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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:18 am

The nation is divided into supporters of Conspiracy Theory, and advocates of the Cock-up explanation for political decisions.

Either might apply to the Brexit decision of voters last June, but Theresa May's administration seems content to run with the ball for so long as they continue to enjoy possession.
 
We are being expertly brainwashed to accept the proposition that goods can only get more expensive at the same time that wages are held at the same level.  The objective of those in government such as BoJo and Brer Fox is to advertise Britain to foreign investors as a low-wage economy.  Like Poland and similar EU members formerly on the Communist side of the Iron Curtain.
We're all coolies now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolie

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:18 am

I can’t reach out to Brexiters anymore - they're destroying this country

From an article by Frank Owen (a university lecturer working under a pseudonym):-

"I'm not sure what's been worst about the Brexit process so far. The inability of the PM to be direct, or transparent, with the country; the laughably low quality of cabinet ministers central to the task - a laughter that always rings hollow, given we are now represented on the world stage by a serial liar and buffoon; the continual rhetorical attacks on key British values and institutions by the now-victorious Leavers; the endless, mindless demands for empty-headed positivity by people who never cared, or knew, about the colossal damage Brexit would cause; or the fact that the country is going to make itself poorer, smaller, less tolerant, weaker, a pitiful stunted lump of a thing, because people were upset that they once heard Polish being spoken on a bus.

Worst of all is the overblown hand-wringing insincerity of people who call themselves 'Liberal Leavers'. There was never going to be a Liberal Brexit - they were mere gloss, a coating of faint respectability on a project dominated by populists, nativists and the downright rotten of British politics. Having indulged a project whose logical conclusion was the erection of trade barriers between the UK and its largest single export market, they bleat that free trade must be defended. After a campaign in which a British MP was murdered by a far-right terrorist motivated by anti-immigration sentiment, a sentiment stoked up by those same individuals and institutions that campaigned for Leave alongside the 'Liberal Leavers', they have been pitifully silent in the face of the surge of hatred on our streets. Every day since June 23rd last year has affirmed to me that Brexit is the wrong choice for Britain
."

For the whole article:-
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/01/12/i-can-t-reach-out-to-brexiters-anymore-they-re-destroying-th
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:01 pm

I feel his pain
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Theresa May says she will take UK into the hardest of Brexits if Brussels and MPs do not back her plan

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:18 am

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-says-she-will-take-uk-into-the-hardest-of-brexits-if-brussels-and-mps-do-not-back-her-plan/ar-AAlXC0r?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=iehp


"The story and metaphor of The Dog in the Manger derives from an old Greek fable which has been transmitted in several different versions. Interpreted variously over the centuries, the metaphor is now used to speak of those who spitefully prevent others from having something that they themselves have no use for."


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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:36 pm

that, exactly
In fact, spite has been the consistent feature of all the policies enacted by the Tory government since 2010 - you'd think people would catch on
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:55 pm

I confess to a high degree of gloom at present.

I anticipate a fairly long period of Daily Mail-driven high praise for Theresa May during which all pronouncements and plans emanating from her and her Brexit cronies will be hailed as master-strokes ( however damaging and abysmal they might be ) while the gleeful Leavers of the nation regale us with their misplaced triumphalism.

Any opposition will be jeered at roundly and coherent arguments or facts challenging the over-blown hyperbole of the 'victors' will be denied out of hand by a Press all-too-eager to fuel the anti-foreigner feeling to which so many of the foolish ( and knuckle-dragging) public have signed up.

Any obvious 'defeats' in negotiation will be called heroic refusals to bow to the will of the EU and the spiral of denial of any downturn of the nation's wellbeing will become a feature of a society which will start to resemble North Korea as a compliant print media demands the daily worship of the Prime Minister.

Please tell me that I'm wrong...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:03 pm

Would like to tell you you're wrong Phil (you so often are) but on this occasion I'm sort of sharing your pain - fully expect to die in a nuclear holocaust courtesy of Donald Trump or on a hospital trolley in an oversubscribed A&E courtesy of our own government.

Unless people start to pay attention and follow some ethical principles and force their governments to do so - we may, as a species, be doomed.

Meanwhile, I'll just keep on trying to help people to survive
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:53 pm

"...you're wrong Phil (you so often are)..."

