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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:44 pm

The Remain cause perished on June 23rd 2016. It is History. Get over it
Do you think if the vote had been 52% in favour of Remain, the Leave campaigners would have "got over it"? We already know that Nigel Farage described such a possible outcome as "unfinished business". Imagine if that had been the result, and the government had decided to implement 'Hard Remain' and made plans to join the Schengen area and to adopt the euro! I don't think the Leave boneheads would have rolled over and accepted that, do you?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:51 pm

The crash in the pound punctures the delusion that Brexit Britain will flourish

Extracts from an article by Aditya Chakrabortty:-

"Delusional thinking helped tip Britain out of the EU: the promise of those sunlit uplands of £350m weekly cashback and thousands of trading opportunities. Three months later and delusional thinking remains rife. Take the helium-filled unreality of the Conservative conference in Birmingham. There, the top draws were the Brexiteers, Liam Fox and David Davis; men whose careers were lost down the political U-bend just two years ago were now the star turns. But even outside the ideological hothouse, both political and media classes are peddling wild over-estimations of the British economy’s strengths, and complete fantasies about its future.

Let’s have some ugly facts. First of all, the crash in the pound is a reminder that Britain does not pay its way in the world. It buys far more goods and services from other countries than it sells to them. What the pound’s weakness will chiefly achieve is to stop Britons buying as much. The resulting rise in inflation will really hurt those relying on benefits, such as child and working tax credits and jobseekers’ allowance, frozen by Osborne.

We have a Britain that doesn’t make things, that can’t pay its way in the world and where two generations have been brought up believing that what your wages won’t pay, your credit will buy. As the promises for Brexit are broken and people get poorer, as the consumerist model breaks down, who do you think will pay the price? Without Brussels, the right still has one set of scapegoats left. They number the Muslim woman in the headscarf, the Pole in the wrong kebab shop, and the African cleaner on the nightbus.
"

For the whole article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/crash-pound-delusion-brexit-britain-flourish
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:33 pm



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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:25 pm

Does "The Royal Prerogative" create a Queen Theresa I ?

Just askin'
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by TriMonk3y on Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:56 am

For a variety of reasons I seem to have spent the last 48 hours explaining the concept of parliamentary sovereignty to the same people that I spent much of the first half of this year explaining why all of the jurispudence in this area showed that parliament was, in fact, sovereign, who until now have been very happy about the return of its sovereignty which in fact was never lost.

Some abridgements from my responses to the trolling elsewhere:

Assertion 1 - We have no Written Constitution
That's not correct [redacted]. The uk has a constitution that is written in many places, just not all together, and not written at the same time or even from the same sources. In so far as that goes you could argue that it reflects perfectly the development of the uk legal system in general.

Assertion 2 - All part of some big europhile conspiracy
...800 years of constitutional law has produced 3 core principles. Parliamentary sovereignty, separation of powers and rule of law. A cursory glance at Wikipedia will confirm. Anyone with an even basic understanding of the subject would have expected today's outcome which strikes at two, maybe even all 3 of those principles. But hey, it doesn't fit your argument so it must be part of some great conspiracy.

Assertion 3 - Parliament handed over its sovereignty in the referendum
nonsense. The constitution is what it is. If you have a point of constitutional law to raise, feel free...

and some further commentary (from me) on the judgement itself
The fuller picture will be in the law reports, but I doubt they'll make it onto Westlaw before the appeal is heard...

As a narrow point of law does the executive require permission of parliament before revoking international treaty obligations ratified by parliament into domestic law? I'm pretty satisfied that it does. The specific terms - it will get what it is given or can bargain for, I see that as a separate matter.

So, for this, and fuller reasons, I'd be surprised to see the judgement overturned on appeal, and I think that government would be better off spending its time passing an act giving itself permission to invoke A50 than trying to assert its authority over parliament and overturn 800 years worth of uk constitutional law jurisprudence for political expediency and to suit the inner mechanisms of a conservative and unionist party very divided on the matter....

