.
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Post by oftenwrong Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:41 am

Broadcasters have agreed not to quote an exit poll when voting closes on June 23rd at 10 p.m. so our anxieties will persist until the following morning. But that doesn't mean the pollsters have gone away. Here's a recent informal sampling of MSN:-


Poll Results

If the ‘Out’ campaign wins the Referendum, what would have been the main driver?

10% Control of our own laws

38% Control over immigration

2% Control over the economy

50% All of the above

(Total responses: 6,609 votes)
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Post by Ivan Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:54 pm

"Don't use that speech Boris, it's your one from February this year in favour of the EU and Remain."

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Post by oftenwrong Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:41 pm

If Boris wants to be PM he can no longer appear on the same platform as D Cameron Esq.

The same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, though his many unofficial advisors don't seem aware of any such impediment.
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Post by Ivan Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:05 am

The EU Referendum Will Determine Our Future

From an article by Bianca Jagger:-

Great Britain is my adopted home. I have deep affection for this nation — for its people, for its great tradition of liberalism, its commitment to justice and human rights. For its art, literature, theatre, music and film, its long record of ground-breaking scientific discoveries, its beautiful countryside, its NHS.

I watched in disbelief as some British leaders resorted to racist rhetoric in the lead-up to the referendum. Boris Johnson made a notorious comment about the EU in his interview with 'The Telegraph': “Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically...the EU is an attempt to do this by different methods.” A recent poster for the 'Leave' campaign, released on the eve of an England v Turkey football match, shrieked: “Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU”, warning Britain of an invasion of murderous, kidnapping, gunrunning Turks. Never mind that this is factually untrue, this has, increasingly, been the failsafe tactic of the 'Leave' campaign - xenophobic attempts to persuade British citizens that there is a marauding army of Eastern European and Turkish criminals poised to descend upon the UK.

Britain draws great strength from its relationship with Europe. To cut ourselves adrift from this common heritage with the EU - our economic, political and cultural ally - would weaken Britain and its place in the world. I fervently believe that the UK must remain in the EU if it is committed to being part of a better, more peaceful, more just, more diverse, more tolerant, more economically secure world.


For the whole article:-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bianca-jagger/the-eu-referendum-will-de_b_10143356.html
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Post by boatlady Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:34 am

About what I think
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Post by Ivan Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:41 pm

There’s nothing left-wing about being anti-EU

From an article by Richard Corbett MEP:-

"The core of the EU is the single European market. One reason that neo-liberals and right-wing Tories dislike it so much is that it has rules to protect consumers, workers and the environment. Common rules for the common market are essential; as socialists, we know the damage an unregulated free-for-all can do to the economy, to the environment, and to people. And the rules we already have may not be good enough, but they are still significant enough to send the right apoplectic.

Most of our key political choices remain entirely a national matter. How we organise education, healthcare, pensions, social security, income tax, devolution, housing, defence, and much else besides are scarcely touched by what we agree at EU level. This means that the key tools for building a fairer society (including, crucially, redistribution of wealth and the provision of universal public services) are decided at home, not in the EU.

But some important areas are decided at European level: consumer protection rules, many workplace rights, regulating multinationals, and environmental standards. The EU agenda includes measures to fight tax evasion and tax avoidance by companies that transfer profits to low tax jurisdictions, but our Tory government has shown a marked reluctance to agree to anything radical. Yet the potential is huge: a study by the Socialist Group in the European Parliament concluded that the total government revenue lost across Europe through tax evasion and avoidance is greater than all the budget deficits of all European countries.
"

For the whole article:-
http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/nothing-left-about-being-anti-eu/
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Post by TriMonk3y Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:46 pm

My ballot found its way to Correos today, and is currently winding its way back to Reino Unido hopefully a couple of weeks faster than me.

It's pretty clear from what I've said above in this thread which way I will have voted.