Very Happy Now, now boatlady, I refuse to be swayed by compliments...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:54 pm

sunny lol! flower
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:18 pm

Such a disappointment to hear today that those lovely people in the 匯豐銀行 HSBC Bank are moving to Paris.
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European Research Group (ERG)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:06 pm

The Times has pulled back a bit of the curtain hiding the REAL Brexit mechanics:

Members of the European Research Group include Suella Fernandes, Dominic Raab, its leader Steve Baker, and Theresa Villiers, who are having an increasing influence on the government.
While its primary aim is to stop a soft Brexit, it has also chosen to act as the praetorian guard for Mrs May, in the hope that its loyalty will be rewarded. When The Times reported that Deloitte, the management consultant, was warning of Brexit chaos in Whitehall, ERG members attacked the firm and all those who reported what it said.

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Blair Brexit re-entry

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:19 pm

Left-leaning supporters have an opportunity to become neighbours of Tony and Cherie in Connaught Square W2 by purchase of a 3500 square ft. home adjacent, on the market for £7.5million.  (24-hour Security guaranteed by Met Police.)  Enquiries to KayandCo.com 020 7262 2030.  Just ask to borrow a cup of sugar once you've moved in, and get info from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:25 pm



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5vDzIDXMAEK3eL.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:15 pm

What the scientist and author Richard Dawkins had to say about Brexit in a ‘BBC Newsnight’ video

"Constitutional amendments are – or should be – hard to achieve. In America, it takes a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress. It’s easy to see why the bar is set so high. Unlike ordinary lawmaking, constitutional changes are for keeps."

"We have no right to condemn future generations to abide, irrevocably, by the transient whim of the present."

"Cameron handed over this massively important decision to a simple majority of ill-informed voters. The fleeting opinion, on just one day, of a slender majority of an ignorant and misled public is now touted as the sacred and unchangeable word of ‘the British people’. Not just for the next five years, as in an ordinary election, but long after we are no longer around to reap the consequences.
"

https://www.indy100.com/article/richard-dawkins-brexit-referendum-vote-david-cameron-ukip-7623061
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:31 pm

Hard Brexit could cost Spain €1bn, leaked report says

A hard Brexit could cost the Spanish economy €1bn (£870m) in lost exports and have “innumerable repercussions” for the 800,000 Britons who live in Spain and the 300,000 Spaniards in the UK, according to a leaked Madrid report.

The paper goes on to suggest Brexit will have an impact on Gibraltar, migration policy, agriculture, universities “and could affect Spanish footballers in the UK”. Britons constitute the third largest national foreign group living in Spain after Romanians and Moroccans.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/10/hard-brexit-could-cost-spain-1bn-leaked-report-says

This was written by a gentleman named Mark Kent in the comments section underneath that article:-

"The positives of Brexit are:-
1. British and American currency traders made millions on the collapse of the pound.
2. EU27 gain car factories and finance houses from the UK.
3. EU27 get their doctors and nurses back.
4. EU27 get their abattoir vets back.
5. Oxford University is opening in France, others are likely to follow.
6. Express, Mail, Telegraph and Sun/Times still get to pay no tax in the UK, while waving the 'pro-British' banner to stupid people.
7. Theresa May gets to be PM without an election.
8. Jeremy Corbyn gets to support the Tories.
9. Spain gets rid of millions of British retirees (who were not allowed to vote in the referendum, obviously).
10. Britain gets an increase in retired people back from Spain who need housing and health care.
11. EU27 get to charge tariffs on British goods, ranging from 5% to 150% depending on what they are.
12. EU27 don't have to put up with British citizens living, working, retiring and studying in their countries any more.
13. EU27 can form their united defence force as Britain will no longer be able to stop them.
I could go on, but that's probably enough, don't you think? How much good news can anyone cope with?
"
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:29 am

.... and Trump's food processing manufacturers will be able to send us their hormone-plumped meat alongside GM-modified everything else.

Where's the beef?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:05 am



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6lZmxWWcAEVyga.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:50 am

Certainly wouldn't dispute any of the above facts, Ivan - but have you tried telling all this to someone who is pro-Brexit?
I guarantee mostly they are fact-immune - it's not about facts, it's about feelings
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:37 pm

Oh, dear. Some Little Englanders are likely to become very, very disappointed.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:43 pm

The Brexit fanatics are at the helm, but don’t despair - this is not over

From an article by Polly Toynbee:-

"The way is clear for Theresa May to plunge the country into a self-destructive journey into thickets of the unknown. This will be her legacy, her hand the one that risked breaking the economy and breaking the United Kingdom too.