As a point of law the judgement is correct, and it doesn't surprise me. For what it's worth government should and could have legislated on this already. I did not and still do not want [brexit], but if we are going to do it then I'd rather we got it over with. It is a measure of how well the uk constitution adapts and evolves that we rarely have serious debates of about the constitutionality of the actions of the executive, but I think the verdict is both healthy and correct - as well as having been fairly predictable.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:38 pm

Well said - the popular reaction to this rather uncontroversial judgement serves only to show that most English people are woefully ignorant about how their country is governed.

As a person who voted to remain, my main concern now is to ensure that the terms of our exit are negotiated intelligently and with integrity for the best long-term outcome for the citizens of this country
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Penderyn on Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:38 pm

Now the US has gone fascist, surely those who were aiming at making us another Puerto Rico ought to allow us a new vote?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:41 pm

A different emphasis

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:18 am

"Leaked memo claims there is still no Government plan for Brexit"

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-plan-there-is-no-government-strategy-leaked-memo-reveals-10658080

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:25 pm

This was written by David Schneider for 'The Huffington Post':-


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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:17 am

Brexit vacillation, then Prison Officers' complaints ....

What was last year's buzz-phrase?  Oh yes, "Omnishambles".
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:47 pm

This is from a comments page in the FT:-


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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:29 pm



Source: Twitter
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:49 pm

Boris Johnson is a clown who has united the EU against Britain

From an article by Jean Quatremer:-

Britain can be proud of itself. Once again, it had already shown the world the way. In propelling Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage to triumph on 23 June, it demonstrated well before 8 November that Donald Trump was nothing new. In fact foolishness, vulgarity, inconsistency and irresponsibility seem actually to be British inventions that have been painstakingly copied – once more – by the Americans.

The hour of the political clown has come. In a few short weeks, Boris Johnson, the former journalist for whom facts were never an obstacle likely to get in the way of a good story, has succeeded in squandering what little sympathy and understanding was left in Europe for a UK embroiled in the mess of this referendum. It is quite some diplomatic achievement to have succeeded in uniting the 27 remaining members of the EU, who are all now firmly together in deciding to do the UK no favours whatsoever. It will be a 'hard Brexit', not because that is what Theresa May wants, but because her future ex-partners consider they have no choice faced with a UK so resolutely indecisive.

Johnson has displayed his complete ignorance of the union (perhaps not altogether surprising if you knew him as a 'journalist' in Brussels, as I did). According to his very personal interpretation of the European treaties, it is “bollocks” to say that the four fundamental freedoms (free movement of people, goods, services and capital) are inseparable. Yet the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, warned him: “We’ll happily send Her Majesty’s foreign minister a copy of the Lisbon Treaty. At a pinch, I can talk about it in English.”


For the whole article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/25/boris-johnson-clown-eu-britain-foreign-secretary
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:37 pm

Today's cartoon in The Guardian shows the BoJo/Davies/Fox triumvirate dressed as "Minder" style London spivs. What can it mean?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:52 pm

This was Martin Rowson's cartoon for 'The Guardian' yesterday....


https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:19 pm

The latest Tory government contradiction: last week Michael Fallon said that the UK will block EU defence co-operation, this week Boris Johnson says it won't.........   Rolling Eyes


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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:21 pm

Written by David Schneider:-


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MPs hand Brexit to May

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:27 am

There has been plenty of mute evidence that the May government has no idea how to handle the hot potato of Brexit which a mutinous Public dropped in Cameron's lap last June.

Now we see that few others in Parliament have any notion either.  Most of the PLP voted in favour of the May proposal yesterday.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:31 pm

UK firms 'face more, not less, red tape if Britain exits customs union'

From an article by Alexandra Topping and Peter Walker:-

UK businesses will have to deal with 60m more pieces of paperwork each year if Britain leaves the customs union as it departs the EU, according to research from a group campaigning to keep trade links with the bloc after Brexit. According to Open Britain, a hard Brexit could spark an “avalanche of paperwork” if thousands of importing and exporting businesses were forced to fill out similar forms to those required in moving goods and services beyond the union.