I can't agree with Richard Corbett though. The EU is not perfect. The EU/ECB/IMF treatment of the newly elected Syria government in Greece was appalling, as was some of the early TTIP content. It is not possible to separate the EU from it's Eurozone and the push for austerity over the last decade - and the nationalisation of private debt to commercial institutions on a scale never seen before. The EU has been complicit in all of that.

So I do see valid left-wing arguments for leave - but what I cannot understand is the left-wing argument for leaving now which can only result in 4 more years furtherance of the neoliberal project in the UK, of austerity, of nationalisations and privatisations timed to benefit institutional investors and not taxpayers, and a strengthened confident right wing.

I also believe that a better EU is possible. The EU is the product of its members. If we continue to elect from the right, then we cannot be surprised, much less complain, if Europe reflects that. So the first stage of making a better Europe has nothing to do with any of David Cameron's deal, and everything to do with electing a left-wing government here in the UK, in 4 years time.

So if we want a better Europe, it starts closer to home. It starts with breaking the near centre-right hold over the media, creating genuine and viable left leaning alternatives, deconstructing some of the pervasive and ugly right wing orthodoxies repeated ad hominem and unchallenged by the Daily Fail and their ilk. Until then the EU acts as a break on some of the excesses and guarantees rights in a legal system devoid of constitutional entrenchment of such rights. There can not be a left-wing argument for leaving the EU while we lean right at home.
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Post by Ivan Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:25 pm

Some extracts from one of the most sober and rational assessments that you’re likely to find of the issues involved in the EU referendum, written by Nicholas Barr of the LSE:-

Letter to friends: this is why I will vote Remain in the referendum

Free-trade agreements are mostly about goods (cars, chemicals) rather than services (insurance). The single European market is about both and therefore has harmonised regulations to avoid non-tariff barriers (e.g. different or incompatible regulations designed to make it hard to break into a domestic market). If the UK is not in the single market, trade in services will be damaged. That matters because only 10% of UK output is in manufacturing.

There is little dispute that leaving would create short-term losses. A Treasury report (BBC 23 May 2016) on the short-run effects suggests a recession, a view confirmed by the Institute for Fiscal Studies who point to the resulting increase in the budget deficit and argue that "It is unlikely that government would respond with bigger spending cuts and tax rises in the short run". More likely 'austerity' would be extended by another year (optimistic scenario) or two. There is also widespread agreement among economists that leaving would reduce economic growth over a longer time horizon, and that the loss could be large. How large a loss depends critically on which trade regime is in place after we leave.  

Someone misspoke on the radio, asking "Will you vote to stay in the UK?" – but was right. A vote to leave risks destabilising the UK through the possibility of a second Scottish referendum. There are also ramifications for the Irish peace process ('Financial Times', 28 April 2016), which depends crucially on both the UK and Irish Republic being members of the EU, with no border for people, goods or services.


For the whole of the letter:-
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/
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Post by Penderyn Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:15 pm

A very powerful reason for remaining in the EU is the quality of the rabble who want us to leave. Piss-ups in breweries would be so far beyond their capacities as to be unimaginable, and what's more they keep on making fatuous promises that - quite apart from total unlikelihood - a small minority in Parliament could never bring about. They are making promises like the conmen they are: they are simply the extreme right, and they want to make working people their slaves.
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Post by Ivan Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:32 pm

A lot of that rabble probably believe all of this:-

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Post by sickchip Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:14 pm

Why on earth is that odious self serving traitor, and closet Tory, Tony Blair being wheeled out to support the remain campaign? Aaaaaargh! It's enough to make a person vote Brexit.
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Post by Ivan Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:50 pm

The Brexit campaign in a nutshell

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Post by Ivan Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:19 am

sickchip. There are odious people in both camps. It’s probably better to think about which politicians you actually like (if any!) and see which side they’re on. The only Brexit supporter I have any time for is Dennis Skinner. Most of my favourites – such as Caroline Lucas, Jeremy Corbyn, Ed Miliband and John McDonnell – are for Remain.