Look what’s been unleashed. Nicola Sturgeon leaps at the chance, making a hard border along a new Hadrian’s wall a frightening possibility, along with a Trump-fence across Ireland, or Northern Ireland gone altogether. May likes regal comparisons – and Bloody Mary she may be if, through inept intransigence, Edinburgh ends up carved on her heart, with nothing left but a bereft little England, Wales limping alongside, cutting a bedraggled figure in the world.

She had choices: she may yet be devoured by the hard Brexit tiger she has chosen to ride. She could have taken a softer, more pragmatic path of moderation, compromise and neighbourliness, mindful of her country’s other 48%. The letter she sends to sever our 44-year alliance could open in a spirit of generosity by welcoming our existing European Union citizens, but instead she sets out grim-faced, ungiving.

She has handed the helm to the wreckers, on a fanatics’ mission that will allow no swerving to avoid the rocks. Only the hardest of Brexits will do, yet even that’s not enough for these insatiables. Battle-hardened revolutionaries who have fought this eccentric cause for decades can’t lay down their guns, even though they won: the likes of Iain Duncan Smith, John Redwood and Liam Fox can only do politics as guerrilla fighters.
"

For the rest of the article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/brexit-fanatics-eu-negotiations-reckless-prime-minister
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:26 pm

A Scots woman interviewed on BBC Radio 4 at lunchtime said something which may resonate with a lot of voters:

"I find it easier to trust the EU's words than anything which is coming out of Westminster."

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:18 pm

Me too - the EU reps, when they have spoken, sound like grown-ups - I always prefer a grown-up myself
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:34 pm

Brexit secretary David Davis admits he has no idea how 'no deal' will impact Britain

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-secretary-david-davis-deal-10030198



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Crisis? What crisis?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:29 am

Brexit Minister David Davis was reported to have been unconcerned at a meeting of business leaders when it was put to him that hard Brexit could cause the loss of 75,000 jobs in the City of London. Those attending said he ‘didn’t seem fazed’ by the suggestion of tens of thousands of UK jobs being lost.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:43 am

I imagine, whatever the fallout, he'll be OK - so why worry?

After all, it's not like he's responsible for the welfare of the country, is he? or accountable, or anything?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:26 am

If you read some of his exchanges with Hilary Benn on our ‘favourite tweets’ thread, you will soon realise that, as well as being complacent, David Davis really is as thick as he looks.

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t319p680-favourite-tweets

Leaving the single market means we will have to pay tariffs and we will lose our freedom of movement, not to mention the fact that the UK is already having difficulty attracting key workers.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C64dvJ8XAAA3Cwn.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:14 pm

Has anybody else seen this map?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:54 pm

Hadn't seen the actual map - but I'm not surprised - it doesn't look good
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:12 pm

This week, Theresa May will fire the starting-gun on British withdrawal from the EU, and probably in so doing will shoot our British economy in the foot, but never mind - there is a new acronym for us to remember now, Dexeu. Pure civil-service-speak, so what do you think it actually stands for?

(Department for ....... ... ........ ..... )
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:32 pm

This editorial is, in my opinion, a brilliant account of the insanity of Brexit and the bleak future which beckons for the UK. I've posted below the first part, I think it's well worth reading the rest of it.

'The Observer' view on triggering article 50

"Like sheep, the British people, regardless of whether they support Brexit, are being herded off a cliff, duped and misled by the most irresponsible, least trustworthy government in living memory. The moment when article 50 is triggered, signalling Britain’s irreversible decision to quit the EU, approaches inexorably. This week the UK will throw into jeopardy the achievements of 60 years of unparalleled European peace, security and prosperity from which it has greatly benefited. And for what?

The ultra-hard Tory Brexit break with Europe that is now seen as the most likely outcome when the two-year negotiation concludes is the peacetime equivalent of the ignominious retreat from Dunkirk. It is a national catastrophe by any measure. It is a historic error. And Theresa May, figuratively waving the cross of St George atop the white cliffs of Dover like a tone-deaf parody of Vera Lynn, will be remembered as the principal author of the debacle. This is not liberation, as UKIP argues, nor even a fresh start. It is a reckless, foolhardy leap into the unknown and the prelude, perhaps, to what the existentialist writer Albert Camus described in 'La chute' – a fall from grace, in every conceivable sense.