The claim comes as the government faces another potential legal challenge to its Brexit plans, this time from two campaigners who are seeking a judicial review in the High Court to keep Britain in the single market. Under the EU customs union, which deals with rules relating to trade, unified tariffs are levied on imports to the whole area, meaning no new charges or associated paperwork are needed for goods shipped between members.

According to Open Britain, customs data shows that last year the UK made 70.5m import declarations and 6.5m export declarations over trade in non-EU goods. The group says that if leaving the customs union involved a similar level of customs paperwork, it would require businesses to complete more than 45m import declarations and 15m export declarations every year. This contradicts the arguments of pro-Brexit campaigners made before the June referendum, namely that leaving the EU would save businesses from EU-related bureaucracy.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/11/uk-firms-face-more-not-less-red-tape-if-britain-exits-customs-union
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Brexit means Brexit, or at least until May can find an excuse to scrap it.

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:30 pm

A contrary view:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/a-brexit-betrayal-is-coming-%e2%80%93-but-who-will-get-the-blame/ar-AAluFhM?li=BBx1bGE&ocid=iehp
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:55 pm

"Brexit in a single shot. Theresa May stood awkwardly in the middle of the room while EU leaders chattered and embraced, apparently oblivious to her presence."


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/dec/15/theresa-may-cuts-a-lonely-figure-at-eu-summit-video
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:40 am

That is so embarrassing - usually, at these affairs, the politicians at least pretend to like each other
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:29 am

boatlady wrote:....politicians at least pretend to like each other



"Your tie needs to be tighter, Sir."
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:45 pm

at least they were looking in Farage's general direction - all Theresa saw were backs turned
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:26 pm

Theresa May obviously did some commercial stuff in her student days...

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:17 pm

lol! rofl
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:39 pm

Two shillings and tenpence. Theresa May wouldn't be able to buy much deodorant for 14p today.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:30 am

O tempora! O mores!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by sickchip on Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:53 pm

37% of the electorate vote to leave and that is interpreted by this government, and other mps, as an indication that the mood of the country is to leave the EU.

Stupid government. Stupid mps. Stupid electorate. Stupid UK.

A nation of idiots governed by idiots.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:23 pm

24% voted for a Tory government - it's all in how you count them - stupid system
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:17 pm

The left must hold Leavers to account for their broken promises

From an article by Chuka Umunna:-

"The last six months have been characterised by broken promises, cold reality contrasting with their blithe assurances, and an arrogant belief that the British people have forgotten about the pledges made during the Brexit campaign.

Vote Leave’s most visible promise was to spend £350m more a week on the NHS. It bears repeating that five current cabinet ministers, along with many other mostly Conservative MPs, looked the British people in the eye and promised them a huge funding boost for our cash-strapped NHS. They cannot wriggle out of this. Since the referendum, the PM has failed to commit to the promise, which did not provoke a word of protest from her pro-Brexit ministers. The OBR has forecast a £58.7bn black hole in the public finances which is directly attributable to Brexit. The chancellor ignored the wishes of thousands of people who called on him to use the autumn statement to commit to the promise once Britain leaves.

Both Leave and Remain voters will rightly be angered by this betrayal. This may be the age of post-truth politics, but we are not going to forget such a visible promise. Focus groups suggest that the biggest disappointment for voters in the aftermath of the autumn statement has been the failure to spend any more money on the NHS. They need to be held to account for it
."

For the whole article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/left-must-hold-leavers-account-their-broken-promises
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:47 pm

I have a clear sense that most Brexiteers won't care a jot about what pre-referendum promises are broken in respect of the NHS - or many other assertions which were made on the 'Leave' side.