I doubt if anyone actually “wheeled out” Tony Blair, and it isn’t possible to gag him if he wants to contribute. The points which he and John Major made about the constitutional implications of a Brexit for both Ireland and Scotland are very pertinent, but I doubt if anyone wants to listen to him these days.

What worries me is that many Labour supporters may be thinking that this referendum has little to do with them and is merely a squabble between two lots of Tories. The media use Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey as Labour Brexit supporters, but they are totally unrepresentative of the party; only 9 of the 232 Labour MPs are for Brexit. Some voters have been saying that they don’t know what Labour’s position is on the EU.

I think it was a mistake for Sadiq Khan to share a platform with Cameron (especially after all the abuse he received from him during the mayoral election campaign), because it doesn’t help to create a distinct Labour vision of a social EU. And sharing platforms with Tories didn’t work out too well for Labour after the Scottish independence referendum.
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Post by Penderyn Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:26 pm

Ivan wrote:sickchip. There are odious people in both camps. It’s probably better to think about which politicians you actually like (if any!) and see which side they’re on. The only Brexit supporter I have any time for is Dennis Skinner. Most of my favourites – such as Caroline Lucas, Jeremy Corbyn, Ed Miliband and John McDonnell – are for Remain.

I fear Dennis is getting old.   It comes to us all!
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Post by oftenwrong Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:51 pm

Politicians normally beware of the Law of unexpected consequences but in trying to deal with a split in the Tory Party, Cameron's unnecessary referendum looks like creating a split among the entire British electorate.
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Post by Ivan Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:39 am

Which would you rather, President Trump or Brexit?

Jonathan Freedland writes that it’s no contest:-

"What will be the consequences of Brexit? You don’t have to believe the Scottish nation is comprised solely of Brussels-crazed federalists to see that if a majority of Scottish voters vote remain while the UK votes leave, there will be new and surely unstoppable pressure for a second independence referendum. Scots will be asked to choose which union they’d rather be part of: a UK on its own, forged in the image of Nigel Farage, or an EU in which several small nations have flourished.

Less discussed is the impact on Northern Ireland. The rest of the UK is far too blithe about peace in that part of the world, bizarrely amnesiac about the 30-year war that claimed thousands of lives. The arrangements there are fragile and delicate. But Brexit would stomp all over them, suddenly transforming the boundary between Ireland’s north and south into a hard border between the EU and the UK. The cavalier assumption that this will have no impact on the precious, hard-won stability of that island is reckless – and all the more shocking coming from people who like to boast that they are patriots and unionists.

Then there is the near-certain economic gloom that will befall this country, an outcome so obvious when you take a step back and consider any country voluntarily giving up its right to trade on advantageous terms with a market of 500 million customers. Of course, the EU would do its best to prevent others following us out the door. It would obviously deny a post-Brexit Britain a trade deal on anything but the most awful terms, to prove that only those in the club can enjoy the club’s privileges.
"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/10/president-trump-brexit-which-worse-britain-votes-leave-hammer-blow-peace
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:07 pm

Yeah, but Britannia rules the waves, dunnit?  Time to show Johnny Foreigner who's Boss, innit?

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Post by sickchip Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:18 am

Yeah, but Britannia rules the waves, dunnit? Time to show Johnny Foreigner who's Boss, innit?


I see Brexit have a contingent of like minded people representing them out in Marsilles......a whole mob of Brexiteers running amok, fighting, and causing general mayhem.

A portrait of a Brexiteer: Bare-chested England fans sang songs about the IRA and German bombers being shot down as violence first broke out at around 6.20pm French time outside the Queen Victoria pub in the Old Port district.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: 'F*** off Europe, we're all voting out.' They also chanted: 'Sit down if you hate the French.'


Brexiteers, UKIP, and other right wing bigots: hiding their fascism, racism, and general bigotry under a guise of patriotism and national pride. I can only hope we remain in Europe and that over the next few decades the brand of divisive, inflammatory, bigoted views espoused by these people becomes recognised for being the outdated rantings of the dim-witted, and narrow minded.