The hard Tory Brexit in prospect represents an epic act of self-harm. A more enlightened Tory PM, less in thrall to Little Englanders, and less intimidated by the peculiarly vicious and Manichaean worldview of 'The Daily Mail', would have taken a more consensual approach. Yet despite her promises when she became PM, May has failed to heal the divisions caused by Brexit.
"

For the whole editorial:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/26/observer-editorial-triggering-of-article-50-jeopardises-60-years-of-unparalleled-peace
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:24 pm

Is Theresa May negotiating for YOU? She is most certainly not voting for Scottish interests, and Belfast seems to be shaping up for a United Ireland within the Eurozone. Wales seems to feel itself the poor relation of a wealthy family, so just who is represented by the current administration?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:39 pm

It should not be forgotten that Corbyn insisted by way of a three-line whip that Labour support was given to the government to pursue this farce.

Accordingly, whatever dog's dinner is eventually wheeled out , he will be up to his neck in it when the blame is apportioned.

Remember those golden days when an Opposition actually opposed stuff...?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:51 pm

I think Labour opposing in this case would have lost the vote so I suspect your point may be academic
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:14 pm

That old-fashioned notion of respecting the result of a plebiscite.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:06 am

Most people I encounter who voted to leave continue to feel and think the same - I suspect another referendum might yield a similar result.

I'm finding it really tough being on the wrong side in this argument - have even received some abuse online for arguing against Brexit.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:31 pm

I suspect another referendum might yield a similar result.
I'm not so sure......

Theresa May faces public backlash over hard Brexit, poll finds

Just 35% of British public in new ICM survey would back Britain leaving the EU without agreement with other states. Of the 54% of people who opposed the government’s position, 34% said May should continue negotiating. A further 20% backed halting the process pending a second referendum on the terms of the deal, an option backed by the Lib Dems and a cross-party group of MPs including the Labour MPs David Lammy, Heidi Alexander and Ben Bradshaw, as well as the Green Party leader, Caroline Lucas.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/11/theresa-may-hard-brexit-public-backlash-icm-poll
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:32 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:-
Corbyn insisted by way of a three-line whip that Labour support was given to the government to pursue this farce. Accordingly, whatever dog's dinner is eventually wheeled out , he will be up to his neck in it when the blame is apportioned.
That is so true.

If I owned a black tie I would wear it all day tomorrow. Triggering Article 50 to leave the EU is the most absurd decision that any PM has taken since Churchill approved Mountbatten’s crackpot plan to attack Dieppe in 1942, with the intention of holding it for just one day. It didn't succeed, and 3,367 men were either killed, wounded or captured, the RAF lost 106 aircraft, and the Royal Navy lost 33 landing craft and one destroyer. Eden's invasion of Suez in 1956 was almost as stupid, but that’s another story…..

Cameron agreed to hold the EU referendum because he was too weak to stand up to the rabid right of the Tory Party, and because he was scared of his MPs, party members and voters switching their allegiance to UKIP. We know how that turned out, both for his career and for the future of the UK. Now Corbyn, in what appeared to be a lose-lose situation, has in my opinion shot himself in the foot for similar reasons. He was no doubt afraid of being accused of ignoring the so-called “will of the people”, and also of losing Labour Brexit supporters to UKIP, even though that grubby little outfit appears to be a busted flush. So he handed May a blank cheque to trigger Article 50, even imposing a three-line whip on Labour MPs, regardless of how their individual constituencies voted. As a result 11,000 people have left the party in the last four weeks, most giving their reason as the party's stance on Brexit.

Whatever decision Corbyn had taken over this was bound to have negative consequences in the short term. However, if he had stuck to the party’s policy of being pro-EU, which most MPs, members and voters support, Labour couldn’t have been accused of complicity in Brexit when it dawns on people what a disastrous decision it has been. Perhaps I will go out and buy a black tie.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:30 pm

Perhaps I will go out and buy....

.. absolutely anything you consider to be essential. The devalued Pound means everything imported henceforth will cost about 15% more than it did before June of last year.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:41 pm

The Independent reminds us of four problems which are now becoming worse:

https://www.indy100.com/article/four-things-you-missed-while-brexit-was-happening-theresa-may-london-7656651?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:59 pm

Revealed: the central planks of the UK government’s Brexit strategy....... Evil or Very Mad


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8KmrP-UQAAfsoE.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:56 pm



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8MhJERXkAEEInx.jpg
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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