They will, however, be exercised by any perceived retreat from what they believe was a pledge to 'halt immigration' ( their most prized aspiration) and, thereby, to 'take control of our borders'. The problem many may have in dealing with their supposed 'triumph' will be not seeing all those 'dreadful foreigners' deported and the sight of some actually still coming in. Any such blow to their rabid hopes will almost certainly be met by cries of 'betrayal' and they will probably be led by the rubber-faced idiot Farage and his singularly unattractive sidekick Nuttall in that respect.

How sad that so many of the Brexit Brigade were Labour supporters, who should have known better than to give comfort to their natural  knuckle-dragging opponents over an issue which split the Tories for so long.

We all know that leaving the EU won't bring a fraction of the many 'benefits' claimed by the sneering xenophobes, racists and miscellaneous malcontents and we can be sure that they will continue to blame those who took a contrary view for their dreams remaining unfulfilled. The further Labour stays away from that  firing line the better...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:10 pm

Mrs May says she will come up with a deal that will please both the 52% and the 48%. What arrant nonsense! The only thing which will satisfy the 48% is if we stay in the EU, no other deal could match the benefits which we currently enjoy.

Only 9 of the 232 Labour MPs were Brexit supporters, along with around 35% of Labour voters. A majority of Labour constituencies voted to leave, but of course not all people in Labour constituencies are Labour voters. In a great number of constituencies, the elected MP - from whatever party - doesn’t have a majority of the votes, they just happen to have come first!

It was sad that one of our more prolific posters, who opted for leave and then tried and failed again and again to justify her stance on these boards, rushed off to Twitter in a fit of pique shouting “censorship” (even though all of her posts remain visible to this day), before trying to damage this forum by tweeting a fake header which someone must have made for her. Let's hope that she's proud of herself after helping to legitimise bigotry and racism.

I regularly defend Jeremy Corbyn’s right to lead Labour after securing two overwhelming majorities, and his views wouldn’t be considered ‘extreme’ in Scandinavia today (and wouldn’t have been in 1970s Britain), but I do think he’s wrong not to take a principled stand against Brexit. Leaving the EU is a disastrous idea for everyone, and especially for young people, and if you know something is wrong you should oppose it hook, line and sinker and damn the consequences.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:32 pm

The persistent irritant is that a majority of the British public voted to leave the EU, which makes any democratically justifiable argument for seeking to avoid Brexit a difficult one. As a nation, we knew upon having the opportunity to vote what the score was - and we blew it...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:41 pm

I share your discomfort about Corbyn not strongly coming out against Brexit - I suspect the Labour message might be a bit clearer if he did.

I'm aware he doesn't really feel the EU is a good thing - and I'm sure, like many large institutions, it is riddled with all kinds of problems - but as far as I can see, at present the alternative is unthinkable - I've never had a conversation with a Leaver where I felt they had really considered more than a very narrow angle on the issue (usually the one about immigration) and to my mind the potential pitfalls are dreadful and will ruin the country.

To say a majority voted for Brexit is an oversimplification in my view - certainly a small majority of those who voted did vote Leave - but there is a significant number who, for whatever reason, did not exercise their franchise - it may be that a majority in the country actually want to stay in the EU, or at least want some clearer idea about how the world would look post-Brexit before finally deciding.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:15 pm

I tell you I had nothing to do with any of that Brexit nonsense!

© Telegraph
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:27 pm

Written by David Schneider for @huffpostukcom:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1VoroJWgAEJ2_z.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:00 am

lol!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:47 pm

It would be funny if only it didn't describe the position perfectly...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:18 am

The nation is divided into supporters of Conspiracy Theory, and advocates of the Cock-up explanation for political decisions.

Either might apply to the Brexit decision of voters last June, but Theresa May's administration seems content to run with the ball for so long as they continue to enjoy possession.
 
We are being expertly brainwashed to accept the proposition that goods can only get more expensive at the same time that wages are held at the same level.  The objective of those in government such as BoJo and Brer Fox is to advertise Britain to foreign investors as a low-wage economy.  Like Poland and similar EU members formerly on the Communist side of the Iron Curtain.
We're all coolies now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolie
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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