If you do support Brexit take a look at the 'England' 'fans' causing trouble in Marseille; because that is exactly what you represent, and what you are.
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Post by oftenwrong Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:49 pm

I can't say whether Lord Bamford is an "England Fan", but here's a comment from today's Sunday Times. (Internet pay-barrier so no link):

Lord Bamford, JCB Chairman, makes fine earth-moving equipment but isn't at home digging into economic numbers.
Writing to staff explaining his Brexit vote he said "fifth-largest economy in the world" did not need to stay in the EU, which now has just 17% of global output.
He arrived at this by mixing two sets of data. Conventional GDP figures (which have the UK as the fifth-largest economy) show the EU as having nearly a quarter of the global GDP. Another set based on relative prices - so-called purchasing power parity - does show the EU at only 17% of global GDP but it shrinks Britain to only the tenth largest economy in the world.


Perhaps his wife could explain it to him, she runs the successful Daylesford Organics food empire.
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Post by Ivan Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:55 pm

There Is no progressive or left-wing case for Brexit

From an article by John Wight:-

Let’s be brutally frank. There is no viable left-wing, socialist, or progressive case for Britain leaving the EU - and certainly not in the current political and economic climate. What there is in truth is a campaign for Brexit that is dominated by the ugly far right politics of anti-immigration, xenophobia, and British nationalism. That section of the left that is also campaigning for Britain’s exit from the EU, basing their arguments on the anti-democratic nature of its institutions and its neoliberal economic orientation, not to mention increasing militarisation, is merely allowing itself to be recruited as an unwitting foot soldier for the right and far right to reveal a catastrophic collapse of judgment, if not principle.”

More details here:-
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/left-wing-brexit_b_9333604.html

So-called left-wingers who support Brexit will find that these charmers are in agreement with them:-

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Post by Chas Peeps Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:53 pm

In the 1970's and 80's, I believe there was a valid body of opinion on the left that the UK would be better off outside of the EEC (now EU) because at that time, it was all about business and there were few counter-balancing social charter type rules.

Greens were saying that the EU was causing products to travel further between producers and consumers, killing local markets and leading to higher carbon emissions as goods were transported over longer distances. All of this was true but a lot has changed over the past 30 years both in the UK and the wider EU.

The 'Overton Window' has shifted significantly towards the right in the UK while most EU countries' idea of a Conservative Party is still a Christian Democrat model believing in social cohesion, free collective bargaining and consensus infrastructure investment and provision. Our parties of the 'mainstream right', the Conservative Party flanked by UKIP, look more to US style Republicanism for their values, long having ditched any concessions to 'one nation' politics. This lurch to right in the UK, tolerated and left largely unchallenged by 13 years of Blairite Labour rule, has been accompanied by the breakdown of the two party system and the voting system that was designed for it. Labour's loss of Scottish MP's in 2015, combined with the surge in vote share for 'minor parties' saw the Conservative Party re-elected with the support of only 24% of the total electorate. Our own democracy is in crisis, an illegitimate Parliament and 760+ unelected Lords to provide the only restraint on tyrannical policies. Labour's loss of Scotland may be permanent and imminent boundary changes are thought to provide the Conservatives with an additional 20 seat advantage.

The democratic and looming constitutional crisis in the UK itself goes to the very heart of why those on the progressive left should not be tempted to join what has been cleverly presented as a popular uprising against the Establishment by the Leave campaigns. It is a trap set by the hard right and some on the left are walking right into it. The only time I would discourage a popular uprising is if the Peterloo Massacre is likely to follow. That is my judgement now. I'm all for a political uprising to overthrow the right but the timing and cause must be right. If the left must kick out at anything, it must be at the right wing forces who have not been weaker in a generation due to internal divisions over the EU. If we stay in the EU, we have a bedrock of human and worker rights and environmental protection to use as a firm foundation to strike at the real political enemy - the reactionary right that would have us shackled even tighter if we leave.
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Post by boatlady Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:02 pm

Chas Peeps - yes - just yes - very nicely put
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